1,982 Responses

1. Gretchen, it has sadly been too long since I’ve been here. But girl, your voice has just gotten stronger and more amazing. I love the way you get your points across.

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   1. Thank you my friend! And no worries about not being here much, it’s been slow going with the blog posts lately! Can’t wait to see what you’re cooking up… new book maybe?

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      1. Eventually yes! Since the summer, I have really been neglecting my own writing. I’ve been doing some freelance work for other people, but I’m ready to get back to my own stuff! It’s been almost three months since I’ve published a blog post. That just feels icky to me.

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         1. Oooohhh, freelance. At least you have good reason to not be blogging. I hit a writing road block (of my own making) and now I’m doing NaNoWriMo so the blogging is taking a backseat for the short term. And not posting here does feel icky to me. It’s like I forgot to feed my fish. Or something that doesn’t sound quite so silly…

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   2. Bladderflap!

      My lie/exaggeration detector went off several times during the reading of the article-comment.
      I think you lie to us when you tell us that every single time you’ve written on this matter others write in to diminish the supposed importance of your statement.

      While others sometimes fall in love with the sound of their own voice, it appears that you’ve fallen hopelessly for your own word collections.
      There’s a power to being succinct.

      I agree with the male who wrote in pointing out that males have to bend over for females too…and always have.

      Your accounting of today’s world is strongly slanted.
      Don’t you care to be fair and balanced at all?
      Phooey. May your eyeglasses be repaired.

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      1. Is this meant to be irony?

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      2. There’s the writer’s “every single time” confirmed for this particular article. Check.

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         1. EXACTLY.

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         2. seriously. I couldn’t even believe what I was reading. Dan Lewis I hope that’s satire.

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      3. I’m giggling that the thing you’re taking issue with is that first statement. That I get the “you’re making a big deal out of nothing” type of response. Out of this whole looooong post, that’s what you take issue with? Sadly, it happens every time. I write about these things quite often. I’m part of a Feminist Friday Writer’s Group and it happens to them as well (the group includes a few men as well). It happens whether it’s in my writing or real life discussions or even on social media. It happens.

         As for brevity? Never been my strong suit. Sorry. If succinct is what you’re looking for you won’t find it here. My style of writing is LongForm. There are the short form writers, the Six Sentence Story writers, the listicle writers. I’m Long Form. It’s not the sound of my voice I like, it’s the need to use my voice. That’s what it’s all about, finding your voice. Mine happens to be long-winded. Not everyone’s cup ‘o tea, for sure.

         As for my account being slanted? There’s a whole lot of people who this is striking a chord with. This is by far my most popular blog post. I am getting messages and emails and women who are saying they relate, this is their experience too. Not everyone has lived this. Obviously you haven’t. Congratulations on that, sir.

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         1. I struggled with this article . Not with the topic , but the writing . Tedious and long winded, self indulgent . And your reaction to this man’s criticism has taken me from , give her another chance to , buh bye. Snarky , defensive . Two things you shouldnt be when receiving criticism .
            Shame, because I believe you have raised many valid points , important ones and you could reach more people if your writing was better. More succinct and less about you. A trap in any art form .
            Best

            Best ..

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         2. Maybe if women weren’t the inferior sex they wouldn’t be having these issues? Wonder how evolution made you this way? Like it or lump it I say. Try not being so darn vulnerable and just plain out inferior, no amount of manipulation is going bring down every single guy to your levels.

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         3. Well said, Gretchen.

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      4. Dan, I feel ashamed for you. That you are so willfully ignorant on this topic, and yet, you still commented. An ironic comment no less. One that is the antithesis of progress and understanding.

         This is my first time reading your articles Gretchen, and I can’t wait to read more! I love the way you write. The way you eloquently word what we go through in a direct manner is fantastic. Thank you!

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      5. You really got nothing at all from this article?

         Let me tell you something, Danny Boy, for me it was like reading my own biography! This didn’t over-emphasize, in fact it did exactly what it complained about–it minimized the issues.

         I’m sorry for you if it rattled your self-importance or shook your world-view. Too bad if it makes you uncomfortable–an experience I have felt all my life–but if you can’t be part of the solution–at least stop being part of the problem.

         You have no position you can stand upon. Your audience is going to see through the posturing and posing. And you have very bad manners.

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      6. This was a great read & I enjoyed the down-play of your overly balanced article immensely! When I was 15 I was statutorily raped by a prison guard & gave birth to a son having Down Syndrome & diagnosed with leukemia on xmas of 94′. At the age of 18, I walked my son through intensive chemotherapy treatments all on my own! Even my son’s pediatric oncologist, Dr. Peter Saddowitz, came on to me at Syracuse University 5C clinic during a platelet transfusion. So, I just want to commend your writings & reiterate that girls like me who undergo these types of treatments while growing up become hardboiled badass butches who not only are able to physically defend themselves but can verbally cut a man up like a can of sardines & spit his bullshit out in 2 seconds flat! Then all you whiners out there wonder why you can’t meet a nice woman who’s loving & nurturing?

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      7. Okay Jackass, you just proved her fucking point!!

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2. Do you realize that many of those things are experienced by men as well? I could give you numerous examples of how I choose to ignore or de-escalate throughout my day, each and every day. Now, true, my experiences in this area aren’t because I’m a woman, but should it matter? We all as humans have to do this, otherwise, we would all be at constant war with each other. Unfortunately. This is the problem I have with any kind of “ism” … the selecting out of a characteristic for heightened awareness, when we all, as human beings, experience many of the same things but for different reasons.

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   1. I would be very interested in men writing about their experiences in this subject. I think the more we share about our experiences, the better off we’d all be. This was partly inspired by my own experiences. Particularly raising a teenage boy and teenage girl. The difference in their experiences at school with the opposite sex is staggering. STAGGERING.

      Of course men are victims of abuse and rape. And sexual harassment. And those things are just as important and worthy of attention. My experience has been that men are genuinely shocked and surprised when they do realize the scope of what women deal with. The online harassment women receive is staggering. The amount of women I know personally who have been sexually abused or raped or physically abused is staggering. It’s actually easier to point out the number of women who haven’t. Talking about this issue as it pertains to women does not negate what any man has experienced.

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      1. I’ll try to write something in the next day or two and post the link here. But be forewarned, I’m not saying that all of my experiences or reasons for discomfort are the same as yours or what other women experience. What I’m saying is that we all have various reasons for not feeling safe, for being uncomfortable, for having to find ways to ignore and de-escalate.

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         1. I agree that it’s valuable for the other side of the story. I’ve experienced things that could make that list also. Many people, both men and women have. On the other side, there are women who have hardly experienced these things, compared to others. Possibly insulated in one way or another. I think that Gretchen’s point seems to be that men for the most part, can’t understand the overwhelming disparity experienced by women, and at the hands of men.

            To miss this point, or to bring up another issue, even if it’s an important one, just seems to prove the point of the article.

            She’s not saying that there aren’t other facets to this, she’s just saying that if you’re a guy, don’t miss the main point. Especially for the sake of the women in your life.

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            1. Gil, thank you. Yes, this is an article written solely about the things women experience, from a woman’s perspective. Thank you for getting that.

            2. I agree with pretty much everything you said, been a small, skinny guy (I was 3rd shortest in my senior school when I was in my final year, so smaller than kids 4 years under me) so I am very familiar with the constantly de-escalation needed by the ‘weaker’ people in a situation, been a goth so an easy target probably didn’t help.

               The one thing I take objection too is your implication that women are inherently weaker than men. You only have to look at the UFC to know that isn’t always the case by any manner or means. Certainly I’ve had encounters, a few of them unpleasant with women who physically were far more imposing than me.

               I would strongly suggest Martial arts classes, it really helps for you to feel more comfortable that if that sort of situation ever did arise, you at least have an idea how to survive long enough to get help in that kind of scenario, it also helps you to realise that your agility is as powerful as weapon as strength. Don’t take a ‘do’ style (Karate, Judo, Aikido e.t.c.) they are just art forms, not actual combat styles. Learning a real combat style like jujitsu or a kung-fu style gives you a degree of confidence in your own abilities.

               I know it certainly helped me a large amount.

            3. Steven, I have fantasized for years and years about learning a fighting technique that would make me an untouchable bad ass. My husband teases me about it all the time because he knows if we’re watching a show or movie where someone is taking someone down I always say something about wanting to learn how to do that…(he teases because I’m so predictable and he knows what I’m going to say before I say it) I was searching for a Krav Maga class years ago but couldn’t find any near me at the time. I may look into it again at some point. Or one of the classes you suggest.

               Yes, there are women who are as strong or stronger than many men. Those women are pretty amazing. On average, most of us can be overpowered my a man. Due to size and the fact that men have more testosterone and muscle mass. On average, not always. I took a self defense class years ago, it came highly recommended. I would come home and practice the techniques on my husband. He could overpower me each time. It was very disheartening. Maybe I will find a class… and have my daughters learn it as well… thank you.

            4. I am disappointed, but not surprised to read your essay. In the 60s, the phrase
               “Men are pigs” became popular. While I consider that to be an insult to pigs, I get the point. I have to say that if I saw any of these things happening, I would hope I would have the courage to call the guy on it. My parents taught me to respect all people equally, no matter what their sex, race, religion, etc, and that has stuck with me through my entire life. I hope that one day, that attitude will become the norm, not the exception.
               Now…as for Martial Arts training. I disagree with the poster who dismissed Aikido as not being a combat form. Unlike many martial arts, it is not based on aggressive striking (although that is a part of it). Rather, it is focused on making it impossible for your attacker to touch you by redirecting their energy against them. When it works well, the attacker will move at you and reach out to grab you, then, find themselves on the ground with no idea how they got there. Now, I, for one, have practiced Taoist Tai Chi for a decade now. It is not so much a combat form, as it is focused more on exercise, building balance, and meditation that increases inner calmness. However, the moves I use are essentially identical to those of the combat form, and with a small change in focus, I can activate the combat aspects of it.
               Needless to say, much of the fighting we see on television is theatre, and has little to do with the reality of combat. However it can be close. When Steven Segal was Steven Segal, he used Tai Chi as a fighting style, and actually did a fairly decent job of keeping it real.
               One of the benefits of martial arts training is that it also changes ones spirit, and can remove nervousness and fear that is communicated to the predators. That, in and of itself can eliminate many problems. A strong spirit can add the clarity that causes the weaker spirits (such as the guys that invade your personal space) to leave you alone.
               Finally, I do want to point out that there are a lot of guys like me out there. We are sometimes clueless but we are aware that we can be pigs, and work as hard as we can to NOT behave poorly.

            5. Maybe I missed it, but I rarely see anything in feminist writing these days that says “for the most part” when discussing how men view and treat women. These pieces paint with an extremely broad brush and seem to suggest that it is impossible for any man to understand because they don’t experience it themselves. I completely reject that notion.

            6. I don’t know how this post is seen as bashing men. I was actually saying “how can we expect the good men in our lives to know if we don’t tell them what we’ve been through?” I have NEVER bashed men. EVER. In real life or in my writing. I have written posts about the unfair and destructive ideals we place on boys and men in our society. I advocate for boys and men as well. I have a son, a husband and had a younger brother. I want them to live in a world that treats them fairly and doesn’t expect them to be “tough” and “macho” and doesn’t shame them if they decide to be the Stay At Home Dad. And even when you mentioned writing about your experience? I asked you to please do so and link it here. I am genuinely interested in learning more about what it is like to be a man in our society, the things you come up against that I may not be aware of. What I’m doing here, in this post, is writing about what women, most women, experience. That’s it. Not bashing men. Not saying that men don’t have things they have to deal with. I can’t imagine reading a post that a man wrote about his experience and the things he’s gone through (even if those things are at the hands of women) and responding with defensiveness or dismissing it because I have things I’ve gone through too. That’s akin to reading a story about someone’s abuse and saying “but… but… I’ve been abused too, so you shouldn’t talk about yours” Honestly, that mentality baffles me. If we are reading and commenting are we not here to learn from each other and learn more so we can all try to understand each other better?

            7. I’m not dismissing your experiences. Far from it.

            8. Gretchen, I owe you an apology for a couple of things. First, I likely did exactly what you bemoaned always happens when you post on these issues in the outset of this post. I should have respected that and just keep my thoughts to myself, or just vented on my own blog. Second, for getting distracted by some things in your post that are to me like a red cape to a bull. There’s a piece of this post that seems like a litany of “men are horrible people” complaints. I got distracted by those and failed to give the full post my complete attention. As I read it a third and fourth time and finally focused on the final couple of paragraphs and read your responses to my comments, I realized what your objective was. Third, for going off without proper consideration of what I was saying and how you might take it.

               I didn’t intend to criticize you directly or personally. I didn’t intend to accuse you of bashing men.

               Instead, I responded to your post in the context of my own experiences and my own idealistic view of how I wish the world was. It was not defensiveness or dismissal, but instead an effort to suggest that we all have experiences that create many of the same reactions you described in your post in an effort to get to where I’d like to be. That we no longer talked about gender relations, racial relations, religion relations, but instead focused on human relations.

               I consider myself to be very liberal on the political spectrum in this country, but I have grown weary of the identity politics that both sides play and wish that we could step away from the never ending outrage and tension that grows out of those identity politics. We are human beings first, the rest should be irrelevant. So …

               My apologies. You are an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful individual with a lot of value to add to the discussion on the issues that bedevil us. For responding in a way that you felt didn’t fully respect your efforts here, that was my mistake.

               And, by the way, I may still offer a response to your post over on my blog and link to it here. I’m still kicking that around. Although much of what I would say has now been expressed through my series of comments here.

            9. I appreciate that. And to be honest, there are things I would like to add. I wish I would have made the point a little more clear: most men aren’t aware of this phenomenon because a. we don’t inform them and b. they are good guys who don’t grab women’s asses and don’t kiss women who have told them no. Most men don’t do these things I’m mentioning. But there are plenty who do. And sometimes? It’s a harmless guy who thinks he’s being funny or complimentary. I’m not trying to demonize anyone, just alert people to how it is received and why it’s received that way.

               I SO wish we could just focus on humans as a whole. I wish we didn’t need to discuss things in compartmentalized ways. With sexism, racism, any kind of “ism” there’re specific things that are being addressed. One day (because I’m optimistic) we will be there.

               I would still be interested to read your post. I’m sure there’s a dynamic of feeling like you have to tiptoe around women at times, that you don’t want to be seen as “that guy” and it probably sometimes seems like a minefield. I want to hear all the perspectives on this issue. Truly.

            10. I’m a hugger but I can’t hug most women at work because, you know. There are even some men at work I’ll give a hug too. And every time I do it I have to worry about whether they are really comfortable with it. Or how people who witness the hug feel about it. And these hugs have nothing to do with sex or attraction or anything else. In fact, the women I find physically attractive are likely to be the last ones to get a hug from me if at all. My hugs are about a way to show I care about the person. That this isn’t just about work. That we are all humans and a little hug here or there can go a long way to reminding us all of our humanity.

                I love little kids. They way they laugh, the way they smile. Their love of life and their simple joy at all of it. When little kids are nearby I’m a different person. And I always fear that if I give a little girl a hug or invite her to sit on my knee one of the people in the crowd will wonder if I’m one of those monsters. And here’s the deal. I oppose the death penalty with every fiber of my being but the one exception I might be willing to make is for child molesters

                But I can’t get away from the fear that being myself, being open and affectionate to the people in my life, will be viewed by somebody as inappropriate and offensive. I give my secretary a hug every Friday before we leave work for the weekend. Is that wrong? How could it be? To some, it is. So tiptoeing … You betcha.

            11. It suggests that if that is what you’re looking for. If you feel deprived of your own sense of “victimization” than you would see all kinds of things in what you are calling “feminist writings.” But the fact of the matter is, women, by virtue of the culture we live in, the rules that have trickled down through the centuries, and the fact that in most cases they are the physically smaller person in a confrontation with an average man means that it is in fact something that a woman will have to deal with, as described, more often than a man does. That’s simply the way it goes, and no amount of “well, me too” is going to change that. It certainly sheds no light on the problem.

                If one’s view of “feminist writings” is some kind of indictment, and they feel the need to crusade against such writings and positions every single time, perhaps they need to ask themselves why.

                I don’t see much difference between this attitude, and deciding that slavery in this country’s history had no racial component, because after all in some places, there were white slaves. (A positition which is sadly rather common among a lot of the same people who decide that somehow “humanist” is more appropriate than “feminist.”

                A person can start a blog, a movement, an organization dedicated to the protection of men who suffer from abuse, and in fact, many exist. But there is a big difference between advocated on behalf of a victim than happens to be male, and challenging the very notion that female victimization is not prominent, not ingrained into out social structure, and not “a thing.”

                The squeaky wheel gets the oil, as they say. When the problem is clearly more on one side of the fence than on the other, there is no amount of screaming that will make both sides even. Advocate where you think you powers are most useful, but I’m mighty tired of the notion of DEadvocating feminism because men hurt too.

            12. I neither claimed victimization for myself or men in general not indicted feminist writings except to the extent they rely on unrealistic generalizations that focus on differences that divide rather than argue for the reasons we should be together.

            13. I beg to differ Ty. Kingmidget is shedding light on “the problem” by saying all people are able to be perpetrators and all are able to be victims. Do you think the 13 year old boys being pushed into sexual acts by their female teachers feel any better about what has happened to them because “woman will have to deal with, as described, more often than a man does”? Of course not. It shouldn’t be happening to anyone no matter what boxes they fit into or labels they have. Implying it is more ok for it to happen to one group of people than another group of people for any reason at all is simply not good enough. That includes your comments about You just did to males exactly what the article tells males not to do to females. This culture of “men aren’t allowed to speak about their issues ever” and “men are monsters (or pigs)” leads to another problem. Unsurprisingly it one of the reasons many men find it so difficult to share their emotions with anyone, and why suicide rates amongst male age groups are generally significantly higher than those amongst female age groups in many countries. As much as society likes to tell men they are all emotionless robots (or worse, monsters) men actually have emotions, feelings, and mental health issues too and tarring them all with the same brush as one person “sheds no light on the problem” as you say. It just creates another.

                I haven’t yet seen Kingmidget minimise what any woman feels the way you just did to men Ty. Nor have I seen the part where he apparently said or implyed that female victimisation is not prominant. He is simply sharing a males perspective on similar issues faced by men (something the author of the post asked for). He never claimed anything about frequency or severity. He marely implied men are as human as women, for better or worse.

            14. You just confirm my point, Drew. I detected about four things you created out of whole cloth about the points I and the OP made, and that’s when I stopped counting. You’re not reading, your responding. To what, I’m not sure.

            15. @ Kingmidget…this shows how ignorant you are about women ;o)
                In women language, when they say “always”, “all the time”, “never” it’s a way to express a serious discomfort or sadness or frustration…
                Didn’t you know that ?

                And of course here come the guy with his rhetoric.
                Of course WE know it’s not “always”, or “systematic”
                This matter is actually the reason for a lot of couple disputes and arguments…

                Example: woman “You never do the dishes !!”
                man: ” Yes, I do, I did them last Friday, and the week before, on Tuesday !”

                But that equals a “never” for a woman…

                Do you get it :o)) ?

                ps: but just fyi, I get “systematic” unwanted attention when I’m back home in Paris…and it’s not exaggerated :o)

            16. Yes, I get it. You seem to be suggesting that one of the birthrights of being a woman is sloppiness in language. 😉

            17. Every time a woman starts to tell her story, I hear a man say “but men___.”

                Stop trying to change the conversation.

                Instead, *listen* to what women are saying. We’re not saying that all men or bad or that men don’t experience this thing or that thing or the other thing. We’re talking about what we experience as women.

                There’s room to talk about what men experience, too. Plenty of room. But disrupting an ongoing conversation to do it is not the way.

            18. I think one reason that men tend to assume women are saying that all men are horrible is because in describing their emotions when walking alone at night, being greeted by a man in a parking lot, speaking to your boss ,or even being approached by a man for romantic reasons, women always seem to be expecting the worst of men.

                De-escalating situations with men reflexively for fear of being beaten, raped, or fired kind of sounds like you reflexively assume that all men you deal with are monsters just waiting for an excuse to abuse you in one of these ways. This is particularly infuriating for men who, though maybe not incredibly well informed about women’s issues, do their level best to be respectful to women and walk on pins and needles when they are speaking with women for fear of coming off as a “creep” or “pig”.

                I am not saying any of this to belittle anything you said in this piece. Just trying to offer perspective. It’s just that, for some of us men, it’s hard not to get a little insulted when we hear that the immediate response most women have to us is one of fear, especially when the last thing we would ever want is to do something monstrous. Often when men express offense to pieces written by women that are similar to this one, we are asked to examine why we are offended. I have, and this is why. Maybe this has been said a million times before and I’m just another asshole with a shitty opinion, but this is how I feel. I apologize if that’s the case.

            19. I agree Nathan. Very rearly do I hear “that man” or “he” or any other singular word in these situations. Very often I hear “men”. “Men” means all men. Credit to this authour for pointing out that she doesn’t mean all men. Unfortunately, most of the time men see womans rights advocacy the also see deamonising generalistions about all men. Is it any wonder some men stop listening? If you mean some or most than say some or most. They only take one sylable or four letters but over time it will make a huge difference to the effectiveness of the advocacy. I know many men who stop listening immediately after a generalisation about a race or gender or age has been made.

                I have never commented on a post like this before today because, like i just read, “There’s room to talk about what men experience, too. Plenty of room. But disrupting an ongoing conversation to do it is not the way.”

                However, the author has specifically said she is interested in hearing male perspectives too. Her blog = her rules.

                With that said I also agree with what Kingmidget is saying from personal experience. I have to be careful about what movies I see at the cinema when I have no one else to go with eg. I heard Frozen was good, I grew up watching and loving Disney movies, I plucked up the courage to go alone because everyone I knew had already seen it, the only showing left happened to be a “mothers and bubs”. Sadly my immediate thought was of how many of those mothers would think i’m a predator for watching a movie. So of course I didn’t do something innocent and fun because of that. Like King says, I can’t hug people, I can’t complement people, and I can’t touch people without the fear it will be taken the wrong way. I’ve been bombarded with the message that the only negative emotion i’m allowed to show is anger because men get angry and women cry. Every time I do everyone’s dishes in the staff kitchen, without fail, I am told “you’ll make someone a good wife one day” (There is only one other male in the office and it isn’t him saying that). I’ve had complete strangers come right up to me with the sole purpose of groping and jiggling their breasts in front of me just because I’m in a bar/club having a drink with a couple of mates. Even now i’m thinking “how many people will assume i’m gay because of what i’m typing” – i’m not, I did however grow up with sisters who had a big influence on my life, my world view, and my interests. Because of the prevaling societal view I have to either justify or hide my enjoyment in certian completely innocent movies, songs, and other interests. It’s not just the men who make it that way, nor is it just the woman. For me though, the saddest part of it all is that I can’t do my job properly because I’m litterally not allowed to be alone with a female client at any time for the sole reason that I am male and males sometimes abuse females. When will everybody understand that people abuse people regardless of gender. In my opinion, the fact that there are more female victims than male victims says two things. 1. Many men don’t speak up about their abuse. I have to add here that even if every man did the may still be more female victims of abuse although this is not yet my experience as someone who works with abused and neglected people on a daily basis. 2. (and pehaps more universally correct) the culture of our society sets men up to be disrespectful and abusive by promoting the notion that violence, sexualised behaviours, arrogance, and anger are all male attributes and respect, sadness, innocent displays of affection, love, and self control are all female attributes that men could either never display genuinely or should be ostracised or minimised for doing so.

                I’m not saying women have life easy or never experience any of these things. I just need to say, in this one post that men have been given permission to express their own experiences without being lablled as “mansplainers”, or “anti-feminist” for sharing issues they face as so many women have done on the post, that men aren’t pigs or mosters or emotionless robots. Men don’t have perfect lives where everyone loves them and they can get away with doing anything and everything. Some men might. Some women might also. But to suggest that men have nothing legitimate to feel upset about is just as wrong as dismissing woman’s rights issues.

                Thank you Gretchen Kelly for showing a legitimate interest in hearing about the issues both women and men face on a far too frequent basis. For some men who found themselves reading this I can guaruntee you would be, if not the first person, within the first five people to do so.

         2. Yes, I get that. I am definitely interested to read it, send me the link when you write it.

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      2. I may or may not follow through on my commitment to write a responsive post with my story. I’ve read your post more closely and there are differences in your experience as a woman (and those of many other women, of course) than my own as a man. What I initially responded to was some portions of your post that describe a set of fears and reactions you have to your experiences as a woman that are very similar to my own fears and reactions to things that have happened over the course of my life. Just to give you an example, I have never slept soundly. When I think about it, I wonder sometimes if it relates to back to some childhood experiences. First, we lived across the street from houses that backed up to a field. Every summer, the field went up in flames and to this day I have vivid memories of the flames reaching into the night sky right behind those houses that were right across the street. I was terrified of fire and terrified of fire destroying our house while we slept and the resulting race to escape that would be necessary. Second, at some point in my childhood, our neighborhood was in the epicenter of a part of town that was victimized over a period of several years by the East Area Rapist. There was a lot of fear in the late 1970’s in my neighborhood as a result. Those crimes were never solved. He attacked over 50 women. Again, maybe it’s not related. There certainly could be physical issues or other reasons for my sleep difficulties. But I know this. I rarely go to bed at night without the dual fears of a fire or an intruder inserting themselves into my mind and I regularly wake up in the middle of the night convinced that somebody is there. In the shadows lurking around the doorway to my bedroom, or quietly approaching up the stairs.

         Yes, this has nothing to do with my gender or race or some other special characteristic that applies to me but not to all human beings. But that is my point, while I may not be a woman or an African-American, I have had experiences that lead me to many of the same fears and concerns women have.

         I could tell you about the time I was sexually harassed at work by a woman almost twice my age and which led to me changing jobs so I didn’t have to deal with her. I never complained to a supervisor, it was easier to just move on. I could tell you about the time just a couple of months ago during a period of heightened concern about crime in our neighborhood when I went for a late afternoon run mere blocks from my house and several teenage males rode their bikes by me and the one in front looked at me in a way that had me convinced that if I turned down the wrong street, I likely would have been victimized by he and his friends. I could tell you about the last three times I’ve been pulled over by a cop it’s been because of their mistakes and not because of anything I’ve done and that one of those times was because the cop was having a bad day and I chose to cross him on the wrong day. And how did I cross him on the wrong day? By passing him because he was driving too slow, I glanced at him as I passed him (he was in a civilian car, not a marked car), and then stopped at a stop light and turned right in compliance with the law. He wanted to give me a ticket for reckless driving. But he basically was mad at me for something that apparently had already happened to him because he was having a bad day. I could tell you about how because of that incident I will never again feel comfortable with a cop car behind me. I could tell you about how I work across the street from a State Capitol Building and have believed for the last 15 years, ever since 9/11, there is more than a remote chance the terrorist idiots may choose to mix things up and strike at smaller yet still significant targets than New York City and Washington, D.C. I could tell you that there are many homeless in the area where I work and how when I walk to my car at the end of the day I am hyper vigilant to my surroundings because you never know who might be lurking. I could tell you that I rarely attend public events where there are crowds when I don’t wonder about an attack either from a terrorist or from a mass shooter. There are times when I can feel the bullet enter my brain while I sit in the dark in a crowded theater.

         I could tell you about so many experiences at work where I have had to de-escalate and ignore to defuse situations rather than standing up for what is right or defending my interests and beliefs. I could tell you about the number of road rage incidents I have done everything I could to remove myself from without taking the other path and create a calamity for myself, my family, or others on the road. One of them actually happened today and involved a neighbor who I don’t think realized I was the driver of the other car — a female neighbor by the way.

         I could tell you all of those things, but I wonder if it will make a difference because I don’t experience those things as a woman. I am not “targeted” as a woman or a member of a minority group. No, actually, I am a part of the problem. I am the problem. Because I am a white male. It is impossible for me to understand what it feels to walk delicately in this world and ignore the slings and arrows that are thrown up constantly. Even though I find myself taking that walk and trying to ignore those things on a virtually daily basis. It is, unfortunately, a function of living in the world we live in.

         Maybe I don’t experience racism and sexism directed at me on the daily basis many women and minorities may experience. But living in the world I grew up in in the latter part of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century, I have experienced enough myself and heard the stories told by those who have suffered far worse. I truly do understand and I resent the notion that I can’t possibly understand because I am a man and because I haven’t walked in a woman’s shoes. I so wish that just as the people who victimize women and minorities do so based on generalizations built largely upon fear, ignorance, and disrespect, that those who are victimized would stop making the same kind of generalizations in return.

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         1. The original post isn’t saying that women are the only ones who go through this world with fear, or having to de-escalate situations. The point is that in addition to all the fears and situations you’ve described, women have this other set of fears that they get ON TOP of those.

            If I can use the example of your experience of your neighbourhood being “victimized over a period of several years by the East Area Rapist.” Very scary! I’m sure you were worried for your mother’s safety, your sister, your female friends. That worry is real. A woman in the same situation would also worry about her mother, sister, friends… and also herself, and how she might defend herself, and whether she should go out at a certain time of the evening, and whether she should have a drink tonight and walk home or be sober and drive so she doesn’t have to go down that alley, and if she wears this outfit and god-forbid she WERE attacked would people say she’s asking for it?

            None of this is to say you weren’t worried or that you felt safe at that time. But women have an extra layer of concern in that situation that you are free from.

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            1. The suggestion that as a child, or as an adult, I wouldn’t also feel victimized personally by somebody breaking into my home to assault an occupant whether it is me or somebody else is just stunning to me. Yes, it is victimization of a different sort and degree but that you barely recognize it …

               The other problem is with the endless and seemingly universal notions expressed here and elsewhere. All women experience this and no men understand. No, that wasn’t the intent? Go back to the title and tell me that isn’t a legitimate reading of the title.

               Here’s the deal, I have no interest in minimizing or disrespecting Gretchen’s thoughtful post. As I acknowledge in other comments I failed in a number of ways in my initial response to it. I also have no interest in minimizing the concerns and feelings of women who have been treated poorly and worse. But I will also battle against unrealistic generalizations that I believe do more to divide than to unite.

            2. @ Kingmidget: it is a fact, universally acknowledged that women are far more victims of men that the opposite. In general- based on stats.
               Example: In France in 1 year something like 92 % of sexual victims were women.
               96 or 97 % or perpetrators were men.

               As a woman, I have never been harassed sexually by another woman.
               I know women do it to men, but it’s a minority.

               It should not be ignored, and I am quite sure most women are sympathetic whereas I heard MEN say that those guys being harassed were actually weak, were pussies (using the female sex as an insult…) were faggots etc…
               Who is unfair here ??

               Now just to make things clear: CHILDREN are even more victims to what adults can do to them. They are bullied , they get raped, exploited whatever horrors you can imagine is done to them.
               OK ? (just to add: little girls are statistically more at risk than little boys…that’s how it is !)

               So what’s your point ??

               We can go on, black, asian or oriental women are more at risk , more harassed than white women. It’s a fact.

               Here the subject is: what do women feel, experience, what they have to go through, and how they are discredited by …mostly…men (I’m careful, not saying all…because it’s not true indeed)

               It’s a bad habit when someone is expressing something that others need to discredit it by saying it’s not all true and giving irrelevant examples.

               I am really sorry about my tone, I don’t like doing this, but it’s annoying.
               It’s almost childish.

            3. If you’re referring to your tone as annoying and childish, you would be correct. Nothing I have said was an effort to discredit anything that Gretchen said. Nothing. But, it’s pretty clear from your response and your tone that nothing I can say will persuade you of that so I’m not going to bother.

   2. I agree. We all, as human beings, experience confrontations and we all deescalate the majority of the time . Yes, many of these confrontations are based on gender, race, religion, etc. , but it is part of being a social creature. I’m not saying that we should not listen or react to the concerns raised on this article , but it should be mentioned that no one single group of people do not experience these types of issues. We all do , and as humans we decide when we should take a stand and when we feel it’s better not to because if we all stood up and confronted every issue that didn’t sit well with us then we would all be standing and staring at each other. We all have been victims and we all have been abusers in some form or another. Instead of self pity or self righteousness maybe it’s time for self reflection. Change how you treat others first.

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   3. @Kingmidget: Only one guy I know (and I have lots of buddies) has experienced unwanted sexual attention in the metro in Paris…Even with this experience he hasn’t made the link with what women experience.

      There was a recent video in the US, on CCTV, of 2 women rubbing their butt on a guy in a 7/11 or so.
      That is so rare that it’s on the news !!!

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3. It really is amazing to think about how in general we are told to just ignore it. It is the standard response to being bullied to just ignore it. At the same time we never discuss the times you shouldn’t ignore it.

   Also going to an all girls college, that was in a consortium with other colleges, part of the safety precaution was giving every girl a whistle so that she could get the campus security attention if needed. I know guys who felt uncomfortable because there seemed to be extra security on campus who paid particular attention to any guy lingering around. The school itself felt that these precautions were necessary to protect the students.

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   1. We had a similar thing in college. There were these blue lights all over campus. If you felt in danger you could call and security would come help. And some of the organizations had male students volunteer to be available if you needed someone to walk with you after dark.

      And I think there have been many times that I’ve been told to ignore it, it’s not a big deal, but I also think I have just adopted some of the “just move on” attitude all on my own. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. I was unaware of just how often I was doing it. It was kind of surprising when I realized it…

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4. I agree 100% with you. It’s that silent anxiety that we just shrug off because we have lives to lead. We must however remember that some men have also been assaulted, raped or abused. I hate that the world is like this.

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   1. Me too, Sarina. And I hate that when men (or boys) are assaulted or abused that it is brushed off as no big deal.

      I like the way you put it: “silent anxiety.” That’s the perfect way to describe it. Thank you.

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5. “Play along to get along”. -Story of my career.

   I’ve worked in kitchens and the restaurant industry since my very first job. This behavior runs rampant. It is also “common sense” that we can all talk to each other in such a way., while at work. It keeps things light. But then again, I’m talking about TALK.
   When I was younger I was certainly approached in the ways you wrote about. Now that I’m older and wiser, I stay away from situations like that…even at work.
   I can see both sides of this.
   It triggers some women. And I also understand how destructive it can be to some people/personalities.
   This piece is so relevant to our young girls. As a mom, it’s my priority to never make my daughter feel inferior. Even in the midst of her social complacency.
   Every decade we see much improvements. So, that shows that our teachings and lessons are sinking into our future generations’ heads. – Jain

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   1. Sigh… I think the service/restaurant industry is especially bad. At least in my experience. There’s the camaraderie and playfulness that makes the job fun, but then there are the times it crosses the line. And the customers. They can be the worst offenders. There seems to be a mentality with some that just because you’re serving them you should be “serving” them. If I could go back I would handle it all differently. But at the time I needed the job and couldn’t afford to lose it.

      And you’re right, in regards to the relevance to our young girls. I know I have become more passionate about these things since having daughters. And having a high school boy and middle school girl? The differences in their experiences are really shocking.

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      1. Much much different between the sexes. I agree completely. We certainly ARE groomed to accept things that we can’t change…or that we believe we can’t change.
         It’s dangerous for both sexes.

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      2. I’ve worked in that industry. It’s very sexist indeed. Guys in the kitchen !!!! We are just meat…like what they cook.

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6. You really nailed this, Gretchen. I wish I would have had this to pass on to those who questioned my attitude or toughness in my late 20’s when I decided to put an end to my own, seemingly innate, practice of de-escalation. Very relevant piece and very well written!

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   1. It’s Jen Talley by the way (noticed I showed up as anonymous)!

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      1. I wish I would have put an end to it, or even realized it, in my 20’s. Sadly, I’m just now getting there. And yeah, when we do decide to stop “playing along” and say something it probably comes across as as abrupt or bitchy. I’m sure to some it seems like it’s coming out of nowhere. But good for you, you always were a “take no shit” kind of person 🙂

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7. STANDING OVATION. Well done, SW. This gave me the big chills. What stands out to me and has the biggest consequences in my life, is constant vulnerability or fear of safety. Half the things my husband does without even thinking are things I feel forced to either not do at all, or do with precaution. I’m jealous of that!

   I also offing HATE when my opinion/advice/whatever is devalued over a man’s. Grrrrr

   And yes, I have had to explain some of these things to my husband, who, through no fault of his own, was unaware simply because he has never experienced being a woman (that I’m aware of hahahaha).

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   1. Yes! My husband goes jogging at night sometimes. I would never do that alone. There are so many things he can go and do without thinking twice about being vulnerable. And he worries about some of those things with me. If I’m running out to do last minute Christmas shopping at night he worries. I think what he was probably unaware of is how often I feel vulnerable when it’s the middle of the day, just doing my normal stuff. Hell, when Mandi was picking me up at the airport some guy said something to me and I had to pretend to be on my phone so he would leave me alone. I forgot all about it until I was writing this!

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      1. I pretend to be on my phone whenever I’m alone at night but especially when I think there’s any possibility of someone watching me. I’m awesome at faking half a phone call. 😉

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         1. Make sure you also look alert as well! Ive heard some victims are chosen because they do not seem aware of their surroundings and so they are easier to over power.

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            1. Been doing that for the past 20 years. I also watch my shadow so as I don’t look paranoid, but I am keeping track. I’m old, and have been a woman for maanny years. Got piles of tricks.

8. It was interesting, my reaction, when I got to “It’s positioning our keys between our fingers in case we need a weapon when walking to our car.” I do that all the time. I believe there are aspects of what you describe that are experienced by humans in general – but I don’t think men “get” the women’s version – and to be fair, we don’t understand theirs. We may walk down the street in fear, but we fear different things. You touched a lot on what I was trying to write about way back when we talked about it. 🙂 Excellent post.

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   1. PLEASE write that post! You must. And, thank you. <3

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   2. On a complete tangent — what -is- it with the whole “keys between our fingers” thing? If I really wanted to hurt somebody, keys between their fingers would be worthless. It’d just piss me off. If you’re that concerned about your safety, don’t carry keys, or pepper spray. Carry a nice folding knife with a spring-assisted blade.

      These sorts of things are why I think women should take self-defense courses. There are so many misconceptions about what will keep them safe, not the least of which is that you need to be armed against faceless strangers, when the majority of assaults come from people you know. Your weapon may not always be near you, so if you feel afraid, become a weapon. I’d love it if the abusive jerks would disappear overnight, but as that’s unlikely to happen anytime soon, martial arts training is a good thing to engage in while we wait for education to take effect.

      Changing viewpoints is generational; learning to kick ass deals with the present reality.

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9. Jaysus…I love this so much. I could feel those frustrated tears in my eyes reading this.

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   1. Sigh… frustrated tears. I had a few writing this. Especially thinking about my daughter. The stuff she’s already experiencing. She had a moment on the bus where she had to sit next to a boy who kind of scares her. He’s the violent type. He kept talking to her and asking questions and was being very pushy with her. She came home upset and wasn’t even sure why. After talking to me about it, she realized it was because she “played nice” even though she didn’t like the things he was saying (none of it sexual). And that could have just as easily been a boy sitting there feeling what she was feeling. But after she told me all of this I started thinking about all the times I had a similar experience. And damn… Yeah. Frustrated tears.

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10. Can I break the like button on this? I want all men to read this, learn and do better. Please! Off to share this everywhere.

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    1. Aw, thank you! That is awesome!

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11. Reblogged this on Off the Mark and Roaming.

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12. Wish the “Like” button here was an “Applaud” button. Seems wrong to just like this, when it’s not something to be liked, but understood.

    I have three daughters. I will encourage them to keep saying this stuff until they don’t need to say it anymore.

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    1. Thank you Damian! Yes, our daughters will probably be the ones to change things. This generation is pretty remarkable and I’ve been so impressed with the young people I see fighting back against things they see that are injustices. My older daughter is the main reason I write about these things. Witnessing things she’s experiencing already that I can relate to has been eye opening.

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13. Probably explains why women never say when something is wrong in a relationship and guys are always left wondering “What did I do?”.

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    1. That seems like a fair point – I wonder if the culture needs to change as a WHOLE, to one more open to communication about these things.

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    2. Phil, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have never done that. 🙂 Kidding, of course. You know, it’s actually an interesting question. I think there are so many reasons a lot of women do that, and they can be quiet different and personal. It’s something I’ve personally been working on. But I do wonder if this plays a role in it.

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14. Reblogged this on World4Justice : NOW! Lobby Forum..

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15. Reblogged this on DragonflyLady's Writey Ramblings and commented:
    Gretchen hits the nail on the head.

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16. Great post Gretchen. I am always glad to be reminded of how much I have the luxury to take for granted. It is rare that I’m made to feel intimidated. I’m not sure if I’ve ever felt that way for any of the reasons you’ve cited.

    It is really important to have this perspective heard. I was brought up to respect women and my father has always been a good example to follow. However, it isn’t as simple as that. It is important to try to understand the issue. A man needs to think about it humbly, and realize that despite his own best efforts, he’s probably crossed these lines in one way or another along the way.

    Great comments about the service industry, too. I believe the intention behind most of the banter I saw and participated in with fellow employees was meant in good fun. On reflection, I believe that there were those that were minimizing and were hurt by this banter. I also suspect there were situations I could have influenced in a better way, to which I was blind.

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    1. You know, the only thing I liked about all the years I waited tables was the banter and the camaraderie. I never took offense to the jokes or playfulness. Of course, I’m a huge fan of inappropriate humor, so… the only times I was offended or upset were the times when I was touched inappropriately or spoken to as if I was a child. Some of those things were experienced by the male waiters too (rude customers who talk down to waiters, etc) but the touching was mostly experienced by the females. And my boss kissing me? That changed the dynamic at work for me, for sure. I never really felt comfortable at that job after that happened.

       Most of the men I know or come across are very respectful, good guys. And I kind of wrote this for them. The guys who don’t say suggestive or disrespectful things to women they don’t even know. It’s the majority of men, the nice guys, who probably have no idea how often these things happen. I so appreciate that you “get it” and understand what I was trying to say here.

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    2. Seriously? Justin Trudeau?

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17. *slow clap*

    I do SO love your thought process and your determination that we all take responsibility for changing the world.

    My initial thoughts were that most of this only applies to attractive women/girls, because certainly my experience of growing up (unattractively) was that I was pretty much overlooked. Well, by everyone, but anyway. Then I thought about how the abuse is probably more a power thing than anything else, and I did experience LOTS of bullying for the opposite reasons – because I *wasn’t* attractive enough. Though again, that came from both sexes so I’m still not sure the point stands.

    The incident I would most need to report at work (IF I spoke out) was the time my ass was grabbed after a barrage of inappropriate comments. By a patient – an old, crazy grandmother.

    The times that cheeky old men make comments, I let slide because I figure they’re just set in their ways and it’s easier and simpler to give them a terse smile and refocus on the appointment – there’s not enough time in the schedule for a combat over appropriateness, just because some old geezer said he’d thought about asking me to sit in his lap while I took his ancient mother’s retinal photographs.

    Adunno. I think as with anything, you have to pick your battles.

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    1. I completely agree with picking your battles. I was just telling my daughter that when she was talking about the sexist and offensive things she hears boys at school saying.

       I am wondering, though. It seems women get comments if they’re attractive because *some* guys think they owe them a date or a smile, etc. And I have known women who have gotten their fair share of remarks for being overweight and wearing a bathing suit or a tight fitting outfit. Remarks you don’t hear overweight men getting. It seems like even if it’s not in the form of a sexual come-on, women get assessed and graded based on their looks more than men. Of course, that’s a whole topic and a whole other post on it’s own.

       The childhood bullying is despicable. I wish I could go back in time and be there with you, holding your hand and telling those little shits to f*ck off.

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       1. Bless your boots, G. I bet you would have, as well!

          Yeah, okay, so in the negative ways, women are also subjected to more judgement than men. That’s true enough, but I think that often we do THAT to ourselves, or each other, perhaps more than men do. I wonder whether it all hearkens back to the same thing though – of trying to be ‘enougher’ than the others, so that we appear most attractive, so that we end up propagating the species. We have a lot of heritage to override with critical thinking, I reckon.

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18. The thing that I don’t think most men do understand is that our very existence is treated as novel. As Irconsiderer above said about being asked to sit in a man’s lap, it’s like many men believe that the insinuation of “Hey, you’re a woman, I’m a man, we should be doing something sexual” is a. appropriate, b. funny, c. new, d. welcomed (even when they’re told to knock it off). And if we don’t “Take a joke,” somehow we’re the ones with no sense of humor. And we’re the ones who are causing a problem. And we’re the ones who should go along to get along, because “why is that so wrong(and yet, no one wants to hear the answer)?” And I can’t believe that I always have to say it (but we know that I do), but no, it’s not all men. However, the general culture says “Hey ladies, get with the jokes, your existence is sexual and you’re not to be taken seriously. . .I mean, you’re not a *man,* right?” Maybe not all say it, but enough do that we hear it everywhere. And men *don’t* usually understand that as the OP says, this behavior starts when we’re children. I was 12 the first time I was touched sexually in public by a male stranger who not only made no attempt to hide the fact that he was touching me (right out in the open), but who gave me a look which clearly said “We both know that you want this.” And somehow if I speak out and say “That was wrong!” people respond with “Yeah, there’s something wrong with you.” No. No, there isn’t. There was something wrong with him. He made me (a child) think that I had done something to ask for that behavior and I puzzled about what it was for weeks afterwards, so that I knew never to do it again (because, surprise, I didn’t understand what sexuality was, or how it could be fun–because I was a child and never should have had to worry). But I think we can all agree that no, it wasn’t my fault. It’s never a child’s fault when an adult abuses them. But the trouble is, that while there have yes, been times in the subsequent 30 years that yeah, I was flirting with men near me, it’s been rare that I’ve been in situations with straight men where they believed that flirting with(or sexually harassing) me wasn’t appropriate, natural, and even their right(again, even when told to stop). It’s hard sometimes not to see it as one long arc over the course of my life. And again, when I talk about this, people (usually men) say things like “Oh, well, you must have a terrible life with all this abuse.” No. No, my life is pretty typical and standard for a professional woman. I get up, go to work, care for my household and family, do my job, go on with my life, come home, etc etc. And, when your objections to simple things like flirting or sexual innuendo are ignored with the frequency that ours are, when you’re flat out told “I don’t care what kind of interaction you think we should have, this is the interaction *I* want,” it’s extremely hard not to be concerned about what else that might mean down the road. If a man ignores your objection to being teased, if he crosses a line that you drew for him at that level, what confidence do you have that he will stop there? Will he stop with teasing? Will he escalate that to touching? Will he stop there? What happens if there’s no one around? Will he grab me and take me somewhere where no one will find us? Would that man in the mall have done that to 12 year old me? There’s no way to know. But it sure informed me at an age well before I had any idea of what was going on what I could expect from many of the men in my sphere. That my mere existence was going to be enough to “cause them” to leer at me, touch me without consent, and treat me as juuuust a little bit less than they. Again, maybe not all men say, do, or treat women this way, but enough do that we hear it just about everywhere. Enough do that we have to carefully evaluate whether or not each man is going to behave that way. And enough do that we’re surprised when you’re not one who does.

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    1. Everything about your comment… so spot on. And maybe that’s one of the biggest factors that most men, hell, most people aren’t aware of. So many of us were touched inappropriately or sexually abused at a young age. The numbers are staggering and they’re not even fully represented. Any woman can poll her closest friends and find that at least half if not more have been victims. A man can poll his closest friends and find that most of them have not. And yes, I have to say that it is just as appalling and tragic when abuse happens to a boy. I hate that I HAVE to say that just because I’m referencing the issue as it pertains to women. But the fact is, it happens way more often to girls. And it puts us on guard with men we don’t know. The bottom line is, there is this epidemic in our society of rampant sexual abuse and rape. And no one tells, no one talks about it. And we keep these secrets and it colors our interactions with men. And because we don’t talk about it, they don’t realize that a comment from a stranger on the street is scary. They think we’re overreacting. That’s why I wrote this. To open their eyes to WHY we make a big deal out of these things. I feel like people are starting to talk about what they’ve been through. People are trying to take the shame away from the subject. I’ve written about it a few times as well, just not on this blog.

       I can’t thank you enough for your comment. I wish I could incorporate it into my already too long blog post…

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       1. Thanks 🙂 Feel free to do with it as you wish 🙂

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19. This makes me emotional for many different reasons but mostly because it mirrors my sentiments but I truly feel that even in these eloquently constructed sentences that they fall on deaf ears for most men. How are we to make a change when no one listens.

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    1. We keep trying. We keep rephrasing it and saying it in different ways.

       I do think that most men want to understand. Most men want to know why their girlfriends or wives say and do some of the things we say and do. And they want to protect their daughters from it.

       There’s a learning curve because so many of us are just beginning to talk about it.

       Yes, it’s frustrating when a guy dismisses this type of stuff. Or derails the conversation or tries to say “not all men!” when I don’t hear anyone accusing “all” men. It’s frustrating but we keep trying and we don’t shut up. Even when we’re dismissed, even when we’re told we’re overreacting, even when we’re being called “bitchy.” I love men, I love the men in my life fiercely and maybe one day my son will marry a woman who doesn’t have to explain it to him. That’s my hope.

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    2. Sarah, If it makes you feel just a little better, there must be many other men like me who are reading this, taking it in, and thinking, without feeling the need to weigh in or rebut in some way. I just spent two hours reading this sometimes sad and sometimes thoughtful and enlightening exchange.

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20. I’ve been so far removed from reading everyone lately, but I’m so glad I saw this. It is so important to find ways to be comfortable speaking up. But part of that comfort is in knowing that we’ll be heard – and that’s a huge thing, as you’ve addressed here.

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21. Now, this is a great post. Made me think of that horrible horrible math teacher who thought that touching me in front of the class was fine, or the gym teacher who told us girls that if we want to wear shorts we should think about shaving… Grr
    And so much more, creepy stalkers and whatnot.

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22. Excellent, important work, Gretchen. You’re so right about all of it. I still can’t get over the amount of men my father’s age who showed me blatant attraction when I was 12 or 13, like it was the most normal thing in the world. And yeah, I began to think of it as “normal” too.

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23. I just recently realized how frequently things like this happen to me, and how normal it has been up until now. I started telling an older woman about some of these things that men have done to me, and suddenly realized how wrong it all was. It is pretty cool to find this post right now, while I’m just pondering how not to allow this any more. However, a lot of men are super subtle about things like this, and it’s hard to stand up for myself in situations where a man can quickly deny any flirting happened at all. (“I was just telling you a story about my aggressive secretary and how much I like aggressive women… and winking at you a little… what’s wrong with that?”) Anyway, it feels good (in a sad way) to have company. If we all speak up against this, maybe we can change the world. 🙂

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24. As a man, the thing that pisses me off about reading this (beyond the situation itself), is knowing that when we’re told at least 50% of the population is suffering from PTSD amplified by their daily experience with us, most men are going to want to chime in with their version or analysis of how on or off point the perspective may be. For F*$k sake, can’t we let a woman have her say? For one fricking time. Just once? Here’s a hint: this is not about how YOU feel.

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    1. Thank you. I swear, it’s piling frustration on top of frustration when we’re trying to talk about what bothers us and then we have to divert energy to “proving” to men that it happens or to comforting men for their problems. Yes, we understand that men have problems. No one’s questioning it. At all. But when a man is not our direct family member (as most men are not), it’s not hard to become resentful when he insists that we prioritize his story over ours. It’s like if you and I are in a relationship and we live together and we both get the flu, we should care for one another to the best of our abilities. Same with our stories. We listen to one another, care for one another, and both of us feels heard and taken care of. If one of us is “sicker” than the other, the “less sick” at the moment should take care of the “sicker.” However, if I’m sick and you’re sick, it becomes incredibly exhausting for me to constantly be taking care of you when no reciprocation or concern for my health is forthcoming. I can’t feel better if I have to attend to you nonstop. And this goes double for someone I don’t even know. If I’m feeling bad, let me vent. Let me talk about how and why without challenging me or my feelings. And then, I’ll be happy to do the same for you, providing that you listened kindly and “took care” of my story, I’ll happily take care of yours. But a lot of men don’t do this. They jump on a stranger’s story as if it were attacking them personally and berate the teller. “That’s not me,” they say. “Why don’t you say ‘not all men?'” Welp, now I sure feel like you’re not one of those guys, thanks. /s 😉

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25. You’re right, Gretchen. In my case, I’m unaware and have never seen a man treat a woman like this. The only place I hear about it is online, whether it’s blog posts like this or videos posted on YouTube. Frankly, it’s unacceptable.

    Keep on talking about this until, maybe one day, you won’t have to any more.

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26. Terrific post, thanks! Perhaps one thing is missing from it(?) Douglass said best: “Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will.” ~Fredrick Douglass. In a future post I hope you’ll write more about that demand. One that comes to mind is to create a new social meme [may not be the correct term] that can be used IN THE MOMENT to shame the abuser. E.g., “STOP <insert bad behavior here" shouted very loudly 3 times in a row, for example: "STOP touching me, STOP touching me, STOP touching me". In early useage, it might lead to some unfair job losses, but after it became widely known it might well change the behaviors your post focuses on around the world(?) Of course it would never be useful in the parking lot example you gave, but imagine the impact it would have in an office setting or new age bar! And, just as they learn table manners, and where the knives, forks and spoons go, kids could be taught this technique in school, so it would eventally permeate all of society. Is this feasible?

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27. We all have to agree that there is a group of women out there who respond to inappropriate sexual harassment in the workplace, in an effort to put themselves in a position of favour, and thus help to perpetuate the workplace aspect of unwanted advances. I’ve seen this happen, and it disgusts me, and in fact may have contributed to the same person making unwanted advances toward me thereafter.

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28. Why I do not offer, or often accept hugs. -Mark

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    1. ……….and so sad that it has to be that way…….. 🙁

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29. it remains a “man’s world” — brawn over brains — fueled by testosterone and evolutionarily determined survival mechanisms — Mind renders this no longer necessary — we continue to be psychologically immature

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30. This was a powerful read. THANK YOU for voicing those things that so often stay silent and unnoticed.

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31. I shared this on my FB page with the following comment: This is a blog post that every man should read. In just a few words the misconceptions that lie in many a male brain are dismantled and clarified. For the men who have daughters (and sons, for that matter) it is especially important to read this. Please share to all of your friends and ask them to also share to their friends.

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32. Women must also be educated that this is an issue. Many are unaware of it themselves because it is such an everyday thing. We must be aware of it AND start dealing with it directly.

    In addition, many times women make the problem worse when they are the ones putting another woman down because of ‘that too tight’ dress. Women are the ones making those remarks. Whether it is out of jealousy or just agree with the men in the group, it feeds into problem.

    I know for myself, as I get older, I will say something. I will not let remarks or attitudes just slide by. And I will definitely tell a man if his behavior is inappropriate and tell them to stop. I have never had an adverse reaction to my standing up for my personal space. Ever. But I have when I let it go on.

    There is no need to be nasty about it. Just a firm response.

    So it is more than just ‘educating’ the men in your life. Women need to be educated in order for the culture to change. Stand up for yourself. Exert confidence and know who you are.

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33. I have learned to dance. The approaches started when I was 9. The molestations started shortly after. I had no affection from humans in my life at that time only neglect and abuse and I wanted affection so I became sexual. I did not want sex with grown men but I was desperate for attention and affection.

    It has remained a dance. I call it stay away closer. It is MUCH easier to deal with a man who thinks he may have a chance than one who is openly hostile and angry. And having grown up in less sexually repressed times this feels normal to me. We used to call it flirting and in the 80s it was actually fun to do at work and stuff…made the day go by faster. Now it is called sexual harassment and to me that is sad as it does not have to be unwanted and threatening.

    And I find myself still dancing and at this point I am afraid that MY dance hurts other women as it MAY be validating the men to continue doing it. But I am not willing to risk my life by ignoring them or telling them to fuck off. And I am still lacking affection and interaction. But I do not seek these comments…and I am getting old so not as much of a target…I expect at some point I will become invisible.

    I like to be sexy and look sexy. I do not dress like a street whore but I like to look attractive. Is THIS a bad thing too? Are we heading for some kind of burka or desexualised clothing as well?

    And I know how powerful testosterone is. It seems like men are now supposed to pretend that they are not interested in sex at all. I liked that interest. And now they seem scared shitless to even complement a woman that they are interacting with for fear that they will be accused of harassment..and I am not talking cat calling. It is like if they acknowledge any attraction or appreciation for aesthetics in clothing or physical attributes they are going to be accused or attacked.

    I do not know what the hell any of us are supposed to do at this point…but I have read science fiction books about desexualised societies and yeah I can totally see that happening.

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    1. Love the way you write, Brianna: that is a strong response.

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34. I really want to like this, and in many ways I do; it’s powerfully written.

    But I take issue with the way these experiences are presented as universal among women, as something that unites all women, and even as part of the essential experience of womanhood under patriarchy.

    Because they don’t happen to all women. There are many of us whom society deems too fat or too ugly even for “cat-calling”.

    This doesn’t mean we aren’t harassed in different ways, by men but also (sometimes more often) by women, and being “fat-called” is a different sort of experience than being cat-called (although they can be equally threatening and ultimately originate from the same sexist ideologies). Instead of being told by random men that they’d like to have sex with us, we’re told that they would never, ever do so. Instead of being sexually molested, we’re told that we would never be touched with a ten-foot pole. Instead of being threatened with rape, we’re told that we don’t even “deserve” sexual assault, because we are not women, but animals, monsters, garbage.

    When cat-calling and sexual harassment is presented as a common core of women’s experience, those of us who should be glad to be free of such experiences actually end up feeling even more desexualized, dehumanized, excluded from the category of “woman” that we are already constantly told we don’t belong to, can’t belong to. We don’t even exist as women.

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    1. So, here’s the thing I love about blogging and the discussions in the comments. It makes me think and so often someone leaves a comment such as yours and I realized I missed a big piece of what I should have said.

       You’re right. And while I thought about that aspect of it while I was writing, it got lost in the many edits and rewrites and whittling down of a long post. I am regretting that. I think your experience is part of all of this. And I wish I would have written it with that included. Women who are heavier than what society deems “acceptable” or not within society’s conventional standards of “beauty” are harassed just as much and in such vile and hateful ways. Because the root of the problem is that *some* men think that women exist to be sexual creatures. Our culture reinforces that idea. So if you are seen as “attractive” they will try to sexualize you or demand sex. If you are on the other end, they will hate you for not filling that role in their mind.

       I have heard that attractive women make more money in tips, this seems to apply more to women than men. So there’s that inequity as well. I assume the fear of walking through a dark parking lot alone is universal as well. Having to gauge your vulnerability in a situation?

       Sigh… if my writing here made you feel dehumanized or excluded then I am truly truly sorry. If I re-write this for submission to a bigger sight I will certainly leave room to include those thoughts. Thank you for saying all of that.

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       1. Thanks for your reply.

          Yes, both types of harassment can be severe and are rooted in the same sexist dynamics.

          (Tangential: The ‘beauty privilege’ experienced re: waitstaff and tips that you mention is a tiny tip of the iceberg of weight discrimination, actually. Women deemed ‘underweight’ by BMI earn by far the highest average wages, and are most likely to be promoted into managerial positions, and women in the upper BMI classes are by far paid the lowest wages, with very fat women the most likely to be found in physically intensive, minimum wage jobs, even with equivalent education. This is important, because it’s another example of the ways that conventionally attractive women and those who are not live in dramatically different social realities.)

          I wouldn’t say that I experience fear in dark parking lots at night, at least no more than most men. Because, at best, I’m treated as if I am ‘sort-of’ male, and, at worst, like I’m just a physical object in the way or even an active offence to people’s eyes. I just don’t have the experience of being targeted in the ways that I know are routine for most attractive women.

          It’s not that I was offended by the essay, but that I was disappointed that it’s framed (even in the title!) as a universal experience of adult women.

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          1. But you see you do experience it, even though you think it is different because of how you say you are perceived by males. You have experienced it in some way that is pointed at you.

             If you ever had a man say to you that you “run like a girl, throw like a girl, bleed for 7 days and don’t bleed, etc. then yes you have experienced it coming at you. Beauty as nothing to do with it. What we as women do is try to just let it roll on by, we have been impressed to have a stuff upper lip about it. That to me is where we learn to minimize and de-escalate it.

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             1. But you see you do experience it, even though you think it is different because of how you say you are perceived by males. You have experienced it in some way that is pointed at you.

                If you ever had a man say to you that you “run like a girl, throw like a girl, bleed for 7 days and don’t die”, etc. then yes you have experienced it coming at you. Beauty as nothing to do with it. What we as women do is try to just let it roll on by, we have been impressed to have a stuff upper lip about it. That to me is where we learn to minimize and de-escalate it.

          2. I’m not conventionally attractive either. I got a lot of teasing as a kid for that, and I rarely rarely get a cat call. However, I am aware I am still a potential rape target, because rape is not about sexual attraction– it is about violence and power. It is different from catcalls, even though cat calls are a form of violence in their own way. Anyone who doesn’t think a fat woman is vulnerable to rape should Google Fat rape and see all the rape fantasy sites that pop up– it is terrifying. Rapists have gone after old women. It isn’t us– it is THEM. Just the same as remembering it isn’t what we wear that causes rape– being a rapist causes rape.

             So I hope if you alter the article, there isn’t any implication that those of us who aren’t beautiful have no reason to worry about the assault part.

             I hesitated to say that, because I sure don’t want to make someone who doesn’t feel nervous about being assaulted live fearfully. I know it is part of the problem that we accept this awful thing of it being normal to be fearful.

             Thank you for this post. I have been in a professional meeting where as many as a third of us were highly educated and accomplished women, having to listen to a speaker tell “dumb blonde” jokes, dirty jokes where women were the brunt, and make derogatory remarks about women, only to see all of us freeze and have that weird half smile. None of us spoke up, and no man spoke up to protest. We made a beeline for the women’s room afterwards to say how we felt we needed a long hot shower to wash off the slime. We complained afterwards. But it was striking how completely unable we were to say anything at the time. It really made an impression on me how deep these habits are.

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35. I’m grateful that you wrote this post! So glad to know I’m not the only woman who feels this way about this issue. It’s so subtle it’s not something I’ve even really encountered in feminist writing before. So thank you!

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36. Thank you for sharing and I promise to listen

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37. I would like to weigh in here a little. Men are sold a product. I have come to think of it as sexual availability. If you look anywhere in the media, which is now around all the time, you see women with very little or no clothes on looking sexually available. It’s used to market everything. Money makers know it sells products, and clearly many women know it makes them a lot of money. Most men really want this product. It is presented so very well. They even tell us what kind to want. Skinny girls around 20 always look very willing. It’s not a real product, but no one is telling men that they can’t actually have what they are being told they should want so desperately. Now, say I decide I do in fact want this product. I go out into the world and look for it. It is available, but with strings attached. There are hookers, but they come with disease and jail time. No. Strippers are there to sell you the promise, but not the product. Nope. Where is it? Now, if I see an attractive woman with clothing on that suggests she may have this product available, what can I do? Cat calls perhaps to let her know I would be willing if she would be.Now I am a scary monster. Well,hell. Now what? I could go to a bar. Common knowledge is that if you purchase alcohol, or provide drugs, target market women will be receptive and happy to provide the product. Now, they call that rape. As a consumer, I have to wonder why there is so much of this product promised every single day, when there is no actual provider, unless one is willing to use immoral means.
    Now, I personally do not think this way, but it seems as if many do. I know when I see sexual availability marketed, they are not talking to me.
    What I do wonder about is why so many women are so eager to sell a product they will not provide, when it seems common knowledge that many other women must live in fear because of it? Should you not also be raising awareness among them? Teach your daughters self defense, but also teach them not to become involved in selling the mythological product that causes men to roam the streets looking for a provider.
    This is only a small part of the conversation, but it is something I think about and would love input on.
    Thank you.

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    1. I see ads for some really fancy cars all the time, many of which I would love to own. I don’t own one, and I don’t have the means to own one. I don’t, however, go around blaming BMW for the fact I can’t afford a BMW. Nor do I say to myself, “well, if it’s not socially acceptable for me to hotwire a BMW that happens to be parked near where I am shopping, why do magazines make me want to own it in the first place.”

       Nor do I suggest that people wealthy enough to drive a BMW not drive it to the mall, or the McDonald’s, “because that’s a place for poor people, and a rich person shouldn’t be showing off their wealth to those who don’t have any.”

       I don’t say such things because it’s lunacy, and in that case we really are talking about a product. Ads are ads, designed to make people look at them. But if a person has so little impulse control that the nature of ads dictates their actions (or aborted actions) in life, perhaps there are far bigger problems at play.

       There certainly are bigger problems at play one adopts the notion of “woman as product.” A woman is not a product, she’s a person. Her appearance in an ad, even a sexy one, doesn’t reduce her to the level of “desired product.” Her picture in the ad may sexually arouse someone, yes, and that makes the arousal a marketing METHOD. But that doesn’t make the woman the product itself, anymore than parking that fancy BMW on 5th Avenue makes Manhattan the product for sale.

       A model with sexy clothing on that appears in an ad is not selling herself. She isn’t saying, “Buy the rights to touch my body.” She is paid by an agency to make use of her sexual attractiveness to be a part of an ad campaign. That’s her right to make use of the qualities she has.

       But let’s just say for a moment that the sex and the women of ads ARE in fact selling their sexy selves. Let’s PRETEND the woman in the bikini in the magazine ad is actually a product for the sake of argument. That would mean that she, and only she, if offering her body, her sex, to the consumer. (And not, by the way, offering it for free because one desires it.)

       What the model is doing, however, has ZERO bearing on what the woman in your office, at the bar, or in your book club is doing. A sexy model being the product does not make the sexy woman in the tight shorts at the company BBQ a product too. One may be aroused by the woman at the BBQ just as much as by the model in the ad, but the latter’s choice to wear sexy clothing is not indicative of her desire to be a product of sexuality. It’s indicative of her desire to look sexy, to wear tight shorts, or some other desire on her part. Her lack of reciprocity for any given person’s lust is not mitigated by the fact that “models sell this kind of thing to us all the time. What are guys supposed to do?”

       What guys are supposed to do, indeed what anyone is supposed to do is to have the maturity, the restraint, the social and self awareness to accept the fact that an ad is an ad, a woman is a woman, and that being aroused by the public behavior of any of them is not a license for anything…INCLUDING complaining about how women dress.

       A lot has been said in this thread about “that’s life, for all people.” I don’t agree with that in the context it is most presented in here, but to use that same argument for my point now…not getting sex, just as not getting a BMW is life. Every woman doesn’t get every man she wants, every man does not get every woman she wants. Nor does every person get every car, amount of money, vacation or anything we want. If we can accept “that’s life” when we don’t get a thing, we sure as hell ought to be able to accept it when we don’t get to have sex with a specific human being for whom we lust, no matter what ads allegedly tell us about it.

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    2. Product?! Consumer? What kind of relationships do you have?

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38. I consider myself a feminist so it’s a very interesting feeling to read an article and think about all your past experiences interacting with women and how there are probably many women who felt they had to de-escalate or minimize or quietly aquiesce or any one of the many, many actions women have to take to navigate their existence safely with you. It doesn’t even have to be that they were worried about being physically hurt by you or verbally abused by you. Maybe it can be something as small as they were worried simply that you wouldn’t be friendly towards them so they had to let you down easy.

    I never had the birds and the bees conversation with my parents. My mom gave me the book Our Bodies Ourselves and made me read the whole thing from cover to cover when I was ten or maybe eleven but the book never got into stuff like this directly and she never told me how not to be the sort of guy who has to be handled like this. There is a difference between being good and being the least of the bad.

    Also the grace you showed to the first two guys who commented on your post was amazing. The fact that women don’t go on a killing sprees every time they get derailed and mansplained to whenever they try to talk about this stuff is some kind of miracle.

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39. The other day I didn’t ignore a shuttle driver who made anti-woman comments. I joked back at him. He was hostile until he dropped everybody else off and had me alone. He told me his ex-wife had wanted him to hit her. That he refused and she divorced him. Then married a man who killed her. He said he was so sad seeing her in the hospital with a brain injury. He was threatening me. I texted his boss while it was happening. I have sub-clinical PTSD from assault, so I was on high alert prepared to fight him. I wasn’t scared so much as fully prepared for battle. Even though his boss dressed him down and thanked me for speaking up because he said he had a six year old daughter, nobody I spoke to about it understood what this was like for me. NOBODY! And of course I had so much self doubt. Could have done something different. Should have placated the bastard.
    Imagine a woman threatening a man like this! Think she’d still have a fucking job?

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40. I just finished reading this whole post. Wow! You made me think. But you have also reminded me of the different things that have happened in my life & how I had handled them. I wish I could have read this 50 years ago. Now I have 3 daughters, 1 son, 5 grand daughters, & 2 grand sons. I will make sure they can read this. Keep up the great thing you are all doing here.

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41. I am actually in tears here. I can’t believe it. This article hit the nail right on the head. I am saving this and passing this on, to my daughter, to my grand-daughter, to my girlfriend and her daughter…..

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42. Thank you for this incredibly articulate posting, and the remarkable comments that followed. I’m one of those men who is continually shocked, and infuriated, to learn how frequently this happens. And it makes me angry, mostly at myself because I wonder how many times I didn’t see this happening in front of me. Sure, I’ve stepped in when something was overt and couldn’t be missed, but how many did I miss? We’re all trapped in our own point of view, so it’s hard to recognize another’s view unless we’re told. I’m a big guy, a really big guy, and there are times I feel afraid and watch my surroundings. I can’t imagine what it’s like for someone half my size. I spent the first half of my life blind to a lot of things. Even now, I look back and wonder how often women were afraid of me, and how I wish I could go back and apologize. Since I’ve ventured out in the social media world, I’ve learned so much that shocks me.
    Thanks for writing this, and continuing to say it. I try to listen, but after your article, I’ll try even harder.

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43. Just so you know, most men do a fair amount of avoiding confrontations too, both physical and otherwise. You may notice the big, pushy alpha-male guys more than the rest, but most guys aren’t that. Learning to shrug off the attempt of the drunk dude showing off to his buddies by trying to bait you into a fight, the guys talking smack to show everybody around how tough they are, etc etc — this all comes with the territory. The experience of being hypervigilant when walking alone at night, learning to bite one’s tongue when the boss says something awful — these are by no means unique to women.
    Women have my deepest sympathies for all the crap they put up with, but if it makes you feel better there’s plenty of “putting up with crap” to go around. Consider that when we hear about a guy punching a woman in the face, we say “she was assaulted” whereas if we hear about someone punching a man in the face we say “I guess he lost the fight.”

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44. My husband’s uncle used to chase me around the house until he got a hug. He hung all over my waist as my wedding reception was ending (I had to flirt my way out of it). Some years later he tried to hug me and I quickly stepped back and went for the handshake. This hurt him, apparently. Poor baby. My husband did try to protect me. But my father-in-law brushed it aside and said “oh he just does those things because he’s being nice”

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    1. I had such an uncle who would squeeze my legs so hard he left bruises. Sick of it I responded by calling him “Uncle Nasty”. Even though they knew he did those things since he’d done them to others my parents made me apologize because Uncle Ralph just “loves little girls”.

       It’s NOTnice. It’s NOT love. It’s sick. It’s a dominance play. It’s disgusting. I have never forgiven my parents for not supporting me. You can say so. Hell, you can yell it, scream it, and no matter who tries to belittle you out of it–stand up for yourself because nobody will do it for you.

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45. Thank you for speaking truth even though there are a few men who are too invested in maintaining male superiority to see it.

    Having been the target of three pedophiles by the time I was 8, I find myself doing a lot of looking back over my shoulder in all sorts of situations. One of the worst places is in the men’s restroom. I am very careful about getting dressed in a place where there are no windows (make sure the blinds down—really down). An open shower environment (like in the locker rooms) is a nightmare. I don’t like dark parking lots. I don’t get the key between my fingers ready, but I know how to do it.

    It started when I was 4 and I’m 5+ decades beyond my last abuse around age 13.

    I don’t think my situation is typical but I may be wrong. I do know I have not taken the “macho” response to it. That sort of thing makes me sick. “Macho” is inhuman.

    When I was in Vietnam, there was a group of guys who were conspiring to kidnap me and get me raped by a prostitute because I wouldn’t join them in their delight in degrading the women they used. I was transferred out of that unit before they could carry out their plan.

    I don’t trust men…or at least it takes me quite a bit longer and even then I am cautious about those relationships, there is a reek of male privilege in too many.

    I do know that other male sexual abuse survivors are at least as fearful if not more so than women…particularly fearful of telling their story. My story is on the web in a couple of places with my blessing and I still cringe when somebody says, “I saw you on…”

    As I work with abuse survivors, I see repeated and strong support for what you describe as what women experience in this.

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46. You absolutely need to make it known. And we absolutely need to listen. Again you must make it known for things to change or exactly as you wrote we will not know and brush off the once in a while you choose to tell us.

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47. Reblogged this on Creo Somnium and commented:
    I hate that I have to deal with this and my Wee One. I have to protect her from it, to the extent that I’m able, teach her about it, help her name it, help her learn, see her deal with in. I hate it.

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48. It Goes Both Ways. I Understand it; but What about the so Called Females; that also Prey on Men; for Equal or Much More ??? You See it on the News; In the Newspapers/Magazines; in Stores & on Social Networks. Just Go to a Club; Bars; Restaurants/Cafes; Hotel Bars; Back Stage; at Games or Concerts & Casinos & even @ the Supermarkets. It’s; Give Me; More Times than You Truly Want to Believe.

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    1. We aren’t talking about things we see in the papers. We’re talking about things which happen in our lives–to us. If what you took away from this is that “Women prey on men and that’s the real story” then you maybe need to read again. This is women talking about men actually physically harming them because they’re women, not abstract stories you once heard about women who are opportunists. And if that story is important to you, feel free to tell it, But don’t interrupt women who are talking about our issues to insist we include the things you prefer to talk about.

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49. As I was reading this, I kept thinking, “Yes!” and “I should sent this to my husband.” Then, I thought that if I were to share it with him it proves his point about why I shouldn’t stay out late by myself or with the girls or even why it’s more important for women to call & check in than it is for men. I want equality in our relationship but I also want him to think about these things as we are raising our daughter. Which is more important? Are they mutually exclusive?

    I feel that this is even a question proves everything you wrote. It makes me question how I/we can achieve fair & equal treatment. Can we change the next generation without changing ours?

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50. Not too long ago I found out that one of my best friends was sexually abused 3 years ago and it broke my heart on the inside… She’s a very good friend of mine, with whom we’ve shared secrets, chat a lot and always have a great time together.

    I cannot speak for every male in the world, nor would I’d like to, but I never thought one of my close friends would have to deal with this… I know it happens, I don’t like that it happens and yet it felt so far away from what I knew…

    I think and know that this IS an important topic and that we need to keep on talking about it, things shouldn’t have to get to “rape” to be talked about.

    Thanks for sharing

    Reply

    1. From a man’s perspective; I have personally prevented six rapes/beatings of women in my life and been a voice of reason to men who intended to harm others. I am a large man and often women look at me like I would rape them and to me this is a form of rape. The look on their faces, with FEAR, judging a stranger, projecting the thoughts of what I might do is insane. They have no idea I would put my life on the line if they were in danger. I do not date anymore because of this, like how does a man like me meet a perfect stranger and get a date when every girl is afraid of being raped? I would rather you be comfortable so you will never meet me. oh well life goes on

       Reply

       1. “I do not date anymore because of this, like how does a man like me meet a perfect stranger and get a date when every girl is afraid of being raped?”

          and this is exactly why misogyny, rape culture, sexism, etc hurts everyone (not only women.)

          Reply

       2. “I’m SUCH a nice guy, these fearful women who dare to judge me are insane. Being frightened of men because of bad experiences is exactly literally rape. My diaper is 100% full. I totally didn’t read this article or I’m thick enough that I completely missed the point, it’s the women’s fault they can’t read my mind and know that I’m their hero. The most important thing I’m taking away from this writing is that it’s bullshit that I can’t get a date because women don’t trust me fast enough. What were you saying about women having to make snap judgments about men out of fear, I was too busy being the nicest guy on earth. These bitches, man.”

          Fixed it and highlighted your underlying stupidity and prejudice for you.

          Reply

          1. as you said. They are fearful. They don’t judge. They just don’t risk Which means the woman above wasn’t ‘stupid’ when she said sexism hurt everyone. She felt for you, and you attacked her. Why?

             As for ‘it’s the woman’s fault for not reading your mind’. can you read women’s minds? No? So why do you expect them to read yours?

             What do your actions say about you? When you go on a date, what do you talk about, hopefully not about how you protect women. I’d advise against that. Talk about your dreams and your passions. Your hopes and your fears.

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             1. the “seriously?” user was replying to the “anonymous” user, not sooyoung. “seriously?” just replied to the same comment 8 mins after sooyoung did so her comment ended up below sooyoungs (but you’ll note it was not nested beneath, as it would be for a direct reply).

                *rainbow* the more you know!

       3. 🙁

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       4. Did you really just make this about you???

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          1. Trolls.

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       5. It bothers me that you refer to yourself as a man and refer to women as girls. This also contributes to the way males view females. It makes many men think it’s ok to look at females who are developed physically though the age appropriateness may not be present in the current situation.

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          1. I think someone should write a new article about internet trolls. 😉

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       6. This is silly. How many dates begin as two strangers bumping into each other anyway? There is no reason whatsoever you can’t get a date without just asking random girls on the street. Join activities and groups, meet women that way- then you’ll actually know you have something in common with her anyway. Then, if you do get a date, we willing to allow her to decide what she feels comfortable with. Maybe she prefers to meet you at the restaurant instead of being picked up, maybe she’d rather just go for a drink after an activity rather than having a full dinner-and-a-movie kind of date.
          If the safe of women is important to you, then these things shouldn’t be a problem. Sure, you may be a nice guy, but the next guy they meet, or the last guy they met might be a horrible person. You don’t know. Expecting trust from strangers is unreasonable.

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    2. Thank you Gretchen for such a well crafted presentation of sexism in our culture. In no way did I find it diminishing of women. Your level of awareness of what most women have been accustomed to accept as normal behavior from men is spot on. The brainwashing has ended. Especially because of women like yourself who have moved beyond denial and fear into an arena that most women would’nt dare enter. They are numb and comfortable and angry when disturbed. Keep on disturbing. Please. The positive note I can add is that a male friend of my daughter’s posted your link. Now that’s encouraging! A problem rightly understood disappears. And your part in bringing it to our awareness is not only courageous, but brilliantly said. Thank you❤️

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51. To self proclaimed “anti-feminists”, after you read this i would love to know what action you think will improve these issues if not education of womens rights through the feminist movement?

    Reply

    1. I don’t know, raise kids to have an open mind, consideration for others, and foster a culture where listening and communication take precedent over self-aggrandization?

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    2. Mmh good question.

       I started saying to my 5 year old son: “You know what to do when a girl cries ?… Just hug her” (OK the talking part will come when he is older ;o))

       Maybe it starts with mums explaining things to their sons ?

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52. I didn’t read through all of the comments – so I apologize if this is a repeat. De-escalation is completely a thing women do all day long, and I agree it generally leaves men in the dark.

    But I think, in a lot of scenarios, de-escalation is the strong choice. Making sexist behavior visible is absolutely an important and noble cause, but not every woman has to do it all the time. I think of that football drill where a player runs down a corridor of people hitting him with pads, and he has to hold on to the football. It’d be much easier if nobody was hitting him with pads, if sexism didn’t exist, but it’s also much easier to run through the other players, letting their blows glance off to the sides rather than dealing with each one head on. The important thing is that the player, the woman, gets to where she wants.

    My point is that de-escalation is a strength, a judo-move, that women can choose whether or not to use. They shouldn’t have to use it, of course. It’s horrible that it’s a thing we have to develop. But it’s a skill women deserve credit for. We’re awesome.

    Thanks for posting!

    Reply

    1. I disagree. De-escalation is yes, a learned behavior that aids in self protection, but it’s a preferred response because we have yet to learn how to live independently in a principally male-dominated world. Changing one’s awareness and preferences so that you live free from domination is every womans’ story; whether she’s aware of it or not.

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53. There are so many great, important points in this blog! Thank you and well done. I really liked the closing, with Listen… Listen… Listen. It’s a hard thing for most people to actually stop processing our own reactions, and listen, listen, and continue to listen. But most of us need to do it so much more than we do. My Dad was a wonderful listener. Your blog is a reminder to me to try to be better at it myself. Thanks again… I hope you continue to expand your voice, to share your story, and to broaden and deepen your own life through doing so.

    Reply

    1. Thank you Nathan. You’re a fine example of what women want from men. Respect.

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54. The issue for me isn’t that men don’t get it; it’s that they refuse to believe it when they are told. That it shouldn’t take not only this essay, but dozens or hundreds of others, each repeating essentially the same message. It shouldn’t require corroboration to “prove” that someone’s point of view is valid. When a woman says that rape culture exists, that she’s experienced it, a man who says “no it doesn’t” is actually saying “only my experience counts”. And that’s wrong. It’s wrong when anyone does it to anyone, but particularly when someone who has never been the victim of a problem tells someone who has that the problem doesn’t exist. So. very. wrong.

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    1. This is so true and even the ” good men” don’t seem to understand/believe
       .I’m not sure where primitive man ends and education starts but we don’t seem to be making much progress on this issue. Been there, done that.

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    2. This is a fair point. Some of us do believe and recognize that every person’s experience is valid and needs to be believed and respected, especially if we expect the same in return. I think too many men get wrapped around the idea that when this topic is brought up, they here “all men” and immediately get defensive and think “I don’t do this!” and mentally think because they don’t (or they don’t think they do) it discounts the argument because it isn’t “all men.” Of course the vast majority of posts and essays like this never say “all men.”
       Yes, we as men need to do better. We as a society need to do better.

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    3. And the problem is we get harassed, threatened when we are alone.
       When we walk around with the guys, it never happens…so they can never get the proof.

       But a Belgian student made a film about this. Her friend was behind her, walking in the streets of Brussels…filming.
       Another one did the same in the US I think…
       How often have I wished to have recorded the situation !!

       It’s terrible when they don’t believe it. I have been there. :o(

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55. This is why I never go to the grocery store or the gas station at night, and it’s also why I sleep in my daughter’s bed instead of my own when my husband has been calling me names for not having sex with him after watching a James Bond movie, as if he were entitled to it just because there was some sex onscreen. Even my own man doesn’t get it. It’s taking place right here in my own home.

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    1. I wonder, why you marry that guy?…If it’s taking place in your house….The question is, what are you going to do about it? It is up to you.,,,if it’s okay for you that you are being called names because you refuse to have sex with that man.

       And also why .can’t you go to a grocery at night? It so strange.
       I can go to a nearest 7 Eleven store at 3:00 A.M and no one will dare to bug me.hahahaha!

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       1. Don’t blame Jen for her husband’s behavior.

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          1. dear “i don’t do that”
             you just did

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       2. @Jeanne, that’s because you’re ugly. (stupid reply to stupid comment…)

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    2. I’m so sorry that your husband has done that. It’s completely not okay and you shouldn’t have to put up with it.

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       1. Your empathy for her is great, but it accomplishes nothing. Jeanne is right: DO SOMETHING about it. Life’s problems don’t fix themselves. It’s not about “blaming” Jen, it’s about improving her situation.

          Of course it’s “completely not okay” for her husband to be like that. But it’s also not okay children starve to death in the world. It’s not okay that people die in war that they wanted no part of. Life isn’t fair and those problems don’t go away on their own.

          And honestly, you aren’t helping her by saying Jeanne is wrong for asking her some tough questions and thus encouraging her inaction. Seriously, if her husband threatens her to the point she has to sleep in her daughter’s bed, why is she still with him? Why continue to put yourself in that situation? Do something about it. Talk to him, let him know how it makes you feel–if that doesn’t work, leave.

          We all have responsibility to take for ourselves, whether or not it’s a “fair” situation we were put in. That’s life, unfortunately.

          Reply

          1. Decisions like this are always easier from the outside. It’s neigh impossibly to understand if you haven’t been in that situation. Maybe she is worried about how she’ll support her children on her own. What if he controls the money and there isn’t enough for her to find a place to live while she finds her new life? What if she’s afraid he’ll come after her? You’re right, people need to be encouraged (read: given courage) to change their lives for the better, but making judgments based on what is undoubtedly an incredibly complex situation, based solely on a few words in a blog post comment, are never going to accomplish this.

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             1. I’m sure that there are two sides to every story. If you are not interested in a physical relationship with a partner that you claim to love, why are you still there? It must be obvious to you that you are not compatible with each other? Own it and move on, stop playing victim and respect yourself. Apply this to every aspect of your life and you might enjoy life again. Looking at a woman is not disrespectful, staring and oogaling is. Understand the difference. If you are an attractive person this will happen to either sex and if “looking” alone hurts you the issue is yours to fix, not society’s.

    3. I’m so sorry your husband does that. What an awful thing to live with.

       Don’t reply to me, Jeanne, you made your point. Respect my request.

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56. Good article.

    Not everyone has a boyfriend or husband, though.

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57. To all women:
    If your son as much as look at my daughter or ever consider making a comment, I will beat the living shit out of him!

    Why does women raise their sons to be like this?

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    1. I notice you think it is the job of mothers to teach their sons. Do you not think fathers should be stepping up here? This is just another way women are blamed, every day, for bringing their abuse upon themselves. Victim blaming at every turn.

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       1. I cannot agree with AnnieL enough. Children model the behaviour of their parents. It’s the responsibility of -all- parents to raise their children to decry this behaviour. I spend a goodly amount of time deprogramming my son from the messed-up gender norms society tosses at him at every turn.

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    2. Excuse me? Better ask why men raise THEIR sons to be that way? Your very comment about ‘beating the shit’ out of a guy for making a sexist or inappropriate comment is exactly the kind of attitude that perpetuates this kind of ugliness. Go to bed with a mirror and wake up to yourself.

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58. The trick is not minding the jerks. Jerks are men who feel insecure of women who are successful. They do those things, to attack your self esteem and make them feel better about themselves. Such pathetic isn’t it?

    The perfect way to deal with these “jerks” is make them feel unimportant and invisible. Make them feel they don’t exist and they don’t affect you.
    The more you retaliate, the more you lose to their tactics. They want attention..so don’t give it to them! If you pay attention to their innuendos, they will do it again and ruin your day.

    I have an experience once with a guy who flashes his penis in public. I am on my way to work. I saw him when I am walking and I notice that all the girls are screaming when they got on his spot. So what I did is , when I am approaching, he flasher his penis., and I shout out loud “It’s so fucking small and then I laugh out loud!”

    The next day, he is nowhere to be found on that spot! hahaha….So all the female student are relieve. It was an exclusive girls school. I came from one, so it’s not new to me. I just know how to react with those kinds.

    Don’t be afraid of these kind of men. DOn’t let them INTIMIDATE you. It should be the other way around.

    I believe that as women, we should know that these things are meant to happen. This is reality.
    The problem is not how men feel about it….because we know that they will never understand never understand)
    ., the problem is most women do not know how to react when they are in this situation of double standardism, sexism and inequality.

    Instead of making the problem big as it is already., MAKE A SOLUTION!

    It starts with ourselves….We women.

    This is just the same as being bullied., in a sense.
    I always believe that there will never be a bully., if you don’t let them bully you!

    A wise women, (regardless if you are a feminist or not) Knows exactly when and how to react and defend herself in different situation.

    What we need is solution not emphaty. And the solution begins in Us.

    If God make Men Physically Superior., GOD Make Women Psychologically Superior., so USE IT! 🙂

    Reply

    1. Great, until we get punched in the mouth for standing up for ourselves.

       Reply

       1. Getting punched for standing up for ourselves? Happens to guys all the time. Why is it that women never are concerned about what men go through in life? Oh, yeah, ’cause we’re men and we’re bad. Got it.

          Reply

          1. Because, men get punched in the face by other men and it will knock them out or hurt them. Women get punched by men and it could kill them. Also attacks on women so often are also a sexual attack. Men might beat the shit out each other, but an attack for a woman is a lot different.

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             1. Man, I deal with this all the time. Okay, a few things: despite what you see in media, women are not that much weaker than men. Getting punched in the face by somebody who is 130 lbs. is not much less painful than somebody who is, say, 170 lbs. Being kicked by a woman generally hurts more than being kicked by a man. Women have a demonstrably higher pain tolerance, and aren’t significantly likely to be that much more injured by a blow from a man than a blow from a woman.

                The rape component, while it happens to both genders, is certainly more likely to happen to a woman, yes. But it’s frustrating that so many women buy into the myth that they’re weak. You’re not. They’re not. With minimal training, a woman is fully capable of defending herself.

             2. “With minimal training, a woman is fully capable of defending herself.”
                What an idiotic statement. Maybe it would be true if you’re assuming that all the assholes who attack women never work out or do any kind of physical activity. I don’t think you have the tiniest grasp on how much training it takes for a woman to gain any muscle mass. Even when I was doing weight training classes for several months I barely gained any muscle. It would take a LOT of training for a LONG time, and even then the man will still likely have a significant height and weight advantage.
                I’m so sick of people saying women just need to learn to defend themselves- there are countless situations which we cnanot defend against and yet people repeat this crap like it’s gospel.
                Self-defense can only go so far- it is not some magical answer to end all sexism.

             3. It has nothing to do with working out. Muscle mass is of minimal use in an actual combat situation. It doesn’t matter how big you are when somebody closes your windpipe, or pops a thumb into your eyeball, or tears your ear off, or snaps your fingerbone. There are plenty of vulnerable points on the human body. With the vast majority of attackers, you do them significant pain in a short span, and they will flee. It’s not like the movies, where the bloodied attacker keeps coming and coming.

                I’ve been teaching self-defense to women for twenty+ years. You frankly have no idea what you’re talking about.

                Self-defense is not an end to all sexism, obviously. That requires education, and is a change that has occurred and will continue to occur generationally. In the meantime, idiots will still abound, and people who are frightened of them can get some confidence with the knowledge that they can stand up for themselves.

                Also, can you quit it with the insults, please? I haven’t done anything to earn your contempt.

             4. I did not insult you, I merely pointed out that your statement was idiotic. Once again, you said “With minimal training, a woman is fully capable of defending herself”
                You did not quantify, you did not say she would be better able to defend herself, you said “fully” and that is idiotic.
                “I’ve been teaching self-defense to women for twenty+ years. You frankly have no idea what you’re talking about.”
                You are not a woman, but you think teaching self-defense qualifies you to talk about what it feels like for a woman to be attacked by a man?
                I am not even a small person, nor without training, but there are dozens of situations in which that will not make the smallest amount of difference.
                In college, a guy grabbed my arm as I was walking across campus alone- there was a campus festival and there were people all over, I just left my friends for a minute to run back and grab my coat. He wanted me to come drink with him. I was lucky his friends told him to let me go. The guy was complete hammered, slurring his speech, and yet managed to turn my wrist black and blue in the space of a few seconds.
                To suggest that “minimal” training (which I have had) would have kept me safe in this instance is foolish.
                Had there not been others around, maybe I could have fought him off and most likely would have gotten a broken wrist in the process. The guy was almost falling over drunk and still could have caused me serious harm. Suggesting that a little training will keep women safe in such situations is taking the matter much too lightly.

59. I am still reading a very interesting book “so you have been publicly shamed”
    And I may not have it exactly right, but …
    The thing men fear most is being laughed at by their spouse/female friend.
    The thing women fear most is being killed/raped by a man.
    What is going on here?

    Reply

60. This was a painful read for me. It’s not because I take issue with anything you’ve written. It hurt because I know that at some point I have been part of this problem for someone without being aware of it. I’ve never been the type to grab an ass or make lewd comments, but not all of this that you wrote about above is so overt as that.
    I’m sorry and I’m trying to be better.

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61. This was not what I expected and gave me a new perspective I never really considered before, I just did not know. Or maybe did not want to know. Thank you!

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62. One thing about this article that struck a chord with me was the discussion around de-escalation. See, I’ve talked with my wife pretty extensively about gender issues, and she seems baffled by the reality you describe. She’s experienced it to some degree, but she simply puts a stop to it, precisely because she doesn’t de-escalate. She starts firm and escalates from there.

    I think de-escalation is part of the problem. Women in our society are trained to believe they can’t stand up for themselves. When they do, in my wife’s experience, the reactions they get range from confusion (men who are so ignorant that they don’t believe what they did is wrong) to apologies to anger, but rarely go beyond that.

    Yes, violence and abuse happens, and no, I’m not saying it’s the victim’s fault. What I’m saying is that being direct and straightforward is a way to lessen it — the type of men who are prone to violence are bullies, and bullies generally go after people who display vulnerability, while backing down from people who don’t seem afraid.

    Another negative side effect of the de-escalation is the “well, we talked about That Guy” thing that happens among women. That Guy might be a rapist who is getting away with it because no one has the courage to confront him. That Guy might be a socially awkward person who is entirely unaware that he’s offered offense. That Guy might be somebody being painted with an unfair brush by a jerk whose gender might just be female.

    In none of these cases does de-escalation help the overall situation. Yes, confrontation is scary and has risks, but I think it’s necessary. I think the rewards are worth it, and if my wife’s experience (which differs so dramatically from what you’ve written) is any indication, it’d make women’s lives a lot more comfortable while we go about the business of dismantling patriarchal attitudes.

    Reply

    1. I’m not one to de-escalate either but I had to learn how to do it eventually for several reasons. First, most men might not react in a physically aggressive way but are generally verbally abusive and attempt to physically intimidate women – the less one refuses to act intimidated the madder they get, sometimes up to the point of attempting physical violence. And you know absolutely nobody is going to come help you if things get worse – the cases when somebody intervenes are a minority. Especially if a physically aggressive male is involved: other women don’t think they stand a chance against him and men mostly look the other way.
       Secondly, if it’s in a work environment and is subtle enough – and depending where you work is both subtle enough and frequent enough – it ends up playing against you. Most management posts are still held by men who don’t want their sexist attitudes to be called out.
       Thirdly, it’s exhausting. Even whre not using de-escalating tactics all the time or even most of the time these situations are so frequent that we need to pick our battles.
       Maybe your wife is blessed enough to live in a parallel world where she never gets aggressive or violent reactions from entitled men or maybe she stopped counting certain instances. Maybe – depending how old she is -she is thinking about how men react to her now but not how they did when she was 20: as I get older, random men don’t pay as much attention to me or back up quicker if they do and I’m not having it… and it’s a relief!
       I can’t say all instances described in the article have happened to me, but many of them have. And telling all women to just react differently instead of addressing the men who do this is shifting the focus and responsibility to women yet again.

       Reply

       1. Thanks for your reply. Let me make this clear: I do not think any of the behaviours the article describes are rare, acceptable, or women’s fault. Quite the opposite.

          I -do- think that we can talk about how women can help eradicate this crap without it shifting focus and responsibility to them. Men are responsible for this behaviour; beginning and end of story. But I won’t disempower women by claiming they can’t provide a powerful influence in rendering this behaviour unacceptable.

          You talk a lot of about the risks involved in confrontation. And I agree. There are risks. Men who stand up to abusive men are taking risks, too. Trust me. I’ve lost jobs, lost friends, and been the target of violence over it. I don’t pick my battles; I just stand up when I see bad things going down. I’ve paid for it, and gladly. It makes a better world for my kids.

          I posed your question to my wife. She responded by saying she’s experienced aggressive reactions from men, and threats of violence, to which she’s responded with equal threats. The men have always backed down. She pointed out that she’s actually experienced more violence at the hands of women than men, which I didn’t expect. She agrees that her experience with aggressive men has lessened as she’s gotten older.

          I’m not telling all women to react differently. I’m suggesting that de-escalation is rarely helpful to anyone but the individual choosing to de-escalate. Not everybody has to push back, but it seems a little questionable to point out these offensive behaviours, and then be wholly unwilling to do anything about it.

          Reply

          1. My wife just pointed something out: we live in Canada. Sexism exists here, certainly, but not quite on the scale I saw when I lived in the U.S. So that colours her experience.

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          2. “I’m suggesting that de-escalation is rarely helpful to anyone but the individual choosing to de-escalate.”

             But it’s that individual who chooses to de-escalate that has to deal with the consequences. Yes, society might be better if women pushed back every time they experienced sexism. But it’s exhausting. Sometimes I just want to get home.

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             1. I’m not suggesting you should push back every single time. One has to act within the limits of one’s tolerance. However, standing firm is habit-forming. Once you get into the habit, you may find a) that you experience less misogynist bullshit and b) that it gets less tiring to stand up.

                One of the things I’ve had to deal with when teaching women self-defense is the utter lack of self-esteem many have, largely because of continuous de-escalation. De-escalation doesn’t do anything to make you feel good about yourself. Confrontation does.

    2. 99% of the time, when you call someone out on harassment, they will just go quiet and leave. They didn’t expect to be called out, but you only need to hear about that one girl who stood up and was beaten to death, or raped, to realise yes, there’s a 99% chance it’ll be fine, but SOMEONE has to be that 1%. I know that I wouldn’t want it to be me. You can’t undo rape, or beatings, or murder. You can’t undo those things. Women are – rightfully so! – fearful of these things happening to them, to risk it is terrifying.

       Someone who is afraid of spiders seizes up and cannot – just cannot – touch a spider, or put it in a glass. That’s what fear is. It’s not discomfort or misery, it’s crippling – paralysing. We all know a common house spider really isn’t going to do anything. I don’t personally know anyone who has been killed or grievously wounded by a common house spider. I do, however know too many people who have been assaulted in public – often at night, and often for being women (or for looking female to the assailant).

       Telling people to ‘just speak up to the harasser’ is the same as telling the arachnophobic person to ‘just pick the spider up’, only the former statement wields potentially life-threatening consequences. The arachnophobic person CANNOT pick the spider up, even with little-to-no real threat, even though they logically know no harm can come to them. The women fearing for her well-being or life does not know this, because at some point in her life she will have encountered someone who did not fare so well. Her fear is a very realistic one. You would not expect the spider-fearing person to just get over it simply because you say it’s probably going to be fine, how can you expect someone who fears for their life or well-being to call out someone who is potentially a dangerous enemy to make?

       Reply

       1. For the same reason I expect it of myself — because living in fear sucks and I don’t want to live that way. Since the jerks aren’t going to magically evaporate, I need to stand up for myself. And it’s not any less frightening if you’re a guy, so let’s dispense with that hoary old myth before it even gets dragged out.

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63. I read this and immediately knew what this was about and I applaud the writing of it.

    I found this because it was posted in a group on FB. That group has more men than women and the women who responded negatively to it and with derision saying “Never happened to me” are the ones who have to show in the group how “strong” they are in the group. One in particular is saying it never happened to her. Sorry but I don’t buy it. And then the subsequent ass kissing by other women declaring “well she must be really strong then” instead of calling her out for the lie that it is. Nobody can live in a bubble that closed up unless they intentionally put themselves in the bubble because they do know it exists. I was told we are not a collective of women and I noticed another woman commenter above mentioned that as well. I say “knock it off” you are a part of half the gender of the world and I say to the other half of the gender of the world that we already know you can go through bullshit too. Bottom line this blog piece pointed a light on something to create a conversation and it surely did that. Can we say before this happened and we read this that we were actually calling it out quite so well and having the conversation at all? Most of the commenters here surely can understand what this piece did and did it well.

    Ms. Gretchen (blog author can’t remember your last name at almost 2 am) please don’t allow yourself to minimize here too in the comments. Stand true to your message. There are going to be people as you stated in your opening, that just will not get it and cry but…but..but and while I think you are kind to address this I also want you to know that you don’t have to explain yourself too many times to count. I have already witnessed on that FB post the complete denial of what you wrote happening to someone and they take issue with my not believing them. See I think it works to their benefit to say they haven’t in a group full off men who like to see a woman hold her own (translation not admit her gender plays a role in certain POV, when it does many times) and honestly it makes the point for them even if they refuse to admit it. It is not strength to deny something , quit the opposite it is strength to admit it. Quite like white privilege existing.

    Lastly I hope you also understand how many minority women have this experience double down on them most of all.

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64. i’m a guy. and several times while reading this article i got upset. *I* never did those things… yeah maybe someone i kinda knew did, but… *I’m* not a bad guy…

    then i got to the end. maybe i never listened. maybe i was never told. maybe i just never understood, or saw the effect on others.
    maybe we should listen to each other. maybe it can be better.

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65. Do we need to make one of these for men? Because I’m not seeing a lot of descriptions here that men don’t go through. Not only do men have similar experiences women know nothing about, but it doesn’t need to have some sensationalist title about “ALL men”.

    Please these are issues that occur with everyone in society. You think that women are exclusive in how they’re being molded by society? In how people don’t understand every little detail of their existence? Are women exclusive in feeling unsafe when alone or feeling bothered when belittled? Are women the only ones given societal expectations? If you really wanted to combat sexism, these articles wouldn’t take this ridiculous form. Talk about human issues instead of making a mockery out of feminism.

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    1. If someone chooses to make blog posts about men’s problems, that’s absolutely fine. They should. This post is about women. Talking about women is not “making a mockery of feminism-” I’ve literally no idea where you got such an idea. But regardless, if someone wants to talk about women and not include men’s problems, they most certainly have the right to do so. Feminists are *not*-let me say that again for the people in the cheap seats- *not* required to talk about men to be valid.

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       1. While I agree with what you’ve just said, generalizing men is definitely not the way to go. All of these articles have no problem generalizing men, but fight adamantly against the generalizing of women. If you truly want the support of men, stop the generalization. It detracts nothing at all from this article by saying “men who do X” instead of saying “all men do X”. Practice what you preach and stop alienating the men who are here to support you.

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          1. Ctl-F “All men”

             Not found in article.

             Maybe you should practice your reading comprehension, stop taking things personally, and realize that almost NO article about feminism EVER says that “all men” do anything.

             If you read a woman’s lived experience like “grown men ogled me when I was in middle school” and your response is “Hey, not ALL men ogle middle school girls”, then maybe step back, take a deep breath, and realize that it’s not about you. Try rereading the last part of the article. And LISTEN.

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       2. That is not the point. These problems are not exclusive to women. Yet the article talks about “sexism.” Labeling these issues as sexism is dishonest. It would be the equivalent of attributing these problems to racial or religious discrimination. Sorry, it’s simply not the case. So yes, if the point of feminism is to bring to light real problems with the equality of women, bringing up issues that are not exclusive to women and attributing their causes to sexism makes a mockery out of feminism.

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66. as a guy, i´ve got something to say about this.

    First: i understand!

    Second: without trying to belittle this problem, i want to make you awere this is the same way eveny men grow up, only it´s not directly related to sexuality, thus it´s involved many times.
    We see this happen, but if we are not partecpating and oppose to our clansman, we get in trouble ourselfs…
    As a men, you´ve got to be tough, cool, strong, a real man!
    not a sensitive empatic softy!
    If you are, you´re lost…you will be bullied, excludet, beaten and so…
    this are the rules of our patriarchal, hierarchic society.
    An empatic sensitive man will be called gay, cocksucker ans so, he will get beaten, mistreated, get worse job opportunity, and worst of all be avoided by a lot o women because of hes “weakness”.
    And why? Because hes “weakness” doesent make him a good defender form the other agressiv man. And so many women chose better the worse assholes, “the winners of the bad game” cause he is the best defender.
    This are the laws of fears, we (allmost) all are ruled from.
    Only if we are strong enough to defeat our fears we can change the game.

    Be strong, be fearless …get free

    a random guy

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    1. Men have problems too. Yes. We do know this. Men have similar problems, men have different problems. That’s great. Go write a post about that. This is a post about problems women have, which yes, are different because men and women are perceived as different. And the problems men face are not because of women. I’d suggest that 9 times out of 10, the kinds of “standards” men are held to are enforced by other men. Question: how often do women insist that you “Come over here and give them some sugar?” ‘Cause that’s one I’ve dealt with. Is that kind of expectation of affection for a stranger something a man deals with on any kind of regular basis? How many times have you had your presence in a public place used as an invitation for sexual behavior? How many times have you been touched sexually in public? Unsolicited. Before puberty? Again, I’m not suggesting that men don’t have problems. I know y’all do. But let’s stop pretending it’s all equal or that we have to talk about everything when we start talking about something which involves us. Go and make your own post if you choose and link it here. This is a space for people who are talking about women’s issues, not a free for all.

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       1. Two points where I agree, and sorta wished you’d left it at that: It’s not equal. And this is not an appropriate space to be discussing men’s issues, if only because of the nature of the article.

          However, you make a number of sweeping generalizations that I’d like to address. So, first, I’ll answer your questions in order: Fairly often. Yes. Uncountable times. Many times. More than once.

          In terms of equality, while I agree that the issues both genders face stem from patriarchal attitudes, those attitudes are as often enforced by women as men, in my experience — certainly not the “9 out of 10 times” you suggest. It’s not men coming up to my son and telling him not to play with “girl toys,” it’s women. Exclusively. It’s not men telling my wife that it’s weird that she doesn’t cook and that I don’t drive, it’s women. It’s not men challenging my fitness as a parent when I’m out alone with my son, it’s women.

          It’s okay to suggest that this isn’t an appropriate venue for a big discussion about how patriarchal attitudes screw over men, too. It’s okay to say that women have it worse. They do. It’s not okay to pretend that men experience a tenth of the issues women do. As much as we honour women’s narrative on these topics, we also have to honour that of men, too. Otherwise, it’s just gaslighting.

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          1. Please do read the comments from other women here. There’s at least one who, in the course of doing her job was asked to “sit on a man’s lap.” Is that actually something that men face? And are you asked to brush it off? What do you think would happen if you did confront the woman who asked that of you? More questions: Have you ever bought a wedding ring and worn it in public so that you could ride public transportation in the morning without being harassed? I have. Did it for years. Why? Because lots of men think that unless you have a “good reason” to not want to be bothered, it’s their right to infringe on your day. And if you ask them to stop, many times they do not. Unless you imply that there is another man around who might stick up for you. Unless you imply that you’re another man’s property. This is my reality and the reality of many women. And I won’t stop talking about it because it’s not okay to be treated this way.

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             1. Yes, it’s something men actually have to face. I’ve faced it. What happened when I confronted it was I got asked if I was gay, because obviously all men will jump at any opportunity with sex, because we’re lust-crazed animals. When I went to HR to complain, I got told I ought to feel lucky — after all, a woman wanted to have sex with me. Isn’t that what all straight men want all the time?

                Nope, never bought a wedding ring to avoid being harassed on public transportation. Did wear one for a while so I could actually talk to a woman without her assuming it was a come-on. See the aforementioned “lust-crazed animals.”

                I’m not suggesting you stop talking about it. I’m suggesting you recognize that patriarchy hurts everybody, and stop assuming it’s so heavily weighted towards women. It is -more- heavily weighted towards women, definitely. But nowhere near as much as you think. Men aren’t supposed to complain or even mind it. We’re supposed to want sex whenever it’s offered, accept violence from women (after all, we’re bigger and stronger, so it’s not a big deal when something gets thrown at your head), etc. etc.

                We go through all this stuff. Most men don’t even realize it’s happening or that it’s wrong, because we’re conditioned in very specific ways. I’m extremely grateful that I was raised by parents who didn’t buy into gender norms, and that I’m able to see it isn’t right on -either- side of the equation.

          2. Also, I didn’t say we should ignore men’s stories. We should honor each other. But it’s really hard to honor the stories of people who say “You’re lying, I never saw anything like that!” or “Stop complaining, others have it just as bad/worse!” Seriously, I’ll listen when you talk (the general you) when you start listening when I do. We’ve heard men’s experiences. Time and again. Line up how many men’s stories exist in the world. Some good representations, some not so good. Then look at how seriously the world takes them. Look at how the men are treated as subjects of the stories. Then look at stories which feature women. Rarely are women treated as subjects, rather we’re objects. And the stories are most often told from the POV of men, not women. Women telling our own stories are neither listened to nor believed in the mass culture.

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             1. Yep, I definitely agree that’s a problem, which is why I said that going on about men’s stories isn’t appropriate in this forum. The only reason I brought it up was because your view of what we experience was so skewed. “We should honor each other.” Yes, agreed.

                And now I’ll shut up about it, so we can get back to the point of the article. I’ve said my piece, and hope you’ll consider that men might have it far worse than you seem to believe.

       2. Quote: “And the problems men face are not because of women.”

          I was supposed to show you the (indirect) connection:
          Quote: “and worst of all be avoided by a lot o women because of hes “weakness”.
          And why? Because hes “weakness” doesent make him a good defender form the other agressiv man. And so many women chose better the worse assholes, “the winners of the bad game” cause he is the best defender.”

          and with this women unvolontary enforce the vicious circle….

          best regards

          a random guy

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          1. That’s ludicrous, and buys into the whole “women don’t pick nice guys because they like assholes.” It’s simply not the case. It’s buying into the “nice guy” myth. Most self-described “nice guys” are nice because they think it’ll get them laid — perhaps in a roundabout way (“If I’m a dashing prince, she will be my princess!”) etc. etc. — but it’s pretty much all about objectification.

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67. I’m really shocked at how many people suggest that de-escalation is either a) totally natural or b) a bad habit that should be broken.
    It’s especially annoying because, while the original post draws attention to the de-escalation that many are oblivious of, the author doesn’t appear to me to be advocating for women to necessarily change their behavior, but for everyone to be more aware of it. To be aware and listening to what may be hurting others in our lives.
    Some here are advocating that women fight back instead of de-escalating, while others argue that de-escalating is normal, but you’re once again bringing it back to what the victim is doing. It’s not about what the victim did- believe me, she is second-guessing herself about this- should she have stood up to that guy, or, would he have left her alone if she’s ignored him?
    I feel like at this discussion about what the victim should or should not do totally misses the main point of this article, which is about human compassion. It is about not being dismissive of something that may hurt your loved one, however insignificant that thing may seem at first.

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    1. Everyone in life has to stand up to someone in some form or another–both men and women. This is life. You can either wait around for someone to change, or you can be proactive and make them change how they treat you.

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       1. All right then. You go find the girl I went to high school with, and tell her to be a little more proactive about changing the way her boyfriend murdered her.

          I’ll wait.

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68. My husband and I were watching a tv show the other night, where one of the men in it was a very capable killer. He had to defend himself in a horrible situation and he dispatched his assailant quickly and efficiently. Both my husband and I expressed that it must be nice to know that you could do such a thing if you really had to. And upon talking about it – it became clear that he wanted to be able to do such a thing so that he could be able to hurt someone if he had/wanted to whereas I wanted to be able to do such a thing so that no one could hurt me.

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69. Are you just championing Burqua? Hope not…then you must know that men have to go through a lot lot lot more, where girls are trained to sit and judge, even though most are totally clueless. It is like knowing that this girl is totally into you, the way she is looking, but the same girl will laugh out loud alongside friends when you talk to her. Guess whom the people around will support anyway? It is when your girl friend walks out on you just because some other guy showed her more money. It is when you are doing all the heavy lifting, waiting while you dress up, holding the door for you, picking up the tab. And “you” can be anyone – sister, girl friend, wife, a casual date, a boss. I can go on and on and on about many more situations, like you did! But most men also learn how to deal with “it”, they don’t crib, simply because they are better at dealing with “it”.

    Bottomline, girls won’t have a problem if they really want to be EQUAL. Don’t expect privileges without the downsides of it.

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    1. I’m not sure what you’re responding to, but this article is about women fearing speaking up about the sexual harassment they experience on a daily basis because they fear being murdered and raped.

       Please don’t derail this conversation. It is an important one. It is not about girls who like money, or girls who like X, Y, Z. It is also not about the high, unattainable standards set before men. This is about women who are scared for their lives, so they stop calling out harassers. It is about the belittling these women face on a daily basis when they finally do decide to speak up about it, because they’ve outwardly never mentioned it before (because they try to de-escalate the issue in their minds), and what you’re doing is belittling the experiences of these women by – instead – attempting to draw attention to your own issues.

       Write a blog about your own problems, and the problems you see with the unattainable standards men face in this society. Link it to me. I will read it. I will listen.

       But for now, what you’re doing is the opposite of listening. Listen, and others will listen to you when it’s your turn. This space is not the space for your turn.

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70. This is classic PTSD.
    Open discussion like this is great for us men who care about the women in our lives.

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71. Thank you G. Kelly for your honest and thorough article! I have shared this with friends and family and also will share with our work diversity committee. We are dealing with Unconscious Bias and interpretation/perception issues. This article can serve as part of an antidote to that “she’s over-reacting/too sensitive, etc.” line of thought.

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72. That article is spot on…thanks for putting my life experience as female into words. It is second nature to de-escalate. And not even be aware that I’m doing it most of the time.

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73. Reblogged this on Changing Journey.

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74. On behalf of good men:
    Not going to say that this is ok. But women have made a pretty strong effort *not* to accept protection from men. Most men are not sure how we are supposed to help but not be seen helping so that women feel independent.

    This sort of behavior was nonexistent before the “liberation movement” because her father or husband would kill the offender. Now, when we step in to take that role, we are portrayed as mindless brutes, or childish.
    If we aren’t going back to those gender roles, then women simply have to defend themselves. It’s as simple as that, unless I’m missing something here?

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    1. Actually, this behaviour has been around for a very, very, very long time. As the rights for women have increased in number, it’s become more obvious, but women have been de-escalating for as long as time. Perhaps the reason you feel this behaviour recently sprung into existence is because people are finally speaking up about it – and loudly.

       This article is not asking for the protection of men. This article isn’t even asking people to stop catcalling. It’s not asking for anything other than for people to listen, and not belittle the issue when women speak up about it.

       There are not simply two options. This is not a case of ‘well, we can beat up those jerks, or you’re on your own’. That would be ridiculous and yes – barbaric, brutish, and juvenile. There are a number of ways men can help.

       -Listening is the biggest one. Accepting these experiences, and not defending the behaviour of these harassers, simply because the listener feels men as a whole are under attack. Listening – and not denying, defending, or belittling – reminds the woman that some people can be trusted, and that is the first step to gaining confidence to call out others. Women want to know that people will not just stand by and watch her be murdered if she calls someone out. It’s happened. That’s actually happened. We – as humans – have to ensure our community trusts each other – and we have to back up those promises, which brings me onto my second way to help.

       -Calling out other men (and women) who make lewd, misogynistic remarks – even when they’re not directed at any specific woman, or any women present… ESPECIALLY when they’re not directed at any specific woman, or any woman present. Calling out the person making such remarks reminds them that it is not okay to harass people behind their backs… and if they know they can’t even make a remark behind someone’s back without being called out, they’ll think twice about making remarks in public to someone’s face.

       -Giving support and help to confront people, when asked for it. A woman may never ask you for this help, but should she ask for it, do not respond with ‘well, you didn’t want us men to beat up these jerks, so you’re on your own now’, or ‘this is your problem, not mine’. Go with her, back her up. Even if you don’t say a word, your presence holds weight. Perhaps just having you around makes her feel safer – that is a compliment; take it as such.

       The attitude of ‘we want these men to stop what they’re doing, so we beat them up’ actually feeds into the attitude of ‘you can get what you want with violence’, and that attitude directly leads to ‘I want this, and will hurt people to get it’. That last one sounds an awful lot like sexual harassment or assault, or mugging, or murder. A violent attitude towards this will not solve the problem. It’s part of the problem.

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75. Reading things like this makes me feel obligated to have kids. I’d like to think I’m one of the guys that’s never done any of this stuff. I was raised to be respectful and gentle toward everyone, particularly women. Hippies for parents and all…But I see how many men get such a screwed up idea of masculinity from their screwed up fathers, and it makes me think I’m almost obligated to raise a son that will treat women right…or a daughter who would expect to BE treated right. The more people like that in the world, the better.

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76. I have experienced just what you are talking about but I also recently heard a professor (who studies these same kinds of things on racial matters) call the incidents micro-aggressions. It puts people in “their place” (often unconsciously by member of the dominate group: men or white men in our culture, could be another group in another culture, I guess). With women, of course, there is not only the threat of violence behind it but the threat of sexual violence. But the need for de-escalation has also been required from black men who have risked their lives by standing up for themselves. It seems it is all part of the same thing.

    Some of the people who do not experience this micro-aggressions do not understand because you cannot tell them about every one. It is not just the occasional big thing but the tiny little things every day. That is what is difficult to get someone who doesn’t experience these things to understand.

    I remember a TV documentary about the problems between men and women that started off with a quote that said something like, “Half the world does not understand that the other half is afraid of it.” In some parts of the world, instead of training men to not be aggressive towards women, they have tried to make the women disappear behind full face and body coverings.

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    1. Thank you for clear thoughts on this. Your last sentence corroborates the first sentence of my comment a little above. Also, you are spot on when you say that micro-aggression are played differently in different cultures. I am a good looking man from India, where we have multiple divisions along religious, linguistic, caste, creed and even neighborhood lines. And then I traveled/connected with the whole world, and witnessed these being issues in most places. Problem is, good people don’t come out and stand ground. I try to be an exception.

       I am very respectful towards women, and treat others like I want them to treat me. And I have been subjected to multiple situations:

       1) racially abused by dominant group in different countries,
       2) non-cooperation from others because key people (and pretty girls) happen to like me,
       3) girls who are only too happy to have one-night-stands with others talking marriages on first date,
       4) bullies trying to be violent (I’ve been shot at twice! Thankfully both time they missed. And I am not even beginning to talk about other mild forms of violence including the verbal ones).
       5) terrified for being hit by a car driven by some dumb girl with lipstick, drinks, and cell phone in hands.

       My observations about girls are:
       I) they don’t follow their conviction or common sense enough,
       II) their obsessive compulsion about playing it safe, and judging men by what they see in paid media, deprives them of most good men out there,
       III) if some guy is reasoning with a girl in this day and age of busy lives, he is not being ‘disrespectful’ or ‘naming and shaming’.

       Those girls who are normal, get it all..one of them is my wife 🙂

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77. I’m not a fan of the term “victim blaming” as a way to shut down certain arguments. victim hood ends when we start taking responsibility for our experiences. victim and abuser create each other. stop being a victim in life, take full responsibility for your experiences, and the abuser will vanish. it worked for me.

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78. This is brave. Not the long and sad list of the unfair burdens of femininity – that’s needful to know and, as a man, I’m aware but, as was mentioned, only in a watcher’s position. Second hand. The bravery is the admittance that its not something that constantly intrudes into our awareness, as it does yours. We dont see hear or sense it. We have versions of it and mirror-opposites of it but they’re not shared either.

    I once saw a woman, in a parking lot, look past me and, with a suddenly frightened eagerness, fish her keys out to get into her car. She was clearly shaken. I looked behind me to see who was tormenting her……….. there was no one. She hadn’t seen me as she approached and when she did, noticed instantly that we were relatively alone in a darkened parking lot. Something I’d not even noticed. She was terrified and there was nothing I could do to make her know she was safe, except get quickly into my car and distance myself.

    She could not have known that I’d have defended her, in that parking lot; if she’d been attacked. Not knowing is the problem. Thank you for shedding light.

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79. I’ve lost all hope that men actually care. Yes, some do, but there are just too many who don’t give a damn and no amount of talking or examples are going to make a difference. Look at Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. He just doesn’t get it. Doesn’t get one thing about women and he probably never will. There are just too many people out there who are ignorant and don’t make any effort to see life from another’s eyes. And even if we can get through to some, the waves of jerks keep coming in a never ending sea of people who want to harm others.

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80. Imagine a world in which we were simply Respected.
    A world in which we were not only listened to, but actually Heard. Imagine a world in which we were even acknowledged – not only our words and needs; often our very presence.
    Imagine a world in which our perceived value and purpose for existence extended beyond simply being of service for some need. And sadly, this applies less often to the strangers we encounter or the business associates, and more often to the men in our lives.
    BEING minimized, marginalized, and disregarded is a subtle, frequent and pervasive means of dis empowering us, and influences how we perceive ourselves and interact in relationships, often without our even being cognizant of it.
    Will it ever change? CAN IT ever change, and how to go about it? I don’t know.
    All I do know is that, while reading this, my mind was being flooded with memories – not just hundreds; Thousands of memories of times, situations, and experiences of every single one of the incidents mentioned herein, and many far beyond those mentioned here, that have occurred in my life and continue to, even at this ripe old age. And hundreds more I’ve heard about from friends, or that women simply shrug off and joke about, because what else can we do?
    For the rare guy who might actually have read this far, if you think these things don’t matter, think again. These things, collectively, are a powerful force that shapes how we live our lives, where we go and when, where we live, what we wear, how we comport ourselves, what we say and how we say it, who we spend time with, the jobs, professions, and even leisure activities we choose, the relationships we enter into, who we marry, and how successful and enduring that union is. If you think it doesn’t matter to YOU, think again. That useless old lady you could easily have helped down the stairs might be ready to give $1000 to the next person who simply shows her any consideration. That one thousandth comment you just ignored from your wife or girlfriend might be the one that made her decide to leave you. The boring neighbor you couldn’t be bothered to wave at might have a son or husband who is the president of the company you just applied for a job with. The invisible aunt you can’t be bothered to acknowledge or respond to might be the one who just changed her mind about leaving you a huge inheritance. The woman you just cut in front of to take her taxi from the airport might be the one flying in to interview you for that position you want. And the pregnant woman you couldn’t be bothered to stand and give your seat to on the bus? Might be carrying the daughter whose ass you will be pinching 14 years from now.

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81. Very interesting post, myself I see as an equal to women no better or worse. I may have been part of the problem throughout my life but I try to be a better person from learning from my mistakes. I have four older sisters who instilled in me how to treat the opposite sex. It is difficult for both sexes to refrain from not listening or acting out on our primal natures due to programming from our peers. I feel society is geared towards this behavior, our media perpetuates this behavior. Women also portray these same traits, many time I have been called sweetheart, had my butt pinched and have been whistled at by woman. This is a human problem, Men and Women are the ones partaking of this debilitating behavior and it affects both sexes. We all are responsible for our own actions, as individuals we can make a change happen in all things, stop the stereotypes, everyone has a choice in this matter. It is great to vocalize something that needs to be changed and this topic definitely is that. But it is not so one sided as this article suggests, it takes both sexes, working together and not making broad judgement. We are all unique individuals trying to survive in a society that is a free for all, we should be looking to change the underlying problems within our society that breeds this sort of behavior in both sexes and practice patience and tolerance

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82. Reblogged this on The Voice of My Hair and commented:
    I’m glad someone put it in words…

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83. Reblogged this on and commented:
    “The next time your girlfriend tells you that the way a guy talked to her made her feel uncomfortable, don’t shrug it off. Listen.

    Listen because your reality is not the same as hers.”

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84. I’m male and this applies to me well as I assume t applies to anyone whom traps problems internally to avoid external repercussions. I’ve do so (I belive) in part related to being physically and emotionally abused as a child which provides a horrific and potentially not to shocking of a parallel.

    The problem for me has become when I became good at this action of hiding feelings – they are actually hidden. So while asking for people to listen is helpful, it’s also on us to understand when to speak and whom to trust. It’s easier that I would like to admit to hide the problem and blame the environment but I can’t do so without acknowledging my own inaction. And though past experience has rewarded my deescalation how do I know I’m not over-reacting now.

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85. Reblogged this on hellomanblog.

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86. Love this! I to have been sexually harassed since childhood and was raped in college I couldn’t even tell my fiancé or parents at the time. I look over my shoulder every day. Thanks for this article. More people need to read this!

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87. I don’t usually comment on things like this, but this just hits a nerve. I’m one of those men who NEVER acts that way, and this article pisses me off. Not just because it implies that all men are the same, or that it implies that most men are pedophiles, or that it implies that all men are rapists waiting to happen, or because it implies that a man would rape a woman in a Home Depot parking lot and everyone would ignore it. It pisses me off because women are just as responsible for this behavior as men because the majority of women WANT to be treated this way. I wish I had a nickel for every time a friend has come to me as “the trusted guy friend” to complain about her abusive, disrespectful, douchebag boyfriend, and then, when she’s finished getting her emotional needs met by the respectful guy, she goes home and sleeps with the abusive one. Does she really think the abusive, disrespectful behavior is going to stop if she keeps rewarding it like that? She’s not “de-escalating” it, she’s not “ignoring” it; she actively encouraging it! The truth is, women ignore men when they’re respectful because respectful men are boring. So, here’s an idea, stop SAYNG you want men to be respectful and ACT like it. Give some positive attention to the nice guys instead of ignoring us. Stop sleeping with the disrespectful guys just because they workout eight hours a day and drive expensive cars. Stop complaining about the MEN in your life and start complaining about the WOMEN. Maybe if fewer women insisted on dating only football player rapists, because even though he beats her he’s “just so hot,” maybe if fewer women only wanted to date “bad boys,” maybe if fewer women dated abusers just because he has lots of money to buy her things, maybe if fewer women BEGGED for this kind of treatment, more men would continue to be respectful even when it obviously gets them nowhere with women (because that’s not the behavior you reward), maybe more men would be respectful because being a bastard wouldn’t get them everything they wanted (like it does now), maybe more men would act like me! Stop painting me with the same brush as those bastards, and start yelling at your girlfriends to stop rewarding men for this kind of behavior. If you want men to stop treating you this way, ACT. LIKE. IT.

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    1. “I’m one of those men who NEVER acts that way.”

       Except the way you acted when you posted this comment, right? Myth debunked.

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       1. Wow. Someone missed the point entirely.

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          1. Nope, actually pretty sure she got it straight on. Claiming women beg to be abused, and acting as if some majority of them was to date “football player rapists?” That pretty much takes you out of the nice guy camp, and into the “sexually frustrated pseudo-nice guy” camp.

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             1. “That pretty much takes you out of the nice guy camp, and into the “sexually frustrated pseudo-nice guy” camp.” This assumption is mutual.

             2. Noooo. She missed the point. The point of the comment, which was half the point of the article to begin with, is that women are just responsible for this behavior as men are. Stop complaining about it and DO something. Am I the only person here who’s ever heard of B. F. Skinner? If you reward the behavior, it will continue. Stop sleeping with your disrespectful boyfriend/husband. Stop ignoring the comments you find distasteful. Stop smiling when someone does something you find offensive. If you smile, that sends the message that you enjoyed it. If you act like you enjoyed it, he’s going to do it again. If you keep rewarding the guy who beats you with sex, he’s going to continue beating you. (And, yes, that IS begging for it. I worked with sex offenders and abusers for years, and I know how they look at this. If she continues to give him what he wants, he’s not going to stop because he has no reason to.) If you want it to stop, you have to stop just saying it and ACT LIKE IT. Stop expecting the men around you to change without you changing yourself.

             3. You’re operating off the presumption that women know they have a choice and feel empowered to take it…which is pretty much the point of this whole article.

             4. If you are unwilling to change your reaction to the negative behavior, then it will continue because these people will have no reason to stop. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

    2. You clearly don’t know the first thing about women or maybe people in general. See, there’s this term, and it reads, “insecurity.” While women do fall victim to abuse in their lives, they are NOT actively seeking that out. Holy moly, that is an insane idea. And really the main reason I’m replying to you. “We accept the love we think we deserve.” Ever hear that line? Women don’t date the “bad guys” ’cause they just LOVE being hurt. They keep coming back because they don’t know where else to go. Way deep down inside, they figure this is how they are meant to be treated. Since childhood, something happened to make these women hate themselves. But because we, as humans, are uncomfortable with the idea of putting ourselves down, these women let someone else do it. And when they fall in love with that someone else, they stay, because they figure no one else could fall in love with them. Keep in mind, this applies to some men, too. DON’T WANT YOU TO THINK I’M OVER-GENERALIZING. God forbid. C’mon now… stop assuming your perspective is 100% right. No one is saying ALL men are abusers and rapists. Who said that? Seems to be just you. It’s all in the way you look at life, my friend. We are all guilty for some things… I could guess what you’re guilty of, but that just wouldn’t be fair, so I won’t. Point is… it’s very true that most women don’t feel all together safe and comfortable in this male-dominated society. If you want to see change and if you are a “good” guy as you claim to be, show us. And if that doesn’t work, keep trying. Change YOUR perspective. Move on. Be honest, but do not ever assume you know more about something than someone in the thick of that something. I don’t feel sorry for you, because I think it’s great that you feel so passionate something, but I do think you need a little female ‘lovin in your life.

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    3. Guys who think of sex as a “reward” are Not Nice Guys. You are sharing the EXACT SAME BELIEFS as that guy who shot up the sorority at UCSB. You don’t understand the difference between “abuse”, “beating”, “disrespect” and “rape”, since you use those words interchangeably. Your attitude is unbelievably distasteful to pretty much all women because it shows that you think of them as objects to be “won” or “lost”.

       You think sex is the goal of a relationship with a woman, and that friendship is some sort of booby prize. You probably use (or at least appreciate) the word “friendzone”.

       You’re not a nice guy. You don’t respect women, though you pretend to be friends with them when you want to get in their pants.

       I doubt you’re a rapist. But you are a perpetuator of rape culture, because you treat relationships as primarily an outlet for men’s physical desire rather than first as a friendship and emotional connection.

       You have a twisted view of reality. You claim to have worked with sex offenders and rapists, and yet you don’t know the slightest thing about their motivations (insecurity, self-hatred, possibly being victimized themselves at a young age). I suspect you are exaggerating your ‘work’ with these people, or you wouldn’t suggest “stop ignoring comments you find distasteful” to someone living under the shadow of domestic violence. You’d understand that if someone truly is being raped or beaten by a domestic partner, there are many things that need to happen before that person can leave, and that she’s often putting herself and/or her children in more danger by attempting to do so.

       Also, you’re quick to anger. You get angry when women express their feelings, or tell you that you don’t understand them, or otherwise show that they are subjects, not objects. That’s actually pretty scary. Maybe you’d never hit anyone, but anyone who got in a relationship with you is pretty much signing up for psychological or emotional abuse. Disrespect + lack of empathy + anger = abuse.

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       1. You talk to me about being quick to anger? You’ve made up this entire imagined history and personality based on three or four paragraphs into which you are reading the wrong tone. You think that expecting women to voice their oppinions makes me abusive? If a woman’s boss slaps her on the ass, and she responds by smiling and saying boys will be boys, she has no right to expect it to stop because she has condoned it. How is someone supposed to communicate with a person who intermittently and unpredictably says the exact opposite of what she really means. If you’ve implied, through action or inaction, that the behavior doesn’t bother you, how is he supposed to know that it does?

          On another note, I resent your childish assumption that I believe sex is the only purpose of a relationship. You don’t understand male sexuality. If a man’s partner is having sex with him, he sees that as meaning everything is ok with he relationship. Where do think the concept of makeup sex came from? If a woman never tells a man he’s offending her, and instead has sex with him, how is he supposed to know there’s an issue? What motivation does have to change his behavior if she’s saying, in no uncertain terms, that nothing is wrong?

          It’s also worth noting that there was nothing of substance in your “argument.” It was just a personal attack. I have no problem with a discussion getting heated, but when you try to pass off anger as an argument, you’re just being childish. Grow up, kid.

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88. Every boy in every middle and high school needs to learn this by heart. (In other words, it deserves a place in the curriculum. It is more important than STEM.) And every girl in those schools needs to feel the surge of confidence that comes from knowing that their school and society around them is making that happen and making sure the message gets through, makes sense, and becomes a new way of life.

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    1. That is the biggest load of horse shit I have ever seen typed out on my computer screen. Luckily, nothing like that will ever happen.

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89. Blessing on Humanity from Mehdi Imam and Adam Jesus Father and The Son with Holy Spirit.
    According to this Adams Mother or Imam wife is mother of all believers I would like to advise all who believe epically Muslims to be careful when commit adultery ( Zanna ) because certain thing cannot happens according to the divine interruption of Quran and other scriptures.
    Written by Mehdi
    511 Pine Street Bristol Ct 06010

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90. You realize everyone does this, right? Not just women? Men brush off “offensive” comments all the time. Men brush off sexism. Men bottle things up. Men are harassed, yes, sometimes by women, and laugh it off. Virtually everyone everywhere encounters actions and statements of others that make them at least a little bit uncomfortable. The difference is that most of us are adults about it and realize that part of living in a society with wide swaths of different people means encountering some bad apples. Getting worked up over usually harmless actions of very few people seems petty, which is why people continually ask you why you do it.

    From world hunger to poverty to disease to war to an overreaching government to an apathetic populace, there are much bigger issues. On top of this, these issues can be resolved at least in part. You’ll never be completely comfortable or safe, it simply won’t happen. People will still do harm to others and you’ll still be offended by someone insisting they pay for you on a date because they are the man. Isn’t it better to try and suggest to people what makes you uncomfortable and ask for accommodation rather than suggesting everyone tip-toe around to avoid stepping on toes that are in the aisle? Or to fixate on larger issues and take any real or perceived slight in stride? Stopping to smell the roses is great. Stopping to smell the petty bullshit is not.

    The greatest irony here is that you think women are alone or different in this issue, creating a false gender norm and insisting people listen harder because they just don’t get it. We get it, what we don’t get is how or why you don’t understand that these issues are petty and universal. We all can handle it, why can’t you? Please reflect.

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    1. “We all can handle it, why can’t you?” Because when a guy is on top of us, trying to unzip our pants, we’re much less likely to be able to push them off. Guy on guy? Now, that could more potentially be a fair fight. And that’s just fact…unless of course you’re Ronda Rousey. Why can’t we be more like Ronda Rousey? I think that’s the better question…

       I think it’s important to note that, while you have a point–I think this kind of abuse DOES happen to both genders–women just simply don’t have the tools, resources, or MUSCLES to make it a fair fight. Thus, many women choose to play life on the safe side…ya know, far away from the threat of being raped, because we know for certain that we’ll lose that fight. And I mean that figuratively, too. The only reason men get so defensive about this subject is because 1) they know it’s true and 2) they know nothing about it.

       Also, you call for action. You want women to voice their concerns. “Isn’t it better to try and suggest to people what makes you uncomfortable and ask for accommodation rather than suggesting everyone tip-toe around to avoid stepping on toes that are in the aisle?” Um… read the article again. That’s what is being said here… That we educate men on how we are feeling so they are more aware. If you’re enraged at THIS writing, steer clear of any more mainstream feminist writings online…you’ll go insane. What you just read, or didn’t, is mild in comparison.

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       1. Stephanie, as somebody who has taught self-defense to women on and off for twenty years, I have to differ with you. Women do have the ability to defend themselves quite successfully, they’re just trained not to believe it. In terms of lower body strength and pain tolerance, women frequently have men beat — it’s just as basic a biological fact as men’s generally superior upper body strength.

          I have to admit — when I’m teaching a woman how to fight, when a woman lands her first real punch without pulling it or flinching as it lands? The look on her face when she realizes she doesn’t have to be weak or afraid? That’s satisfying.

          You will not lose that fight for certain. You can stand up. You don’t need to be Ronda Rousey, any more than every guy you face will be Mike Tyson.

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          1. I think it’s SUPER important for women to stand up for themselves, and take those classes. Because you’re right in that they do have the potential. They just have to realize it. Until they do, they’re going to inevitably feel defenseless. But it’s absolute nonsense to assume that women LIKE to be defenseless. That is so incredibly false. I mean maybe some do, but certainly not the majority….

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             1. Yep, and that puts the lie to the whole “just stand up and stop being abused.” Many women are conditioned to believe they’re harmless, or that they deserve it, etc. etc. They de-escalate because they’re told over and over that to do otherwise is to court -certain doooooom-. Unfortunately, it’s not just the patriarchy telling them that now, it’s also become the litany among feminists, which is a disturbing trend.

91. Jesus, this is a part of life. Men deal with shit all the time as well and you don’t hear them bitching away. Drop your shitty cause and stand up for something more noble & worthy.

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    1. You are a prime example of the problem of what male privilege has provided you with, that or you are some angry troll…

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92. Reblogged this on Yes… And Maybe With You and commented:
    An excellent piece on the role women play every day in their own self-defense. I am fortunate to have an army of close male friends who make me feel secure that they would protect me, but they don’t go on every date with me. I engage in these behaviors as well.

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93. Women need to learn self defense. A real program that lands blows and teaches you how to fight for your life. Impact Personal Safety in Los Angeles is a model program; we fight back against fully padded assailants until we land what would be a knockout blow. We also learn how to spot, avoid, diffuse and escape without having to engage. EVERY female from 9-10 on up needs to know these techniques. They would change the world.

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94. Gretchen, you are absolutely right about this. I think I get it now, but it took a long time. I know it must suck to tell someone about this and for them not to believe your experience was quite what you’re telling them it was. I know I’ve done that, and all I can say in my defense is that it is difficult to understand when someone else’s reality seems to be so totally different from your own experiences. I just did not understand how pervasive the problem is.

    A lot of men don’t get it, and you are right that we need to be told about it, and that men need to listen.

    Guys, if you’re like me, at first it’s gonna sound like they’re telling you there is a sizeable percentage of men who are actually lizard people. But if enough women tell you about them, and you start to pay a little closer attention to the things going on around you, after a while it becomes clear. The lizard people are real.

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95. Reblogged this on Adventures and Musings of an Arch Druidess.

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96. Good write and good read. I agree with most here. Its not something that gets talked about much. Yet everyone has there own perspective as well in these matters. I wish more people were genuine enough to speak up, say what’s on there mind, set it free. Look forward to reading more from you. Thanks.

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97. You should change this to, “The thing SOME women do..”.
    I have Black Belt in Taekwondo, I’m not going to be some girl that walks around calling herself a victim because Feminism is Trending at the moment.

    You make women look weak.

    You’ve probably got a t-shirt that has “I drink male tears” on it too.

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    1. So you karate chop your boss after he grabs your ass?

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       1. I suspect her boss doesn’t grab her ass because he has no confidence that she’ll take the abuse.

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       2. Sexual Harassment – be an adult and go to HR if they do nothing take it higher. Respect yourself enough to say something

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          1. Yes. Or turn around and call him on it, right there in front of everyone else. Don’t tolerate it or ignore it. Your choice. Either stand up for yourself and be a strong woman, or stay home where no one can offend you. Damn, this is ridiculous. The sexual revolution and the 60s did more damage to women than anything else every has. I was growing up then, and I was working in corporate America in the late 70s and 80s. and now the chickens are coming home. We are no longer teaching our young men how to treat women and what is appropriate behaviour and we are not teaching our young women how to stand up for themselves not to tolerate the bullshit. I had ONE boss try that ONE time, on my last day at that job, when I was a teen. I turned around and walked out of the room. I didn’t denigrate myself, I acted like an adult (which he didn’t) and walked away. He apologized. Stop acting like a victim and do something about it. This stuff just pissed me off.

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             1. so you’re saying that there was no such thing as rape or sexual harassment before the sexual revolution…? The point of this article is that not all men take what they see as “rejection” as well as a simple apology.

             2. Yes, stop and call him on it if you are fortunate enough to be in a job that you CAN. That you are protected. That you won’t be fired. If you are fortunate enough to have this job, absolutely call him on it, report to HR and follow through. But, please don’t dismiss those who have to grit their teeth and take it because they must keep this job.

             3. This may not reflect your character or experience, but it speaks to a lot of women. Try being supportive of perspectives that may add insight, possibly informing women about unconsciously falling into destructive patterns. Judging doesn’t eliminate the victim role that bothers you so much.
                If it weren’t for the 60’s and 70’s, I can’t imagine how much more difficult things would be today. We take so much for granted that was not possible back then. Watching a few episodes of “Mad Men” demonstrates how “good” things were for women. No thanks.

          2. I think that’s really unfair. My sister is an engineer – she had to choose to go to her HR department or be blacklisted and never work in her field again (as geological engineering is a male-dominated field). She chose to go to another company that had a much more modern approach to complaints like that.
             Don’t assume you know the whole situation. These kinds of things are never black and white.

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          3. Actually, I punched him in the stomach and walked away. But the next night and the next night and all of the following nights at work I was horribly uncomfortable. I wasn’t sure if there would be retaliation or if he would try something when I was the only waiter left closing the restaurant. There was no Human Resources to file a complaint with. It was a privately owned restaurant. So, no, not a victim. Just a college kid (at the time) who desperately needed the job and left as soon as I found another one. Also, FYI, speaking about these things does not make you a victim. Far from it.

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    2. I fucking love you for this comment

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    3. Wow. Feminism is just a trend? You complain about women looking weak while simultaneously complaining about equality. #irony

       A black belt in TKD won’t do shit for you in most real predicaments. But let me get this straight… if all men and all women had a black belt in TKD, who will come out on top from that perspective? Men. In reality, more men than women learn martial arts. This is partially by choice and partially by socialization/society. I am a woman, I trained Aikido for 3 years. I don’t train it anymore because I don’t think it’s worth it when I could be doing other valuable things with my time that I enjoy more and that allow me to spend more time with women (because martial arts classes are always male dominated). I don’t think that 3 years of Aikido prepared me to defend myself from any serious attacker. It would have taken me 7+ years to reach black belt. Now I’m a dancer, and I’m studying massage therapy.

       I read an autobiography about a trans guy before he transitioned – so when he was presenting as a woman…. his dad was abusive and hateful toward him for not being feminine. So as soon as he could, he started learned TKD. His TKD instructor was famous, nationally renowned. Well, he ended up dating this guy, who told him he “fought like a man”… and when he tried to leave, his TKD instructor raped him and literally chased him down the street. So in trying to protect himself from his evil father, he got raped by the person who was supposed to be helping him. #irony

       You’ve got to be extremely arrogant if you think that having a black belt in TKD makes you impervious to sexism. Also, who goes around bragging that they have a black belt? Maybe someone looking to pick a fight. My dad always told me that a wise person doesn’t go around telling anyone they have any martial arts background because it just incites belligerent men to try to pick a fight with them.

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    4. Tell me, how was I supposed to fight off the abuse from the pastor at church as a child? I’ve since learned martial arts, carry weapons, do and have fought off attack. But picture an eight year old as the target of your diatribe.

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       1. male children suffer sexual abuse also. Sexual abuse is not limited to girls. I think girls are more likely to talk about it but many males go through abuse also.

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          1. How is that relevant to this article or even to your comment? And what about older women? Should they just learn martial arts and beat everyone up too? What about women with disabilities? It’s great that you feel confident in your abilities, but not everyone can be as physically strong for varying reasons. Should they just be “victims?” Your attitude is not so much of “women should not be assaulted” and is more “Make sure someone else is assaulted.” And I’ll just about guarantee you, you’ll learn that physical strength will ultimately fail you. It does for literally everyone someday. Arrogance usually doesn’t serve you.

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    5. And the reason you felt the need to obtain a Black Belt in Taekwondo is? You see you do it too, and you don’t even know you do it. You are prepared to physically defend yourself against attack. That is, of course, a good thing.

       This article does not make women look weak. Women are actually stronger than men in every way except general physical strength. This article isn’t about women being weak or being victims. It is about the fact that females are automatically, from birth really, a target for this type of unsavory treatment.

       Do some deep critical thinking about the bigger picture and maybe you will see that having a Black Belt in Taekwondo really does not do anything to change the reality of what all women, all over the world, are subjected to on a daily basis.

       The attitude and response you have had to this article actually makes you a part of the problem. Would you be one of those women who would tell another woman, one who had been gang raped and beaten nearly to death just because she was female, that it was her own fault because she failed to prepare herself for the possibility of that situation? Don’t you see that women should not have to prepare for that possibility because that possibility should not even exist. Maybe you could use your own strength/attitude to address the bigger problem and do something to actually help other women change the dangerous sexist culture that exists.

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       1. Listen to yourself.

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       2. Irene: “Women are actually stronger than men in every way except general physical strength.” Um. Wow? That’s a pretty horrible thing to say.

          “Don’t you see that women should not have to prepare for that possibility because that possibility should not even exist.” Yes, but since jerks aren’t going to all magically disappear, people who aren’t prepared for bad things are foolish.

          “Maybe you could use your own strength/attitude to address the bigger problem and do something to actually help other women change the dangerous sexist culture that exists.” How do you know she isn’t? Isn’t the very fact that she’s willing to stand up, not back down, and not take crap a valuable lesson, -especially- given the context of the article around “de-escalation?”

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       3. Amen, Irene Connors.

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       4. Well said, bravo!!!

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       5. You claim that women are stronger than men in every way except the physical, but can’t deal with the s*** thats going on in your own mind. You feminent are a f****** riot!!! You want equal rights but special treatment f*** you. Grow some thick skin.

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          1. No, Women are not ” stronger than men in every way except the physical” that is a ridiculous arrogant statement. BUT so is “You want equal rights but special treatment f*** you. Grow some thick skin.” Jerks exist, yes, and you should be prepared for that…. to a degree. But lets be realistic, for most men, dealing with “a jerk” means the threat of de-escalating a potential fist fight with someone of similar physical strength, not being forcefully penetrated by someone with significantly stronger physical capabilities. My time is valuable to me and I shouldn’t have to spend 5 hours a week just to even the physical score because a large percentage of men don’t have the emotional/social maturity to not abuse their physical advantage.

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    6. And this article is not about being a victim at all. It’s about awareness. Its about being aware that things like this do happen and it’s not something that should be swept under the rug.

       I also have a black belt in Taekwondo, but I doesn’t mean not a single one of these things have ever happened to me. I am still prepared and walk with my keys out because even though I can take care of myself doesn’t mean im going to be an idiot and assume that there is no one out there that can take me out. I also am not going to rage at every guy that stares at my boobs every where I go.

       I am not a victim because I have great boobs that men find themselves staring at them. I am not a victim because a man or even a women tells an inappropriate joke at an inappropriate time. I am not a victim because I may tell a little white lie when a man hits on me and it is unwanted. Sometimes that little white lie is the path of least resistance and it’ll get me out of the situation quicker.

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    7. Feminism is trending? Funniest comment Ive read in a long time.

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    8. The author forgot to mention that it is a attractive woman’s issue. Not all of us have to deal with men after turning down a date or getting unwanted attention.

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       1. That’s because the societal construct of “pretty” is a system of oppression. So, actually, it is very much an issue for all women.

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       2. Honestly, not to invalidate your experiences, whoever you are, but I am *very far* from classically pretty and I’ve had several of these things happen to me. It’s about power, not attraction.

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       3. Sorry, not true. I’m a size 24W and still get aggressively hit on, harassed, and sworn at by men for rejecting them…the list goes on and on.

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    9. I know a woman with a black belt who was raped anyway. Your confidence is admirable but it isn’t a failsafe. Your comment is victim-blaming and that’s shitty. I don’t have a black belt so I guess I deserved what happened to me huh?

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    10. You are able to say that Feminism is “trending” because you’re standing on the shoulders of giants – those that had to actually risk something so the rest of us could benefit. Not that long ago women weren’t allowed to study Taekwondo. Your accomplishment is amazing, but imagine trying to take it in 1960, along with the fallout a woman would endure for pushing for it. That’s real strength. That history should be respected, not insulted.

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        1. I don’t think she’s insulting what feminism has been, I think she’s questioning what it is now. And frankly, it’s divisive on a number of levels that aren’t helpful. A young woman I know has essentially abandoned feminism because, as she put it, “feminists eat their young.” Many examples of it (though certainly not this article) seem to come across as, “Because our cause is right, anything we do is right, and questioning us makes you the enemy.”

           A group that is unable to address criticism thoughtfully, rather than simply attacking the critics, is going to lose the people it most hopes to help. Obviously, Annabel is interested in strong women with equal rights — why else would she be so concerned about the presentation of women as weak?

           Attacking her solves precisely nothing. Comments like “I’m quite certain you lack vital human qualities” (see below) only serve to further alienate her. Why not engage with her, instead?

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           1. Oh look, a man defending misogyny and telling the rest of us how to do feminism. That’s never happened before.

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              1. Actually, I was defending a woman who was being dehumanized for daring to differ from the accepted narrative. But nice try, really. And I’m not telling you how to do feminism, and I’m suggesting you be less of an ass. These things are only tangentially connected, so please put away your mansplaining shield.

           2. Good points, about polarization and how it can repel. But, if someone opens divergent conversation by polarizing – telling someone “how” they think; that they are simply wrong; insult/label – and expect not to be challenged, it’s a bit of a double standard, no? I can begin with an attack and react strongly, but if you respond in kind, I’ve decided to turn my back because you’re the inappropriate one? Strong is good, but HOW you are strong is relevant too.

              Respect, that’s all. I agree that Anabelle isn’t the only one being reactive though.

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    11. Countering a societal behaviour with physical violence is a mere bandaid for an isolated situation. But the issue with your comment is primarily that it’s downright rude. I’m quite certain you lack vital human qualities rather than specifically woman.

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    12. The guy who tried to rape me did it when I was unconscious. And before anyone tries to blame me, I was asleep in my own bedroom. Even if I had known Taekwondo that would have meant diddly squat. So maybe try to be less smug because not everyone has the same advantages as you. There are teenage girls harassed by grown men twice their size. What would busting out a karate chop accomplish, except make him angry? Also, nowhere in the article does it say girls have to call themselves a victim. It’s about raising awareness to the reality that a lot of women have to live with. Learning self-defense is one step, but that only goes so far.

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    13. That’s funny, I didn’t realize my black belt (and instructorship) in taekwondo meant I didn’t have to be a feminist or that I was immune to harassment. Guess I should tell that to my black-belt friend, who has been assaulted.

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    14. Before you attack other women, you might want to look up “internalized misogyny” and “female exceptionalism.” Start here. http://www.shakesville.com/2011/02/feminism-101-helpful-hints-for-dudes_15.html

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    15. Why do you have to negate what she just said, like she said would happen.
        This needs to be brought up over and over and over until it is stopped.
        I am a big man and I do my best to make women feel comfortable when we end up alone in an elevator or stairwell. I have offered to wait for the next elevator so they aren’t alone with me. I slow down in parking garages if they are ahead of me. These things are a reality and no amount of martial arts training is going to change the world.
        Men need to educate and shame men into understanding their role in how women have been terrorized around the world. I do not allow my male friends to talk about women in a derogatory way, nor do I let strangers do it either. I call them on it whenever I can. It is the only thing that will stop this.
        This breaks my heart for all my women friends, my daughter-in-law and my 2 beautiful granddaughters that will have to experience this. Let’s educate boys now so they know not to do this. It is not girl’s and women’s problems, it is a men’s and boy’s problem.

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        1. Well said, sir.

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           1. ditto

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    16. Being strong and suffering from sexist behaviour are NOT mutually exclusive, so the comment I reply to here founders on that false dichotomy. A strong woman can soldier on despite such behaviour, but that does not make the behaviour in question any more acceptable.

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    17. Even after a Women’s Studies degree program and countless conversations with friends about pervasive sexism, I didn’t know. It took a specific anti-harassment campaign (and the followup conversations I had) to clue me in, because my friends assumed it was so normal as to be universal knowledge, but I rarely witnessed the harassment in person specifically because I was there, since men who might ‘own’ the woman in question (in the mind of the harasser) dissuade overt harassment.

        I say this not to earn points or excuse ignorance, just to validate the premise. There are also plenty of willfully-ignorant non-harassers as well as self-rationalizing harassers, and you can’t necessarily know whether men in your life are in any particular group, but if you think they’re trustworthy, it may be worth talking with them about everyday sexism.

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    18. Wow, what nonsense. I’ve luckily never had any major issue at work, but have you ever taken a moment to consider:
        Someone who is desperate for the job and the offender is the woman’s direct manager or even the business owner.
        Someone who needs a letter of recommendation for their next job
        Someone who is needs the job for their visa
        Seriously- that last one- if I went around beating up assholes like you seem to be advocating, I would lose my job, my visa would be cancelled, and I would be deported. Have you ever stopped to consider that? Thousands of people rely on their job, internship, or studies to keep their visa.

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        1. I don’t know how it is in your country, but in Canada, if you initiate unwanted sexual contact, violence is a legally acceptable response. All you have to do is demonstrate that you felt threatened.

           I’m curious — a lot of your posts seem to take the stance that standing up for yourself will often escalate into violence. Do you think it’s that common?

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           1. Okay, that was awkwardly worded. Edit: “If someone initiates unwanted contact, violence is a legally acceptable response.”

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98. Women can be just as bad as anyone else at sexual harassment. One of the first times I was harassed was by a woman, who thought that groping me at work was totally appropriate. Needless to say, I corrected her assumption that touching me in any way was acceptable. Perhaps not gracefully, but “don’t touch me…ever…” kind of gets the point across. But she still continued to ask me out and try to flirt with me until the day I left. Now, I’ve been harassed by men more times than I can count – from being told my braids make nice handle-bars to being grabbed on the sidewalk walking home at night (Thank God that worked out better than expected), ,and some of these men are just really distasteful and disrespectful, but from some I’ve gotten to know, they have no idea how to interact appropriately with women. They think what they say and do is normal and sometimes even desired. One man I know came from an all male workplace, where women were discussed as objects, so when we started working together, he interacted the way he knew how. He needed to learn how to respect and ineract with women, and who better than a woman to break those negative patterns? He’s now one of the most respectful men I know.
    Sexism is real and happens way too often, but it’s not just men perpetrating it. I understand that pattern of thinking, because I’ve been there. For years I avoided men like the plague, because when I saw a man, I didnt see a cute guy, I saw a threat. But there truly are good men out there who are penalized by the stigma that all men are sexist jerks. Is it a woman’s fault that she’s been through experiences that shape her thinking in that way? No. Is it this man’s fault that so many before him degraded or hurt you? No. But it is a sad reality that we are slowly trying to change. As women we have to be cautious in this world, but we also need to be careful about blaming an entire gender – that resolves nothing. As men, you need to be aware that you are not the first man she’s met…And some of her reactions to you might be stemming from past experiences. Be understanding, be open. Be aware of the presence that you have as a man…probably larger and stronger…and do whatever you need to do to put her at ease, because you have no idea what she has been through before meeting you. And women…don’t be afraid to speak up, even gently to say that something makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable, because that varies with each of us, and he can’t read our minds. Perhaps he means welll, but he needs to know that your personal bubble isn’t the size of a grape…it’s more like a good year blimp. Maybe casual touching (no, I don’t mean groping) isn’t okay with you, but it was in his past experiences with other women. Give him a fair chance by giving him some clues. Sometimes it’s hard to find your voice, but if you don’t try, you might miss out. If I had continued to believe that all men were a threat, and hadn’t spoken up, I would have missed out on the greatest person in my life: my husband.

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    1. I recommend this to you ccraig. Written by a white man, sent to you by a woman who is deeply tired of men who say “it happens to men too” and “women do it too”. Because you’re entirely missing the point. Absolutely and entirely. Please read. But don’t write back to me because … I’m so deeply tired of you and I know you can take care of yourself.

       “Unless we, especially those of us like myself who are white men, are willing to acknowledge the fact of our colonialist civilization, are willing to confront the fact of our legacy and continuation of systemic racism, are willing to acknowledge the role men play, collectively and individually, in the creation of a culture of misogyny, then how can we seek to be allies to those communities and movements that are fighting to end the long and terrible history of institutionalized brutality that directly benefited us and whose continuing, daily and pervasive manifestations still do?

       This is why talking about, seeking to understand and seeking to acknowledge our collective role in systemic oppression is an absolute necessity. Without doing so, it is very difficult to see how our society and civilization can ever begin to move past it..”

       http://theleftchapter.blogspot.ca/2015/02/part-of-problem-talking-about-systemic.html

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    2. Saying that women ‘can” be as bad is quite different from saying that there is a culture of systemic harassment of men by women in the same way that there is one of women by men. Understanding the difference is important. So sure, women can harass, but pointing that out does not actually challenge the point the article is making.

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       1. It does change a lot of the reasoning. The articles reads:

          “Maybe I’m realizing that men can’t be expected to understand how pervasive everyday sexism is if we don’t start telling them and pointing to it when it happens. Maybe I’m starting to realize that men have no idea that even walking into a store women have to be on guard. We have to be aware, subconsciously, of our surroundings and any perceived threats.”

          “Guys, this is what it means to be a woman.”

          It addresses men directly. It describes problems women have. One could conclude that the article blames men for these problems.

          If women are doing this too, one of two things must be true.

          A) People are unaware that women do this and men are being wrongly blamed for something both sexes perpetrate.

          OR

          B) These problems only qualify as problems when perpetrated by men, which would be sexist.

          These apply directly to the problems women face as described by the article (some people will not think everything discussed is necessarily an issue either). We are not even talking about analogous issues men may face (faux pas, I know).

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99. As a man I think this article is largely true but it misses something.

    It assumes unfair, gender based challenges are unique to women.

    As a man I am seen as a threat. A woman walks near a child and even speaks to a child and people are fine with it. A man does the exact same thing and is treated like a threat – other parents call their children over. Watch TV: a woman slaps a man and she is a hero… a man does the exact same thing to a woman and he is a villain. If there is domestic violence where both parties act inappropriately the man is assumed to be the one in the wrong. If two consenting adults have a few drinks and then engage in intimate behavior the woman can say she was intoxicated and taken advantage of – the man cannot. Heck, from personal experience I know when I used to hold my infant children I would repeatedly be told I was doing it wrong by different women – they would just approach me and start telling me how to hold MY child (yes, I was supporting their necks, yes they were comfortable… no, I was not tossing them up in the air and catching them!)

    Many more examples: men are seen as the heroes, that is true, but also as the villains. Men are threats. Men are abusers. Men are assumed to be wrong, and told they are valued less (women and children first!)

    I am NOT saying that this means men have it as bad as women… but I think we *do* hear a lot about the stereotypes and challenges of women (and I appreciate hearing it – it does open my eyes to things I would not otherwise see). We do not hear it as much about men because men have the advantage so their unique challenges are to just be accepted.

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    1. I agree with you on this one. Men also have to be constantly aware of threats from other men (unfortunately playing into your threat generalization). Men of smaller stature are prayed upon by other men and bullied yet can’t speak up. My son takes public transportation home from school at the age of 12. I have to worry about him protecting himself etc., Its not only women and girls who experience fear at the hands of others.

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    2. You make some important points. Pervasive stereotypes are so entrenched. They affect us all negatively in one way or another, even when we think things have changed somewhat…those roots run deep.

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    3. I don’t know, I find that pretty much as soon as I open up any post about women, someone comes along right away to make sure I’ve heard about the plight of men.

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    4. This was a well written comment that expressed the challenges of men without attacking women or feminism. I wanted to point that out because a comment like this is rare to see.

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    5. This is right on the mark and I was going to say exactly that, however you did a far better job than I could have:

       “. A woman walks near a child and even speaks to a child and people are fine with it. A man does the exact same thing and is treated like a threat – other parents call their children over. Watch TV: a woman slaps a man and she is a hero… a man does the exact same thing to a woman and he is a villain. If there is domestic violence where both parties act inappropriately the man is assumed to be the one in the wrong. If two consenting adults have a few drinks and then engage in intimate behavior the woman can say she was intoxicated and taken advantage of – the man cannot.” —–

       Men are sexualized very often. They are groped, harassed sexually. If a woman rages and throws things, she’s pissed off, if a man rages and throws things, suddenly he is told to go to anger management. Although I can identify with some of the things mentioned in this article, I don’t feel my trials and tribulations as a woman are any worse than those of young men I knew growing up.

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    6. Hey, men who are all butthurt because you think women are unfairly judging you? Read this to find out why. http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

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    7. The article didn’t miss anything. The author wrote about challenges women face. The article never says or assumes that men do not face any gender-based stereotypes- that was something you very much chose to read into it. The author is a woman, so don’t you think it’s pretty unreasonable to expect her to magically be able to write a man’s perspective?

       Your comment is well-written and you seem to have personal experience with this issue, both as a father and simply as a male member to society. Perhaps you should consider addressing the lack of awareness about the gender-based challenges men face by writing your own blog post? They are important issues, but you cannot expect a woman to write about your challenges and personal experience as a male- she could try, but I think we can all agree that such a post would be more meaningful from someone like you who has personal experience on the subject.

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       1. I had the same initial reaction too and made a post, but then realized the error in such a response. It wasn’t the core issue I had with the article at all. As a blog for female issues, I don’t find fault with omitting similar issues men face.

          Rather I find it disturbing that the author blames men for the issues women face. Looking through the comments, it is obvious that women are just as capable as men are in causing the issues as the article lays out. Therefore, the author should be addressing everyone regarding the issues women face rather than placing the onus solely on men.

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          1. “Looking through the comments, it is obvious that women are just as capable as men are in causing the issues as the article lays out.”
             I’m not sure what comment makes you think that. I think you might be lying to yourself a bit. I have never had a woman question why I was cold to a guy who was making me uncomfortable, or accuse me of being unfriendly when the attention I was getting was unwelcome, I have never had a woman tell me that a guy’s inappropriate behavior to me was just a “misunderstanding,” I’ve never had women tell me “nothing really bad happened” when a guy grabbed me. I’ve never had a women accuse me of lying about having been followed.
             I do not think the writer did anything wrong in addressing men in her post. Yes, there are a few women who are insensitive about these things, but most women have experienced at least some of these fears, abuse, inappropriate behavior or insults, therefore they are more empathetic. The vast majority of insensitivity on this topic comes from males. That doesn’t make men bad, they just don’t usually have the same level of understanding because very few of them have experienced these things. Some of my close friends have said things like, “Why aren’t you more friendly?” That doesn’t make them bad people, I love them, they are my friends- but they are a bit insensitive on this topic.

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100. Welp, unsurprisingly, this comment section started out reasonable and has devolved.

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     1. Oh so surprising.

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101. I guess it is a big secret that men also de-escalate. They do it at work to keep from being fired. They do it because men who don’t are jerks.(Not perceived as jerks. They actually ARE jerks (male bitches). If you find you have to de-escalate to avoid danger, you are seeking the wrong kind of men. You should change yourself to seek and attract different men.

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     1. If you read the article you would know she isnt “seeking” anyone she is talking about everyday life..going to work to a store etc.. Never once does it say anything about dating these guys or seeking anyone out. Its about putting up w them in everyday life.

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102. This happened to me at work (a government job) on a daily basis for a very long time and made me so stressed i became physically ill. Im on medical leave beacuse of it and they do not believe me, rather they sent me to a psychaitrist because i must be ‘crazy’…… 4 months later i relive it every day sitting here. Its terrible because its apparently acceptable behaviour….if you speak out or question it, you get revictimized. All I am asking for is a safe healthy workplace to return to, which they are not providing….rather now recommending I apply for long term disability….. because apparently out of all of this, i am disabled? Ok.

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103. While walking to work and seeing the 98985498493th man check out my girlfriend, I turned to her and asked, “How do you deal with all these guys look at you, check you out, eye you up and down, non-stop, over and over and over every day of your life probably from when you were a young lady, until today?”
     She looked at me and said “I just get over it.”
     The end.
     Stop being so butt hurt.

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     1. That would be the de-escalating she was referring to. Just getting over it doesnt make it right that it happens. hopefully a little education can curtail some of it.

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     2. It wouldn’t be such a big deal if guys just checked you out. Actually I wouldn’t really be offended by that. What I had to deal with walking to the bus stop: guys yelling nasty things at me, cussing me out if I didn’t give him my number, I’ve had guys push me, one guy actually grab onto my jacket and not let me go. And I was not wearing skimpy clothes! I was dressed for the office, pants and a blazer. The best thing is just to ignore it, I learned not to make eye contact, no saying “hello”, no smiling at guys on the street. It’s sad you can’t be friendly because some guys will take it as an invitation to harassment.

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     3. Are you kidding me? Your girlfriend says that to you and that is your reaction?

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104. Great Observations!

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105. well, how to live then? I’ve learned a lesson well – I am a man. Horrible, aggressive beast who abuses women just by looking at them. OK, I’m ashamed. I’m alone. I never speak to woman, unless spoken to. I avoid their company altogether, I don’t need to be arrested for looking in wrong direction, breathing too deep or too shallow, or, unimaginable, touching, purely by accident, but we know those men with only one thing in their monkey brains, yuck.

     So, dear women, that is how I live thanks to you. Since the childhood I’ve been told by women, how disgusting I am, so, now I am man of your dreams – alone and always afraid. Harmless as wet cotton.

     Thank you.

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     1. Look up “strawman fallacy”.

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        1. I think worthless’ problems are more about emotional than logical fallacies. 🙁

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     2. I think you’ve really internalized things based on the worst possible interpretation of all this. Nobody who should be listened to wants you to suffer because you’re a man. You still have to live your life.

        Just don’t be all of those awful things you’ve listed! Don’t act entitled to women’s time or attention just because you want it, don’t leer at them, don’t cat-call, etc. It’s basic human decency, not some demand that you don’t live your life for fear of offending.

        I’m sorry you feel the way you do, because I know what it’s like to have poor self-esteem, among other related problems. You sound like you’re really suffering about this, but you don’t have to. There’s no need to use some awful stereotype about men to judge yourself, or to use feminist ideas as a scapegoat for why you don’t feel good about yourself. I’ve been there, it’s easy to blame something else for your problems.

        Try not to beat yourself up because sexism exists. None of us is perfectly able to avoid playing into sexism, and none of us made things the way they are, BUT we can all try to do better, and we can all live with respect for others.

        I’m a man too. It can be difficult to know where the line is when it comes to interacting with women, but the bottom line is just decency. With maybe an extra dose of trying not to creep women out. Again, we can’t control it 100%, but we can get close, especially when it comes to the bigger problem behaviors women encounter in public.

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106. How in the HELL did you get victim from this? Acknowledging and dealing with issues such as racism and sexism is not playing the victim. Grow up. Feminism is not a trend, it’s not a victim mentality. My god – who the hell are you people? Don’t talk about it – that makes you a victim? WHAT? Where is the logic in this argument – OH WAIT – there is NO logic in your weak argument. I’m so sick of seeing this shaming when someone speaks up, addresses the issue and tries to change the status quo.

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     1. This was on part of what I wrote.. darn

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107. Gretchen: people bending over backwards to discredit your own lived experience only proves your point. You are right. Keep speaking your truth.

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108. This was hard to read. Not because it isn’t true, but because it is. I will say a lot of this has changed for me now in my 40s because I’m not the cute little thing I used to be, but I don’t miss that sinking feeling of being smarmed. Yes, that is my own word. When a guy oozes leeringly at you and you aren’t sure if he is just clueless and harmlessly trying to be charming or actually dangerous.

     These kinds of things happen to both genders because we’re lost as a world, as a culture. We’ve forgotten how to respect each other and ourselves, we’ve forgotten how to have some self-control, that just because you think or feel something doesn’t give you permission to act or necessitate that you act or even speak your mind.

     If we want this kind of sickening stuff to stop for everyone, we have to stand up to it. Call it out, draw attention and force people to be better.

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     1. Actually, men do not go through life being afraid of being raped and murdered by women. So it’s not a case of “both genders.” Men just trot out the “but women do it too!” crap whenever women point out male violence, as a derailing tactic.

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        1. I meant being objectified and mistreated.

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     2. “When a guy oozes leeringly at you and you aren’t sure if he is just clueless and harmlessly trying to be charming or actually dangerous.”
        I had an experience with this just a few days ago. I was out with some friends, and a couple of guys we didn’t know ended up joining our group. At first it was fine, but the more drunk they got, the more uncomfortable I felt.
        They didn’t do anything overtly wrong, other than giving compliments that bordered on inappropriate and invading my personal space quite a lot (trying to whisper in my ear and a couple of times trying to put his arm around me). I have been around drunk people that acted worse, but all of my instincts were screaming ‘danger’ so I felt like spent the evening manuvering away from them, trying to put my male friends between me and them. I wanted to leave, but didn’t dare to walk home alone.
        When my friends and I finally left and walked home together, they (both male) mentioned how annoying those guys had been.
        It was eye-opening to think that what had been merely an annoyance to them had been fear for me. And I don’t think I’m paranoid or unreasonable even though it’s unlikely anything bad would have happened, but I still think listening to my instincts- to stop drinking, stick close to my firends, and not walk home alone- was the right thing to do.

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        1. I’ve been there so many times. The worry is that we’re wrong, and will blame someone who was harmless. Why? Couldn’t we just say, I’m feeling like you’re pushing a bit hard against my personal boundaries. I need some room. A good guy won’t get angry. A bad guy will.

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109. Gretchen, well said, thank you! Women have lived with this far too long. Ms Maunder, congratulations on your Black Belt, well done, I am sure it will hold you in good stead during an attack and boosts your confidence. Women do need to take care of ourselves.

     An navel, The first tenet of Taekwondo is Yi-Ui…courtesy, somewhat lacking?

     In the Taekwondo oath the fourth article is a pledge to stand up for freedom and justice. The fifth is to cooperate in the creation of a more peaceful world!

     Gretchen was not making women look weak, nor was she calling herself a victim, because Feminism is Trending. She is stading up for freedom and justice and working towards a more peaceful world! She is simply stating facts, women do put up with a lot of things, and have to be continually aware of security. I applaud women who are willing to put these issues into print, to talk about sexist behaviour and to unify us to make the world a better place!

     I grew up in an era where women had been working in munition plants, nursing men and women whose bodies were shattered by bombs, etc., etc., to be sent back to their changed lives and expected to accept old traditional values of what women were supposed to be! We have worked hard to get where we are now for this new generation of stronger, fitter women! Hurrah, I am pleased, it just keeps improving. My daughters are strong, intelligent, loving women! We have come a long way, keep climbing!

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110. Of course there are men on here feeling sorry for themselves. As always. “Yes it’s bad for women, but just think about how the men feel in this situation! We are judged and labeled!” Wah.

     And the woman who feels that poor little delicate men “just don’t know how to act”… “be fair, give them a chance”. We don’t need more excuses for this behavior.

     No, it is 2015 and this has been happening to women for hundreds, if not thousands of years! It’s not time to be “understanding” and “consider what their previous experiences were”. It is quite clear that for a majority (notice I didn’t say “all”) of society, men’s previous experience has been treating women this way for generations upon generations. It is time for boys to be raised and taught that you don’t treat women this way. That you treat them with respect and honor and show some restraint and some decency as a human being. That women are not to be objectified and sexualized when they are 13! That women have a right to say “no” to you and that doesn’t mean you can get angry about it, and that women deserve to go on about their day without being bothered by some man who thinks he automatically deserve her time of day.

     I’m not saying there aren’t cases where men aren’t treated poorly or where they are not harassed, but on the large scale this is a much bigger problem for women and it is treated as the “norm” and that’s not okay. It’s time for all humans to treat each other with respect and decency.

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111. Spelling correction “I’m not saying there aren’t cases where when ARE* treated poorly or where they ARE* harassed”. Got a bit mixed up when typing.

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     1. Makes another mistake trying to correct spelling…

        “I’m not saying there aren’t cases where MEN* are treated poorly”, etc etc.

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112. Great article. AND I would add this happens on even more subtle levels EVERY DAY within our most intimate circles and relationships – both with men and with women. It takes vigilence and strength and power to not hide in fear of speaking up even more in those circles to those that say they Love us…because what will they do if we speak up and point out the way they are wounding the Feminine in our relationship?

     http://hollichristinemccormick.com/compensation-1-we-all-walk-with-a-feminine-wound/

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113. Reblogged this on whisper down the write alley and commented:
     how do YOU de-escalate? what can YOU do to change it or make the situation better?

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114. I quite honestly think a lot of you are missing the point of her article. I’ll put it simply in two words. “Just. Listen.” She just asks you guys to listen when a woman does get mistreated because listening is the least we can all do.

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115. Reblogged this on anonymousdiariesofmine and commented:
     A very well written post.. All those minute things in life that we choose to ignore make a lot of difference!

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116. Im sorry – though Im really not this article pissed me off – if your statements at the start and middle of your rant are true then what is there to listen to cause according to you we as woman do and say nothing. I for one NEVER learned to say nothing – even to a boss (though I have never had a boss touch my ass)

     I have never said a woman deserved a rape because of what she wore, because I also know that woman can be raped or abused wearing sweatpants and sweatshirts but I have also said that woman should Respect themselves more than to show the world everything they have, Be a Lady, hold yourself in respect and maybe just maybe people will respect you

     I did listen to you and I call bull

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     1. No, what’s bullshit is saying you have never said a woman deserved rape because of what she wore and then saying we should respect ourselves and not show too much skin because men will…. what? Respect us enough not to rape us? Total. Bullshit.

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        1. I never said men – read what I said – “Be a Lady, hold yourself in respect and maybe just maybe people will respect you”

           You implied that with your own mind set not mine – That is the problem right there. This whole article is a poor us woman we are so looked down upon we have to let this happen to us and not say anything – it the I take offense to everything culture we live in.

           You saw my words and took offense because you though I was saying respect yourself so men wont rape you – which in no way did I actually say.

           So maybe she did get one thing right as people (not just woman) we need to listen to each other and look at it from outside our world views.

           Cause all I saw from my world view is you taking my words and spinning them for your own “Im offended by everything agenda”

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           1. Being a “lady” and “holding oneself in respect” does not protect women against rape. A man who is raping a woman does not care if she is being a “lady” and does not respect her. He is doing it because he can – not because she isn’t being a “lady.”

              Your agenda is to blame women for being raped.

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              1. I never said it did not once did I say that I actually even said that – “because I also know that woman can be raped or abused wearing sweatpants and sweatshirts.” I even said Maybe just maybe people respect you.

                 Why is it that he thinks he can… because as she said woman are silent so WHY ARE WE SILENT, she says its cause we have been taught that way – as I said ” I for one NEVER learned to say nothing – even to a boss (though I have never had a boss touch my ass) ”

                 You are just repeating what bibliomama2 said, which I should have known that replying to a blog with the tone this had that my opinions would be attacked and not seen as another side.

                 I started my second paragraph with the statement that I dont blame the woman so how can my agenda be to blame the woman…..

                 What I am saying is that Men (who do this stuff – cause not all men do – though this blog and many comments say all men do ) may , which I again say MAY, realize they are wrong if we stand up for ourselves and respect ourselves. Its the same with bulling- if we just sit back and take it, it will keep happening. If we stand up and say something it may keep happening but then at least someone else knows its happen and something can be done it.

                 The man who rapes, or assaults a woman physically and/or verbally/ mentally is to blame I have never said he wasnt. As a matter of fact ANYONE who does anything against ANYONE is to blame. That is my point if we as HUMAN BEINGS respected ourselves and others wouldnt have these problems and if we live that way we can be examples to others and maybe we can finally live in a world where we dont have these issues

     2. Amanda, thank you SO much both for this comment and all the ones after it. I’ve said the same thing, and I was beginning to wonder if there were any women out there who agreed. If you don’t lift a finger to stop something, what right do you have to expect it to stop?

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        1. John, what do you suggest when women do speak out and they’re simply ignored and invalidated? Unless there has been a severe physical transgression, often it’s merely her word against his.

           Unfortunately sexual intimidation doesn’t carry the same legal recourse as sexual abuse.

           Her concerns and fears are often dismissed as being “over sensitive”, or a “misunderstanding”. If she shares that her boss / co-worker / fellow-student / acquaintance is “handsy” she gets told to try and stay out of his way, or to “just ignore it”.

           There have been cases of young sportsmen who have sexually assaulted women and instead of focusing on why they would abuse a women, the conversation has instead been centred around why she would try to ruin their promising careers. This is one such instance: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/23/1907651/michigan-high-school-rape-culture/

           So what more do women need to do? If women are routinely ignored, if their concerns are routinely downplayed, if they are routinely discouraged from speaking out, what are they supposed to do?

           And why is it the sole responsibility of women to change the narrative and culture? Why do we never discuss the responsibility of men in this?

           What right do men have to think they can start?

           Reply

117. Hey – this is a great article. Thanks for writing it and posting it. I never read the comments. I’ve been told they will piss me off. But you mentioned them right off the bat so – I made an exception this time. They are not what I expected and I’m so sorry you have to deal with this bullshit. Please bask in the knowledge that you’re right. That ignorance is just that – ignorance. Ignorance leads to shaming and oppression. It also inspires the following:

     To the haters – even though as Brene Brown says – I’m not a JackAss Whisper – and I know my shouts will probably be ignored or stupid comments posted in reply but I have to say this:

     Feminism is not a trend. It’s not a four letter word.
     I’m older than most of you on this board. I don’t mean to “Patronize” It’s a fact.
     Most of you have NO idea what the world was like before you were born and the deep seated sexism that did and does still exists today. You have no clue why you have the rights you do have and the opportunities and choices you do have because of people like me.
     A FEMINIST.

     You have no clue what we fought for, the trenches we crawled through as warriors not this “victim” you claim Feminist are being. You can say that all you want, but you’re wrong.
     My god – who the hell are you people?
     Talking about and dealing with a problem? That makes you a victim? WHAT? Where is the logic in this argument – OH WAIT – there is NO logic in your weak argument. You are doing EXACTLY what she’s talking about and I guess you’re too blind to see that fact.
     TALKING and meeting an issue (ANY issue) head on makes you strong.

     Someone grabs your ass in a bar. Sure go all martial arts on their ass but you know what? Why should we have to deal with that shit in the first place? And because I don’t want to deal with it – THAT makes me a victim? Because I speak up and try to change the idea that that behavior is NOT acceptable by talking about it. THAT makes me a victim? I don’t think so!
     How in the HELL did you get victim from this article?

     Next:
     If you are my age and you wrote one of those shaming comments well -shame on you back.
     Acknowledging and dealing with issues such as racism and sexism is not playing the victim. Grow up- no matter how old you are.

     Feminism is not a trend and it’s not a victim mentality.

     Next:
     Recognizing these issues – or being subjected to them – doesn’t mean you want special treatment, hate men or society or people who post shaming comments on other people’s blogs. (well – that last one – I’m working on)

     The action of acknowledging that it happens and the subsequent discussion of these issues make you HUMAN.

     “Feminist” are insisting that we be treated as equals. Not better, not worse. Equals.

     You shamers are just one more attempt to silence people with non-facts, unsupported ideas and propaganda – fallacy arguments that have no foundation in reality or fact. Your idea of “Feminist as victim” has no substance. NONE.

     You are ignorant weapons and I’m sick of ignoring your weak ass arguments.
     I’m so sick of seeing this shaming when someone speaks up, addresses the issue and tries to change the status quo.
     NO ONE Is a victim because they talk about shit that needs to change.
     I shout again:
     We don’t speak up because we are a victims, but because the status quo needs to change and to change it you have to talk about it. Although right now, trust me – I would love to go all martial arts on some of YOUR asses.

     These comments challenge me not to become a hater.
     I didn’t quite succeed today but you know what –
     I won’t let you silence this author.
     I won’t be silenced by you and let you try to discredit these ideas without a fight.
     I won’t keep my mouth shut about the ignorance you are spouting.
     I won’t “Play the victim” by remaining silent or avoiding the conversation.
     I have the right to have this conversation and so do you because –
     I’m a feminist and I fought for and won that right.

     YOU’RE WELCOME.

     Sincerely,
     A Feminist Warrior.

     Reply

     1. *applauds*

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118. Great article. My only criticism is that not all women can be overtaken by a man-and we need to encourage more and more women to be part of that percentage. Get training in self defense, and carry more legitimate weapons than keys between your fingers. Use whatever you have to, but a gun/knife/pepper spray/tactical pen>keys or nothing. Training is imperative. Awareness is imperative. Standing up for yourself is imperative.

     It’s unfortunate that we have to face these battles all the time, and have to figure out how to lead future generations through the battle as well. Everyone can do their parts, though!

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119. Aren’t there more important things to worry about? Is this really that big of a deal? Aren’t you being overly sensitive? Are you sure you’re being rational about this?

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120. Wow, Gretchen. Beautifully written and expressed. I don’t see that many people could argue with much of anything you’ve said.
     Partly so I don’t cry myself to sleep thinking of my girlfriend and sisters struggling with this and partly because sadly, you just don’t see it, I would love to read the article that serves as a counterweight to this one. I’m sure there are many more things women do that I don’t know. (because even having been surrounded by women my whole life, I’m still pretty much entry level at understanding you ladies)
     Please tell me the things women do that revel in and celebrate all that it is to be female. Please share with the same passion, the stuff that makes you laugh… the little secret moments that most of us miss that make you happy to be alive in a way that is uniquely, joyously feminine. Maybe share the moment of flirtation you do enjoy that leaves a butterfly or two the next day and helps you forget all the awkward, stilted human interactions from those less skilled in the art of not being creepy.
     I ask this not because my male brain can’t handle the things you’re saying here. I ask because I believe them…

     Keep writing. I found your page by accident but happy I did.

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121. I have dealt with this issue very acutely these past six months as a professional doctor trying to get networked into the big leagues. I am actually hoping to publish a memoir on my journey soon. What I have learned is that instead of breaking ground and being seen as a competent colleague and peer I have been raped and molested and more. This is a thing people – don’t even try to say its not. And the worst is that I always have to face these guys professionally the next day, the next meeting, the next something, and they stare me down in full knowing. It’s not fair. In trying to call it out or make people aware I have been poorly received and lost friends-though admittedly anyone who would discredit me as a friend based on me calling out sexual harassment needed to go anyway, but this issue is sitting so vile with me right now. I am glad someone is out there calling it out. Its a sad, sad thing that we encounter every day.

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122. Reading the comments I would like to point out something, which should be obvious to everyone, that it is NOT ALL MEN doing this kind of stuff. In my experience it is a very small percent of men, usually the “loser” types with an inferiority complex, who make it up by being overly aggressive and hostile. I am blessed with wonderful men in my life who would be the first to condemn this sort of behavior. So the people saying this is an attack on all men, it’s not an attack on all men. If you aren’t doing this kind of behavior why shouldn’t you condemn it also? Don’t you have a mother, daughter or sister?

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     1. My two cents as a guy:

        There are “enough men do it” who act out in these ways that it makes the “not all men” group irrelevant.

        Those “not all men” types need to be the agents of change challenging those “enough men do it” types.

        That’s why I’ve been working as a volunteer at the local sexual assault agency for 23 years.

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        1. I’m gonna hop in on this one. I refuse to believe that men are all vile creatures waiting to attack a woman. If you think the “not all men” group are irrelevant, then you are part of the very problem you are trying to eradicate. The NAMs of the world aren’t cruising through life seeing how many women they can degrade. They are already agents of change unjustly labeled because yourself and other women believe we are irrelevant. We are already doing what’s right. Thus, a basic lesson in stereotyping needs to be learned here.

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           1. I’m not talking about doing what’s right as much as actively countering those who are doing what’s wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood me as to my gender: I’m a male who is an activist about challenging those who are not doing right by others.

              Reply

           2. Or to put it another way, I in no way insinuated that all men are vile creatures. And, yes, the NAM are irrelevant if they are not seeking to counter the rape culture we live in.

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              1. Their actions already counter it. Just being the complete opposite of what the author described is counteracting that culture. People need to see and understand that as much as they need to understand their is an issue to be dealt with. That gives a clearer picture of the issue.

              2. No, dude. Thinking you’re a good guy does nothing to counteract the bad guys. And if you think patting yourself on the back for being a good guy because you didn’t rape a woman today is enough, you’re part of the problem.

              3. First.. I know I’m a good guy. You’ve been corrected there.

                 Second… it’s no pat on the back to ask not to be included with the group of men the author speaks of. You’ve been corrected again.

                 You not realizing that request constitutes your contribution to said problem. So what are you gonna do about it?

           3. And as to simply doing what’s right: how does that change the attitudes we see increasingly in pornography, in the rapes by Frat brothers, in the sex trafficking of women and children?

              Just because you don’t do it doesn’t mean that you’ve had any impact on the larger questions.

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           4. Could you get further off topic? “Not all men” is an inappropriate response to this article because the article is not saying “men do bad things” it’s saying “women put up with a lot of shit- so listent to the women in your life and don’t be dismissive of her concerns”
              It is amazing how many men jumped to prove the author’s point by dismissing what women face with “I’m not like that, you’re stereotyping me!”

              Reply

              1. I’ve read most of the recent comments and I see you’ve been battling anyone who doesn’t give the “appropriate response.” Doesn’t that mean you’re just as “dismissive?” Seems like it. And here I thought this piece was supposed to spark discussion. Way to participate.

                 I shall explain myself no further. Read the civil discourse between myself and Gretchen. You’ll see all I have to say.

                 Do what you’re asking me to do. Listen.

        2. Tedd — I am sure every woman’s experience is different, whether it is 1 in every 10 men, 1 in 20 or whatever, my point was that some men on these comments are taking it like we are accusing them personally. If you’re not raping/harassing/abusing women, why shouldn’t you be against other men doing it? That’s what I don’t understand.

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           1. I mean don’t these men have women in their lives that they care about and don’t want these kinds of things happening to them?

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           2. I quite agree. I know men who are good husbands and faithful. I’m one of those. And, very big yes—we must not be silent in the face of the rape culture/objectifying women.

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        3. It’s not an issue on an individual level, it is a systemic issue. So forget about “us vs. them.” However, thank you for being an ally. It becomes so tiring as a woman to always have to try and explain these issues and the support, voices, and actions of men are needed.

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     2. We. All. Know. That.

        Reply

123. I really try to read these articles with an open mind. However, it irritates me that men are painted as such jerks. I’m not saying any of what Gretchen wrote is not true. I know SOME guys can be relentless when talking to a lady. The threat of rape, walking alone in a parking lot, being cat-called is prevalent. I won’t excuse the behavior. Just know that I, for one, am not thinking about you one bit when we pass each other in the parking lot.

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     1. Here’s your cookie.

        Reply

        1. I appreciate you being so thoughtful giving me the cookie. You’re such a kind person. Thank you 🙂

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     2. Jarrod I assure you that I was not insinuating that “all men are jerks.” This is more of a message to all those men out there who are good guys (which I actually believe is the majority of men). The good guys don’t see how often this happens. Mainly because they aren’t doing these things themselves and/or hanging out with guys who do it. And also because if you’re with a woman (a friend or wife/girlfriend) you won’t see it happen either. The guys that engage in this type of behavior do it when women are alone and occasionally when woman are with other women. Once in a while, yeah, it’s done openly in front of a larger crowd.

        Reply

        1. I appreciate your response, Gretchen. Your article is actually eloquent. The comments section not so much. I apologize for my contribution to that chaos.

           As I’ve stated, I don’t condone the behavior of the men you’re talking about. It just bothers me because I’m easily grouped.

           I may not know how prevalent it is. For that, I say thank you for enlightening me on the topic. I just want people (please read some of these comments) to understand there’s more good than bad as you’ve stated. Sadly, as I’ve been told, treating women right is irrelevant. That’s kind of confusing because it seems that’s what is being asked of men. Correct?

           Reply

           1. I think what’s being asked is that you listen and not be dismissive of women’s concerns. Getting defensive, and saying you don’t act like those jerks, made you appear dismissive of what the women commenting have experienced and thus the chaos.
              The author writes about personal experiences, and never once implies that all men are like that- no sane person would read it and infer that she thinks all men are like that.
              Honestly though, some guys who are so defensive, the way you are being, can be very difficult to be around, because you are offended by women’s basic instincts to stay safe.
              For example, if a man invites a woman to his house for a first date, and she won’t go because that’s an unsafe thing to do. The man might then get defensive, as if it’s the woman’s fault for not trusting him immediately. Now the woman has to worry about not only her safety, but also how her safety precautions might offend some men.
              Another problem with this is that men who get defensive tend to then try to convince women that their instincts regarding their safety are wrong, or that they’re paranoid because most men are not like that.
              We all KNOW that most men are not like that, but unfortunately, we’re kind of likely to run into some men who are like that in our lifetimes, and a glance doesn’t tell us who is the jerk and who is the nice guy, trust takes time, and should not be demanded of anyone.

              Reply

              1. Men get defensive because we all get lumped together in these discussions even though women “know” all men aren’t like that. You want me to acknowledge the behavior the author described in which I have, but outside of me treating you right there’s not too much I can do. Situations have to present themselves for grandiose actions of change to occur. From what I’ve been told by Tedd,that’s the only way to help the problem. Those type situations haven’t happened to me. So, I live my life to respect people. Hopefully, my behavior will break stereotypes of gender and race.

                 I’m not inviting a girl to my house for a first date because I’m very aware that false rape accusations occur. I don’t even want to be in a situation as such. Meet me in public so we are BOTH safe. Yes, my safety matters too. And trust goes both ways.

                 By all means, keep yourself safe. Protect yourself. I’m not saying women are paranoid or trust a guy in seconds. It’s just incredibly insulting to know that we can walk past each other and you’ll be scared because I’m a guy. That’s like the old lady that clutches her purse because I’m black.

                 Lastly, Stating “all men don’t” may seem dismissive, but I assure you it’s not. It’s wanting to distance yourself from that behavior because once you get labeled as a vile male it sticks with you. Somethat’s of us don’t want that label. That’s all.

124. I do feel that women have to keep a certain guard up. There are many answers to the questions raised by your post. Thank you for your thought provoking insights.

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125. This is well-written and all the fighting in these comments makes me sad. We should be working together to work for a quality. We shouldn’t be fighting amongst each other because we don’t want to be seen as weak and we don’t also want to go on the attack against all men because there are so many good ones. We all deserve to feel safe

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126. I was really happy when I read this and then i saw some of the comments coming from women. That’s why all this happens!

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127. Thank you. This is a great conversation and one that needs to happen more often among women and men and children. It is important for us to stop pretending.

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128. Yeah I find it very disappointing that there are comments coming from women.. the first comments you read, saying “don’t be victim”. When the reality of the situation is that a person is a victim. Victimhood is not a choice. Especially not one a person would make unless they are mentally imbalanced. Some people claim victimhood for attention, or out of masochism, or even out of habitually being made a victim, that they know no other form of love, but the majority of victims do not enjoy being a victim, which is what makes them a victim. People who have not been abused think that they can glide around and look down on people who have been abused as if it is there fault. And place themselves above them to win the acceptance of who? Other abusive or uncaring people. So certain flowers, in nature have survived because they are beautiful. They are more noticeable and so insects are more drawn to them and pollinate. Humans picked up flowers and ensured their survival because those flowers were beautiful. Similarly with women, it is something that is treasured, a lot of our purpose, is carrying genetics that would create beautiful children and those children survive. But our beauty, our greatest gift is then something that is a danger to ourselves. As if you know, at 14 years old, having breasts and a figure, makes you just game. To other people. She has breasts, and a figure, so therefore she wants to sleep with people, is a really stupid connection to make. The fact that we have to go to extreme lengths to prove we are not sex objects, and then we are made into sex objects anyway. You could have a Master’s degree, a PHD, be running for president, make an incredible speech, I could sit there and talk to someone about theoretical physics, and the response from many men would be so when u gonna suck my hood bitch. See.

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129. Hi, I am on the publishing board of the online feminist magazine Knúz.is and we would love to have your permission to translate this piece – can you get back to us by email, ritstjorn@knus.is?

     Best regards,
     Kristín

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130. Feminist are fucking losers.

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     1. Aw, was the honesty a bit too much for you?

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131. All this shit about being able to do anything a man can do but they can’t deal with the pressures of life. So busy trying to be men but complain about being women when they should be handling that s*** first.

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132. well written and poignant, these things occur so frequently and we are so accustomed to de-escalating them we hardly notice that we are even doing so

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133. I really liked your article. Thank you for writing it. It brought to mind my old boss (a principal) who spread sexual rumors about me to all of my colleagues and parents. She said I was sleeping with a married friend of mine (who she had seen but had never met). How do you deal with women who do this? Maybe this can be your next article.

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134. BAH I SAY! these are things ALL PEOPLE DO ALL THE TIME. Yes, the man to woman scenario tends to take a more inappropriate sexual slant, but this article reads like at first “ah yeah i see no that totally does happen” but then you realize this is part of normal social interactions. Deescalation, minimization, ignoring comments, “letting things go”, topic aversion, turning the other cheek, being non confrontational to appear to another person, THESE ARE THINGS EVERYONE DOES every single day in conversation with other humans. Some things make certain people uncomfortable. Some people disagree with things others say. This is usually not communicated due to a) people wanting to avoid physical violence b) people wanting to elevate or maintain their social standing with a person c) people wanting to avoid triggering inappropriate emotional or otherwise responses in others.

     Im NOT saying the sexual aspect of it isnt true and a problem, but this article was framed way too broadly and didnt do it any justice.
     This article should have been about normal everyday sexual harassment. Men do not understand at all the amount of sexual advancement/inappropriateness that women have to just deal with every single day.

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135. Great article. I’m curious what you think of this:
     http://thoughtcatalog.com/tucker-max/2015/10/guys-heres-what-its-actually-like-to-be-a-woman/

     Sorry the author is Tucker Max. Though he seems to have had a streak of maturity.

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136. A really well-written piece that certainly got me thinking rather than being a defensive male, which is all too often the case these days with angry, anti-male sounding articles. (Queue the predictable barrage of abuse).

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137. I wanted to delete my comment but I can’t. CAN YOU PUT A delete button please? I mean.

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138. You just did the perfect thing. You lined up the whole nightmare end to end. Perfect. Just absolutely devastating. You’re right, guys don’t get it. The moment to moment necessity of awareness. Yeah I talk to my female friends, I’ve heard the stories that were about particular incidents. But it’s the day to day grind that is the issue. That’s the part where tiny details add up to an emotional death by a thousand cuts. Living under siege.

     I recall a couple of times I asked a female friend to meet me somewhere and she was exasperated because it was a place she dare not be by herself and could not safely leave if a problem arose. It took a while for me to grasp that women don’t spend money on cabs to avoid messing up their hair on the way to the club- they can’t take a chance of not being able to park close enough and get stuck walking back through a dark, empty street later. A place might be safe at 2:00pm, but a deathtrap at 3:00am. A girlfriend walked to the store to get groceries but came home empty-handed because there was a “gauntlet of assholes” in front of the store and she just didn’t have the energy to face it. She wasn’t being a weakling- she’s punched out guys who have grabbed her. But that’s the point- guys have grabbed her. And these were those kind of guys. Sometimes the headache is just not worth it. No one should have to live like that. :/

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     1. I appreciate your understanding for this. Only just the other night I was out with some of my guy friends and realized I was in a situation where I did not feel safe walking home (I was at a bar, past midnight on a Friday night and a couple of the guys at the bar had made me feel uncomfortable- invading my personal space too much, too many times, and ogling me), and I was faced with either staying when I just wanted to get home or asking someone to walk me home. It wasn’t a dangerous situation in that I was with friends and knew they wouldn’t let anything happen to me, but it’s very frustrating to have to think that way.

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139. Do not comment on this stating the author is stating all men are vile. She provided examples of men who walk her to her car. That’s not vile. She did not write this because she thinks women are weak and men are strong. She did not write this because “men don’t get raped”. She knows men get raped. She didn’t write this because she thinks she is “attractive”. Do you honestly have the audacity to say out loud or in a comment that someone got raped because they were “attractive” and not “ugly”? Because that’s what you would be insinuating. This is why people don’t speak up, because people like some of the commenters act butthurt and offended. She very well can’t provide every example of everyone’s experience. She is speaking of her experience, and those experiences she has learned of through being a human who has women who are friends. Support women who support women and support men. She is making a statement of the real, true definition of feminism, as we should all know by now as: equality of the sexes. Everyone else screw off.

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140. Years ago when Anita Hill called out Supreme Court Nominee Clarence Thomas, people criticized her for not coming forward with the information earlier, back when she was interning for the judge. At the time, I had been in two or three jobs where I had faced blatant sexual harassment and had turned a deaf ear to it so as to keep the peace in the office. I defended Anita Hill saying, “I’ve never accused any of my bosses publicly or privately, but you can bet I would confront them if they ever ran for office.” Your post reminds me of that time in my life when I held back, essentially–but not really–ignoring the chauvinism of my daily life. Thanks for this great piece!

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141. Put it this way ; if a good friend tells you that she feels bad or fearful or sad because she has experienced one of the situations described in this article. Would you listen? And respect her feelings in this matter? Or would you tel her to man up or that not all men are like this? The point is. Listen.. and be aware these feelings are real to your friend.. it’s up to you if you feel you have to put up a reason or defend. It’s about caring for people who are hurt by this. We can’t change the fact that these things happen. But we would care right. I would, being aware of it is something we can do.

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142. The fact that there are people commenting negatively about this blog post tells me a lot about the state of mind of our society. I’m so happy to see this post. It gives a name to the verb that I use every day.

     De-escalate

     Every single day. Without fail. Shouldn’t that say something?
     ansleyadrift.wordpress.com

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143. Wow…….sucks being a woman huh? Sorry, I’m 50 years old and have worked in a predominantly male job for 25 of those years. I’ve been in the workforce in retail and service jobs since I was 15 and had a paper route before that. So, I’ve been working a long time. While there are times and incident happens, they are typically rare. I’ve had guys check out my boobs, and I look at them and say “Hey, eyes up here”. They don’t do it again. A customer hold a tip to get a hug? Um no. That is inappropriate and I would quickly tell a customer he was being inappropriate. A boss that pats my butt? Um, no. I don’t think that’s been happening on an scale since, what , the 50’s? Maybe I live in a dream world. But I find it hard to believe women walk around oppressed by all these things on a daily basis. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve truly felt offended or harassed throughout my lifetime. Stop being a victim. And, maybe I choose my friends better, but I’ve NEVER had a male friend expect any “benefits”, drunk or not. So perhaps you need to re-assess who you are hanging around with? Here’s the deal, if somebody does or says something that pisses you off, then say something about it. If you are too worried about what they will think of you, then that is on you. And who are all these angry people where you live? Sheesh…….

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     1. I am truly happy that your experiences have been different. If only it were so for most women. When I wrote this I actually worried that maybe it was just me. But then I started thinking about things my friends have experienced. Things my daughter is already experiencing. As for getting your ass grabbed in the work place? Sadly it’s still a thing. The response I’m getting to this post confirms it (I’m at 500,000 views and countless comments here, on Twitter and FaceBook and Huffington Post) It still happens. The “friends with benefits” incident was in high school. It was also the end of the friendship.

        I think you’re missing the larger point. That de-escalation happens at an early age. Not many 12 year olds or 16 year olds or even 25 year olds are going to speak up if they aren’t sure there will be retaliation. I have had aggression thrown at me for simply walking down the sidewalk.

        The men in my life have been good guys. Guys that are respectful to women. The guys I dated in college were great guys who treated women with respect. My husband is a great man who treats all women with respect. I have been blessed to have some truly great men in my life.They are part of the reason I wrote this. There are a lot of us out here who just want to understand each other better. To learn and understand each other’s experiences. If we all could pause for a minute and try to see what others go through and experience without dismissing or berating, we’d all be a lot better off.

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        1. “If we all could pause for a minute and try to see what others go through and experience without dismissing”

           Excellent advice for anyone who claims they know how great men have it.

           Wait, relativism doesn’t work that way! Silly man, complaining is for women, sucking it up is for men. Somehow this is true both in patriarchy and in anti-patriarchy. Yay. When we want actual honest-to-goodness equality, instead of just social vengeance, gimme a call.

           Reply

           1. Keith wrote, “When we want actual honest-to-goodness equality, instead of just social vengeance, gimme a call.”

              You apparently did not read her piece. Or else you are so defensive that it renders you incapable of empathy. If you are not the cat-caller or jerk, then she is not talking about you.

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              1. I think that you missed Keith’s point. It sounds so horrible to be a woman. And yet, like Kelly said above, her life experience is simply not anything like the author describes. That shouldn’t minimize any person’s experience, but what seems to be occurring in today’s culture is this out-sizing of victimhood. And yes, I realize that can be read as a micro-aggression, sexism, or even just insensitivity, which kind of speaks to my point.

                 What seems to be lost on the current “victims” is this – there’s a whole big world out here, and we’re mostly just trying to survive – just like you. I am 56 years old. When I was a kid, roles were pretty well understood. And then all heII broke loose. Now a days, if a man opens a door for a woman, that can be an insult. If he doesn’t, an insult. If he compliments a woman in any manner, it’s an insult, an aggression, sexism, or creepy. If he doesn’t compliment her, it’s insensitive, boorish behavior.

                 Today’s women’s movement claims that they are equal, and yet they also are so weak that they need the government to stick up for them in a wide variety of issues from wages to healthcare to killing their unborn children.

                 If you’re equal, then shut up and woman-up. If you’re not equal, then stop acting like it or expecting to be treated so. You simply cannot expect the planets to revolve around your every whim, expectation, while being endlessly insulted by a glance, a word, or a gesture.

                 My mom was one tough lady. She would find the modern victim status of some women to be a tremendous insult.

        2. Gretchen, I totally understand what you are saying, but your article says ALL women, and it implies ALL women suffer this every day, in every aspect of life. That’s just not so. Does it happen? Sure, but I don’t know too many women who walk around in an oppressive atmosphere every day. If your boss pats your butt at work, you better call him on it. And if it’s a problem, then HR better do something about it. It is not something ANYONE should put up with. Maybe that’s what bothered me most about your article, it’s all about how ALL women have to put up with this crap for fear of retaliation. Nobody has to put up with this crap, and if there is any retaliation, then you go after them. You don’t allow this crap to continue. You just don’t. There are other jobs, other bosses, other customers, etc etc. I also am very lucky to have awesome men in my life. That doesn’t mean I have to put up with crap from anyone else.

           Reply

        3. (male here), I was reading your article. , and at first… I was thinking, to quote kelly5472, “Wow…….sucks being a woman huh?”.. But after a little (and comments) while I was like.. No way this sound like horse shit.. I realize this is an opinion piece since there is absolutely no factual information except for you own experiences and whatever friends, family etc. you have also sampled, before you decide to generalize to the entire female and male populations. It may be opinion and experience based, but I feel if you are posting it online for everyone to read, you are also open to defend and justify your generalizations.

           If on the off chance the article was really describing your own experiences and how you feel. I personally would then recommend you get a great lawyer and sue for sexual harassment (in the end it will be well worth the ass taps for you, be prepared to be able to prove it thought). As for feeling like you are vulnerable all the time, Maybe hit the gym, take some self defense classes and build up your self-esteem and confidence. You will start to feel the changes pretty quick. But in this day and age maybe being a little bit more alert isn’t such a bad thing.

           Maybe thought, since it is only your opinion, and you feel passionate about it. Maybe you can do some real investigating and look into what you are claiming is true. That I would really like to read. Because to be honest, you painted a pretty depressing picture of women (It certainly is so some, and there is some heinous shit that goes on this planet, that people do to each other. It sad really). I certainly feel and hope that this is not the common experience for females.

           One thing i will say though, is that without a doubt, women are being objectified from very young and it does look, like you say, “accepted and de-escalated”. Prime examples is the level of nudity, sexual appeal in virtually every type of consumer product, music videos, direction porn is going, ads etc.. Of course it appears like this, because that is what we are exposed to on the mass scale, doesn’t mean day to day experience of every female is such. However, it would be really interesting to know how women actually feel about all this (from young to old), and why they don’t ask from the feminist movement to work on fixing that.

           Reply

           1. It is estimated that at least 1in 5 women are raped and 60%of rape victims are under 18. The whole world is an oppressive atmosphere!
              Think about how much more common rape is than terrorist attacks. Wouldn’t it be crazy for women to not be fearful? For them to not learn how to assess situations and de-escalate? This is about all women. And frankly all men need to take this seriously or take a good look at their own behavior.

              Reply

              1. No, it is not estimated that 1 in 5 women are raped.

                 There are very flawed studies suggesting 1 in 5 are “sexually assaulted,” which is not the same. For example, it includes such things as groping, unwanted kisses, or ass pats. While this absolutely should not happen, it’s clearly not as bad as actual rape.

              2. How dare you trivialize sexual assault! “It’s not as bad”… Really? Who are you to judge the severity of such things? Sexual assault is traumatizing. Period.

              3. Because being penetrated repeatedly until the person achieves some form of ecstasy at your entire expense is far more traumatic than being patted on the ass.

              4. And how do you know that? How do you know that “being patted on the ass” isn’t in itself frightening, especially when one is a child? I was 12 when a man put his hands on me in public, wearing an expression which said “We both know you want this,” and it fucking terrified me, because I thought that I had in some way given some signal that doing that was okay and I didn’t know what it was. And I had no way of knowing that he wouldn’t drag me into the back and do. ..something to me. And at 12, I had no real idea what he might do, but the fear is real, let’s stop minimizing it.

              5. When I was working in my first job as a 16 year old my employer (and father of one of my friends) asked me to climb up on a table to switch on a plug, I did not expect him to help me up onto the table by pushing me up by my vagina, not even my ass. This incident was not reported.

                 When I was in my early twenties I was date raped, I remember being given a glass of wine and then nothing until I woke up and he was inside me and I ran, I ran (stumbled) as fast as I could. Thank god he let me. This incident should have been but was not reported.

                 As far as the flawed studies go, not all information is in. Did they get the reports from women that have tried to report assault or rape but have been turned away from police stations because they do not have proof? This might not be a problem in 1st world countries but it is a huge problem elsewhere and rape is worldwide. Did they get all the info from the small obscure townships around South Africa not just offices and bars in America? Generally it’s full blown rape here, no cutesy little ass pats in Africa or India or other places where women have ‘less of a voice’.

                 I have been assaulted and I have been raped and both actually are quite equal on my cringe meter.

              6. Please stop being anecdotal. If you are serious about the topic, lets talk intelligently about it, not anecdotal.

                 Let quote some credible source about this, because spreading miss information as also just as dangerous.

              7. do credible sources about this even exist ? it’s so difficult to get these kinds of statistics, considering the so many bias, and the so many unreported, and etc etc.

           2. Unfortunately, I can say that this is also the experience I have had in my life, as well as the people around me. This is not uncommon.

              Suing for sexual harassment is not only expensive, but fails over 50% of the time to even have reasonable cause (source: http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment_new.cfm).

              You talk about vulnerability as though it can be easily “fixed”; however, just “going to the gym” or taking some self defense classes can only give you a small feeling of security. Even a self defense teacher teaches women that they should be aware at all times. Even the teacher feels frightened walking to her car at night, although she might have a higher chance of defending herself from a potential attack.

              In regards to trying to tell your boss about a coworker who is harassing you- if you’re working a minimum wage job they will be happy to remind you that “if you don’t like the job, than quit”. Most of these places do not want to deal with the hassle, and prefer to replace you as an employee than confront another about an incident that you can’t prove. A a server, I’ve been told by my boss that it is my fault that the dishwasher touched my butt because I am “too friendly” with him. I wish I had the means to hire a lawyer and correct this injustice, but again, no proof and no money will not get me results- only losing my job.

              As a woman being on constant alert makes everyday life just a little bit more challenging, waiting for your coworker to walk you back to your car, holding your keys in your hand if you’re out anywhere alone, always watching for people who might be following you…

              When I was 12 years old I was being sexualized before I even knew what sex was. I was taught to watch out, but have, stupidly, put myself in situations where I could have easily been raped and only escaped by sheer luck alone.
              This is not the case for every single woman, and there are women who are lucky enough to have never experienced this- but these are a minority.

              Reply

           3. Another man here.

              Get self deffence classes/buff up: good one, except maybe there is always someone bigger, or with a weapon or ready to spike your drink.

              On another thought maybe try listening, why not ask women in your life about their experiences and wait for it…listen, I mean really listen, don’t say anything, just listen.

              Finally as a man, I know this is the way it is, I have met/seen/had other men seek my male approval for undertaking activities like these. The road side assist guy changing my battery hitting on the woman walking her dog..ten metres away. The guy form my school talking about grabbing boobs in mosh pits, The waiter at my work obsessed with a 15 yr old asking if I “would go halves in a rape charge”, the guy who tells me he hates girls with big breasts and a big ass (I dunno what he expects), the guys leering in uni classes at the other girls, the guys who called a girl’s face boring as he knew he could never dream of getting with her, the guy in a car demanding a female cyclists show him her breasts, the guy who would get drunk and then lecherously fondle women he knew whilst hugging them, the guy with a girlfriend who decided to fondle my housemate in front of his girlfriend so that she had to call me to help so she could have an excuse to get away.

              It is real, it is happening and it is men choosing to take these actions and in part because they feel they can get away with it.

              Listen, that is all the author asked you to do, but you failed at that too. So maybe go try again, ask the women in your life for the brutal truth, let them know you dont want sugar coating and force yourself to not judge them for whatever arbitrary social boundary they may have crossed, just fucking listen.

              Reply

              1. Thank you!

              2. I have to disagree with you.
                 ” Get self deffence classes/buff up: good one, except maybe there is always someone bigger, or with a weapon or ready to spike your drink.”
                 By that rationality why do anything. Don’t be such a defeatist. The major benefits of working out and doing self defense is to gain control, not to get in fights. Something that someone who feel helpless would find rather helpful don’t you think?

                 “try listening,” I am listening.. but hearing personal stories emotional calls. For that I can only show sympathy for. Maybe that is the problem, rather than listening start acting and do something. Why does the author pain as so helpless? Why doesn’t she contrast that against those who are not? What are they doing different?

                 On small scale, in our little universes things can look far worse than they much more globally. I personally do not accept the I am victim only stance. Its like saying I am overweight, but I sit around all day, eat without reason, don’t exercise.

                 I 100% agree that the general young male behavior is exactly like what you are describing. But there there is also more to it. Young women seem to be encouraging it at times, by acting provocative because that is what seems to be cool now. IT DOES NOT justify any derogative behavior against girls, but like the fat person, you are letting yourself be a victim.

                 Just look at your average high school dress code, the music they are listening to, look at what they are looking up on their own time online, and talking about with their friends.. There is a hell of a lot more to every social issue than initial appearances.

                 Why is it also sob stories and rarely, this happened to me this is how i solved it.

              3. If someone is overweight and they are being harassed, the solution is not to ask the person to lose weight. The solution is to tell people it’s wrong to harass people for the way they look.

                 I am not letting myself be a victim. I am victimised BECAUSE I am a woman. An overweight person may be able to lose weight, I can’t just stop being a woman.

              4. . Beautifully written.

           4. This may be an opinion piece but it reflects accurately to the daily experience for many women. The simple fact that you think so little of it kind of shows what she’s saying.

              Reply

              1. Please don’t simplify the situation incorrectly to make it seem like you are saying something meaningful.

                 you like the author claim ” opinion piece but it reflects accurately to the daily experience for many women “..
                 but violent crimes against women (at least in US) are lower than ever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States)..
                 If we are expecting a perfect world, than you are fool and a dreamer, victimizing yourself.

                 If you follow the link above by Laur http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment_new.cfm). do some math. Then there are ~0.004% of all women employed experiences and filed sexual harassment claims with EEOC & FEPA in 2011..

                 Rather than the writting about how women should feel less stressed now a days, author and yourself are presenting your unfortunate experiences as generalization without any evidence.. I am not saying its not happening I am saying stop treating yourselves as powerless to influence your experiences.

           5. I’ve experienced plenty of what is described in this article, and I do stand up for myself as much as I can – in the shock of it, whenever something happens. That doesn’t stop anything from happening again at another time in another place. I’ve had strangers expose themselves to me on the street (super scary), I’ve had my ass grabbed by a stranger as I was ordering a drink at a bar, I’ve dealt with the “friend” who cornered me with some creepy ideas, I’ve stood up to guys who were harassing other friends. I’ve stood up for myself, I’ve had friends stand up for me (which I was very grateful for at the time).

              I’ve also been told not to make a big deal of some of these things by other friends, even women, which was disheartening.

              While you might not see the things that Gretchen describes happening in your presence, please know that they do happen all the time, probably in your community, definitely in mine. When something like this happens, we need to call it out for what it is (unacceptable) and address it as a community, not dismiss it as an anomaly. I hope you’ll do so when you eventually have the chance.

              And for what it’s worth, I do think it’s important fight objectification in our culture, but it hasn’t kept these things from happening to me. I hope that community-scale conversations and broader awareness of harassment will.

              Reply

           6. What you mean by “real investigating” would be actual living. Every female friend I have, including myself, has been harassed or treated a weird way at least once a day. You don’t have to do “real investigating” whatever that is if you’re living it. Saying things like that makes it seem like none of this is real, when it is.

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           7. Everything I read here was so accurate in my day to day life. It’s not something you can just get a lawyer for, say its for sexual harassment and call it a day. It’s a relief to read an article like this that genuinely makes me feel like I’m not alone that deals with things like this.

              Reply

              1. Really, now that you have read this what are you going to do differently?

           8. So, she needs to sue her boss if he taps her on the ass, but she needs proof, which she probably won’t have because that’s not something that can be proven. You don’t see a problem with that advice?

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           9. I am probably the author’s polar opposite and that’s my reality. Almost every example she gave has happened to . I don’t know a woman who hasn’t had at least one of those experiences. IIf a woman hasn’t had that happen to her, she’s the exception, not the rule.

              The author is right. It happens all of the time. It started when I was 10. I don’t talk about it. You just incorporate it into our lives. We live in a hypersexual ssociety, but for a grown man approaches a young is disgusting. It’s not just random guys on the street. It’s our friend’s father, a family member, a friend of our pareparents. You come to accept it as a price you pay for having a female body. You accept that the world is an unsafe place for you.

              I’m so glad I read this. I am so grateful to her for writing it. Hopefully, young girls will read this and know it’s not okay.

              Reply

           10. ValZu you’re not listening.
               Furthermore, taking about something is not playing the victim card. If YOU “certainly feel and hope this is not happening” then YOU should get the stats and figures, that is, if the actual lived experiences of the women around you (just ask And Listen) aren’t “real”enough for you. Money and /or retribution does not make sexual violation “worth it”. If you are under “no doubt” about the objectification of women from a young age then you can be under no doubt as to the awareness and experience of that objectification BY women from a young age. And finally, though there is so much more to say, the people on the receiving end of these heinous actions are not the ones that should have to do something (although if you listened you will hear that they bend their lives to it, all you have to do is make a list of the things you would tell any girl on how to keep themselves safe, to see the tip of the iceberg. It is the perpetrators of these heinous actions, the people who help deny that the perpetrators are the problem, and the people who think that identifying the problem and talking about it are the problem are what needs to change.

               Reply

               1. It is up to those who are screaming injustice to demonstrate it, not for me to defend it. I want a fair discussion, not one loaded with personal experience that is generalized to every women.

               2. We’ve said it happens to us, many of us have said it, there are facts to back up things like rape statistics, what more can we possibly do/say?

        4. As an 18 year old (I’m now in my 40s) I had the boss who would call me “darling”, who would rub my shoulders when standing behind me when I was seated at a the computer, who always managed to find a reason to squeeze past me in the narrow corridor. None of these things seemed like overt sexual harassment – but I always felt uncomfortable, and I knew if I called him out I’d be accused of “overreacting” or “being too sensitive” or being up myself.

           About 10 years after leaving that job, I found out that this former boss had faced jail time for assaulting another young female member of staff. Perhaps the fact I had been going out with a cop whilst in his employ spared me anything more aggressive.

           And I can’t count the number of times when being polite to a man has been taken as flirting. And if you’re not polite – if you don’t smile and answer questions about your weekend (and whether or not you have a boyfriend) – you’re accused of being an ice-princess/bitch. Even online, I’ve had to drop business connections because a chat on LinkedIn or G+ has started getting overly-friendly and crossing boundaries (but you say something and you’re accused of “reading too much into it”).

           There have been the times when standing on a crowded train, or waiting to be served at a pub, or at a concert, where some random guy has either copped a feel or rubbed up against me with a hard-on. If you call them out, you’re “mistaken”, or it was “an accident”, or “you rate yourself”.

           I’ve also had a bouncer corner me and tried to force a kiss (that resulted in a slap across the face); a male friend also tried to force a kiss at a party – then, when told that was unacceptable, threatened to kill himself; another time, a college friend’s fiancée tried to force himself on me at a party telling me all the while how he fantasized about me while they were having sex (then he stalked me for about 3 months until I threatened to tell his fiancée and the police about his unwanted attention. I probably should have done it anyway, but I questioned whether I had inadvertently done something to send the wrong message, and then justified that there really wasn’t anything to report. I regret not telling his fiancée, but at the time I just wanted the whole thing to go away).

           And there are always inappropriate comments from much older men which are equal parts sad and creepy. On my 11th birthday, one such man(old enough to be my grandfather) wanted to give me a “special birthday kiss”. He used to hang out by the pool where we swam and befriended my mother. Fortunately we moved before he escalated things further. But I never told my mother – I felt embarrassed and ashamed.

           Which is part of the problem. Women and girls are made to feel it’s somehow their fault.

           They’re “liars” (even if they’re not).

           They “wore the wrong clothes” (even if they didn’t).

           They’re “being over-sensitive” (even if they’re not).

           They “got the wrong idea” (even if they didn’t).

           They “don’t have a sense of humour” (even if they do).

           They somehow “asked for it” (even if they didn’t).

           It seems it’s never the fault of the guy. It seems they’re never expected to consider if their behaviour could be “misconstrued” and reconsider what they do and say. It’s all too easy to fall back on “You got the wrong idea”, rather than “I acted inappropriately”… or even “Sorry. I didn’t mean to make you feel uncomfortable.”

           And I know I’m not alone in this. I also know too many women who have dealt with the same crap all their lives.

           But women can only do so much. They are only one half of the equation. Men need to realise what other men are putting women through and help change the dialogue and change their behaviour too. We can only do so much on our own.

           Reply

        5. Definitely not just you Gretchen. I relate to so much of what you (and commenter Jane) said. After 20 some odd years, I am so frustrated and exhausted with trying to explain this to my male partner – never mind how exhausted I am trying to either avoid situations or confront them. Thank you for sharing this.

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        6. Wow, people are quick to become vexed. The benefit of the Internet, and a pleasure for the young in the 21st century.

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           1. I’m not young and I’m very vexed and tired of this. Have been for a long time. None of this is new. All that’s new is being able to talk about it with a wide audience.

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        7. Once when I was 13 I went to venice with my family, and while walking in the middle of a huge crowd, a grown up grabbed my ass. I started crying because it was really uncomfortable. My dad asked me why I was crying and I told him. I remember him looking for the man through the crowd, not being able to see him. But I remember me seeing his face as he looked back on me.
           When I was about 17 I was at a party and while walking up some stairs, a guy walking down stroke his hands on my vagina. He also disappeared through the crowd.
           I will never forget these moments, because of how I felt.

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        8. (Male here) great article and all true. But you should write how women sexuakise themselves or used in media in sexual way but accepts and love these?

           Reply

           1. If you want that story, write it. This writer wrote what was pertinent to her and I’m reasonably sure she’s not looking for requests.

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     2. Good job with that listening thing. Your experience is not everyone’s. And neither is hers. But I happen to relate to it completely. There’s no reason to invalidate someone’s experience.

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     3. Also, let’s get rid of the notion once and for all that speaking or writing about something is wallowing in victimhood. That’s petty and quite an antiquated notion and frankly a tired response.

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        1. I would like to add that “victimhood” accusations are a way of shaming the victims into silence so that the issues are not addressed and the victimizers can continue their abuse.

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           1. If someone beats you up there is no way too think away the bruises, to prevent getting bruises even though you are beaten. Mental “damage” is different. If someone “offends” you with words it is you who is making it offensive. If you really think the person in question is talking shit you would not take said person’s opinion seriously and there would be no offence since you don’t care. The “victimizer” isn’t necessarily the one who “offends” you.

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              1. Another who has missed the point and maybe needs to reread this article.

        2. There are people who actually solve their own problems. Not everyone is in the position to let other people do those things for them. Why not keep in mind that certain people go trough that? How is someone saying “I dealt with my own shit and maybe you should too” belittling or berating your experience? You are not entitled to the help and support of other people. Nobody is.

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        3. It’s not the speaking or writing about the issues that is the “victimhood”. It is your implication that all women must put up with this crap or suffer retaliation. That is just not reality. Nobody should put up with this type of stuff, ever. By saying you have to “grin and bear it” you are making yourself a victim.

           Reply

           1. But she’s not [implying that you have to “grin and bear it”], she’s only explaining that this is the reality that she and others go through. People’s experiences will vary vastly due to different local norms and circumstances, as well as their own appearance and demeanour, and countless other factors.

              But (again, man here) I agree with Gretchen that there is a highly excessive portion of the blame and responsibility apportioned to women, while men are hardly expected to be accountable for their words/actions.

              As others have already, I too must inform you…. you are not listening.

              When you refer to your own experiences and view of the world, rather than accepting the information you are receiving, you are not listening. I’m afraid your experiences, if so overwhelmingly positive, are somewhat irrelevant, as there are unacceptably large numbers of women who do live in a reality in which they are made to be sexual objects first, and then a person.

              Reply

              1. “while men are hardly expected to be accountable for their words/actions.” Really? On what planet? If my husband said or did something rude to a woman, A LOT of people would hold him accountable. His friends, his family, his wife. Maybe that’s the problem…..maybe we need to choose the people we associate with FAR BETTER than we already do. Do you let your friends run around harassing other people and not say a word to them? If you do, then that is just as bad. We are all accountable for our actions. We should all be holding each other accountable for those types of actions. There is a whole list of things that THE COPS should be holding people accountable for too…….

     4. I agree with you. I am in the same age bracket as you though. There was some of that when I was younger, but attitude about it makes a big difference. If you don’t put up with it, then you don’t have to put up with it. There are always other jobs…personally, I think it is just like the “little woman doesn’t know anything so we can take advantage of her” routine…I have run into that a time or two especially when dealing with car things. One idiot tried to tell me that our vehicle which was two years old at the time had the brakes put on backwards (would have been at the factory…like duh?!!) I just got all wide eyed and told him that I was only authorized to buy tires, that I would have my husband look at the brakes when I got home. If they act like I am stupid, then I will treat them the same..and enjoy knowing that they are not getting their way! I am married to a man who really is a gentleman, and I have met a lot of gentlemen over the years. I have also met a number of neanderthal jerks such as the author was speaking of, and I understand her not wanting to make trouble..especially if she feels defenseless because of their physical strength. I feel that maybe like you said, she is needing a change of environment and class of people….the ones she describes are obviously the dregs of male humanity.

        Reply

        1. I’m confused by how many of people are posting things like this. ” If you don’t put up with it, then you don’t have to put up with it.” This is simply not true, and a great way to put yourself in danger. Everyone takes a look at the risks around them before they act. Sure, it’s pretty easy to stand up for yourself in the example you gave, when you were in a safe environment. Just because you are able to stand up for yourself in some situations does not mean it’s always the thing to do.
           There are plenty of situations in which it would be unsafe to do so.
           Your comment focuses comepletely on the women in these circumstances and what you think they should or shouldn’t do. This is NOT the point. What the whole article was about was being compassionate and not dismissive, and the way you dismiss the whole article by going on about what women should or shouldn’t do in these situations suggests you missed the point entirely.

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           1. Saying “if you don’t put up with it, then you don’t have to put up with it” is only a way of creating a false sense of control. I mean, that’s not a rational way to deal with someone who has been raped. Everyone deals with threat differently.

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           2. Really, the article is about ” about was being compassionate and not dismissive “. The way its written I don’t feel that it is.

              Why shouldn’t I dismiss it. When authors is generalizing to whole female population, and generalizing male behavior without any evidence to present or ability to defend her own opinions. She is presenting an issue as if its something that is out a women control. If I was a young female reading this… I would be like.. ” I am not leaving my house its so bad out there “.. That is simply not so.

              I disagree with how the author victimizes women, because of her take on certain social/ male-female interaction that are so messed without any critical thinking.
              Like she says women don’t talk about it, men don’t know about it. I am not dismissing the message. I am dismissing the delivery, which is quite franking presenting a one sided, biased opinion, that generalized to larger population, and is like spreading propaganda. I am sure author had 100% full good intentions, but that does not absolve her of the responsibility to write fairly and critically something that generalize. Especially if she is going to post it on the internet.

              We should be having this dialogue. If women really feel this repressed they should do more about it than just accept and de-escalate, and waiting for guys to change behavior and notice. Its just absurd.
              Precisely because this article is an opinion piece based on her and limited number of commentators experienced (in a forum that clear caters to a certain niche of people) it is painting a bias picture. I feel its bias, because many of the statistics present (look above) actually are suggesting that its not as common. Doest it happen? no doubt it does, is it acceptable.

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     5. Yes let’s stop calling each other ‘victims’ for discussing these issues.

        How wonderful for you that you haven’t experienced sexism but to completely dismiss real issues as victimisation is pretty ignorant. Unfortunately this is why women have such a hard time being honest about sexism.

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        1. She isn’t a victim for discussing it, she is a victim for saying that all women must basically grin and bare it or face retaliation. If you are putting up with this kind of crap, you are making yourself a victim.

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           1. So you would advocate the women who is walking home alone at night getting cat-called by a group of guys to confront the catcallers?
              Retaliation DOES occur, and it is moronic to ignore that fact.

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              1. Obviously, no, but the boss who pats your butt? The customer who insists on a hug? The comments from co workers? There was a laundry list of things this woman says she has to “put up with” on a day to day basis. Someone says Hi as they walk by? OK, say hi and keep walking. Since when is “hi” offensive? And, if they get mad because you didn’t stop to talk, then just keep walking and forget about it. Simple as that. That is not oppression. It is just a jerk that you happened by. If you are on a daily basis putting yourself in danger of walking the dangerous streets alone at night, then you need to assess why you are walking around alone at night. That’s not just for women, men get mugged and beat up too. Being safe isn’t being oppressed.

              2. The fact is, if you say something, there is no way to prove it. If you complain about the boss that hits on you or grabs you, you can’t prove it and no action is taken except against you for spreading what they claim are lies. You are the one getting hurt and they get to keep on with what they are doing regardless of anything you say, OR they take the worse option open and attack you for it. We do keep quiet because we know and are scared of what that person will do. You can’t say, well don’t let them, say something…you aren’t thinking of what the women know the possible outcomes are, you are thinking of it being a perfect world where if you say you don’t like something, it stops and is all better…it’s not.

              3. I find your last point that we ought to look at why we’re “walking around alone at night” perplexing – is that supposed to imply there aren’t ever good reasons for women to be walking alone at night? I don’t want to assume, but – for example – as a commuting graduate student who has evening classes several days a week at a campus in an urban setting, I have no choice but to walk alone to my car at 9pm while my classmates catch their buses. I can’t really do anything about that – what’s the solution there? What about retail jobs like the one I had in undergrad, where I had to close the store by myself, then take the trash around the back of the mall to the dumpster? I’m certainly not such a special snowflake that I’m the only one who has had to do things like this. I’m sure many men feel some level of discomfort doing these activities, but I’d venture a guess that most of them don’t size up every man that crosses their path as a potential rape threat because you just never know (that’s what we’re taught now anyway, right?). If I’m walking alone at night out of necessity and I get assaulted, well, why was I walking alone, I should know better – but if I fear a situation that I feel puts me at risk but I can’t change, I just have a bad attitude?

              4. So, the author implies that walking around at night is oppressive to women. Yes, there are criminals who might lurk at night in quiet places looking to assault you or rob you. And any man or woman walking around at night would be stupid NOT to be aware of that. That doesn’t mean life is oppressive for women. I also worked retail. I also went to school nights in a really lousy area of a large urban city. Being careful and aware is what EVERYONE has to do. Male students were robbed as well as female students. The fact that men are able to assault women doesn’t mean women are oppressed. It means we have criminals that need to be caught and locked up. I love when people say ‘Teach men not to rape”. Can you teach someone not to steal, murder, etc? There are sick people in the world. I’m sure Ted Bundy’s mother didn’t teach him to be a serial killer. The point is, these situations mean all people, and yes, especially women, need to be aware and cautious, but it in no way is “oppressive” to women. Women don’t dismiss it and women don’t “grin and bare it”. I’m sure you could have called mall security to watch over you locking up, or walking to your car. I’m sure you could have asked another employee to hang out and wait for you. I’m sure there was ONE other student you could have walked to your care with, or called campus security. Does this mean you are oppressed? No. And were you so afraid that you couldn’t go to school or go to work? No.

           2. I’m gonna go ahead and disagree with you on this. Are you suggesting that when a drunk man twice my size and strength makes me uncomfortable at a bar that I retaliate? Because this has happened to me on multiple occasions. I awkwardly asked my girlfriends to get me away, because that was the situation; I didn’t know him, he could have easily overpowered me and I didn’t know if he had friends with him that could have a) helped him attack me or b) pull him away. Sometimes “putting up with it” is survival.

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              1. Obviously no. But you got out of there, you didn’t “put up with it”. Totally different than letting your boss/co worker or a customer make you uncomfortable and not calling them on it. This was in another article I read recently. Your customer withholds the tip until they can get a hug? Really? Sorry, no tip is worth humiliating yourself to some old dude who wants a cheap thrill. Tell him to shove it. And, I assume that you don’t encounter mean drunk guy every time you leave the house. If you do, you maybe ought to consider going to better places. And, you were in a public place….a bar….wasn’t their a bouncer? Or did you assume this guy would assault you in front of 100 people?

              2. I’ve actually called a co-worker out on his sexual harassment and filed the report. I stood up for myself. Guess what happened? I got fired a month later.

                 Thanks for the compassion.

     6. Sexism doesn’t exist because Kelly hasn’t experienced it

        Global warming isn’t real because it was cold this winter

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        1. Well, based on the article, I guess I’m the ONLY woman who hasn’t experienced it. All day. Every day.

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           1. Sweet baby jeebus, I’m having a hard time believing that you’re not being deliberately obtuse. She is, in no way, saying that this sort of shit happens all day, every day to every woman on the planet. She is saying that, for many/most of us, we experience enough of these things and at an early enough age, that we quickly learn how to ignore or minimise these things when they happen to us.

              If you’ve never experienced it, you’ve had a pretty charmed life. But your good fortune doesn’t mean that it never happens to any woman anywhere. Which, using your own reasoning on you, is what you seem to believe.

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              1. I wonder if it isn’t less a question of “good fortune” but attitude. A number of women have commented here saying, “This is not my experience of the world.” Most aren’t dismissing that it happens, but they’re saying it doesn’t happen to them. So what’s the difference? The general consensus seems to be that they’re simply ignorant of all the times it’s happened to them, and that’s certainly possible.

                 I’d posit that the unwillingness to de-escalate has a dramatic effect on how often it happens. Men who pull this sort of crap look for women they think will put up with it, and shy away from women who won’t, which makes it less likely that a confrontational woman will have to deal with the very extreme examples of the aggressive guy who won’t back down.

              2. In the same way, just because the readers of the blog had similar experiences doesn’t make it so. Just because 1000 women experience is doesn’t either..
                 There 150 million females in US.. What is many?

              3. How many have to before you listen?

        2. How is this kind of shit not paranoia and insecurity? How is it that Feminists have so much fear every day compared to non feminist women? How is it that every single ex-feminist woman turned anti-feminist recently has said that since she isn’t a part of feminism any more she saw the real world and lost a great amount of fear?

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           1. Are you fucking kidding me?

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     7. I agree that this is completely absurd and not at all the experience of “most” women. 29 years old here. I went to college; I work in customer service. I walk around by myself, sometimes and night and sometimes in New York City. This article is insane.

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        1. Pardon me: *at night.

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     8. It is really encouraging that your experiences have been so morally correct and made you feel secure and comfortable. I know for a fact it is not so for millions of other young women myself included.

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     9. Kelly5472 your response indicates that you DO experience these things, you just feel that you deal with them in a superior way. You’ve been convinced that its you who should adapt, not that you shouldn’t have to make the calculations and accommodations you admit to making on a regular basis. That’s fine for you, but not fine for women as a whole.

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        1. Have I ever experienced any of this? Absolutely. Is it a daily occurrence for every woman I know, or even me? Absolutely NOT. I’m 50 years old. I can count on both hands the number of times I could rattle off that I felt oppressed/harassed/etc. My problem with this article isn’t that it happens. My problem with this article is that the writer says that it happens every day to every woman, and every woman feels the way she does. I’m sorry, I don’t look at women as the “smaller, weaker sex” as the author says. Right there, she is putting herself into an image of the shrinking violet who will be abused by any man she meets. Sorry, that’s not life. And there are plenty of women who do not feel this way.

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     10. As long as women like it or respond positively to it, men are going to do it. Some women love to complain about it. Some women only complain about it if it’s from a man they don’t find attractive and welcome it if it’s from someone they do find attractive. I know women that smile and laugh when someone strange notices them and is inappropriate. I also know women that use their bodies to get their way, often times in customer service or retail environments. I also work in high traffic retail, I witness this from our female customers on a daily basis. I know many women in my lifetime since I was a teenager to now (I’m 40) that get jealous of other women that get leered at while they are ignored. Recently I went on a trip with some women to Europe and they were hoping to get some male attention, and were very disappointed that no one looked at them or tried to come on to them (something they were warned about European men). I, like other commenters, do not live this daily hell that I’m sure exists for some women. I can probably count on 1 or 2 hands the number of times I’ve been harassed. This doesn’t excuse the harassers, but what is being described here I don’t believe is very pervasive in real life for most women. Perhaps those of us commenting in this vain are not as attractive as the author.

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         1. That’s an interesting comment about European men. There is a campaign going on against gender violence here in Spain. It seems to me that cat-calling and aggressive staring is pretty much a part of the culture here and there is a definite step backwards in the attitudes of younger men to women. It would be interesting to have some kind of international study, but the “evidence” is so subjective that it is hard to see how you could collect the data.

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     11. Really? Well I’m 23 years old, sexually abused before I hit my double digits. My mother raped on valentines day when I was 15, seeing her after and since trying to cope with what he did. And cried all night long when i was 20 years old at work at arbys when a 6’7″ male coworker bent down into my face yelling at me, I was scared for myself. Dont say dumb things like ‘sucks to be a woman’, you’ve had a lucky life, good for you, but when you say that, you belittle those of us that it has happened to like it wasn’t a big deal, when it VERY much was.

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     12. (Male)
         I had an epiphany reading this that has made me somewhat emotional. I have witnessed all this stuff. I remember being 11 and getting angry at my older sister (13 at the time) for not saying something to an older guy who said she had a nice ass.

         I’ve seen lots, and I’ve partied pretty hard and have witnessed maybe 20 to 30 drunken hookup situations where the guy was clearly lucid and not blind drunk or shit housed and basically consent would have been hard to secure from the girl. And that’s college and mid 20s. I’m 30 now. I still see all the subtle stuff nearly everyday. On the street and in my industry (music so maybe stilted stats).

         Bit I go back to all my older sisters and can remember all sorts of shit I use to get angry at as a protective (little brother) and that they would just take it.

         Not all women have to same experience I know many women who would laugh at this blog post and call it victim worship. I know more than enough women who already have been influence by the modern female conciousness so vivid online.

         And the thing that gets me emotional is doing the math on how many dudes like me have witnessed, directly or were in vicinity of an abuse, assault, or rape (not just lurker in alley but bro on drunk girl) and never said a word about it or even laughed it off.

         And I get emotional not bc I’m connecting it to what my family members have gone through but bc I only gave a shit when it was my female family members and typically only saw those other situations as chick’s who were fair game.

         And even though I’m not some dude bro chauvinist I won’t pretend to be some sort of enlightened male. I’m just a guy whoseems rolled his eyes at the nit picky piss n moan of girl friends who get creep out when dudes stare at their cleavage and I still think k there is a line between assault actions and people responding to their attractions. I still look at women’s Butt especially in leggings or yoga. But I guess the point is as a start I’ll at least try to be far more discreet about it.

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     13. You are living in a dream world.

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     14. Kelly you’re lucky that you feel like this doesn’t relate to you. After reading this article I realise how much stuff I continuously repress because it literally happens every day!

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     15. I agree with you regarding the big picture, the minimizing in general. Comments and gaping by men seem to be accepted if not expected…. remember ‘boys will be boys’?
         I recently witnessed a man of about 70 (friend of the owner of a cafe) ‘flirting’ with a 22 year old woman, a server at same cafe. He wasn’t offensive, he was very ‘proper’ and polite. When my husband and I left the establishment…. my husband’s reaction…. ‘The conversation the old timer had with the girl made his day’ I replied, ‘Maybe his but that interaction made her sick.’ Husbands reaction? “What are you talking about??? All women are they are flattered when a man pays attention and flirts with them, no matter what their ages.” I reminded him that I was 20 once and and the last thing I would have felt in that kind of situation would have been flattered…. they don’t get it, they think because they’re happy, we’re happy. As far as work, I’m retired now, but early in my career I was chased around the desk by a new boss, I wasn’t afraid of being caught and it was so cliché that I did all I could not to fall down laughing! Needless to say, I reported him to his boss and he was fired on the spot.

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         1. So what you are saying.. If you experience sexual harassment or see something you should report it.. Exactly. Don’t take that shit.
            If you can’t beat em with size, beat em with wit.

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            1. Except that you then put yourself at risk of firing, etc. Without proof what can you do? And why should you have to put your job at risk because someone else behaved badly? It’s not nearly so easy being believed. Just look around these comments for some incredibly vivid illustrations of that.

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               1. For about $10 you can buy a spy cam and put it in your office. Or put it on your clothing (looks like jewelry or a key fob) and record it. You GET the evidence and present it to the superiors. And if they take it out on you, you go to the media. Come on, we see it every day.

               2. Again, placing the responsibility where it does not belong.

               3. So, any woman who claims something happened to her should be believed no matter what? The laws of evidence shouldn’t apply to women? That’s ridiculous. There have been plenty of false claims made against men. Yes, you are going to need proof. Just like anyone else. Just like any other crime. If you are going to do something about it, it is up to you to be credible. It is up to you to present the information to the right people and take the appropriate action. Gather the evidence you need. That’s life. Grow up. You can’t have it both ways. You want to be able to do something, then do it. And know that just because you have girl parts doesn’t mean everyone will believe you no matter what, and just because a man has guy parts, doesn’t automatically make him the bad guy.

         2. I remember hitchiking in a big city in Texas… i was completely lost, it was a long story haha, but i had to go to back to the greyhound bus station and had no idea where i was. The man who picked me up was in his 60s. And he brought me to a restaurant, while being very courteous to me. It was not making me sick at all. I knew i was making his day. And he was actually making mine by helping me out of a very strange situation. In the end of the meal he asked me if i wanted to come to his place. I politely refused. He said i thought you would, also, but i had to take the chance. I smiled. He was actually a very interesting human, especially for me who had never seen the Texas culture up close.
            Sometimes we forget that people are humans. I know just my presence with him at this restaurant was honoring him. Why feel sick of this kind of things ? I still hold a good memory of this moment.

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     16. You do live in a dream world. Must be oddly nice to believe that the only thing that is reality is yours.

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     17. Dear Kelly, of course you are right that we can confront such situations and not be victims but the problem here is that: Is it always necessary to get angry, to be in the awkward position to swear or to lose your patience, to darken your good mood because you just have boobs? Are we in a war? I am a polite person and I don’t like to get pissed off. If I was a man, I would have no problem. I want to go to my job and nobody puts pressure on me neither because he flirts me nor because he believes that I am not as capable as he can be.

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         1. Peny, I find it hard to believe, that every day, every man you meet is doing this to you. I may be 50 now, but I was young and very attractive (Hey, I’m still very attractive). If every man you meet is a dirtbag, I really have to wonder what people you are around. I’ve lived in the city and I’ve lived in the country. Most men I meet are pretty decent people. I would call them gentlemen. The dirtbags were few and far between.

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144. It’s this fear, intimidation and victimization that feminism (a very long trend indeed) exists to address.

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145. This is a good post. It is a topic that should be discussed widely until our society as a whole changes its attitude toward women. It is also pleasing to read that some women have taken self defence and martial arts classes and feel strong enough to defend themselves. It is sad that there are woman attacking other women in these comments. It is even sadder that there are girls, young girls who do not have the benefit of long practice that brings adult confidence or martial arts to defend them against this daily grind of abusive behaviours from people who should be their safe protectors. When women support each other, the whole world will change. Peace and love sisters.

     Reply

146. “Oh woe is me”. I thought feminism was about the empowerment of women? I find what the anti-feminist camp is saying is true; Feminism insists that women see themselves as perpetual victims. There’s nothing empowering about that! Why do you need men to change for you? Grow the fuck up already! If you are being abused, say something and defend yourself – that’s how you make your point. Stop internalizing everything and grow some fucking balls! And just so you know, I do not assault or degrade woman. I do not expect them to talk to me or have anything to do with me. I am a respectful man, as most men are, and just because there are some assholes out there that doesn’t mean we all are (as this article suggests). Men have their share of problems too and are struggling in many ways, but we don’t get all whiney about it. It’s time to join the land of the grown-ups.

     Reply

     1. Haha wow you really are a prize catch aren’t you!

        First, I hope you are never raped, but if you are then I hope there aren’t arrogant women around you saying ‘grow some balls Wolfie and stand up for yourself.’

        Secondly, read this back, actually read what you have written. Still think it’s intelligent and correct?

        Thirdly, you say that men have problems too, of course they do, when did anyone say they didn’t? You must see how men are the more privileged gender though right?

        Oh and the phrase ‘grow some balls’ that you used…is actually something that DECENT men are trying to stop people using. You know, because it insinuates that if you show emotion or express feeling then you aren’t a man…just a heads up.

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     2. Wolf, you seem to have missed the whole point of the authors rant. As she said, people try to divert her fighting about these issues “growing a pair” by suggesting there is no issue. But there is a issue and she has grown a pair – And that seem to be what’s annoying you!

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     3. I saw how you did that, took an articulate piece expressing what women may experience and then made it about you. You have an odd definition of respect, I just don’t see it.

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     4. I am a woman and I don’t appreciate this article either. Sure, occasionally I’ve had weird dudes stare at my breasts without any concern for the way it makes me feel, but that’s their issue, not mine. I’m not going to victimize myself every time something happens that I don’t like. If my supervisor smacked me across the ass I certainly would not grin and bear it. I’d do something about that shit because I stand up for myself.. woman, man, transsexual, whatever… I’m just going to stand up for myself period. I’m not going to go whine about how unfair it is and how I’m so hard done by. By whining about how tough it is being a girl, aren’t you kind of perpetuating sexism and making it more of a thing than it already is? And aren’t you giving the allegedly sexist men power? And aren’t you kiiind of pigeon holing all men and doing the very same thing that you resent? I’ve always had plenty of male friends and I’ve never felt uncomfortable or powerless around them. In fact I feel more comfortable around most of them than a lot of women, because I don’t feel judged. As for abuse, that’s a whole different story and this article doesn’t warrant a conversation about abuse. If you don’t want the opposite sex thinking you’re a delicate little princess then stop acting like it.

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        1. I’m with you Natalie and Kelly too. Some people walk around with a big ‘V’ on their forehead for ‘victim’. I don’t know why some do and some don’t but it is the reality. I also would not take any crap from a guy and I have dealt with a few who thought because I am a woman, I could be intimidated. They found out otherwise. But at the same time, I don’t blame women who are victimized by guys (and by other women sometimes to tell the truth). Some people are great at sticking up for others but not so much for themselves. Some just cannot stand confrontation on any level and some are simply afraid of being physically hurt and who can blame them for that. I also acknowledge what another poster said here – that some day my mouthiness could get me into trouble and I’ll push back at the wrong person. But I won’t let the fear of that happening make a victim out of me. You MUST stick up for yourself if you can. If you can’t, find someone who will stick up for you and don’t blame yourself for not being able to do it alone. The shame is all on the bad guys, never on you.

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           1. The problem is, it’s not always clear sexual attacks or overt intimidation. Sometimes it’s more subtle than that.

              I wrote in another comment about my sleazy boss who ended up assaulting one of his female staff. He would find “innocent” ways to create body contact (like reaching across for a pen, or squeezing past you in a hallway). What is there to say? “Don’t walk in this hallway the same time as me”? “Find another pen?”. He’d either find another way to rub up on you, or you’d be accused of overreacting or taking things the wrong way.

              And so you let it go. You ‘grin and bear it’ because, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not like he’s raping you, is it. But of course, when you let these smaller things go, then if things do reach a point where you say something they can say “Oh.. you never had a problem with it before? Tease!”

              So you’re faced with either having to call out every single little thing that makes you uncomfortable and wind up being called a feminazi bitch who should get over herself (or accused of being a “whinger”), or putting up with constant low-level sexism that is all to often excused as “a joke”, or “a compliment”, or something else that shifts the responsibility away from the one responsible.

              Instead of talking about why so many women are “victims” why aren’t we asking why so many men are “perpetrators” – regardless of how women respond?

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              1. I suspect people aren’t having that particular conversation because that wasn’t the thrust of the article, which talks a lot about de-escalation.

                 If you work in a place where casual sexual harassment is acceptable (or the alternative is to get called a feminazi), then you might want to find a place to work that doesn’t accept that sort of thing. Or confront it, and deal with the consequences. Men aren’t going to get better overnight, and they’re certainly not going to get better if you let them think what they’re doing is somehow acceptable.

              2. The point is, it’s not just one work place. It happens everywhere. It happens in multiple workplaces. It happens on trains. It happens in pubs. It happens at friend’s houses. It happens in university classes. It happens in shopping centres.

                 So many women face these kinds of unwanted, low-level sexual advances from so many fronts. And when you DO call them out, you get accused of “being mistaken”, “being up yourself”, “overreacting”, “not having a sense of humour”, “not being able to take a compliment”, etc, etc, etc.

                 Men turn it back on the woman, rather than stopping to think “was that really appropriate?”, or “maybe I shouldn’t say/do something like that next time”.

                 And that’s entirely the point of the article. As women, many of us are constantly put in positions where we have to make the choice of “grinning and bearing”, or being accused of overreacting to unwanted attention.

                 De-escalation.

              3. A lot of people have brought this up, and I’ll bring it up again — how much does de-escalation contribute to this?

                 I also wonder how much of this is regional phenomena. I know that my American friends talk about experiencing this a lot more than my Canadian friends. I know that I saw a -lot- more sexism when I lived in the U.S. than here.

                 Being the type of person to confront this stuff, I’d say 3/4s of the time, the men seem baffled. No one has taught them this stuff isn’t okay. And how does de-escalation help that? They go merrily along, thinking what they’re doing is not only acceptable, but desired. And it’s a minority of men, but given that they’ll do it to more than one woman, I can see how it would be overwhelming to women.

              4. Again, the problem is it’s not always overt sexual harassment. It’s not so easy to burn bridges when your husband’s best friends tells you at your wedding reception that “you married the wrong man”; when Uncle Fred manages to plant that kiss square on your lips (as much as you tried to avoid it); and I’ve already covered the ways an old boss would “innocently” find ways to press up against me.

                 When we make it known we’re uncomfortable – that it’s NOT OK – we get chided as being “too sensitive” or “misunderstanding” what was said/done.

                 That’s why these conversations are so important. So men realise that a “harmless comment” isn’t always so harmless. That a drunken grope at a party that he may not give a second thought, is just another event in a long, LONG line for many women and she has the right to be pissed off and fed up.

                 And often, we give guys the benefit of the doubt because we know they’re not all sleazy assholes. We let it slide because “he was drunk”, or “he was just joking”, or “I only see him once a year, so next Christmas I’ll just avoid him.”

                 Confrontation is exhausting. If we confronted every asshole over every inappropriate comment, or every sneaky feel, life would feel like a battle. Especially when sadly, confrontation is often pointless because our objections are belittled and minimised.

                 It’s kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

                 But, you might find this article interesting: http://observer.com/2015/10/guys-heres-what-its-actually-like-to-be-a-woman/ It covers some of the same ground, but offers a few other insights.

              5. this may be what it feels like to be you. but this is not how i feel in life. and i am a woman too. we have diversified experiences and thoughts, as women. i hope you understand this.

              6. It’s true – not everyone’s experiences are the same, but it seems there are too many people in this thread who are so quick to dismiss what so many of us experience because “that didn’t happen to me”.

                 Instead it would be nice if those who haven’t had the same experience took a stance of – “Sorry to hear that – how awful. What can we do to ensure this doesn’t happen to others” – rather than minimising our reality by calling us whiners, or princesses (which you may not have done, but plenty here have which once again invalidates our experience and implies we’re “overreacting”).

                 But I’m glad you’ve never felt threatened by men. That you’ve never had to fight off some guy who thinks it’s his right to demean you, degrade you, and touch you inappropriately. And perhaps you’ve never had guys whooping and hollering at you, grabbing their crutches to inform you how much “you’d like a piece of this”, or yelling out “show us your tits” or “show us your crack”. I don’t know if you have children, or daughters – but I’d say most people wouldn’t like for these things to happen to their girls.

                 While I don’t allow that sort of crap to create fear, I still get sick to death of it. I get sick of feeling like I have to pre-empt situations to avoid being treated like a pole-dancer in a strip club simply by walking down the street. And I get sick of being told to “get over it” if I make my disdain apparent.

              7. Why did you let it go in the first place! that is what I want to know. You have no excuse not to act. If the consequences are unfair (as they may end up) than you at least have left an already toxic environment.
                 This was my initial issue with this article. It undermines the women that don’t feel they need to feel victimized, and it is supportive of those who share the same experience.

                 For anyone who has experience sexual assault (not just harassment, difference is valid when you consider the correct response) I have nothing but sympathy. Maybe you can share what you did to gain control and how you overcame this horrible ordeal.

                 I think the message of the article is there. Its just lost to many. If the authors intention was to reach out only to those who share similar experiences. I am sure they will find comfort in not being alone. But generalizing like she has is in my opinion a poor way to deliver an important message. Communication is not just about the message its about the delivery and considering who you want to hear it.

              8. Initially you don’t say something because you try and give these guys the benefit of the doubt, because we know not ALL guys are assholes. You think you’re “reading too much into it”, or that he didn’t realise he rubbed up against you that way.

                 Then you try to give a hint: “better not let my boyfriend hear you calling me darling – he might not like that” (because that sounds like it has more authority… as a young woman – barely more than a girl – you get used to your own opinion being dismissed by the “grown up” men). Or “thanks, but I’m not really a fan of shoulder massages.” (“Don’t be silly, who doesn’t like a shoulder rub?”)

                 But mainly, nobody teaches you how to deal with this shit. Or what to do next when your objections are dismissed as being “silly” and “over-sensitive”. Especially when that person hasn’t committed anything that he could be charged with. Sure he rubbed his crotch up against me in the hallway (and the storeroom), but he’ll tell you it’s narrow and he had to get past to get something from the office (or for the office). That these young girls are so paranoid / full of themselves / have such active imaginations.

                 Because EVERYWHERE is potentially a toxic environment. These incidents aren’t one-off things. Many women experience these kinds of unwanted advances from so many different places in so many different ways.

                 Judging others for how they did or didn’t react really isn’t useful. Why is it always “why did/didn’t she do this/that?”. Why is it never “why do men think this is OK and how can we stop this sort of thing from happening?”

                 That’s not being a victim. It’s simply shifting the focus of the conversation.

                 If we don’t talk about it, we can’t expect others to know there is a problem. And if we don’t know there’s a problem, how the hell are we supposed to address it?

              9. See, here is the problem. You mention your boyfriend because he has “more authority”. Really? How about “Don’t call me darling, I have a name”. That has plenty of authority. Or, please don’t touch me. It’s like anything, be clear and be direct. And, if it continues, “If you don’t stop I WILL report this”. Most people (men and women) will push things as far as they think they can get away with. If you let them get away with it, that is on you. Be clear and direct. Stop playing around with it.

              10. Sadly… as an 18 year old girl, no – your voice seems to carry very little authority.

                  It SHOULD. But the reality is, often it doesn’t.

                  I deliberately mentioned my boyfriend because he also happened to be a cop. That DOES carry authority and may be the reason he never pushed things to a point that couldn’t be “mistaken” for anything but overt sexual harassment.

                  And as an 18 year old girl, you don’t really have the skills and life experience to handle a man twice your age and size. When you’re in the situation, you feel intimidated and insecure (which is what guys like that count on), so you try to politely defuse the situation (which is the whole point of the article… de-escalation).

                  Now, as a woman in my mid-40s, I’m far better equipped to deal with these sorts of assholes. But hindsight is 20/20 and pretty useless.

                  The actual “problem” is that this idiot felt it was his right to behave like this in the first place.

        2. thanks for writing this 🙂
           i am a woman and feel the same.
           i actually feel empowered in my life. not scared. not afraid. if someone catcalls me i think it’s funny, not scary. i actually love being a woman, and enjoy the priviledges of being a woman.
           this world is beautiful. don’t let the fear win you.
           peace all.

           Reply

        3. “And aren’t you kiiind of pigeon holing all men and doing the very same thing that you resent?”

           THANK YOU!

           Reply

     5. Dude this whole blog post was about stopping acting like a victim by standing up for themselves making people aware of their experiences.

        I think you just have a hard on for hating on this feminism stuff bc you saw a bunch of meme about tumblr.

        No way you could read this whole entire post and then come up with that response unless you’re just a neck bearded toad.

        My point is, your comment is utterly useless. And lacks any merit. I would advise you re-read and ponder silently for some time than take a second Crack at it instead of desperately reaching for something to criticiz or at least make your criticism related to the content.

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        1. Your such a tool..
           What is the point of the article.. you say ” about stopping acting like a victim by standing up for themselves making people aware of their experiences “. I am saying that she did that poorly. Just cause she typed out something doesn’t make it good, or valid. Communication is more than just transmission, you need to consider who and how it will be received.. She didn’t, and posting it online means she accepts that opinion pieces are to be debated.

           If you take your advice and read what I am saying. You will see that I am offering a critique on the article, not the message.

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           1. And clearly it spoke to many people as well.

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147. I think it’s particularly hypocritical to say that men don’t know what women go through, all the while presuming that, as a woman, you know full well what men go through, and that they don’t already do this exact thing, and much more often, and don’t get the social acceptance to ever complain about it — oddly, not under patriarchy, nor either under feminism. We’re expected to just “man up” and not “bitch” about it. And for all the talk about fighting the patriarchy, somehow men are still subject to this exact same social stigma about never complaining about their situation, even under the so-called equality movement. Yay progress.

     Reply

     1. Perhaps you could be bothered to include a quote from the author where you think that she was “presuming that, as a woman, you know full well what men go through.”

        Because I read this whole article and there is NOTHING that suggests she thinks she knows everything that men go though. Since when does talking about the difficulties one gender faces imply knowledge of what the other gender goes through?

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     2. Nah, you could bitch about it “under feminism” as you put it, but you’d have to bitch about the patriarchy and to other men just as much. And also be able to withstand a discussion of the word bitch being loaded without having a hissyfit. But even long term feminists seem to have some trubs with that one.

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148. I find myself losing respect for a lot of my female friends because of who they date. I worked abroad for many years, making lots of new friends from all over the world and it was always the same. Women I respected a lot would date these Neanderthal idiots for superficial reasons. Didn’t matter what country they were from, it just seems to be universal. When I was single and having a hard time finding a girlfriend. My Male and Female friends would tell me the same thing. “Maybe if you were more of a dick then you’d get laid more.” What the hell is that about? So because I was brought up to respect woman and be chivalrous means im at a disadvantage. not to say women are to blame, but they don’t help by rewarding the behavior.

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     1. Uh…. men do the exact same thing dating certain women for superficial reasons. A lot of people are superficial. I find that guys who complain about girls being superficial tend to be pretty superficial themselves, complaining about how that girl who looks like a supermodel is superficial, when there’s a nice girl who isn’t quite as hot right there in front of him.

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        1. Well come on, of course men are superficial… That’s not the point I was making.

           Women generally reward scoundrels, so why would they stop.

           Nice guys finish last… 90% of the time.

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           1. That’s a foolish trope and it’s nothing to do with this article. At all.

              Reply

     2. Women don’t date men for being assholes. They date men despite of their douchebagginess because maybe they’re really hot or they’re really interesting. If we had to choose between two equally hot guys, we would choose the one who was a good guy.

        You’re not getting girls not because you’re ‘nice’ but because you’re boring, unattractive, humourless, lazy or any number of things (maybe you’re just unlucky). Or you’re just massively picky and you’ve never noticed the girl who has a crush on you because she ‘isn’t your type’.

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        1. Or it’s possible, and likely, based on his response, that he’s also an asshole, just not the asshole that women are dating.

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149. So you think your post is relevant because it got views ? -> It’s not. This post does not make sens at all ( starting with the title ) because all men know about this anyway and it will not stop. You are lucky to live in 2015 because before they would just grab you and kidnap you and rape you.. Now you have to fight this non-stop male thing like males has to fight non-stop rejections and hypocrisy from women.

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     1. Don’t procreate.

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150. Reading this suddenly made me a remember an event that occurred a couple weeks ago. I was at a grocery store with a female friend, late at night, and the cashier suggested that we wait a few minutes before exiting the store because the (male) customer before us had been acting very strangely, and she was concerned for our well-being. I had forgotten all about that incident – probably because it didn’t stick in my brain as being anything out of the ordinary. And that’s exactly the problem! Being cautioned against walking to my car (or other simple, daily tasks) should not happen so frequently that it becomes an ordinary event. You’re right – I think there are a lot of ways that women “accept” sexism without even noticing that they’re doing it.

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151. Look, for those of you who are missing the point (because quite a few of you have) it’s not about scared women who are afraid to fight their battles, okay?

     I’ve fought my battles. When someone says something outwardly inappropriate in a professional situation or otherwise, I call them out on it. But what do you do when those comments aren’t so black and white? When you’re an understanding person who doesn’t want to fight over something you’ve potentially misinterpreted? You don’t want to come off looking like a “feminazi” do you?

     And, what do you do when you’re 13 and some guy follows you home? You’re 13! You dismiss it, call yourself paranoid and try and think about something else until he catches up with you and asks you to “come and talk” to him? At this point, all you can do is run. You can’t fight a grown man at 13, can you?

     Not every situation adheres to black and white context which makes it easy for someone to say “this shouldn’t be happening and I’m going to do something about it.” So, for SOME women (because SOME of you can’t handle an intelligent and rational conversation about an important issue unless we’re being clear that you don’t fall in with the rest of us) this resonates. It’s important. I’ve seen too many women uncomfortable with confrontation. I’ve seen few who are.

     So stop bickering about “equality,” and let’s start talking about “equity.” I have the same right as every other person (male, female or somewhere in between) to feel safe. But not only that, I should feel like I can speak out about these issues. That SOME women and men aren’t going to invalidate it by telling me that I’m not sticking up for myself, or I’m the one getting myself into these situations.

     No. Stop minimising and let us talk about it. Everyone needs to know that this happens, and it happens a lot.

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     1. I think you (and the author) are mixing apples and oranges. There are things that happen that are not a daily occurrence. If you are abused, or some pervert follows you home at 13, YOU CALL THE COPS. And it is rare and NOT a daily occurrence that anyone has to put up with, men or women. The rest is what this author says is the daily oppression of women. A boss that pats your butt. A co worker who makes comments. A customer who withholds a tip until you hug them? Come on. That is stuff you handle. If it is happening, it’s wrong, and you take care of it. There are other jobs, other customers. You don’t put up with that crap. And I find it hard to believe women are dealing with ALL of this on a regular basis. And if you don’t know if a comment was sexist……then it probably wasn’t. Maybe you are looking a little too closely for something that isn’t there. And perhaps the person had no idea they said something that YOU thought you could interpret in an offensive way. There were 3 things in particular that bothered me about this article. 1. the author chose to specify she was speaking for ALL women. No, she isn’t. and 2. the author implies that this is happening everywhere on a daily basis. No it isn’t. and 3. the author says that men are basically apathetic to anything that is happening to women, and basically all the men out there are waiting to abuse/harass/molest/oppress women all the time. NO they aren’t and I’m offended for the VERY good men in my life who would never do any of the things mentioned in the article.

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        1. Look mate. I was followed home at 13. And for half the length of that stalked walk I convinced myself that it was more likely I was going to lift off and fly to the moon than be abducted by this man. I thought, “if I could just walk faster and be unnoticed, he will leave me alone.”
           But I was young and naive. He didn’t stop following me home. He caught up to me, grabbed my wrist and told me he knew my dad. I made an excuse so as not to be impolite (“sorry I have to go”) and ran.
           I got away.
           But I never told anyone. Because I was embarrassed I let it happen. How could I be so stupid? Next time something like that was happening… I’d stand up for myself. How sad is that? I was angry that I let it go that far. I had ideas in my head of the next time it would happen, how I’d stand my ground in front of other people and demand “are you following me, you sick freak?” But, of course. The situation never quite arises in the same way. When panic sets in you do what will de escalate the situation. You act smart.

           But you can never be sure.

           I’ve been oogled by complete strangers… I’ve had people say inappropriate things to me while I’m working at the cash register but sometimes they’re just inappropriate enough to make you uneasy but appropriate enough that it makes you question whether or not they meant it that way. That’s a product of my person, I think. Because I seek first to understand and forgive. And my mother told me to always be polite. It’s absolutely ridiculous that that can be conceived of as a weakness.

           But sure, continue to tell everyone on here that we are mixing apples and oranges. Minimise the whole idea. Take it out of context.

           I don’t think her title (which was probably used strategically to garner reads) should be taken literally. And no of course all the men who out there aren’t waiting to attack us – BUT this is what we are taught in order to protect ourselves. Stay away from strange men. Men that you don’t know. Men that you do know. Because we all know too many women. There are too many situations for which we excuse bad, threatening behaviour.
           Just wear a singlet with shorts and take a walk down a busy road. Tell me how many honks you get.
           Even that, we excuse.

           Reply

        2. Why should women always have to be the ones who “handle it”, though? Why should I have to expend a lot of extra energy and patience instead of some men just behaving like adults?

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           1. OK, 2 things. “Some men behaving like adults”, yes, you are correct. Saying something will help cure that. But there are criminals out there that you can’t “teach” not to be criminals. Protecting yourself from rape, assault, or abuse is a whole different thing, and men and women, young and old, ALL have to be aware of our environment and anybody in it that would do us harm. That is not something oppressive to women alone, it is everyone. Just like some elderly man walking down the street gets hit during the “knockout game”. These are CRIMINALS and we all need to protect ourselves from someone who might be a predator. That is not unique to women, but when we tell women what they can do to help avoid these situations, we are “victim shaming”. Yet we can tell people to lock their car doors and not leave their wallet on the seat with money hanging out, and that’s ok.

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152. I know these issues in the workplace affect men to a certain extent. To the same extent as women… I don’t know. But harassment of men doesn’t hold the same stigma as it does towards women, so the harassment and humiliation can be relentless. Mostly with younger guys who will not fight back because they have very little job experience so they are likely to put up with it. It’s a similar story across the board I guess.

     And please stop saying “rape culture” and “man” in the same sentence. It’s no different than lumping black people in with crime. It’s not that we don’t get it, we get it. The way you present it to us is insulting.

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     1. Oh my goodness. Thank you for saying this!!

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153. Is it possible that men with what you like to call “resting dickface” in your other contradictory toned posts…are just simply deescalating to avoid your inevitable expectation that if they smile at you it’s likely too slippery of a slop to the eventual ass grabbing and expectation for an invitation to be inappropriate?? Sure, sometimes people suck (including arrogantly feminist women) but we all I’m sure could agree on a few things like…guys are innately wired to procreate…and bikinis, makeup and high heels have always been optional…

     I’m sure you’re not innocent of passively fishing for affirmation of your beauty and sexual appeal…as long as it’s from your predetermined list of acceptable feedback channels… Of course

     Reply

     1. So just because I’m wearing high heels and makeup I am “passively fishing for affirmation of my beauty and sexual appeal”?!? Uh no I don’t think so.

        I look good for me and only for me. I am not trying to impress the men at the supermarket if I’m wearing red lipstick. I am not looking for whistles if I am wearing leggings. I want to look good because that’s what makes me feel good.

        So by your logic, if I am wearing a bikini I “am asking for it”? If I am wearing shorts it suddenly becomes appropriate to grab my ass? Your excuse that “men are wired to procreate” does not validate any form of sexual harassment.

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        1. So what you’re really trying to say Laur is…”what makes me feel good is to enhance my appearance in ways that have evolved as a result of human interest in being visually appealing to others…but not like the guys at the supermarket or anything…duh…” Suggesting Rob meant that you’re asking for it because you’re wearing a bikini is an unintelligent response..but not surprising from someone playing the “I just want to look good for myself” card…

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           1. I get hit on and catcalled for riding my bike. In t-shirt and jeans. I got hit on once while walking away from a car accident (in which my car was totalled–I was wearing a winter jacket then). Let’s stop pretending that what a woman is wearing has any bearing on whether or not she’s harassed. All it takes is being a woman who is visible to certain men. And so why should those men not be called out on it?

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           2. Women realise not all (or even most) men are sleazy, rapist assholes. And if we want to attract a nice guy, why shouldn’t we be allowed to wear nice things and look pretty? After all, we’re biologically engineered to be attracted to men.

              That doesn’t give anyone permission to take advantage of us. That doesn’t give anyone permission to degrade us. That doesn’t give anyone permission to take what we haven’t offered.

              Or should we all just wear burquas and stick to arranged marriages to so men don’t have to be accountable for their own actions?

              Reply

              1. So, you dress nice to attract decent men, and if a “not so decent looking” man hits on you or says you look nice, it’s harassment?

              2. There’s a big difference between a guy saying, “that’s a lovely dress you’re wearing” and “hey sexy… how about it?”. One is commenting on the outfit. The other is objectifying.

                 A genuine compliment will generally be welcomed. An overtly suggestive comment generally will not.

                 A girl/woman wearing something attractive is not an invitation to harass her.

154. Wow. That’s what I am thinking right now. I read the article, and some of the most recent comments, and that’s all that comes to my head. This is a posting of someone’s thoughts. It’s a blog that belongs to Gretchen Kelly, which means that she can write whatever she wants. Why are so many people taking this as an attack on them?

     Reply

     1. Because it’s kind of a trend, isn’t it? Women point out their experiences, men get defensive and rail about it. Bonus points if the article mentions this phenomenon *and* it happens in the comments too 😉

        Reply

     2. if she wants to speak of her experiences, maybe it would be a good idea to not label them as ALL WOMEN’S experiences.
        it is actually dismissive and oppressive to us women who don’t share the same reality at all.

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155. I had a huge, tongue in cheek post written about how terrified I was thinking about all the women I had terrorized and traumatized just by being a man. Instead, Ill just say this: Its really disappointing and heart breaking to think that all of the women I know are this weak. If they all really walk around this terrified and meek, then I am truly bummed. I honestly had no idea the world was this shitty for women.

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     1. Matt, the world is not shitty for women. Only some women. And they are not weak. They are just not wired to fight. You should be aware that you are insulting the women you know but saying that ‘all of the women I know are this weak’. Your tongue in cheek is right on – some women (and men) are scared of their own shadow. What can they do?

        Reply

     2. I’m not scared. I’m just careful. Because I HAVE been harassed for being a woman who’s out there in the world. And I HAVE been touched by men in sexually inappropriate ways. And yes I am required to consider what I’d do if they . . . dragged me away, raped me, whatever. And I’m not weak. But you have to consider options and protection. Why wouldn’t you?

        Reply

     3. It’s almost like there’s a woman right now trying to speak up about shitty things happening to her and…a lot of people are ignoring her, or asking her to suck it up. Good job completely missing the point.

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156. The majority of my ex-girlfriends loved this kind of attention and encouraged it. With the exception of rape and sexual harassment of course. They would often boast to me how guys approached them with corny chat up lines or chased them relentlessly at work. One ex even boasted about how a group of guys followed her through town and made jokes about her being a whore. It was mainly to boost their egos.

     So, I think I speak for most men that are currently in relationships in saying that I would love women to be treated equally. It would take a weight off my mind knowing my girlfriend can go about her day without other blokes constantly trying it on. Unfortunately, it tends to be the slimy and arrogant type of men that have the most success with women.And there are too many women that are happy with “selling” their sexuality. So good luck changing it.

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     1. Did you ever stop to think that your girlfriend “boasting” of a situation where a group of strange men followed her around calling her a whore was a way for her to minimize what had happened, much like this article describes? Dollars to donuts, she was terrified at that moment. There is nothing flattering about a pack of men pursuing you through a public space calling you a whore.

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        1. i can’t speak for his girlfriend (and neither can you).
           but i can speak for myself. i honestly enjoy men’s attention and a little bit of sexual tension. i enjoy random compliments. i enjoy when a stranger says i have a nice ass. it makes me smile.
           yes. some of us are not scared. 😉

           Reply

           1. It’s not always about being scared, though. It’s about ALWAYS being an object for men to look at no matter the context.

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              1. i have never felt an object to men. i am far too spirited and talented for them to think me as an object.

                 i understand that someone who wants to initiate contact with me may compliment me on my body, eyes, clothes, etc… because it is the only thing they know, the exterior, if the contact has not been established yet. but this is not an insult, this is also what i do sometimes to initiate contact with someone (but i am usually too shy i wait for other peoples to come.) that or speak about the weather lol.

                 it don’t mean you are an object. it means they are interested in you. and if you respond as an object than maybe yes… they’ll start treating you like one.

                 but trust me. i spoke with wnough men. i know they are not interested in fucking an object. they want soul, spirit, intelligence, etc… as much as you do.

              2. That’s a great spirit, and it makes you interesting… something that many women (and men) sorely lack.

              3. Everyone likes to poke the bear, and see what they can get away with… poking mushrooms isn’t entertaining…

                 http://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/
                 Shit tests… the link is specifically devoted to the ones women use on men, but the inverse is also true.. different men will have different types of shit tests, and look for different results from them… Not that it’s conscious, but I’ll say things that are designed to elicit a response… What I like is an answer that doesn’t come with a facial expression of “huh”?.. expressions of surprise, fire, ice, whatever..
                 In the link, they call it ‘frame’.. how you keep your composure in awkward situations

           2. I get that. There is a poem by Sharon Olds. She is in an elevator and meditating on the fact that some people have sex with strangers. Her poetry is sexy and powerful, but always about her husband. It seems to me that people have different wants and desires and that is ok. I have never had a one night stand in my life and don’t want to but I don’t think there is anything wrong with people who have and do. I was in Porto and a woman hit on me in a bar. We talked for five minutes until she realised it wasn’t going anywhere and said goodbye. She was a good strong woman who was out to “get laid.” I admire that and am a little bit amazed by it, too, because I am in a long-term relationship and don’t want anything else. I don’t think you have to be a Puritan to agree with some of the points in this article though. Some men’s actions are not as life-affirming and positive as the woman I met in Porto. Do you just have to live with the fact that there are creeps and perverts? Do you just have to find ways around the problem? Maybe. But I don’t think chatting up and being chatted up is the same. And I do think that awareness articles like this are good for people to pause and try to get into the other side’s shoes, don’t you?

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157. Frankly, it’s not kind to intimidate or abuse others for whatever reason…the victim always must struggle with the pain in some way…deescalation is one way…that’s all…

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158. Thank you for so beautifully writing this! I know that everything you said is completely true as I have personally experienced most of it and know others who have also. I never used to talk about it because I didn’t want to be called an attention seeker or get blamed (believe it or not I always used to think it was my own fault for provoking men by wearing/doing/saying the wrong things).

     I think more people need to speak up to raise a better awareness of what actually goes on in our societies that go so hugely underreported. Then maybe we will be able to make a little bit of a difference for future generation.

     Once again thanks you Gretchen Kelly for highlighting the truth!

     Reply

     1. Everyone has a different truth and Gretchen Kelly’s sure is not mine.

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        1. not mine either.

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           1. Well, a lot of it IS mine. And clearly it speaks to a lot of women here, so why not just move on, rather than calling her (and the rest of us) a liar?

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              1. i don’t call anyone a liar, where the fuk did you read that ??!

                 i am writing here to make a point. which is this.
                 if you are to speak of the experience of many women, please don’t say it is what all women go through. because that actually is a lie. i don’t go through this. and i am a woman. and this is why i speak out. because this article makes me unexistent. and i find it oppressive actually.

159. The best solution is to get a weapon and learn how to use it. One of the great things about America is that those who are physically weaker (yes, it is a scientific fact that the average woman is weaker than the average man) have the ability to put themselves on a level playing field with those who are stronger, without having to rely on others to protect them. There’s a reason guns are called the “great equalizers.” A woman has a very good chance of defending herself against a stronger guy if she’s armed with a handgun, and she’ll be more comfortable confronting assholes who think they can take advantage of her. Just the simple knowledge that a woman is armed would discourage a potential aggressor. Potential bad guys generally realize it’s a bad idea to bring fists to a gun fight, and those that don’t realize it… usually come to a messy end.

     Of course no woman should have to put up with this kind of harassment, but they also need to be active in looking for a solution that they can implement themselves. Trying to change the world is nice, but realistically it’s not happening anytime soon. In the meantime, the best that most of us can do is adapt. In many ways, living in the world is like being tossed in the ocean. We can sink, swim, or try to drain the ocean. You are welcome to try to drain it, but it would be a good idea to learn to swim in the meantime.

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     1. What you’re suggesting is illegal in many places. Open-carry, if legal, isn’t always a deterrent and can instead make you the target of preemptive attacks. And if you’re carrying concealed (or openly carrying), you can’t just wave your gun around and threaten would-be attackers with it. You pull your gun if your life is in immediate danger, or if the life of someone around you is in immediate danger. A gun should be a last resort in a situation, and does nothing for sexism or harassment unless it becomes life-threatening (and assuming you can even get to your gun). Carrying a gun would only bring me peace of mind that I have some way of potentially saving my life, but if I’m walking down a street at night alone, I would still be paranoid and scared of having an encounter and being put in that situation. I would also still have it in the back of my mind that carrying a gun isn’t a 100% guarantee of my safety.

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        1. Of course. I’m not saying to be stupid with a gun. My point was that a woman can be much more confident confronting anyone that harasses her if she knows that he doesn’t have nearly as much of a power advantage.
           The article’s main point seemed to be that women are afraid to confront men who overstep their bounds, and must therefore overlook or deescalate harassment. They don’t need to feel that way if they know the guy no longer has that power advantage.

           And as long as you get a license, which can be harder or easier depending on where you live, concealed carry is legal in all 50 states, except perhaps NY.

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        2. I mean honestly, I feel like I’m the only one presenting active, real life solutions here. It’s nice to tell everyone to listen to all these problems women have, but as valid as your point may be, it’s not really doing a whole lot to help YOU. All I see right now in the world is a whole lot of feminist awareness campaigns and a whole lot of bad guys who don’t give a crap. Time to be proactive and do what you can do to protect yourself. Sure, a gun isn’t a foolproof way to keep yourself safe. Sure, you’re still gonna be scared in a dark alley. But it’s a hell of a lot better to be scared in a dark alley and know you have something better than a “key between your fingers” to protect yourself. And it’s way easier to stand up to bullies in the workplace when you know that you are armed. So unless somebody can present a better solution, I’m sticking to my guns. Pun intended.

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     2. ha

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160. I am a woman and I don’t appreciate this article either. Sure, occasionally I’ve had weird dudes stare at my breasts without any concern for the way it makes me feel, but that’s their issue, not mine. I’m not going to victimize myself every time something happens that I don’t like. If my supervisor smacked me across the ass I certainly would not grin and bear it. I’d do something about that shit because I stand up for myself.. woman, man, transsexual, whatever… I’m just going to stand up for myself period. I’m not going to go whine about how unfair it is and how I’m so hard done by. By whining about how tough it is being a girl, aren’t you kind of perpetuating sexism and making it more of a thing than it already is? And aren’t you giving the allegedly sexist men power? And aren’t you kiiind of pigeon holing all men and doing the very same thing that you resent? I’ve always had plenty of male friends and I’ve never felt uncomfortable or powerless around them. In fact I feel more comfortable around most of them than a lot of women, because I don’t feel judged. As for abuse, that’s a whole different story and this article doesn’t warrant a conversation about abuse. If you don’t want the opposite sex thinking you’re a delicate little princess then stop acting like it.

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161. https://youtu.be/vNErQFmOwq0

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162. Uhhh, I am a male and what you just described sounds an awful lot like the life I have lived. I have been hit on and patted on the ass in front of my wife, had an older manager get made because I turned down her advances, experienced ageism by those who don’t think I should have risen up the ranks at work so fast, had a female boss get drunk and try to kiss me while at a conference, and was sexually assaulted by the supposed best friend of my girlfriend while passed out while in University (and my girlfriend caught her, lest you think I am making it up).

     This is not exclusive to women and I find it offensive that you think it is. I have a mother that has risen to the top of her field (a fellow of CPA’s) and a wife that has had an outstanding career and I am proud of both. I am not proud of people that complain just for the sake of it or because they have not had as good a life as they feel that they should have.

     I believe in, and will strongly advocate for, equality between genders, races, and religions – I do not believe in, and will not advocate for, creating divides because my life has not turned out the way I may have wanted.

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     1. Robert J. McIsaac writes, “I am not proud of people that complain just for the sake of it or because they have not had as good a life as they feel that they should have.”

        Could you get any more clueless, Robert?

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        1. I think that your response indicates that I am pretty clued in. It certainly didn’t include any rebuttal to anything I said. Unfortunately, that type of (non) argument appears to be the type of response one now needs to expect in any type of discourse as it seems most people are unable to refute or debate anything another person has said without devolving into insults. .

           When I was in University, basic logic was a required undergraduate course. It’s unfortunate (and I’m 33, so not exactly a dinosaur)

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           1. Robert 1, STGreen 0

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     2. Why do you assume that this post is directed at you? It’s clear to me she is addressing the people who think she is being over-sensitive. She talks about it in the very first paragraph.

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163. I agree with a lot of the above points but I think it is a little one sided….Milo sais it better than I ever could…

     http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b3f_1448188608&comments=1

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164. a quote directly from one of your previous blogs…

     “What if we stopped assuming that men are not able to control their lustful urges and must be protected by covering the female body in school or in the science lab or on the street? What if we stopped reducing men to bumbling idiots with no self control?”

     interesting I suppose that you elect not to heed your own advice when it suits you to serve as the voice of “ALL” women…

     the simple fact that i got to this article by way of a women I respect posting it in her news feed with the comment.. “This is so true” means you are contributing to the continued propagation of this notion that women aren’t in control of their daily lives but yet mere sexual prey… which is simply dumb and counter to what I think you’re trying to achieve here…

     I hope you’ll reconsider when you consider speaking on behalf of “ALL” of any group of people in the future. that’s very careless and very unintelligent…

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     1. Yeah, it seems to be the trend that women can dress any way they want, have as much sex as they want, basically do anything they want without consequences, yet at the same time, they are too weak and frail to stand up to the occasional cat call or getting hit on by a guy. There are SO many mixed messages in all these “blogs”. And, many women today can’t seem to differentiate between criminal behavior (sexual assault) and basic human nature ( guy sees a woman he’s attracted to and wants to talk to her). I love that women talk about rape culture and how we shouldn’t teach women how to protect themselves we should “teach men how not to rape”. LOL. How do you teach criminals with a mental deficiency NOT to be a criminal? Can you teach someone not to steal? To murder? I’m sure Ted Bundy wasn’t trained to be a serial killer or Jeffrey Dahmer to eat people. So many mixed messages on both sides.

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165. The latest comments are so hilarious because everyone is telling woman to quit being “victims” and “stick up for yourself”, and the author is basically doing that by writing this article, and she is still “wrong”. In the words of the teenagers today, “I really can’t” with you guys right now. Ever heard of empathy???

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166. I’m sorry most men are so shitty. Its insane that I can walk around the dark alleys of downtown Orlando and feel safer than a woman walking to her car from work.

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167. I read this article, and thought it was so great to open up a dialogue about this. To encourage people to listen to each other, and speak about their experiences.

     And then I read the comments.

     So many of them are part of the problem. This isn’t about “whining” or “being victims” or being too weak to stand up for yourself. What I got from the article was not an attack on anyone. It was simply opening up a conversation about people’s experiences. And it is great to hear that many women have not experienced this. It’s also terrible to hear that some men have. No one should have to experience harassment, or violence, but unfortunately, it does happen.

     I have been in so many of the situations mentioned above, unfortunately, and the majority of them happened in my teens, and early 20’s, before I felt confident, or secure enough to stand up for myself. I remember a time when I did stand up for myself though, after a guy at a bar grabbed my ass. When I angrily confronted him, he threatened to punch me in the face. Thankfully, there was a bouncer nearby, who quickly intervened, and kicked this guy out. However, you better be certain that I thought twice about saying anything the next time it happened. And there most definitely was a next time. And a time after that. It does happen all the time, and people arguing, and negating these experiences, or telling people to stop whining, is part of the problem.

     If you choose to turn a blind eye to it, that is your right. Just as it is this bloggers right to share her experience, and encourage others to share their story.

     Thanks for the great article!

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168. Excellent advice. Gretchen. Well put.

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169. I am a man. While I do feel sorry for your experience and for every woman who gets harassed or abused in any way, and there are too many, I resent this sempiternal sense of being victimized that I see in so many women.

     Do you know how many men get abused? By other men I mean. I am not even talking sexually here. Threatened, bullied? How many? Most of them I think. Have you ever actually been beaten? If you have, I am sorry, but I believe that more men have. How many men have NEVER been beaten or pushed or threatened, bullied, punched, been insulted in their manhood or any other of the traditional taunts boys use on boys? How many had to de-escalate if they managed not to be beaten.

     The thing is, men learn early that they need to either de-escalate or fight, and for a man, there is still more expectation of physical “honor”, it is harder to back down, to bend over.

     So please, enough with the sense of entitlement that women are treated especially badly. I think more men get beaten than women, so let’s fight the bullies and not try to race for the most oppressed side.

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     1. Perhaps then instead of focussing on the victims (either gender), we need to focus on why men are so aggressive without deflecting things back to the victim or shifting the conversation to how they are victims of abuse from women (which is usually the other thing that happens).

        Stats show that 75%-90% of all violent crime globally is committed by men, so let’s start being honest and have a real conversation about it.

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        1. that depends on what you mean by ”violent”… you mean physical ?
           i don’t have statistics, but i know that women’s violence is more subtle. manipulation. blackmail. insults. whining. etc.

           the violence is a cycle. it does not belong to men or women. both do it, in different ways. and one violence feeds another violence.

           after being manipulated and feeling like shit, a man may resort to physical violence against a woman. maybe not the one who did the manipulation. and the same for women. after being treated like shit by a man she will feel insecure and belittle him with saying mean things so he feels guilty of something another man did.

           and it passes on. the cycle of abuse and fear and hate. it’s sad.

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           1. And let’s turn it back to being all the woman’s fault again.

              By violent, I mean “causing physical harm”. Punching, kicking, raping, cutting, murdering.

              Yes, women can be manipulative and make guys feel like shit. But beating someone up for bruising your ego is not an acceptable response. Threatening to harm someone who doesn’t want to date you, or have coffee with you, is not an appropriate response.

              But as Joe rightly pointed out – men also cause the most harm to other men. They are also at the greatest risk of physical harm from men. Until we start to seriously discuss why men are so violent, things will not improve for women OR men.

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              1. no, it is not the woman’s fault.

                 i will say it again. it is a circle that keeps turning. and it is sad. and it is useless to look for whose fault actually, because it keeps bouncing back. what is important is to stop all kinds of violence, physical, relational, mental, systemic, etc… in ways that actually work.

                 finding a culprit does not solve a problem. it just gives us someone or something to be mad about. but madness may be a waste of our time in this situation. what this world needs is intelligence and love.

              2. Actually, finding the culprit DOES solve the problem – regardless of who the culprit is.

                 If we keep ignoring the culprits, we absolve them of responsibility and, nothing is going to change.

                 And the reality is, the majority of violent crime and sexual assaults (on women AND men) are committed by men. This doesn’t mean we should hate on all men. But it does mean that we need to start asking why this is the case – and men need to start calling each other out when other men act like asses.

                 Clearly they’re not listening to women. It needs to come from them. And the first step to solving the problem is acknowledging it exists.

              3. yes, we do need to ask why. and often when a man is violent towards a woman, it regresses back to childhood trauma. possibly unconscious psychological violence from the mother, because she was frustrated of her interactions with men and projected into her son. sometimes it is violent to tell someone it is not ok to be who they are. to repress someone. all repression ends coming back up, in more violent ways. like a volcano.
                 and this is what i meant by the cycle. violence is passed on. and no it is not the victim’s fault. and yes we can break the cycle. but we have to look deeper than just pointing at someone and saying ”you did this” and put them in jail. the problem is deeper. the solutions are deeper.

              4. Given the numbers, I can’t see that it always stems back to psychological violence from the mother (although I’m not saying this doesn’t ever happen – just it’s not likely to be the primary cause).

                 Historically, women have been treated as second-class citizens – often supported by religious teachings. There is a long, LONG cultural history – around the world – of women being seen as “less worthy” than men. It’s been so ingrained into our psyche that many men, and women, still believe it.

                 We live in patriarchal societies where it is predominately men (often of faith) that decide the rules, make the laws and influence almost every corner our lives. As women, we are starting to make progress in changing the balance of power, but in both the US and Australia (and I imagine the UK and parts of Europe are much the same) 80-90% of those in government and our other highest institutions are still older, conservative men.

                 And so, either these people need to use their influence to start changing the conversations and attitudes (not just paying lip-service to them – yesterday our immigration minister tweeted about women and children having the right to be safe, while still keeping women and children locked up without trial in detention centres were physical and sexual abuse are well documented), or we (women) need to start educating the younger generations so they break these long ingrained behaviours.

                 In its own way, a blog like this is a great way to reach out to that generation (of men and women) to help them understand the issue and reconsider their own attitudes and behaviours. It has certainly been tremendously effective in instigating conversation!

        2. If you are going to talk “globally” and compare men here with men in third world countries, perhaps then we need to compare women’s lives here vs. in third world countries? Let try to stay on point, huh?

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           1. Fine. 75-90% of violent crime committed in 1st word countries is committed by men (supported by data collected by law enforcement agencies in countries such as America, Australia and the UK).

              Please note, that isn’t saying 75-90% of all men commit violent crimes.

              We know that not all men, or even most men, are violent or predatory. However, enough are to put most women (and some men, no doubt) on guard with men they don’t know extremely well.

              The fact remains, men tend to deal with emotion/fear/stress in far more aggressive ways, which impacts the safety and security of other men and women. Ignoring such facts won’t make them go away.

              It does not ignore that 10-25% of violent crime is therefore committed by women. However, men are overwhelming the main offenders. We need to start asking why this is and finding ways to redress those numbers.

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170. Hi, I am a 30 male reading this blog, and have to say I truly appreciate the courage you displayed in writing so boldly about the experience a lot of women have- and as displayed in the comments- have to contend with so much when speaking forthright. Unfortunately, many people, men especially but also some women, like to minimalize, cast down on, or simply dismiss, in one way or another, you concerns as overly sensitive. I think they are completely legitimate. Thank you so much I encourage your boldness, and stand on your side amidst all the comments.

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     1. thanks for speaking of some women and not all women. 🙂

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171. The authors who write the truth are often the most criticized, but they often start the revolution. Thank you for saying what others are afraid to. 🙂

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172. Thank you for this post!! You inspired me to write candidly about this topic as well in the context of my own new blog. I’m looking forward to posting it as my writing gains some momentum. It’s so important to share these realities with the men in your life!!

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173. Reblogged this on Breaking Out of the Box and commented:
     Being a woman, you are always afraid of being raped or killed because some man feels entitled.

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     1. Can’t tell you how many times I thought the same about anyone who feels entitled. If you hung around a lesbian bar, do you think you will experience the same?
        Probably

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        1. Ummm, I have and did for years. Because I felt safe. I was hit on a few times, but unlike with straight men, if you say no to a woman, she generally says “Oh, okay, enjoy your night,” instead of continuing to hassle you for a yes.

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        2. Most likely not. I’ve been to lesbian bars and when I tell them I’m not a lesbian, they back off. There was only one who was a crazy stalker bitch, but I have more trouble with men violating boundaries.

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174. As a member of the anti-trafficking movement, I applaud this post. If over 400,000 girls are trafficked annually in the U.S. alone, imagine how many are being sexually exploited each day. People need to take off the blinders. Thank you for raising awareness!

     Emily Shore – up and coming author at ZSH Literary for her book, The Menagerie, a dystopian that takes on the devastating world of sex trafficking.

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175. This article is so true. I think of all the jobs I gave up or lost because I wouldn’t put out or it became clear that your job depended on “protection”…. starting with my first job at age sixteen….no take that back ot age thirteen. And people wonder why woment don’t have healthy retirement incomes??

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     1. “all the hobs I gave up or lost because I wouldn’t put out or it became clear that your job depended on “protection”……..your joking, right? I mean, once maybe, but come on. I lived and worked in the city as well as in rural areas. I’ve been working since I could do a paper route and later got a “regular” job at 15 and have worked my entire life. Never once did a job seem like it “required putting out” and only once did I actually experience harassment that I made sure didn’t continue. And I have worked in predominantly male environments………I have to wonder if this is happening time and time again, what the common denominator is?

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176. Reblogged this on example1414 and commented:
     Totally good, shows the women’s thoughts.

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177. I live my life in optimism, love and speak up when I feel uncomfortable. I lived my life this way on and off since age 10. Being a sexual assault, and rape survivor I have done a lot of work on myself.

     Now I am a Hatha yoga teacher, model, professional dancer, animal rights activist and now I want to teach consent culture workshops.

     It takes a lot of courage and strength to constantly point out injustices. However still, like in this article, sometimes the risk of my safety is too high to say something.

     In general following the book “the game of life and how to play it” the power, power v.s force, patanjali’s sutras, the yogic yamas and niyamas, and understanding the way to move chi will really transform your life to love and over time you will attract more love and prosperity. The dark times fade away, and you only have supportive people left.

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178. I find it amazing how one person speaking of her experiences can cause so much anger and hatred to spew forth. Maybe i read a different post, but no where did I see anything that demoralized men who have felt harrassed or threatened in the article. It’s not a crime to speak of this issue with regard to women while not mentioning men who deal with it as well. As for women who like the attention, I would dare say that there is a huge difference between a cheesy pick up line from an admirer who accepts a no thanks and a smile with ease and someone attempting to intimidate. The problem is that so many people (and you will notice my deliberate use of the word people) think they have a right to demand someone’s attention, that many people are defensive before any interaction takes place. Why is that? Because this has happened so frequently that we’re all hyper aware.

     I was sexually abused as a child. I was raped as a young woman. When I was 19, I was so hyper aware that if anyone smiled at me for too long I was uncomfortable. I wore a wedding ring to work so men wouldn’t talk to me. I eventually learned how to tell a dirty joke and throw enough innuendo back that I became one of the guys. Now, I’m the one everyone runs to, to save them from confrontation. Is that a form of de-escalation? You bet. And it completely changed my personality. I trust no one and I am absolutely known as a bitch.

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179. Thank you so much for writing this. Every sentence spoke to me deeply. I am a 23 year old woman. I think about this every day of my life. I have some support, but I also often feel very isolated, thinking that I am crazy to think these things and at the rate and depth that I do. Thank you for showing me I am not alone, or crazy. I have shared this on Facebook and also directly sent it to the closest men in my life. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this truth down. Please feel free to email me or find me on Facebook to further connect. Thanks again.

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180. Reblogged this on Surviving Cookie Cutter Dating.

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181. Listen. Don’t talk. Don’t argue. Don’t belittle. Listen. Imagine if that were your experience. Listen. Really listen. As I read this article I was flooded with so many times I “ignored it”. Some weren’t worth my time, some were terrifying and most were somewhere in between. I still remember walking through the subway tunnels between Port Authority and Times Square, coming home from work around 4am. I was alone. Then I start hearing whistling. The hallway echoed and I couldn’t tell if I was moving away from or going toward danger. My heart raced, I sped up. The only option was forward or backward. The whistle happened again. I still couldn’t figure it out. I was almost in tears I was so scared. It wasn’t a “hey sexy” whistle – it was a creepy “I see you and you don’t see me” whistle. I turned a corner and had a moment of relief as I saw the police box. But it was short lived. Two male police officers were in there. Then I noticed they were laughing, laughing hard. And the whistle happened again – but this time I could hear the laughter. It was the cops. They had watched me on the security cameras. I was their free entertainment. The windows were so smudged and I was so scared I didn’t get their badge numbers. I can still see the blurry badges behind the plexi-glass. I took off. I jumped on the next train and went home. I felt dirty. and Pissed. I was shaking from the adrenalin. But what was I going to do? Who was going to believe me? They “just” whistled right? Well *F* you to whomever thinks that was okay. Or the time a guy was an ass to me and so I stood up for myself. I told him to go to hell. His response? He pinned me and held his fist over my face and told me “don’t ever talk to me like that again”. There was nothing I could do. NOTHING. Someone came in and he let me go. There were times when I said something and it worked. They stopped grinding on me in the over-stuffed subway – granted there were enough people and dirty looks. Or the group of guys that cat-called me on the train and followed me as I changed 6 cars, I finally went to the surface in the wrong place and took a cab. That little endeavor cost me $25. I’ve carried my keys ready. I’ve walked faster. I’ve changed my route. Every day? No. But enough days that I watch people. I assess all the time. I don’t even realize it anymore. Reading this was like waking up. And I’m mad. And some of you won’t listen. You accuse and dismiss. I am not a victim. but I have been victimized. And its not my fault. We have to do better. We have to listen. Really listen and value one another. Including ourselves.

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     1. Hear! Hear!

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182. What you say is real for many women but it’s up to us to change things. I mean I’m 19 and my mom always taught me how to defend myself and never let anybody bother me in any way. I guess you teach your daughters to do the same so I’m sure you understand ! I think it’s pretty cool to know you’re part of so big of a change ! 🙂

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183. You have explained this so well. It never ends. It is worse outside of big cities, way worse. It keeps too many good women down. Keep on writing. SC

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184. I think I’ve experienced almost everything on your list, plus some listed by commenters except maybe the tip one, and feel you described my own experiences 100% to a tee. I always thought it was just me, though, who experienced the world this way. I am relieved to know it is not.

     I have never said much to anyone, because I don’t in any situation of my life see myself as a victim, and for me, moving on is part of how I defend myself from what they did. Unfortunately I’ve learned over many years that you can choose to move on from actively thinking about it, but you can’t move on from the mental and emotional scars, and from the trust issues with men it creates. The pervasive, undercurrent of fear that lines every moment spent outside of “safe spaces,” like home or with close friends or family is not something you can really “choose” to do something about.

     Getting married and talking openly with my husband (who is a wonderful, kind and caring gentlemen, who has not and would never do any of things your article mentioned) about some of things has given me some perspective a few things, though:

     – Most men are good, kind, and decent, and treat women with respect. While I think the prevalence of the things you mentioned is pretty accurate, but I also think a lot of these things are done by a small number of men who do them over and over again. Also, the times when things DON’T go right tends to stick out in our memory from all the times that they do, and this naturally skews our perspective as to what “men” in general are like. The thing is, these “bad apples” are rarely stopped, and so what they do continues affects many women.

     I’m not sure many men, no matter how much they dislike what these kind of guys do know how to deal with, outside of legal action brought by their victims, because if they won’t listen when a woman tells them that their behavior is inappropriate, it’s very unlikely they’d listen to another man, either.

     – I think many men truly have no perspective on what it is like to feel vulnerable, and so that is why it is difficult for them sometimes to understand or sympathize. My husband and I were planning a trip to London, where I would precede him by a couple of days. Many of my plans for traveling around the city were based not only on what I wanted to do, but on safety factors, since I would be traveling alone. My husband didn’t understand my planning process at all, until finally it dawned on him–he’d never had to include thoughts about personal safety in his planning because as a fairly sturdy man, he’d never felt vulnerable before. He actually said this, “I’ve never felt vulnerable, so I’ve never thought about any of this.” The thought simply had never crossed his mind, so he didn’t take it into consideration for himself.

     – For as much as we women experience terrible men doing terrible things, men also experience “crazy” women doing terrible things as well. Manipulation, false accusations of rape, defamation of their character, filing unfounded sexual assault claims and tarnishing professional reputations, assault, rape, etc. Men rarely report rape or assault by women because of strong social stigma and lack of understanding about how it’s even possible for women to perpetrate crimes like these against men, but they are not uncommon, as much as they are underreported. It is not the same thing as the things this article addresses, but these are all still traumatizing things in their own way and further widen the divide of trust between men and women. However, men are not “allowed,” socially, to receive sympathy for these things, and are often automatically judged as the perpetrator, regardless of whether they were or not. I have personally witnessed women doing things like this to men, and seen the results. I can understand some men’s frustration when we want them to listen to us, but aren’t willing to do the same in return.

     The bottom line is we all have a responsibility to call out and refuse to accept harassment whether it’s women calling out other women, men calling out other men, or men and women refusing to accept abuse or harassment from each other, but it’s very hard to speak up for yourself, especially when you’ve been conditioned not to from a young age.

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     1. thanks for seeing both sides 🙂
        refreshing. someone who is able to step our of herself.

        interesting what you speak about vulnerability. i am a woman, and i have never thought about this really. i have been hitchiking all across canada alone, and i have had no fear at all of doing so. i have had one bad encounter in all my hitchiking years. on the moment i was really scared. it was a rape. but when i came out of the car, i checked myself. i have lost nothing. i have advanced on my trip. the guy had the decency to put a condom. i even had some of the weed that we smoked left ;)… harmed ? ok yes maybe my pride. but physically and even emotionnaly intact. classified it as an experience amongst other experiences. and continued on hitchiking for the next couple of years with no fear, just a desire to see the world and learn of life.

        some would say i am ”de-escalating”… but i don’t think i am. i am just not ”escalating” it. 😉 the knife i carried on me all these years only served me for cutting avocado and cheese on the road.

        so from my point of view i wonder what all these people are so scared of. there is a whole world out there. and for the most part, it is really awesome.

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185. Grown women staring at your crotch since your early teens, colleagues coming on to you at work events and questioning your sexuality when you tell them no you have a girlfriend, missing out on promotions because you aren’t willing to sleep with the boss or tolerate her near constant innuendo – life isn’t great for us males either!

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186. please don’t speak of ”all women” when you speak of your experiences. it is actually dismissive and oppressive for those of us who don’t share your point of view. we exist too. and we are women too. thanks for remembering this, another time.
     peace, and i hope you feel better 🙂

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187. Great article. Thank you for writing this. I do agree that men are mostly not aware of this pervasive issue or don’t see it as an issue.

     I think the key is to understand that men won’t change. They’re dumb. They’re numb. They’re culturally conditioned to not listen. Some have broken thru, but I see the problem being that you don’t need to de-escakate any more. You’re setting yourself back. You need to ESCALATE.

     I really don’t men to offend or belittle. I know that women face very dire situations all around the world. I strongly believe that de-escalating is part of the problem. Men are dense. They don’t get subtle hints that, “hmmm she might feel uncomfortable.”. Men don’t have that high of a sensitivity to feel that deeply. But a SLAP ON THE FACE… Men can reach e that loud and clear. OK, so you can’t go around slapping everyone, but you could say, ” please get away from me, you are making me uncomfortable “. I could go on.

     This war won’t be won by asking men to change. That is a pipe dream. This war won’t be won by being the best at De-escalating. This war is won by making men uncomfortable for being creepy jerks. And they damn well deserved to feel that way.

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     1. That’s a nice idea. But many men even see mild calling out as a major confrontation. I had a man follow me (I was riding my bike) because he cat-called me and I (sweetly) made eye contact with him and firmly said “I’m not interested in talking to you.” His response was to call me fat and run after me. I was a grand total of about three blocks from my house and instead of going home, I made a “false” turn and rode for another half an hour to make sure he was really gone before I went all the way home. And then for the rest of the day I wondered if he was going to wind up in my front yard. Being direct (even nicely so) sometimes gets you into trouble too.

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188. Reblogged this on Andreea Garden and commented:
     “So, maybe the good men in our lives have no idea that we deal with this stuff on regular basis.

     Maybe it is so much our norm that it didn’t occur to us that we would have to tell them.”

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189. Wow, totally agree with this article. As a young teen (maybe 12-13), my sister (10-11) and I would walk down the street and get wolf whistled. It disgusted me at the time and it disgusts me now but I always knew just to ignore it (not sure what age I learnt that lesson). I have worked in a job (hospitality) where I have been grabbed on the ass, handed someone’s room key as a joke in front of his colleagues, and countless times had people make comments and gestures towards me that were inappropriate. I learnt that to survive in that situation I needed to be able to give the smart ass comments straight back to them and embarrass the person in front of whoever they were showing off to so they wouldn’t try it again. Does that make it okay they did that? NO! I’ve had my ass grabbed by random people in a bar and had their mates laugh, , I’ve walked home with my house keys between my fingers, I’ve been scared to walk to my car cause a guy hit on me just before closing time and could be in the carpark, I’ve had male friends (or so I thought) assume I would have sex with them because I spoke to them. Most of the time, I would say something back and stand up for myself but that doesn’t make it okay that they did those things. I have had my drink spiked and woken up not knowing what has happened to me, I have had a boss tap me on the ass when he was drunk. I have had a boss verbally abuse me in front of customers. I have had a boss use his size to back me into a corner and speak hunched over me right in my face, the very same boss who was sexually harassing my young (15-18yr old) staff. I followed what I was supposed to do and went to my male area manager 3 times. He did nothing!! Eventually I ended up going over his head to our HR manager who told me I needed to get more ‘evidence’ before eventually firing his ass! 12 months my staff and I endured putting up with this. Did I leave? NO because I had the responsibility of other young children on my head and I had to do what was right for them.

     The point of this article is that it doesn’t matter if women stand up for themselves or not, these experiences permeate our culture! It is part of life for women from a very young age!!! The point of this article is that unless we speak about these things, how are men to know how often this actually happens. Unfortunately, I don’t think that will matter to many men (not all, some do care). They see it and hate it for their sister, or their mother, or their wife, or their daughter, but then turn around and do it to another women.

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190. I look at the example of my mother: In the early 1970s when she was 30 years old, and a divorced woman with a young child, she couldn’t get a credit card because she wasn’t married. As such, once when our car broke down stranded us, she went to rent a car and couldn’t, because she didn’t have a credit card to use and they wouldn’t take a cash payment. We walked home for miles that evening, and she had to take the bus to work from then on until she could borrow a car. She wanted to buy a house when prices were cheap ($30,000 for a house) and she had a decent job, but nobody would give a single mother a loan. She worked, at times 5 jobs to make it so that she didn’t have to take any alimony – she was too proud, but accepted child support to pay for doctor’s visits, since she didn’t have any insurance paid by her employer.

     She went back to school, became an archaeologist, and for 30 years worked in hot deserts and ran archaeological digs as one of the few women in a field completely dominated by men and could out-survey (for 20-30 miles at at time), out-dig, and out screen the lot of them.

     If a construction worker cat called her, she waved and said “thank you!” She never turned down a compliment, and yet didn’t take a single ounce of c–p from anyone who every treated her poorly because she was a woman. She never once let anyone take her dignity from her, and they tried constantly.

     I watched all of this first hand on a daily basis as a young boy growing up. So, when I read some whiny screed like this, I just cringe. To hear such complaining over what amounts to just generic humanity idiocy, and so mild in comparison to the history of human evil as to barely even be perceptible is just ridiculous to me.

     In my opinion, my mother, who is still alive, but in very poor health, puts to pitiful shame every single young self-identifying feminist female who whines about some guy making an off-color comment, microaggression, or condescending statement or action. Young women in the West have it so good, not only in this world, but even as women. Astronomically better than most human beings, male or female, in the entire history of humanity, and yet you freely give up all your dignity to simpletons who are too callous or stupid to be worthy of it. Nobody can take your dignity away by a dumb comment – only you can give it away. And you allow it. You give your dignity away like you’re giving out candy at Halloween, and then you cry about it afterwards and say someone hurt your feelings.

     Such precious flowers you all are. Feminists talk incessantly about the harnessing “power of being a woman”, and yet, the power they exhibit is so ridiculously evanescent, that the slightest bit of antagonism causes it to disappear like a wisp of smoke. That isn’t power, its the most pathetic kind of impotence there is. You all are more like medieval “damsels in distress” than any generation of women before you, because you literally cannot tolerate the slightest bruise without falling apart.

     I’m not in any way advocating or justifying the bad behavior of one human being to another, but the thing is, you can’t control other people. You can only control yourself. Why on earth a person would thus decide that their dignity and power could be so easily interrupted, stunted, and destroyed by the mediocre and passing words of another is totally beyond me. I just don’t understand this mentality. And, I have precisely zero examples of that growing up. All I grew up around were physically and mentally strong women, and to me, their example is immutable.

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     1. You’re justifying the bad behavior of people (and behaving badly) right now. Shame.

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        1. Exactly where did I do that? I’m advocating emotional self-possession and control, and not letting one’s external inputs dictate to you how to feel about yourself as a person. Read “Man Search For Meaning” by Viktor Frankl. If one internalizes what Frankl is advocating, no power on earth could cause you to be afraid, or rob you of your self-worth.

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           1. And I don’t believe anyone said anything about losing one’s sense of self. It’s the sense of physical safety and perceived worth to society that are the issues.
              And oh my good lord! You’re suggesting people apply the philosophy to cat calling/inappropriate entitlement behavior that a man applied to stay emotionally alive in Auschwitz??? What a hellacious comparison! He was talking about what to do in situations of imprisonment and extreme loss of control. This situation is about reclaiming control.
              I do realize that you don’t mean to conflate cat calling and Nazi prison camps but you’ve gone very far out on a precarious limb!

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              1. You don’t understand Frankl at all if you think his therapy only applies to people (or is even designed to apply to such) who survived concentration camps. His post-war practice was primarily to normal, regular people in big cities – people with incredibly banal problems. It took the camps for him to realize that having meaning is all there is in life, and those who have meaning can not only survive any type of suffering, but remain whole persons despite it. That applies to a person who suffers the daily indignities of life, to those who survived the camps.

                 So yes, I am saying precisely that totally normal human beings should apply Frankl’s incredibly profound insights into human nature to their daily lives. They would need far fewer therapists if they did and we would hardly have articles like this written on a daily basis as they are now.

     2. To above- you have never experienced this emotion as you are a man. It’s not necessarily dignity that is being taken here, it’s instilling fear.

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        1. Fear comes from a perception of lack of control. A person can’t “instill” fear, it comes from within. If, as a man, someone tries to be aggressive with me, I can be afraid because he’s bigger, strong, or whatever, but I simply am not afraid, precisely because I have control. Not of that person, but of myself. It is a fundamental difference in the way you look at the world. The main thrust of SJWs, feminists, etc, is to attempt to regain that control by controlling their external environment. This is a fool’s errand. One can’t control one’s external environment. Instead, people should be concentrating on controlling themselves. When I’m threatened by someone bigger and more aggressive than me (which happens from time to time for generally the most ridiculous of hubristic reasons on the part of the aggressor), I have to do exactly what the author is lamenting she has to do: de-escalate and try to find a way to get out of the situation at hand. But the last thing I will ever do is let others dictate my emotional state. You can’t tell me that this is somehow a faulty methodology for dealing with a hostile external environment, since it works every time for anyone who employs it.

           My point about my mother was that even as a woman, she employed this very methodology, and it worked for her. She had self-confidence, self-control, and was never intimidated. If she was, she never let it show the other person. But all I read nowadays is about young women who complain at the slightest provocation. To, it’s a mentality that has failure built into it. And for the person who thinks that way, the only method to avoid that failure is to increase the attempts to control the entire society around them until failure isn’t possible anymore, which is of course entirely totalitarian. If there’s something that men don’t understand, is why many women choose to let their sense of self be governed by the words and actions of others. There will always be a–holes in the world who wish to treat people poorly for indefensibly stupid reasons like gender, or race, or whatever. In my experience, men seem to understand this more innately than modern women do. We have no expectation that other men won’t front other men, or challenge other men, try to demean other men, or otherwise act incredibly stupid and aggressive from time to time. And any man who doesn’t want to fight every time this happens has to de-escalate, avoid, and do other things to get out of the situation.

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           1. ” But all I read nowadays is about young women who complain at the slightest provocation.”
              No, it’s that young women these days will not put up with it like women of your mother’s and my generation did. We were told not to complain, not to be aggressive, not to answer back. And this was after Ms. Magazine and Gloria Steinem.
              Young women today go hell for leather after the clods who do this stuff, if they feel physically safe enough to do it. My own daughter is a fighter who will not stay silent in the face of this behavior. She confronts cat callers head on. She also has the ability to defuse a situation if necessary – she, at 5’2″, is a very effective, Seven-Sisters educated, bouncer/bartender. There is nothing precious about her, except to those who love her. You underestimate these young women. Since you have a daughter I would advise you to wise up.

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              1. No, it’s that many young feminists now make absolutely no distinction between an honest mistake, or totally benign interaction, with real misogyny, sexism, or aggression (macro or micro). They frequently have zero ability to curate their inputs. It’s as if they have an “allergy” that is so sensitive it makes no distinctions between real threats and totally benign interactions. And the result is that many men, esp in professional situations, will talk to women as little as possible. You have no idea how many men have told me they avoid talking to women in their workplace, if they can help it. You can’t possibly contend this a positive development. In the workplace, at the very least, it’s terrible for innovation and productivity.

              2. “You have no idea how many men have told me they avoid talking to women in their workplace, if they can help it.”
                 I believe I would – I’ve observed it. It’s generally been men who relied on their privilege for years and now that it’s been challenged have no idea how to behave.
                 I am also sure there are young women who overreact as well, however that’s what happens when the pendulum of history swings in a different direction. Both genders are uncomfortable? Good. Change will be the result. The comfortable never embrace change.

     3. I hear you, but I disagree with your main premise, which appears to be summed up by “you literally cannot tolerate the slightest bruise without falling apart”. How can anyone tell the talkers from the actors? Because there are some real bruises or sometimes death involved, if you’re not wary. It’s just that if we shrug it off all the time, like your mother did, then we are also are perceived as a little bit complicit in endorsing such behavior. As if objectification and threats never lead to action?

        Ask her how much she liked having to put on the persona of being someone who doesn’t take shit. Ask her if her life wouldn’t have been easier and less tense if that wasn’t even an issue for her to have to deal with while raising you. Ask her if during her years of field work, if she weren’t one of the majority having to fend off clear sexual harassment, or one of the one in five who was actually assaulted.

        In fact, why don’t you show her this blog post, and your comment on it, and listen to her answer? Or are you too much of a precious flower to do that?

        http://www.nature.com/news/many-women-scientists-sexually-harassed-during-fieldwork-1.15571

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     4. It’s not about falling apart by just one bruiser but about telling people who haven’t experienced it how much happens that doesn’t physically hurt us and gets minimized so they understand that it often is everywhere and that many women have to constantly worry.
        We’re not falling apart, we’re trying to ignore it, to swallow the little piece but the article says we should let people know so they will better understand is being upset at bigger things that might still seem inkompetent unimportant to them but are a bigger threat to our safety.

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     5. My mother was pretty much in the same situation as yours(except mine had an education before she divorced) and she taught me to be wary. She took no shit, but she also taught me that yes, people did escalate problems and you had to take care of yourself and make sure that no one took advantage. She usually advocated de-escalation and evacuation to deal with aggressive people. So. . .I’m not sure what your example proves except that people(even women) are different. Shocker!

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     6. You are doing EXACTLY what she is complaining about you idiot. Thanks for proving the point!

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     7. Your mother is exactly the women described in this article. This article is not about women falling apart because of a few comments. This article is about staying strong DESPITE all the comments, looks, touching, threats and such. It’s about being strong, ignoring it, laughing it away, exactly like your mother did.

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     8. I am your mother’s age. I have dealt with cat callers in the same way – “Do you want to fuck?” “No thank you.” Now ask your mother how she felt about every one of those interactions. She didn’t deserve them, she didn’t need them. She was concerned about you and made sure you were safe, no matter what, even if that mean she had to absorb crap on a daily basis.

        “Microaggressions” my elderly wrinkled ass. These interactions are about power – she didn’t feel complimented. She was doing precisely what the author of this article is talking about – minimizing in order to keep control of the situation and to protect you and herself. Dignity be damned. She was deescalating with every tool she had, mainly words and a pretense of compliant femininity. These are macroagressions – implicit in them is a threat to physically attack if the response isn’t positive.

        Read your response to her. She loves you, I'[m sure, but will be ashamed of you. You failed to learn the primary lesson from her experience. All people deserve respect.

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        1. That’s absurd, and if you think I came away from watching my mother’s life thinking people don’t deserve respect then I don’t know what to say to you. Of course human beings deserve respect. It is because of watching my mother’s life that, just for starters, the women in my life (my wife, a physician, and my daughter, an aspiring writer) get my full support and encouragement in all the things they want to do in life. My point was, I thought fairly obvious, which is that you can never control your external environment to the point where you will receive no negative input. Men certainly don’t expect to live this way, which is probably why they don’t see it when women have to. It’s not that men have no negative inputs from people – they have them all the time. They just don’t have any expectation that life should be otherwise. I, as a man, am constantly scanning my environment for threats. I scan the reflection of my driver’s side window every time I approach my car from having done an errand to make sure I’m not about to get mugged. I watch my shadow cast by street lamps at night to make sure i’m not being approached from behind. I do this incessantly, because I live in a big city, and I know that while generally safe, sometimes people are a–holes and want to start some ish. This isn’t fear, it’s prudence. I absolutely refuse to be anyone’s victim. It simply isn’t going to happen.

           When you go through life and create a space for yourself in a sea of selfish ambition, hubris and negativity, rather than wait for someone to do it for you, you don’t really have too much time to worry so much about other people’s bad attitudes. My mother certainly didn’t.

           Nobody deserves to be treated badly. No man, no woman, no child. But nobody can wholly prevent it either.

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           1. Your mother didn’t deserve to be treated badly and neither do other women.Your point got lost when you attacked someone commenting about their experience, one that many of us share. Don’t blame the “victim” whether it’s her or you. You may refuse to be a victim but that doesn’t mean you’re immune. You may state “it simply isn’t going to happen” but no one has that kind of control.
              I do get your point but you expressed it badly. Just because men also have this experience doesn’t mitigate it for women. It means that there’s something wrong with our society that permits these kind of behaviors on the part of both men and women. No one should have to put up with this. The fact that your mother handled it well does not mean that everyone else should shut up and do as she did.
              We should ALL expect to live this way! When we do we will begin to create an atmosphere that doesn’t permit this crap.
              (Show your physician wife and writer-to-be daughter what you’ve written and see what they say.)

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              1. “It means that there’s something wrong with our society that permits these kind of behaviors on the part of both men and women. No one should have to put up with this”

                 You’re right, no one should. But it’s a world filled with human beings. There is never a day that humanity won’t act badly. It isn’t our “society” like there’s something externally wrong with our culture. It isn’t because of a lack of education, or laws, or awareness. It’s just human nature. EVERY society is like this, because of humanity itself.

                 You think what I said was put badly because you don’t really understand what I’m saying. I’m not even remotely saying “shut up”, I’m saying “don’t let others materially affect your sense of self-worth”. If the concrete exec who commented down below can do it, so can any other woman. I’m Jewish and I’ve been called all sorts of anti-Semitic slurs in my life. I don’t dwell on it, and frankly, can hardly remember most of them because I don’t consider someone else anti-Semitic attitudes my problem. Even when a few of those people are elderly members of my wife’s family who went back to Germany in WWII to fight as Volksdeutsche. If some anti-Semite wants to do something about it, however, then it isn’t me that is going to have a problem, it’s them. And afterwards, I’ll walk away and forget about it like I have always done, because I have zero room in my life to allow others to dictate to me my own sense of self-worth. Their insanity says nothing about me, it only says stuff about them. And yes, I have EXACTLY that kind of control. The only control I have in this world is over myself. The one type of control I don’t have at all is over other people. You can call them out, but you can’t change them.

                 And, my wife and daughter know exactly how I feel about this, we talk about it frequently. I make sure my daughter knows never to be a victim of anyone, to always speak up for herself, and to never need approval from friends to feel good about herself. And she’s a real leader in her school because of it. My wife doesn’t understand modern feminists either, so cowed by the slightest of untoward comments. And she’s put up with more c–p by family, friends, and colleauges than should ever be required. If there’s anyone that tells her she probably needs to punch a few people in the face, it’s me.

                 You don’t seem to understand that YOU gove power to those who treat you badly when you allow them to dictate how you feel about yourself. Nobody can take real power from you, the power of self-control, unless you let them.

              2. And you don’t understand what I’m saying –
                 not “sense of self-worth.” Sense of physical safety.

                 Yes, I do know what you’re saying. Yes, people are people and there will always be jerks (and worse) in the world. It’s also true that the “special snowflake” syndrome has been a pop culture subject for over a decade now. What I’m saying is that the pendulum of history always swings too far before it rights itself. In order to get to where we need to be, i.e. mutual respect, there will be those who cry wolf too loudly and often. I do not believe that’s what this author is doing. Harassment is a very real problem to these women. The issue is that we need to confront this behavior in such a way that it becomes generally unacceptable (and hopefully unthinkable for the properly socialized.) Once that happens it will be easier to sort out the truly dangerous from the simply clueless.

                 Good for your daughter! She sounds exactly like my daughter.

              3. 🙂

     9. Thank you. As a woman, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t know; maybe I’ve somehow avoided the harassment that seems to so deeply affect many other women. I’ve endured my share of come-ons and inappropriate comments, yet I’m not deeply scarred. I don’t feel icky or dirty for having brushed off unwanted advances, and it bothers me that the writer assumes that all women feel this way. It’s not my place to judge the feelings of others, but I just truly don’t understand how even minor incidents can have such profound effects on people. Yes, there are real threats, and we have to be aware of those, but every man who pays you a compliment does not have ill intentions. There are people who are sexist and inappropriate, but that’s their problem, not yours.

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        1. Thank you! I feel the same way and rarely see other women that do, and feel like i better not say it or i will be attacked for not agreeing, for being “against” my own gender.

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        2. I am going to tell you a brief story, I will start with this just because it didn’t happen to you or your circle of friends doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Just because the severity is different doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. When other women talk to you about this, open your ears and listen. They aren’t just saying it for attention.

           Anyways,

           I grew up with strong female influences and was taught how to take care of myself from a young age (I’m a minority so it honestly comes with the package…no no don’t feel bad I’m just fine). I went to school in San Francisco. I walked every where to and from school to my friends apartments etc. EVERY SINGLE DAY I was hit on and harassed. I shit you not, every. single. FUCKING. day. Ever been 21 and have a guy block your path at night? Ever had to dodge an old man in broad day light in a crowd from grabbing your breasts? Ever have to change your route home because someone circled the block twice to hit on you? Ever had to kiss a girl (your friend) to try and distract the harassment? Ever have someone try to put their hands in your tights at a club (don’t worry, I stopped going to clubs after that incident). See that’s the thing you shrug your shoulders and say it’s not that big of a deal when it really is. These events happened about 7 years ago and yeah they made me feel disgusting. And I’m confident as hell. But let me go on. Have you ever had your boss tell you to bounce up and down (oh that’s right I have big boobs and I dress modestly)? Or corner you in your stockroom? Or have you ever had someone spit on your car door and try to drag you out? Have you ever had a teacher try to see down your shirt? Or have the same teacher put short chairs in his classroom so your breasts rest on the tables?

           I have a TON more examples of things that happened just to ME. Things that happened to me while I was just living my life.

           You can say it if you want but keep the snark to a minimum because for a woman like myself that doesn’t take shit from anyone I can tell you that the threat is real.

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           1. I’m certainly not saying it doesn’t happen, and, as I said, I don’t judge anyone’s feelings. And, no, I have never had my path blocked or breasts grabbed, I have never been harassed by a boss, or cornered by anyone, or any of the other terrible things you mention. Of course, I don’t mean to minimize those experiences. I guess, since I have never experienced those things, I have a different perspective, but I do struggle to understand women who are more or less offended by every perceived inappropriate comment or unwanted advance. I can certainly understand why someone who has been assaulted or repeatedly harassed would feel that way, but, again, the writer is suggesting that ALL women feel this way, and that’s just not true.

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              1. I want to live where you live. Not one of my female friends hasn’t experienced this behavior. It started to happen to my daughter when she was 8. We live in what is by the rest of the USA considered a peaceful and safe part of the nation. I and my daughter are Valkyries by temperament yet it still happened.

              2. I live in Baltimore.

              3. And I live 75 miles north of you.

        3. Having dealt with more come-ons, unwelcomed advances, and physical altercations of varying degrees than I care to remember, I can say I’m not necessarily “emotionally scarred” – but I am tired of it. So tired.

           I’m tired of having to consider whether being nice to some new guy (like someone my husband works with, or a business contact, or client) is going to be misconstrued as “flirting” and once again, “that” situation will need to be defused.

           I’m tired of having to consider who else is getting off at my stop and whether they just happen to be walking the same way as me, or whether they’re following me.

           I’m tired of having to work out whether men giving compliments are simply being genuine, or whether they’re fishing for something more.

           And why? Because we KNOW not all men have ill -intentions. We know not all men are sleazy pervs. But enough are to make you wary. And because enough men that we shouldn’t have had to worry about have crossed those boundaries and destroyed our trust.

           That doesn’t mean we hate all men or fear all men. But it does mean we are constantly evaluating our interactions with men – even those we feel relatively safe with – because we can’t afford not to.

           Regardless of whether we’re confident, timid, outspoken, shy, confrontational, acquiescent… we don’t invite this shit and shouldn’t have to put up with it in the first place.

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     10. As a woman, a young (early 30s) mother of five, college graduate, working and raising daughters, I respect your observation. I think what you are pointing out here is NOT that women just shouldn’t care that these things happen or shouldn’t stand up for ourselves, but that, as your mom did, we have to stand up for ourselves and also appreciate the relative culture of respect around us. Women are not treated as second class citizens in this country. Yes, we’re sometimes we’re treated unfairly. Often we’re disrespected. But not always and not entirely. It seems like so many women are blown away by inappropriate comments and rude remarks. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss the fact and stand up for ourselves. But it does mean that we need to look at it in perspective. We have to demand the respect we deserve for ourselves and our daughters. We do not have to tolerate inappropriate touching or comments. But we have to look at it with the right lens and not let these things control our lives.

         But I don’t think your perspective and that of the author here are incompatible. I don’t think she’s saying that we must all be downtrodden all the time. And you’re not saying that we must ignore and tolerate rudeness or unwelcome advances. You both point out that it’s a common occurrence that should not be a fact of life.

         I am reminded of the college students in the news recently who were complaining that the terrorist attacks in Paris took some of the spotlight off the “terrorism” on their campus. Totally inappropriate. To call their situation unfair is true and right; to call it terrorism and compare it to Paris is way out of line.

         The plight of women in this country is similar. To call the touching and rude comments we receive unfair and stand up for ourselves is true and right; to act light we are abused, second-class citizens is way off base. So yes, as this article suggests, we have to right the wrongs. But as you point out, we certainly can’t walk about believing we are victims all the time. As your mom did, we have to be grateful for what’s right, correct what’s wrong, and make that our norm.

         We’ve demanded to be treated as equal to men for so long that some women have shoved away any chivalry or manners — opening doors, etc. — so that men sometimes just don’t know how to act. We are, in general, physically smaller than men, hence the reason we are sometimes inclined to fear just because of physical intimidation. Perhaps the balance might be manners — from men to hold their rude comments, keep their hands to themselves, and maybe even reinstitute the common courtesies of door holding and general respect — and for women to be receptive to general polite behavior without feeling offended or obligated. It’s a tiny step, but maybe a step in the right direction.

         All people deserve respect. All people should stand up for themselves. That’s not limited to a race, gender, class, etc. But we’re going all different directions to achieve that, and frankly, we’ve confused the heck out of society in the process.

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         1. Exactly.

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         2. 🙂

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         3. Yes, society is confused. As it always has been and probably always will be since society is always a few steps behind progress. Anger is not inappropriate in this situation. Not anger at individuals but anger at a society that tolerates this behavior. Women are not second-class citizens but neither are they afforded equal rights or equal respect. Women of color are doubly oppressed. Historically general respect and chivalry was granted to white women of higher economic standing. It was enforced by the men in those women’s lives. The women were seen as the possessions of their male relations. Women of color and/or in poverty were fair game.
            We are slowly coming out of that time. It hasn’t been very long at all that our society has at least paid lip service to equality. Despite my responses I’m very optimistic that this will happen eventually. That’s why I insist on this “battle” against what is more than simple bad manners. I can give anyone grace for bad manners and have. What I am talking about is evil behavior based on a desire to humiliate and demonstrate power over another person. It’s gotta go.

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     11. Why don’t you ask your mother what she thinks of this article and your comment on it? You might be surprised by her response.

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     12. I agree it’s not positive to walk around like victims all of the time, but we do need to realize that women are 99% more likely to experience sexual assault than men. I’ve had an aunt that was raped/killed left in the woods. The majority of my girlfriends have been sexually assaulted as children. This is a REAL problem. I think that the article above is trying to state that we need to stop belittling and ignoring the problem. I walk to my car in the evening with my keys in between my fingers with a may I dare say it “healthy” sense of fear. To the point where I could defend myself if needed. I live in a state where 20% of women reported being sexually assaulted in their lives. That is ONE IN FIVE. That statistic is staggering. Getting cat-called is seriously scary. Especially when it’s 5 guys and you’re walking down the street by yourself. I do think that we are used to it, and your response proves that fact. The change has to start with us, because we’re the people it affects. Check this out:
         https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse?language=en

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     13. Senor H,
         I think you’re missing the point of this entire article… It’s about creating awareness. The only reason the woman in the west have it better than the rest is because of the growing awareness that has happened around women’s rights and refinement process in understanding all the layers of abuse that have actually been happening. When I worked in Africa, I remember seeing large signs and billboards with the image of a man about to hit a woman with a circle and a line crossed through it… I thought it was ridiculous, but for them it meant something and was something for the men to think about because the relationship between men and women is still quite primitive… In about 100 years from now all the layers of abuse in this article may look very primitive… So its important for strong, assertive women to keep speaking up, so that we can continue to refine our social standards between men and women and evolve!

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         1. I’ve been all over Africa and seen those same signs. And like you I thought “WTF, this is ridiculous that there has to be an ad campaign for this”. But 10 minutes in Africa and you see why there needs to be an ad campaign because overt abuse and denigration of women is so widespread and culturally acceptable. My point is that the US isn’t Africa (or the ME), and while I’m all for making sure people understand it’s not OK to treat women that way, I think there is a very large subset of feminists in America right now that equate something as potentially benign as, for example, an “unwanted advance” with the kind of c–p that happens in Africa (as a point of comparison). And they do it with as much outrage as if a man had raped them in broad daylight. It’s baffling to me, and that language is getting more and more hyperbolic as time goes on, to the point that some men would just rather not speak to women if they didn’t have to, esp. in a professional environment. Many of them are afraid of being fired.

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            1. OK – you’re talking about a minority of women who behave badly (bad manners) when I and I daresay the rest of the women here are talking about threatened and actual violence. Who’s the precious flower now?

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191. I liked your article and agree that most guys are simply unaware of constant vulnerability and minor harassment that women are experiencing.

     There are two points that I would like to emphasize though:

     1) guys also experience harassment from those stronger, more aggressive, or having more social power. With the notable exception of breast staring and butt grabbing of course (but there are other male-to-male forms of sexual abuse).

     2) some women get less or no harassment at all – either because they hold significant social power themselves or just do not let those incidents slide.

     Overall my conclusion is that such harassment is not targeted at women specifically. Rather it’s targeted at physically or psychologically weaker individuals. It is important to correctly define the problem if we’re set to solve it.

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     1. I agree, to a degree. Survival of the fittest. Except, that women are then socially docked for being aggressive, for being strong, or for attempting to take an equal amount of power when they have the opportunity.

        I can’t ever be confrontational with my boss like my male coworkers can or I am told I’m too aggressive. I’ve learned that the only way to get my voice heard is to pass it through a male worker. If I disagree with my boss about how to do my job, I must smile demure and seek ways to covertly manipulate the situation so that I can do my job effectively. Men can just call a boss out, and it’s seen as Confident and assertive.

        I’d be curious to know the percentage of time a man feels threatened by someone stronger than they are, or the fear of possible assault or danger to their well-being. The men I’ve known only experience that type of fear infrequently. They can go to the grocery store at night in a nice town and not worry, whereas if I go to a nice grocery store at night I’m still petrified of the dark walk to my car every single time.

        My boss wants me to work late, but I’m thinking of the poorly lit parking lot and who will seize an opportunity when they see a small woman walking to her car.

        I can’t bulk up to be more intimidating or I’m called a butch dyke and harrassed. I can’t assume an air of confidence or I’m drawing a target on my back for the young male that has too much animosity toward women. I know I stand no chance in over powering an attacker. And every single male in the world sees me as an easily over powered, weaker human that they *could* dominate if they wanted.

        I don’t know… I always minimize, acquiesce, or manipulate situations to avoid direct confrontation. which was hard for me to learn because by nature I’m not that person.

        Reply

        1. So, you really would like to know?… OK, then ill tell you…
           EVERY SINGLE TIME we meet a bigger, or more physiclly fit guy. Every other man we meet, we size up and either dismiss as a threat or label as dangerous. Every single guy we meet we veiw as a threat to either ourselves, women we love, or to our relationships.

           Speaking out against another man can (and does) very quickly escolate into violence. As young boys we learn to identify possible threats through, our “friends” who kicked our asses over a small dissagreement, school yard bullies who kicked our asses on a regular basis just because they could, that good looking well-to-do asshole who we stood up to because he was telling everyone he slept with you… that we never told you about and explained the bruises away as a sports injury or something simular.

           The point in this article is a very valid one, but lets not forget that we guys have our own fears and threats of constant violence to contend with.

           You asked if we’re afraid of going to the store at night? the answer is “Yes”… but *our* social expectation is to fear nothing… and so we push our fears down and just do it.

           Men dont cry ( because it shows your enemies weakness, who’s the enemy? every other man )
           Men dont show fear (see above)
           Men posture in confrontation ( to show your not weak, and hopefully avoid the fight)
           Men are dominant ( because to not be is to be abused, or victomized)

           we have our own little world or expectations, fears, and violence to contend with.. for women it’s useually of a sexual nature, for guys it’s just pure domination and voilence.

           Hope that answers your question.

           Reply

           1. Well said. My husband is a small person (in stature- HUGE in awareness) so I can tell when he is “posturing” with another man. Sometimes I even tease him about it after the fact. Again, to diffuse a difficult situation. But it is a sad fact of life. People (both women and men) are animals so we have to do what we have to do to avoid injury. Period.

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        2. For the question of what percentage of time a man feels threatened – it depends. If a guy is well built and self-confident, then it’s rarely. If he’s skinny and nerdy type however, then it can be even worse than what was described in the article for women. As I fit with the latter category, my personal experience during school years was every f***ing day. Now it’s maybe once or twice per month.

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        3. Your story is sad, You have given all or most of your power away and that is unfortunate. I am a small women I stand 5’1″ and I do not let anyone treat me in this fashion. I am not saying that I have never experienced harassment, I am not afraid to speak up, because I believe it is my due to protect myself. Yes, speaking up protects me, because them someone else is aware of my situation and what is going on. I do not play into games and harassment is a game for some people; yes I believe by bringing harassment to light that you are protecting your self. You have equal rights in your work place and if you have an HR department you need to let them aware of your situation. It is your duty to protect yourself!

           Reply

     2. Horse patoot. “Survival of the fittest” isn’t even a thing, unless you define fittest as the trickiness of DNA to get itself replicated. Which doesn’t include being the best physical specimen on the block.
        I’d like to see your references for your premises. They’re very, very weak.

        Reply

     3. Yes, I agree. Men and women are subject to harassment. However, saying that it’s a question of confidence is victim blaming. No one deserves to be treated like this.

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        1. Equally, no one treated should continue to take it and hope something changes in someone else, or something else..
           If you experience anything like this, IMMEDIATELY call it out (of course context and situation appropriate, no excuse no lack of common sense)

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           1. I agree. The problem is when it’s a question of physical safety.

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     4. I’m pretty confident and am not meek at all. I still get harassed and have been harassed since I was in middle school. I still take precautions and honestly it still makes me pissed off. Just recently a man tried to pull me out of my vehicle while I was waiting at a car wash (he couldn’t get around my car, I couldn’t move the vehicle because of the car waiting in front of me, he got pissed). He did this in broad day light and while I wasn’t scared I was disturbed that anyone would have the gall to try and assault someone in the middle of the afternoon.

        So it’s not about status this happens to everyone. We need to change this culture where it’s acceptable to harass someone and it’s ‘whining or weak’ to say anything about it.

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192. Can we all agree that the sexualization of girls and very young women by older men and our culture happens far too much and is inappropriate, flat out needs to stop (in a modern world where we look down on things like “child brides,” and that sexual overtures to girls by older men (and often much older!) is criminal. We are not just talking gender/sexism here in an adult world but something that is happening to children who likely haven’t the emotional maturity or confidence to put these men in their place as the predators they are (and who likely choose just the children who are the weakest or can be controlled in some manner into silence).

     Yes, boys are also sexually assaulted and raped and even by adult women; but one can’t deny the culture of how girls are so early sexualized and it is considered normal mostly worldwide and a trope in porn and joke material “dirty old man.” I imagine (one could even posit this stems from our sexual evolution but that does not make it acceptable in a socially evolved world where we value girls hopefully as human beings who can contribute something besides bearing lots of children). Does anyone think girls who have been sexually violated (especially by adult men) are going to be growing up (as a general psychological rule) into confident, tell it like is, blunt and assertive women without some kind of therapy or strong redirection into thinking with strength? They are just the girls who will become women who de-escalate and minimize predatory situations when they are adults or even end up believing their value is as prey.

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193. If you want to see the world from a man’s perspective, I can tell you it doesn’t get much better. Sure, some things are different, but in its core, men suffer the same fate as women. Men equally are not allowed to talk about certain things, they are equally not allowed to react to certain things, and they are equally forced to de-escalate or just simply swallow it.

     You say than men get angry if women turn them down, they do. For once because they don’t get what they want, and for second because of shame. If a man fails to ‘conquer’ a women – whatever that means – they are laughed at. They are called a looser, and all you are allowed to do is to laugh it off, to swallow it.

     I am not sure if you know that, but men have a lot of emotions, too. Some are stronger than those women feel, mostly anger, hate and aggression. It is not that we choose that, evolution decided that we should feel those more, so we do. And we are not allowed to act on them. Society forbids to act out of anger, or the frustration following it, because you are not allowed to be angry. Men are also not allowed to cry or feel desperate. If they feel any of that, no one is coming to give them a hug and to tell them that it is ok, all they hear is “Harden the fuck up, looser!”. We are forced to learn to ignore those emotions. But it is a fundamental truth, that you cannot ignore emotions, so we swallow it.

     Men have the urge to move, to act, to run around, to be audible and to do things, and all we are told is to sit down and to be quiet. People usually don’t ask why men get lower grades at school all over the world, and if they do, the answer is usually that they are misguided and need treatment or medication. The truth however is different: they are so busy focusing on not doing what their heart tells them, that they forget to do the things they should. They are too busy changing themselves so they meet the world’s standard for men.

     And speaking about harassment: it happens to men, too, much more often then you might think. But as a man you are forced to take it as a compliment. Try to tell someone that a woman sexually abused you, and people laugh at you and call you a looser, even the police. And if a woman says you abused her, you loose no matter the circumstances. Men are prejudged as the harasser, giving women free reign in that matter. If you physically defend against a women, you attacked her. If you slept with a woman in mutual agreement and the next day she decides it wasn’t mutual, you loose. If a woman claims that you harassed her, then the you need to prove your innocence, not vice versa as it should be according to the law. And even if you manages to do that, you are still judged forever as the one who twisted the ‘truth’. If you ask yourself why most child-care jobs are done by women, then this is not because men love children less, it is because it takes just one word from a women and you loose your job. And in worst case: your friends, marriage and home, too.

     The big problem I see with feminism or what was made of it, is that we fight each other, while actually we shouldn’t. Because we have the same problems, just different. How about we face those problems and solve them instead of fighting?

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     1. ” looser “? ???

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194. Reblogged this on hi2lea and commented:
     . This could have been written by me. Instead of being ogled and comments by men at 13, try 10, when I first started developing. Our whole lives, we give in, we don’t argue back, we put up with it, we smile and suppress how we feel so we don’t antagonise men. Anger is scary, anger is real, anger can hurt us. Instead, we try to please so we won’t have anger directed at us. We laugh off sexual jokes, jibes, innuendos, condascension because otherwise we will be labelled uptight, bitches, etc. It is all pervasive in society how we accept this but, having said that, it does not mean all men are like this. It is about the threat, the knowledge that we can be overpowered if we fight back, how we don’t want to put ourselves in danger. I do all of those things t hat she mentioned, holding my scissors or keys between my fingers when walkig to the car at night after work, having the phone out ready etc. This really touched a nerve with me, please read if you want to have an understanding of what has been my reality. It doesn’t mean that it has to be yours but to have an understanding of what so many women have gone through since they were young

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195. Yawn

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     1. Troll ass.

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196. Suri – While I admire your attempt at drawing attention to inequities, it falls down in so many areas because you are making statements that cannot be justified and are simply wild assumptions. Sadly …. dangerously misleading assumptions. Examples below:

     Every statement that starts “We have all learned……” , unless you have surveyed the world, is false.You cannot speak for every woman.

     A statement that starts “Maybe ……… ” is rather pointless because you could just as easily have said “Maybe not ….. ” It serves no purpose in this type of writing.

     A statement that starts “We ………..” is false because it is a wild assumption that all women are the same. They are no more the same than all men.

     “Listen because your reality is not the same …………” is the most accurate statement you make, and supports all my previous points. Because realities are different, everybody’s perceptions (both male and female) are different. What may be a sensitive issue to one person, may not be as sensitive to another, simply because of their life experiences.

     I think you had a great idea behind this post, but it falls down badly on accuracy and presentation. You have used the same flawed logic that some people use in racial slurs i.e. some Englishmen are arrogant = all Englishmen are arrogant. More topically, the same derogatory logic has been expressed about Muslims.

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     1. My apologies Suri. I just realized that this was a re-blog, and my comments should have been addressed to Gretchen.

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197. What in the world are all the mothers doing in your society raising these boys to grown men ?

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     1. busy having careers………… 😛 the system now takes care of the kids. teaching them all the values of the system.

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198. I’ve made a reply to this article.

     https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/response-to-the-thing-all-women-do-that-you-dont-know-about/

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     1. good one 🙂

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199. Are you seriously making the statement that men don’t have to withhold emotional responses to things? That we never “de-escalate”? You couldn’t be anymore ignorant or presumptuous. Get over yourselves, and stop inventing things for you to be the victim of.

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     1. Who said any of that?

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200. I thoroughly enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing! I love that the goal is to encourage people to listen. Its unfortunate that the point is missed in some cases but in others I think there has been good awareness made. Bravo! I feel compelled to comment to address a couple things that have come up multiple times in the comments section.

     I absolutely have daily experience with these things. I also don’t feel like a victim. Siimply acknowledging that these things happen doesn’t necessarily mean victimization. Most of the time I don’t fear for my safety. But I imagine I’d feel much differently if I had ever been in a situation that my safety was threatened. Any fear I ever have is because I don’t know what is going to happen next or something just does not feel right. Thankfully, I have never been directly threatened by anyone (outside of my patients). That said, I work on an ambulance, so I regularly see when these situations go badly and that is where my personal fear comes from. It generally doesn’t stop me from doing things. But at the same time, I’m sure “what I want to do” would be significantly altered if I didn’t think about this stuff. At this point I think it’s just engrained that I wouldn’t go to a bar alone for a quick drink because the experience has a high chance of being uncomfortable and I would have no backup.

     Additionally, some have suggested that if I don’t tolerate it then it won’t happen. I disagree. And perhaps this is where my fear for safety comes into play. In regards to issues like catcalling, if I simply don’t respond then I feel safe. If I choose to confront it, that’s when I feel endangered. I live in Calfornia, so those who have suggested carrying a gun….no can do. But I do have a knife in my purse.

     To those that have said speaking up, going to HR, and that there are other jobs so workplace harassment shouldn’t be tolerated. Sometimes those aren’t options. Sometimes you’re too young and haven’t found your voice yet. I am far more aggressive about this stuff now than I was in high school. My younger self would never believe that I would ever have the guts to say some of things that I have said in my current mid-20s. I was severely verbally harassed by one of my ambulance partners on my second day off training. I was extremely uncomfortable and knew I’d be spending 10 hours every week with him in close quarters. I didn’t know anybody and I didn’t want to be known as the girl that claimed sexual harassment as soon as she got hired. Nor did I want to reveal my sexual history and have that go on record as would have to happen in the retelling of the harassment. So I ignored it and was trying to figure out how to get my schedule changed even though I wasn’t allowed to make changes until I was off probation months later. After my second shift with him I met my now-boyfriend who introduced himself and said if I ever had any problems with this guy to let him know and he will make the complaint and keep it confidential. After hearing that ,I knew this guy was a problem and only then did I feel comfortable complaining. I set up a meeting with my supervisor and thankfully he was fired for a different incident before I had to lay everything out.

     At that same job I received unwanted affection and physical touching from the CEO/president of the company. Yeah, I COULD have gone to HR. But HR consisted of 1 person….his wife. I opted to bring up the issue with a supervisor in a “hypothetical” scenario. He was not surprised. He took a LONG time to answer my question of “what would you do if this hypothetical situation happened to you?” He knew exactly what I said and asked me to be very clear if it was hypothetical bc the moment it wasn’t hypothetical he was required by law to investigate and I could receive backlash due to the players involved. He suggested I write him an anonymous note so that he could address it off the record with the CEO. I chose not to because even anonymously it would be clear who I was. After 2 years, 0 write-ups, 0 times late, and 2 sick calls after a patient gave me and my partner a nasty bug….I was fired for very unclear reasons. I could have perused it legally. But at $13.50/hr I didn’t have the means for a lawyer nor did I want to taint my name when looking for a new job in the very small world that is EMS where everybody knows everybody.

     In a different situation I was harassed by my instructor at school. He made comments about my body in front of the whole class. They were in the guise of teaching about medicine but I was the only one subjected to them even though there were 3 other petite women in the class. I never said anything. I didn’t have a strong case. There was no need to be “that girl”. And in EMS you have to have thick skin and I didn’t want whoever I reported to to then think less of me as a provider. But I should have said something. The day I was required to remove my shirt for “medical procedure practice” and this instructor leered at me after I had protested multiple times to begin with, my grade was indirectly threatened, and I loudly requested that he walk away during the procedure. But he stayed and looked at me. And i felt disgusting. I reported that immediately to the program director….who did nothing. So i reported to the Dean. She conducted a very informal “formal” investigation. He was not removed from the classroom but was instead going to be supervised. He wasn’t. I filed a complaint with the department of education since the school was in part federally funded. And after quitting school and having to restart the entire program somewhere else, after a federal investigation that lasted over 1 year , after being denied tuition reimbursement, it came down to he said she said. And since I hadn’t complained earlier establishing a pattern, it’s very difficult to get a sexual harassment finding. And since my female witness (who told me she was very uncomfortable as well) chose not to interview in fear of retaliation …..I was told in an 18 page official document that a reasonable person of my same age/gender/circumstance would have been fine. That instructor was fired a few months later after another female made a sexual harassment complaint.

     Now, how my patients treat me and what they say to me, and what they grab on me is a completely different post. But somehow because I’m performing medical care on these people it becomes more ok. All the worst things that have been said to me have been on duty. But that’s for discussion on a different day.

     I’m shocked that anyone would read this far, but to summarize….I’ve tried to navigate this issue from various angles and it’s difficult. And I think thats what this author is partially speaking to. Have I been victimized? Yes. Do I feel like a victim? No. Do I act like a victim? No. But we do need to share these stories. People that experience these things can gather ideas about how to handle it differently. People can go from being unaware to being aware and maybe next time they will speak up if they witness or experience it. And it was a similar article that I read years ago that I went “wow. That sucks. Glad that doesn’t happen to me” and then I started seeing it. And I read another article and realized that there was more I could do than just ignore it. So, thank you for writing this down and sharing it with the world. I hope we can all take a nugget and keep enjoying life while navigating its complexities.

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201. I’m a guy. I read this. I listened. I heard. I try to do none of these offensive things. But a reminder is always good. Thanks.

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202. THANK YOU!! This is all the stuff I’ve been thinking and never sat down to put it into words.

     I was thinking about the time, I think I was in 2nd grade, so about 7 and I was sitting on the floor with some other kids. I had a skirt on so I was sitting on my knees, when the boy across from me lifted up my skirt. I’m sure I said something like “don’t do that; you’re not allowed to do that”. I felt very violated, because I knew he just saw my underwear. And I have no idea what he said back but I’m sure he acted like it wasn’t that big of deal. I can’t remember if I told the teacher, but I’m feeling like maybe I did, or maybe I told some other girls, but, if I did, no one did much of anything. Maybe she yelled at the boy to not do that, I have no recollection.

     What I DO remember is that later (that day, that week?) I told my Mother. And she was SO MAD! She was going to talk to the teacher; she was going to give that boy a load of her mind. She told me he had absolutely no right to do that and that I did nothing wrong. And then, and this is the first time I remember doing this thing that I’ve learned to do for the rest of my life: I told her it wasn’t a big deal. Don’t worry about it, Mom. I won’t let him do that to me again!

     And since then, just like you’ve said … I’ve minimized. Minimized the “titty twisters” I suffered in middle school (mostly by giving them back to the fat boy who used to give them to me). Minimized the asshole manager at my internship in London who grabbed my ass at an after work happy hour and told me there was nothing I could do about it. It was completely normal. Minimized feeling like I was obligated to give a guy sex if he paid for my meal (not that I ever did, but they sure have made me feel like I should have!) Minimized an acquaintance’s husband blatantly hitting on me and requesting a sexual encounter, even though I barely know him. It makes me feel icky. It makes me feel guilty. And it should Because my mother taught me to be a good girl. Why aren’t other mothers teacher their sons to be good boys? Can you write about that?

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203. Not to belittle what you say because surely it’s true, but for me it has always been a choice. I started Aikido when I was 17 and within 3 months I walked differently, responded differently, and was basically what has been posted on my timeline as
     ‘unfuckwithable’. You want to be a good little girl? You are vulnerable to the wolves. Take responsiblity for your safety, and don’t up up with anything. It is a choice. It is dangerous out there, but who ever said it wasn’t. Having said which, they (predatory men) need to be called out.

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     1. Also, once in a class the professor, who was my mentor, made a remark about a blonde woman student, after she mentioned she loved popcorn… ‘she’ll do anything for popcorn.’ The class laughed. I talked to him privately later. I told him he had my loyalty and I would never speak to anyone else about it, but I wanted to speak to him directly because it was harassment and it was unacceptable. I told him it would be perceived that way. I told him how much I respected him and that was why I wanted to speak with him about it directly. He took it well and to my knowledge that kind of remark stopped, at least in my presence…. experiment, people! It might not be as scary as you think. Be balanced and loving. I have tons more examples but over and out for now.

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204. Excellent and important article! Yes, we are “groomed” with patriarchal precision and from an early age to tolerate high doses of abuse. Slowly, slowly, WE become ashamed. .

     Eleanor Cowan, author of : A History of a Pedophile’s Wife

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205. Well l read the article and its well written, however by all accounts in the article it is suggestive l am a woman as men apparently don’t go through any of this. Nor do the disabled, transgender and gays, homeless and mentally ill. I think we all feel it in reality and yes, blokes check on each other too.

     Reply

     1. The point of the article is to bring light to the horrible things women go through. She at no point states that men, don’t go through sexual harassment nor does she state that the disabled, transgender, gays, homeless and mentally ill, don’t go through it… You’re completely missing the point. She is addressing the culture surrounding misogyny.
        I think you, and a lot of other men, need to wake the hell up to the privilege and rights you already have and stop acting like scared children every time the faintest whisper of a glimmer of what it must be like to be a woman threatens to become even the faintest part of your reality.
        Yes, misandry is also present, and so it needs to be addressed – and I’m definitely not saying that one is worse than the other… Misandrists and misogynists are both groups of human trash.
        But it is a lot easier writing something with which you have personal experience, especially when it comes to something like this. For her to “make assumptions” about what it must be like to live in modern day society as a man, or as a transgender og gay or whatever, seems pointless because who would listen to empty arguments. If you wanted to write a piece on the downside to being a man, then I’d love to read it, and have a discussion about that. But that is not what this particular piece is about, and so why do you feel the need to try and drag these issues down, by bringing up problems of other groups?
        Anyway, I hope i didn’t sound to harsh or anything… I can come across as a little agressive, but when you feel like you have to repeat yourself over and over and over, it gets a little frustrating.

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206. Powerful. True (and how we all wish it weren’t) Thank you. You expressed this so clearly, so well, and kept the heat we feel and hold, and, in your telling phrase, de-escalate, out of it enough, I hope, to get us ALL to listen. To get us women too, to listen to how it all feels rather than try to put it away and ignore it. We need to face it and talk it, with a certain focused clear power, as you have done, to be heard

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207. This article is so well written. Thank you.
     I was experiencing this quite a lot and brought it to the attention of some female colleagues, later in the work bar some male colleagues inappropriately hit on us and the GIRLS teased me about it and some male colleagues said I was an “Ice Queen”. Then (knowing better) I said how would you feel if I made those same (inappropriate) remarks to you? Of course they responded with “I’d love it if you came onto me”. Then I said how would you feel if another male colleague made those remarks to you? And they responded “I’ll smash his teeth out”. I rest my case there.
     It upsets me because , as you say, people don’t even know! I am very laid back and can certainly take a joke, I’m no prude…yet even suggesting de-escalation exists makes me stuck up (in their neanderthalic mindset).
     I hope people do listen and thank you again for stating it so plainly.

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208. Reblogged this on Green Dragon's Cave, Author and Artist and commented:
     And amid the frivolity of the season, there is stronger meat to eat… and to consider.

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209. 1911. .45 ACP.

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210. Yes, I know what you mean. But my reaction is most of the time different. I either spit, stare, shout or call the police. I did call twice. Nothing to laugh about or deescalate.

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211. Actually, guys definitely do understand and this happens to them in different ways. The major difference is we are taught to be tougher and to not bitch about it. You were never taught not to bitch about things like this, so therein lies the problem. We are fully aware it’s an issue, and the guys who aren’t creepy like this fully understand that there are guys out there like this, and they bully and belittle us in their own way. The major difference is we don’t bitch about it online and make it seem like it’s only a problem with women. We accept the fact that some people are ill-natured. We accept the fact that this person may not have grown up with a mother, and, there’s REALLY not much we can do to change their opinions except for tell them, and, from our experience, this doesn’t go over very well because as you stated, these are usually violent people. We understand 100%, so when we say you’re being oversensitive about it, we fucking mean it because we understand, but we MINIMIZE, DE-ESCALATE, WHATEVER, EVERY DAMN DAY just like you and don’t bitch about it because this is the world we live in and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it affect me. So go cry in the corner some more and see where that gets you. Fucking nowhere.

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     1. shame on you

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        1. shaming other people sucks.
           if you want to argue, please refrain the shaming tactics. you don’t like when other people shame you for being who you are. so how about not doing it to others.

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212. I cried in frustration while reading this article. Sometimes, I’m so afraid that nothing will change. People close their eyes and ears to us and what we have to say. I feel this awful, sick feeling of violation on almost a daily basis. Why don’t they understand? Why do I have to ask to be walked to a different class on campus because of one guy? Why, why, why?

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213. Miss Gretchen Kelly seems a tad too DELICATE for equality and female power. Power, ms Kelly, is not about arranging the world so as to never be bothered again by anything despicable or anything that will make you feeel bad. That’s Disneyland.
     Power is about being DESPICABLE-THINGS PROOF. About being man proof. About being rain proof. Cold proof. Drought proof. Whiny-kid proof. Fart proof. Pooh-pooh diaper proof. Dirty hands proof. Empty gas tank proof. Flat tire proof. Dumped-proof. Fired-proof. Bad luck proof. Bad news proof. Death proof. Mourn proof. And flirt proof. Ho boy.

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     1. yet letting life flow through you and move you, also. power is falling down and getting back up a million times. power is learning how to fall, and make it a dance. power maybe is not being everything-proof. but also letting everything go through us and change us move us and not taking any damage.

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214. A lot of people are side tracking from the issue or trying to make it sound less important than other issues or whining about how it doesnt include men. Well, this is about women, and a topic about what women deal with isnt ignoring what guys go through or denying it, its just focused on women.
     I grew up being inappropriately talked to and touched by adult starting as a child, my teen years elderly men would try convince me to get in their cars, i have been harassed, i have dealt with people getting violent or scary when i said no.
     This was a well written piece, and i give a thumbs up to the author.
     I am lucky enough to have a few close male friends who understand this kinda stuff and are active in helping overcome rape culture, but majority of men i have known just dont care.
     This was a good read, and people hating are just not open to seeing people experience things differently and that doesnt make her less valid, and does not mean men dont get harassed.
     The fact that some guys cant handle an article about what women deal with and still need to make it about them is sad.

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215. Reblogged this on bethmess and commented:
     yes. just listen.

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216. I really enjoyed reading this because I feel totally identified with it, and the saddest part is that so many men won’t even want to read it because the topic is just not appealing to them, because they don’t see the problem! so it turns out to be a vicious cycle.

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217. Wow…ALL women? Maggy Thatcher, and Joan of arc, doubtfully quietly acquiesced as the article suggests. That they encountered misogynistic archetypes there is little doubt but I think this article looses some of it’s weight by saying “all”. It discredits those women that didn’t and don’t.

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     1. I know your a woman because you start your sentence with a word of sarcasm. Not that you claimed to not be a woman, but I thought it was a good example of gender based speech patterns. It’s also a good example of woman on woman hostility, which needs to end.

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218. Having worked in retail and hospitality I have experienced a good amount of this is my short 23 years. At 16 years old I worked in a pub restaurant and one of the chefs used to grab me and pick me up, squeezing me in a bear hug and not letting me go, demanding a kiss. He must have been well in to his twenties and I never wanted to say anything because I was a young, lowly pot washer. For a good while I used to think that males got aggressive with me because of me, because I am quite a gobby, standoffish person. I now also work in an environment where men think they know best and when I tell them they are wrong they tend to get upset and occasionally aggressive towards me. I have been groped and fondled by complete strangers in clubs and bars and they always seem in so much shock when you tell them where to go. I grew up in a situation where my mother was married to a horrendously abusive man and, although I have no memories of actually seeing her getting hit or abused in anyway, I now shy away from starting confrontation with my partner even though he has never laid a finger on me. I have tired to explain this to him and he cannot see further than his point that he will not hurt me. He can not know what it is like to be a woman, he and other men will never know, no matter what we say or do and that is the sad truth to it all.

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219. So, I’m a female engineer. In the construction industry. In the concrete industry. And now I hold a top position in a very well-respected firm. A career does not get to be any more male-dominated, testosterone-driven than the one I work in. Do you know how many times I have felt held-back in my professional or personal life because I was female? NEVER. Because I didn’t let them. I’m not excusing any behavior. When men step over the line and are inappropriate (which is very very often), I correct them. I let them know that they are out of bounds. I do it with a respectful and calm demeanor. And then I let it go and get on with my job and life. Just like when my kids talk back to me. Or my mother intrudes too deep in my life. Or my husband ignores me. This is called dealing with human beings. We are imperfect. People can make mistakes.

     I talk with men in my industry about this topic of sexual harassment. They feel like they can’t even have a conversation with a woman without an accusation or fear of being accused of something bad. So their solution? They don’t talk to them openly. And that hurts my career more than anything. Articles like this that bash an ENTIRE GENDER based on actions of a few – they hold me back and limit my career more than any man has ever done.

     I would encourage everybody – men and women – to recognize when they have any negative impact on someone else and try to correct it. To recognize when somebody else has a negative impact on them and to set bounds, correct the situation, walk away. You have choices.

     But most of all – I encourage you to go out and enjoy this beautiful world that is full of so many more opportunities than to point out the shortcomings of another group.

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     1. “They feel like they can’t even have a conversation with a woman without an accusation or fear of being accused of something bad.”

        That’s the problem, isn’t it? These things that are happening aren’t new things, but it took someone finally getting fed up to begin to make people aware. Now some men feel threatened by conversation and some women feel threatened in general. But the thing is, to be able to move past those feelings, we have to converse. Sweeping everything aside is what got us to this point in the first place.

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     2. Khstl – Spoken like a leader. Which is obviously why you are one. Kudos! Lots of modern feminists don’t seem to understand that men end up having a camaradarie with women who have to eat mountains of c–p and still manage to do great work, because men have to do this all the time. They eat piles of c–p from colleagues, bosses, other men and deal with it, for a paycheck, the sake of their families, etc. They don’t want to have to be on the defense with humanity any more than any body else does, but they deal with it, and “soldier on”. I have no doubt you’ve got the respect of a lot of men in your industry, and by all accounts, you deserve it 100%.

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     3. I’m also in engineering, and I’m glad you have never had a career impacting bad experience. I wish I could say the same for myself. The last project I was on seriously had me considering leaving the field, as 44% of female engineers do. I got paired with two (young) guys who, despite my credentials and experience, dismissed me so thoroughly, that they would often ignore me when I spoke to them, causing me to have to repeat myself loudly, sometimes more than three times to get a response, and even accused me of not being present at a meeting I was not only at, but that I spoke to them at. In a few instance, I was even laughed at to my face, or was accused of not understanding a concept that the accuser didn’t actually understand. When they ignored and dismissed me, they ignored and dismissed theories on which our field is based, and the project failed horribly for all of the reasons I told them it would. A lot of it is documented so my back is covered (thank you technology), and to be honest, I can deal with a lot of forms of sexism, but I can’t deal with sexism taken to the point where one is willing to dismiss basic scientific principals. I just can’t. I have absolutely no idea how to deal with someone who insists 2+2=3.

        And I might add, these guys weren’t blatant women hating sexists any more than most racists are sheet wearing cross burners. Their sexism was in the fact that they each perceived the other guy as never wrong even if the theory was laid out before them, and the more qualified woman as inherently wrong, even if the theory was laid out before them.

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        1. looks more like you don’t have the confidence to lead the team…
           i am woman, and when i have confidence, people listen to me. i have lead a male-only team, most of whom were older than i was, on a project once. and they listened. and they made suggestions, some of them very good that we applied to the situation.
           when i am in my field of competence, it does not matter who the team is. the job gets done. and if it happen that the people don’t work good, i tell them to go away and come back when they feel better for working. because we work on great projects. and it is rewarding to accomplish.
           often people who don’t get the respect from co-workers is either because they are doormats, or because they try to be too bossy to hide their lack of confidence. either way, the others feel it. i have seen it so often with teachers in high school…… some could get the respect of the class. while others failed. and this was not related to their gender. but rather to their attitude.

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           1. This has nothing to do with lack of confidence on my part, and everything to do with disrespect on their part. I’ve been in STEM for 20 years, 15 with a focus on engineering, working with men almost exclusively. I’m quite confident that the only thing I did wrong in the situation I detailed above was that I was born female.

              I don’t fault you for exploring alternate theories. For very logical people, one of the most difficult things to come to terms with is the fact that other people might not be so logical, and harbor prejudices and biases, conscious and subconscious, so we look for a way to refute that notion. But at some point, we must accept that things like irrationality, impulsiveness, emotions, and faults in logic, are variables that are inherent to the human system, and find ways to work with them, rather than deny their existence.

              At some point in your career you will likely encounter at least one such individual, who may, in spite of your confidence, treat you poorly in some way, and you may or may not be stuck with them, depending on various factors. If you are stuck with them, the best course of action you can take is to document your interactions with them, and maybe even send a memo if their disrespect of you has resulted in a dangerous situation. At the very least this may absolve you of liability if some catastrophic failure happens.

              If you want to know how the non-technical aspects of the project concluded, when faced with the documentation, they apologized sincerely, it was a learning experience, and they came out of it better engineers, but it was at the expense of my personal well being, for the fact that I am female, and could have endangered lives if this were a different type of project, and that is not acceptable.

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              1. AND you may encounter women who disrespect you in your career. men don’t have the monopoly of disrespect. competitiveness between women can be really disgusting too.

220. Reblogged this on Sacrificial Tomato.

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221. Cool

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222. You’re minimizing legitimate criticism by claiming it minimizes you. When you learn to respond to others’ views rather than deflect, then you can start to have real conversations.

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223. I appreciate this article as a man as it affirms the practice of listening that I think even well-intentioned men struggle with. I like to think that I do my best to foster a safe space for the women in my life (i.e., mother, sister, colleagues, friends) to share their experiences of sexism, but I also know that I can never be free of the ever-present influence of patriarchal culture. I have noticed myself in wanting so badly at times to be a supportive, empathetic person that I expect the women in my life to tell me what’s wrong and get frustrated when they minimize a topic or sidestep a conversation even if it’s clear that something is up. I’m wondering how in moments like these I could approach the situation differently. Should I wait patiently until they decide to speak? Is it appropriate to acknowledge when it seems like there is a problem? At what point in this desire to be supportive and empathetic am I taking away a woman’s agency? These are my musings and I welcome any advice, stories, and further musings. Thanks, Gretchen for the post!

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224. Reblogged this on She She Life and commented:
     As women, we all have stories of being sexualized without warrant. Please listen.

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225. Reblogged this on in transit and commented:
     Read this.

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226. What is frustrating about this article is that men do the exact same thing all the time. I am constantly de-escalating things. I always have minimize perceived slights. It is not a women’s issue. It is the way that any adult has to function in the world. Articles like this make me wonder how well women pay attention to men. Do you honestly believe that we are never offended about things said to us? Do you see men constantly calling out those who have said the wrong thing? I don’t. I try to brush it off, both for my own mental health and because confronting people rarely gets anywhere productive. People are going to say offensive or uncomfortable things to other people all the time because everyone is looking out for themselves and rarely thinks about all the ways someone else might interpret their statements (many of which are contradictory, depending on the person). I think we’d all be much better to let most of these go and assume people had good intentions or simply misspoke.

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     1. Talk is only one of many ways. I once saw a man assault his girlfriend, repeatedly punching her, and as I went to call 911, I realized that this guy’s buddy was leaned up against his pickup truck and did nothing to stop it. Men should start calling out other men; they usually figure any guy can do anything he wants. But it has to be unacceptable.

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227. Reblogged this on Flourish Black Woman and commented:
     A very important read:

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228. I wonder if this writer is willing to speak against the forces in our culture that influence the behaviors of men that make her feel weary of men. Is she a fan of Hollywood’s sex upped movies? Does she buy products to make herself look more attractive in public to the opposite sex? Does she wear low cuts to reveal cleavage, and/or tight jeans and skirts that outline her curves?

     Most of the things she speaks of that make her feel like a victim is born from a culture that drives women to dress in ways that heighten a man’s sexual senses — for men’s sexual senses are initially driven by sight.

     If women want to correct the current cultural norms that create the very things that drive this and many women nuts, and makes them feel like victims or sex objects they can start by dressing down when going out in public.

     I’m amazed at some of the women I see in Christian fellowship. Not talking bout the newly born again, but the ones who have been around awhile, even the wives of spiritual leaders. Some look like hookers. They’re literally asking to be treated in ways Gretchen Kelly says women don’t want to be treated. Many times women bring it on themselves.

     Attacking the culture, and the media promoting ungodly mindsets is the first place to start.

     Finally, if women don’t want to be treated like sex objects or made a victim of men’s stares, cat calls, and come ons they should dress down in public. That will solve most of the problems associated this issue.

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     1. You’re the worst kind of person.

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        1. I think people who deal in absolutes are “the worst”. 7.5 billion people on this planet and you think you found the top dog on some random’s blog

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           1. She said the ‘worst kind.’
              So your comment is incorrect. Thank you.

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           2. haha yr so dumb you couldn’t even read what was said properly.

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              1. that was meant for “Gail Santosh”

        2. Thank you for saying that

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     2. No, they are not “literally asking” to be treated poorly, you’re just a POS who wants to treat people like garbage.

        Personally, I dress for myself, not to arouse men. The whole world does not, in fact, revolve around your boner.

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        1. Who said anything about a man not being able to stop himself? Who said anything about rape? My point is the way women dress has an influence on the way men can be tempted, and do things they may not ordinarily do. We live in a sex crazed society in a nation that produces more porn than any nation on earth, an $18 Billion industry. TV programs, movies, and music are saturated with lewd sexual innuendo. Debauchery is out of control here. With that knowledge in hand if you want to egg it on, and dress with no thought given to how it may tempt a man go ahead — that’s your choice. My point is you’re not helping your situation by doing so. We have a deep cultural problem, and if we want these things to stop the culture needs to change. Until it does forget it.

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           1. instead of asking what women can do to not be sexualized how about not being a child and owning your own demons and admitting that regardless of how anyone is dressed there is no excuse for anyone else to harass them in anyway, be it with catcalls, physical assault, public shaming, private messages, stalking, inappropriate comments at work, etc. its not fucking rocket science, why are so many people so insane?!

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           2. what about those of us that dressed “not to impress” that get raped, what is your reason for that? you seem to still blame the woman. truly it doesn’t matter how we dress, if a man is going to rape a woman, he isnt interested in how she looks, he is sick and wants to humiliate her. i was in an ankle length dark red skirt and a white blouse with a mock turtle neck collar and 5 MONTHS PREGNANT when it happened to me. you need to stop making excuses for why it is ok or how we provoked you and understand that if you are participating, then you are victimizing women. You need help. NO EXCUSES.
              I find men attractive, but i don’t grab their ass or blame them for dressing in shorts, all buff and tan. I appreciate what i see and keep moving on. I don’t feel a need to comment or ogle and i certainly wouldn’t blame him for looking good as a reason to humiliate him OR myself in public. Get a clue, because as i see it, your comments tell me that you are part of the problem. we need a solution

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     3. NO, Pal’s Pen you are all wrong. You need to start at the top again and re-read. Do this again and again until in gets into your mind.

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     4. wow. way to miss the point.

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     5. Absolute garbage. A woman is “asking for it” because of what she puts or does not put on her body? A man , because he’s “visual” can’t stop himself from raping? What absolute trash you speak. I know great men that wouldn’t touch a lady if she was standing naked in front of him. Because they are decent humans with self control!

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        1. Who said anything about a man not being able to stop himself? Who said anything about rape? My point is the way women dress has an influence on the way men can be tempted, and do things they may not ordinarily do. We live in a sex crazed society in a nation that produces more porn than any nation on earth, an $18 Billion industry. TV programs, movies, and music are saturated with lewd sexual innuendo. With that knowledge in hand if you want to egg it on, and dress with no thought given to how i may tempt a man go ahead — that’s your choice. All I was saying you’re not helping the situation by doing so. We have a deep cultural problem, and if we want these things to stop the culture needs to change. Until it does forget it.

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           1. your point is fucking asinine. its very easy to comprehend so dont worry everyone gets your point. but that doesnt change how stupid and misguided it is.

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           2. I think a major problem in this way of thinking is that it assumes that a women’s body, if on display, is always sexual. Men can appear shirtless or in ‘revealing’ outfits but they’re bodies aren’t construed as sexual. Their bodies have value for what they can do or are seen as just machines to move their brains around. Women should be afforded the same freedom. A woman’s body is not just for sex. If you respect women for more than their sex then you should be able to look at female bodies without feeling ‘tempted’ to make lurid comments. A women might wear a more revealing outfit for comfort or functionality or because it simply makes her feel good. But her fashion choices are not an invitation for unsolicited opinions or comments.

              Plus, if you talk to any woman, you’ll find out that women receive these unwanted attentions no matter what they’re wearing. I have a friend who was aggressively catcalled when she was wearing jeans, rain boots, a long rain jacket, and a toque. The problem isn’t the way women dress.The problem is the way people think about women.

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              1. ”unsolicited opinions or comments”

                 ok so if i want compliments in life i have to sollicit them ? like… beg for them ?
                 that’s crap.
                 i enjoy unsollicited comments. they are the truest ones. most heartfelt. etc. it comes from the person really, and not from me asking them to tell me a nice thing… how fake that is !

           3. Pals Pen, you said: “the way women dress has an influence on the way men can be tempted, and do things they may not ordinarily do.” Boiled down, you’re saying that a woman might not have been raped if she hadn’t been wearing a tight dress.

              I pity you if you think your gender are just animals with no control over their actions.

              Not to mention that women get harassed no matter what.

              I once left the house when I had the flu, in oversized flannel pajamas and rainboots, having not showered in 3 days, all the skin red and peeling around my noise, eyes red and watering. I was overweight at the time and may have had a spot of acne mask on my face as well.

              During the 4 block walk to the drugstore, some guy yelled to me, “hey baby, not feeling good? I can make you feel allllll better” whilst grabbing his crotch. Then he called me a bitch for not turning around to take him up on his offer.

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     6. Dear Pal’s Pen, you have missed the point entirely. Cat calls, assault and harrassment of women are nothing to do with attraction, they are to do with power. Power over women. What you are calling for is to have you power over women by enforcing your own standards on the way they dress and behave. A woman can go out in a saggy grey tracksuit with onwashed hair and no makeup and still be harassed. How do I know? It happens to me every day. The crux of the article was LISTEN. Have respect for women and their experiences. Don’t ask them to compensate for the shortcomings of men who think they are above cultivating a bit of consideration and respect for their fellow humans – and don’t sell men short by imagining they aren’t able to do so. Religion has nothing to do with it – people are capable of humanity, morality and kindness, with or without it.

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        1. Power? That word is just classic marxist bs. What is the actual evidence that even slightly indicate that power is the main reason behind the things that women subjectively find offensive? You are not presenting any arguments for this at all. Society usually never reacts to to subjective male problems, and even more rarely label them gender issues. That is the main difference between the sexes in my opinion, we talk about womens problems (or more accurately women talk about womens problems). Although there is one exception. Im from sweden. The main thing that made radical feminism in sweden eventually peak , was a documentary about feminism on public service tv. Pretty much everyone who has ever heard of this documentary remember one sentence spoken by one of the feminists: ”men are animals”. So I guess thats where we draw the line concerning what can be said about men..

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           1. “what is the actual evidence that even slightly indicate that power is the main reason behind the things that women subjectively find offensive?”

              I dunno. Different things can offend different people. You might want to be more specific. Allow me to assist you. Power is hardly a Marxist concept. One does not have to be a Marxist to see that men catcalling, stalking, harassing, and assaulting women are indeed assertions of power. The fact that society views women as sex objects far more than it does men may also reflect power relations. Again, the observation that people don’t all have the same amount of power is not a Marxist innovation.

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              1. Catcalling, to me, seems to arise out of a lack of power. Harassment (not the subjective kind, but obvious, objective harassment) and assault are both crimes.

                 I don’t care nearly so much how we’ve arrived here as I do about where we are. To that, we’re at a place where men’s sexuality is not valued. Our labor is no longer valued. Our ability to provide is highly compromised. It’s the worst of both worlds- we are told that we need to be receptive to the idea of our partners being the breadwinner, but in study after study, women look down on men that make less than them (or, heaven forbid, stay at home). Our education is so low a priority that we have been graduating less men than women from college for 30 years, and it’s now a 20-point gap, and yet the only thing we hear is the need to get more women into STEM. Roughly half of all domestic abuse is committed by women, but 100% of the hate and venom is reserved for men. We are expected to not even defend ourselves, lest we get tagged as ‘abusers’.

                 You say that society viewing women as sex objects may affect power relations- it does. Just not in the direction most people assume it does.

              2. No catcalling is not about power. Besides if we follow the line that a person can choose what they do with their own body then you have no right to tell men they should not (or can not) catcall or stare. Man’s body so nan’s choice. Obviously once it crosses the line to physical then it is not just their own body.

                 I’ve heard plenty of women make sexist remarks or laugh at sexist jokes. So obviously this behaviour is considered acceptable. If not then they should not engage in it. Sorry but i have virtually zero tolerance for hypocrites.

                 I agree that the way a woman dresses has nothing to do with it although if they claim to be religious then they should follow religious guidelines for how they dress. Same for men as well obviously. In christianity the instruction is to dress modestly with that being defined by to not wanting to draw attention to oneself.

              3. “No catcalling is not about power. Besides if we follow the line that a person can choose what they do with their own body then you have no right to tell men they should not (or can not) catcall or stare. Man’s body so nan’s choice.”

                 were you brutally beaten at an early age and now your brain doesn’t function, or were you born retarded? i refuse to believe anyone is actually this stupid. i refuse!!!! what happened to decency and kindness? what happened to respect for others? you can NOT seriously be stupid enough to ACTUALLY believe what you type. i refuse to believe it. no one can truly believe that. the end.

              4. Fee matthew you are really good at replying to several people with ad homs but how about trying something different like a reasoned argument. All i have done is taken an argument used by feminists generally and applied it the other way around. As i said i have a low tolerance for hypocrites.

                 There is a difference between staring and leering. Lets not forget plenty of women make comments and stare as well so one can only conclude they consider that behaviour appropriate.

           2. “What is the actual evidence that even slightly indicate that power is the main reason behind the things that women subjectively find offensive? ”

              Here is a study that lists common incidents of street harassment: http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/sshstudies/
              I think it’s quite obvious that these actions are often intended to make the recipient feel uncomfortable. Finding one’s path blocked, being followed, being grabbed, or seeing a man masturbate is not “subjectively” offensive, but just plain offensive.

              Here is a roundup of global studies–if the harassers’ goal is to get together with the people they harass, they’re doing a terrible job, because all they’re doing is making them feel unsafe. On the other hand, if they’re trying to establish power, they’re doing an excellent job, because they’re making the victims feel unsafe. http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/

              Here are some studies regarding the role of “power” in sexual assault:
              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3210146
              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/910975
              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26141347

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           3. i dress provocatively sometimes for the power trip it gives me. all those heads i turn. all those thoughts i ignite. yet the power to turn them down. the power to create desire and deny it. it’s a trip, too.

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              1. Thank you for the honesty about it… and despite the fact you may do things to get me to act on my desires for the ‘trip’ of turning me down, from your other posts I think we’d get along fine.

                 So what gesture am I allowed to make to show my approval? thumbs up?

              2. actually it’s not even for the trip of turning someone down that i do it. which is a trip of power, but not the principal. the turning people down is what i have to do to assume, but it don’t please me so much. but the real trip is the desire. i try to be reasonnable about it, but i know it is in the nature of women to love feeling desired.
                 but from what i read here it seems not.
                 so i wonder if i am deranged or if so many people are just dishonest with themselves.

        2. Boy, did you miss my overall point altogether. I’m not calling for anything except common sense. All you have to do is look at the American Music Awards, Madonna, Miley Cyrus, Lady GaGa, and what they are influencing millions upon millions throughout America to do. Same with the rap artists, and many others. Throw the Hollywood elites in there as well. That is, be suggestive in your behavior. Put it out there to bring men in for the come on… or visa versa with women. Who are we kidding here? It’s on billboards and all other forms of advertising. It saturates tv programs, movies, music. It’s everywhere you look. It’s a sex crazed society. It’s endemic in the culture. For crying out loud we have five year old children who can’t even spell their name yet having their innocence raped in public schools as teachers have x rated sexual conversations with them. Start addressing those issues. If I were a woman knowing I lived in such a sex crazed society I think the first place I would start in protecting myself from it all is by dressing modestly when in public.

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           1. Once again, note: dressing down does not work! Please read the article again.

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           2. So… just because some women dress sexually in the entertainment industry, that gives men an excuse for being tempted by all women? Media being saturated in sexuality makes it all right for men to intimidate women? Despite that this exact industry is heavily male-dominated in terms of who has the power, who makes the money, who decides the edits, who designs the look? Excuse you.

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              1. It absolutely doesn’t make it alright,.. but the media is encouraging the behavior. We’ve banned cigarette advertising on the grounds it encourages smoking, so why not get rid of sexism in media on the same basis?… Yeah, the behavior is wrong, but before you villainize all men about it, at least recognize it’s a product of something else

           3. pfffft, goodness

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           4. Perhaps you folks should start by looking at PalsPen’s own blog before absolutely misinterpreting what he said here.. I found it very good

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     7. While I agree with you on dressing for that kind of attention, just know that dressing conservatively doesn’t put an end to it. And the author is spot on when she says it makes some women feel shame and fear.

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     8. Maybe we should just make all women wear burqas, because that had been very effective in wiping out violence towards women in the middle east. Until we teach all children to have respect for others we will continue to have adults who blame others for their own poor behavior.

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        1. This reminds me of this exchange from a 2012 article about sexual harassment of women in Egypt:

           “‘If the girls were dressed respectably, no-one would touch them,’ one of them said. ‘It’s the way girls dress that makes guys come on to them. The girls came wanting it – even women in niqab.’
           ‘”One of his friends told me the boys were not to blame [for groping women in a park], and that there was a difference between women who wore loose niqabs and tight ones.

           “A woman who wore a tight niqab was up for it, he added.”
           (full article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19440656

           A niqab covers the entire head, with just a slit for the eyes.)

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           1. In the Middle East women are subjected to abuse by many of the doctrines in their religion. Clothing to this issue is irrelevant there.

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              1. You’re either a masterful troll or a complete idiot. You’ve missed the point completely. It brings me satisfaction to watch the point sail so thoroughly over your head.

        2. It’s not teaching children it is showing them by example… A man who tells his kids to respect women but cat calls women is inspiring his kids to do the same…. we have to respect women and show kids that’s the only way to treat women….

           Reply

           1. Same goes for women. The number of women who are critical of their partners in front of others doesn’t exactly inspire respect. It equally teaches kids they don’t need to respect others. Add to that the places that women can write in to and describe partners as mere males.

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           2. Of course what i said does not in any way justify being disrespectful to others but it is a two way street and people are only human not perfect

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     9. You entirely missed the point of this while piece.

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     10. What the f$#k is wrong with you? You have GOT to be a troll.

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     11. Women are asking for it, really? When, at twelve years old, I was aggressively leered at and hit on by men older than my father? I asked for that? Or when men do the same to my thirteen year old daughter? It’s not what we wear, or the fact that we have makeup on, it’s men who feel the need to exert their power and control over every woman in their vicinity.

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         1. Where’s the line? At what point, during a look, do we cross-over from noticing and admiring to “exerting power”? Not every glance in your direction is a personal attack.

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     12. Yeah, I look like a straight-up whore when I trek down the street to Dunkin Donuts in my sweatshirt, jeans, and winter jacket. I mean I must. Because that’s when I get cat-called. Also when I walk to work in oversized sweaters because fuck tight clothes. Also when I make trip to the convenience store with glasses and no makeup. If you don’t consider that “dressing down”– well, it doesn’t matter. I should be able to walk out of the house in a bikini and not feel disrespected by dickheads like you. You know what would actually solve the issue? If people like you were tied down in the middle of a giant circle jerk.

         Reply

         1. If you equate a cat-call to being pinned down and beat off upon by various men, you are part of the problem

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            1. That wasn’t my intention.

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            2. You don’t know what a “circle jerk” is, Stacey.

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         2. You are right but OH so wrong at the same time. We should all be able to wear what we want but that will never be. There are influences of media, human nature, opinions and moods of each sex, crimes both male and female….. etc…….Not all woman dress for the purpose of sexual attraction, but many do – this is fact and can, although it should not, cause a problem. This all has to be considered: the same as my wearing a $1500 dollar suit, links, and a $5000 Tag Hauer in the south side of Chicago at night. Just because we should be able to do and or wear something, does not make it prudent to do so. As for me yes means yes and no means no – and that includes all actions I partake in – and most men are the same. However not all men are this way and either are all woman. I find this article, and many responses within, very divisive of the sexes – and hence not the best approach to solve an issue that does indeed need much attention. Both men and woman have to be involved equally, at all levels and ages to pursue this issue productively……. with careful consideration not to degrade either sex – while considering what is, what should be, and what is prudent for safety.

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            1. Agreed. Just because an action shouldn’t bring about a particular outcome doesn’t mean it won’t.

               But it does mean something needs to change. Blaming victims of rape, assault, or harassment averts the conversation from the real, long-term problems of a culture that still objectifies women, however subtle it might seem these days (we have, I’ll admit, come a long way, but there’s still progress to make).

               I’m not saying an honest conversation on how to stay safe and protect yourself against sexual harassment/assault isn’t a good idea. I think it’s crucial. But it’s a separate conversation, and not an appropriate one to have in this context. And as I and many other women can attest to, “dressing down” probably isn’t going to protect us most of the time.

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            2. You’re making women 50% responsible for the actions of men? No, men are 100% responsible for their own actions.

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            3. M, the problem with your analogy is you assume that women can remove their $1500 watch, which is not actually “slutty” clothing, but just being female. Reminds me of that Wanda Sykes routine about wanting a detachable vagina so she could leave it at home and not worry about being raped. Wouldn’t help with the catcalling but I’d love one too.

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     13. Perhaps if MEN (and I use the term loosely) had their mind ABOVE their belts instead of below there wouldn’t be articles such as this and there wouldn’t be men such as yourself making excuses for immoral thoughts and behavior. Your comment “women are just asking for it” is inappropriate, insensitive, childish, and immature. Grow up and keep your weenie and your weenie thoughts under control.

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         1. Look, as I said above if a woman goes around flaunting it, it’s just common sense the chances of tempting men increases. We live in a nation where debauchery is out of control. Porn is an $18 Billion a year industry here. It’s a sex crazed society. It’s all over TV. movies, music, everywhere from the Miley Cyrus twerks to Madonna’s sex up staged shows. It’s endemic in the culture. So, until we have these things under control it seems to me a good place to start for a woman to protect herself from these kinds of hits and come ons by men would be by dressing modestly in public along with being careful where they go, and the kind of people they hang out with.

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            1. But, REGARDLESS of if sex is shown like crazy in the media — I agree, it is. But IT STILL DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS A WOMAN’S FAULT THAT SHE IS ASSAULTED. Women in VERY CONSERVATIVE communities and religions are assaulted and they’re completely covered up. Women were still being assaulted even before tvs and movies came about so it is not the media’s fault NOR is it a woman’s fault. And I cannot believe that the first statement you make is against a woman. Instead of criticizing and telling a woman how she “should” be, you fail to listen and empathize with her and fail to love her in the way Christ would. Quit judging and start really listening to Christ’s words.

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               1. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

                  It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

                  My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

            2. you’re flaunting your overwhelmingly immense ignorance, i can only assume you do the same on other forums and comments sections, yet no one has shot you in the head or sent you off to a local dump. thats because that would be insane. just like justifying sexual aggression (not rape, not physical assault, just basic unwanted cat calling) by putting it on the victim to “dress down” is insane.

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               1. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

                  It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

                  My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

     14. You are the problem. Instead of teaching women to ‘behave appropriately’ we should teach men self- control. I hope that you never have daughters\

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         1. So a woman can sit on a guys lap and cuddle him but it is his fault that he gets the wrong message??? What!!! Look i know what your trying to say but co sidering orhers have looked at his posts elsewhere and said people here are misunderstanding him then it is reasonable to misunderstand you.

            For the record the woman in the above scenario was not interested in the guy. Y

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            1. No one is saying this doesn’t happen to men. Why don’t you write that article? This one is about women’s experience from a woman’s point of view because it was written by a woman.

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     15. I was assaulted while wearing sweatpants. Your argument is invalid.

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     16. @Pal’s Pen
         How can you say that? If you’re a man, how can you read this and be at all comfortable with yourself? If you’re a woman, how can you not show some sympathy to other women? Maybe you didn’t experience the same things a lot of women experience, but how can you not feel unique in that? I’m a man, and while I haven’t exactly treated a woman in the ways this article talks about, I’ve certainly been angry at my girlfriend and yelled and cursed. I’ve always felt terrible about it. I feel more terrible about my behavior than I often feel about hers when we’re angry at each other. Her yelling and saying hurtful things is certainly painful, but when I do it there’s something just inherently worse about it. It reminds me that I’m a man and that I’m not above what’s typical of men. It’s probably the privilege that gets me. I don’t see how any man can’t feel this. I don’t get why most men refuse to be upfront and honest or doubt their intentions and words.
         The most egregious thing about you is that you probably so firmly believe in what you’re saying that there’s no doubt in your mind that you might be off base. Just by what you’re saying you make a statement that men cannot temper sexual urges and that taking advantage is necessary for them. You deny that women have sexual urges, because it’s impossible for anyone to not infer from what you’re saying that women don’t have “sexual senses” so that they are immune to the things men have trouble with. I’m certain that any reasonable person would see this in your words, and if they have spent any time listening to women they would know that plenty of women have sexual desires, and they handle those internally just the same as men in a lot of ways. The difference is that while a significant number of men will be outwardly disrespectful and inwardly just as plainly crude, most women seem to temper those feelings and thoughts and be respectful. For every man that has been mistreated by a woman or another man, there are probably several women who have experienced the same from both genders countless times.

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         1. @grichl88
            Well said.

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         2. I would say this. If you’re in a relationship with anyone, male or female, and there is a lot of conflict, of screaming and cursing at each other you’re in a very unhealthy relationship. You’re probably in denial of the high toxicity levels that exist. I’ve been in a relationship like that, and the worst thing for both of us was trying to stay in it. It just gets worse and worse until you beat each other down to the point of not knowing who you are anymore. My advice is get out while the getting is good.

            As far as the overriding issue in the article until the culture changes this problem will only get worse. I stand by what I said. I believe the first, best way for a woman to protect herself is by using common sense by dressing modestly, and don’t flaunt it. If you flaunt it, it just increases the chances they’ll tempt a man in the wrong direction.

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            1. Also, I’ve been harassed several times and I dress very conservative and never once was I flaunting myself. There were times that I was shadowing a supervisor and never did I give him any signal to touch me in any way, especially knowing I was married, and yet he still did. The list of stories goes on and on and not once did I ever flaunt myself infront of a man that took advantage of me.

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               1. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

                  It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

                  My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

         3. Maybe they just don’t like the womans privilege where it is always assumed they are sweet and innocent while guys are not. Your thinking there is something inherantly worse when you yell and say hurtful things is because you feel your guilt while you can’t feel other peoples guilt. It is not worse when one gender does it than another. It is equally bad.

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            1. The only people I’ve ever met in my lifetime who assume women are sweet and innocent are men. Maybe we should start there.

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     17. So men are savages who can’t help themselves ? Sounds like they should be killed off then. We are meant to walk around d naked. So if seeing boobs makes a man violent and rude then he was never meant to live on this earth to begin with . I hate that I have to wear layers in 90 degree weather because humans are awful

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     18. @Penpal
         That is a VERY ignorant comment. Yes, some women DO dress in a way that they are asking for that response, and then complain about the times they get that response out of someone creepy or “ugly” yet pride themselves over the times they get that response out of someone attractive. YES, THAT HAPPENS! BUT, you’re so extremely ignorant to think that those are the only girls it happens to? It’s not. It happens to the shy ones. The ones that never want any of that kind of attention regardless of how “hot” the man is. The ones that never bait men with their dress standards.
         in most situations it’s NOT a women’s fault when a man is NOT acting like a human and is instead acting like an animal. You cannot blame women, for the way a man chooses to think.

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         1. No Captain — some women do not “dress for that response”….. Under no circumstance is what someone is wearing an excuse for targeting them for harassment, humiliation or assault. Your post is just as victim-blaming as his. The notion that SOME women somehow “deserve it” is bull — no one “deserves it”, and you can’t classify women as “worthy” or “unworthy” of basic human respect based on what they’re wearing. It is NEVER sought after, and it is NEVER okay.

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            1. I agree that it’s not an excuse to mistreat people, but there are people who do dress for attention. Regardless of gender and sex, there are people who dress to impress, whether it’s to impress themselves or others. This is not everybody which is exactly what Captain was saying. Believing that nobody dresses to feel good about themselves and/or to attract the attention of certain people is incredibly naive. Dressing for very particular reasons is not the same as deserving to be treated like dirt. You’re conflating two wildly different things.
               It’s entirely possible to dress a certain way in order to garner attention, and then have somebody notice and be a decent human being about it. Attraction is not one or the other, it’s very complicated. People handle it differently and go about making their intentions known differently. What sets people apart is whether they respect each other.

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               1. i agree. i do it. and when i get catcalled on a friday night wearing that short dress and heels… i take it as a compliment. and sometimes i just dress for this kind of attention. sometimes my ego just wants that kind of food. so i am happy it still exists. i don’t get it often at all. maybe i live in a ”civilised” place lol i don’t know. but the stuff that so many women speak about here is very far from my reality.

         2. Who said men are savages who can’t help themselves? Who said women deserve it? Who said women are to blame for it? Please stop putting words in my mouth. Because a woman dresses a way that may lure a man in to act in a boorish manner doesn’t excuse the man. All I’m trying to say in the sex crazed society if a woman wants to protect herself from these kinds of things then perhaps the first, best step in that direction is not to go out flaunting it. Dress modestly, and stay away from places inhabited where boorish men hang out. If you go out flaunting it you are needlessly tempting men in the wrong direction. It’s just common sense.

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     19. @ Pal’s Pen Do not blame a woman or how she dresses on a man having lack of self control and acting like a dirt bag!

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     20. Pander to mens lack of control?! You totally missed the point of the post. You must be just winding us up surely. Anyone agreeing with you would be ‘de-escalating’ for sure. Women can dress their own bodies how they want.

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     21. Rapists cause rape, not wardrobe. Men need to learn how irrelevant their boners are to us, as we go from point A to point B in our daily lives. We don’t care if you’re turned on or not, our value is not determined by your boners. The only one who cares about your boner is you. Clothing does not cause rape, rapists cause rape.

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     22. Guys like you : reason why this piece and every other piece like this is written.
         I do pity your girlfriend/wife, if you have one.
         My heart goes out to her. 🙂

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     23. I was catcalled on my way to work this morning. I’m wearing black dress pants, a long sleeved sweater under a black fleece jacket and a plaid scarf. Please tell me how I could be dressing differently to not get attention.

         This issue isn’t about how a woman dresses. It is how a percentage of men feel that it is ok and that it is a complement to whistle, honk or yell random comments at women they know or don’t know. I recently had a conversation with my husband similar to what this article is about. He of course knew about things that happen to women but he was completely in shock when I disclosed how often it happens to me. How I have to shrug it off and be non-confrontational because I have no idea what intentions this guy has and because people like you will blame the victim. Imagine if I confronted the guy who yelled a comment at me this morning and I was assaulted. How demeaning would it be for someone to ask me “well what were you wearing?” As if my choice in clothing made me ask for what happened to me. I am a professional dressed in work clothes and I respect the people around me. I only ask for the same respect in return.

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         1. Actually, I don’t think they all think they’re paying a compliment — not by a long shot. Unfortunately, there are guys out there who think their “masculinity” is dependent on women being “beneath” them, and so they put effort into making women “shrink” — it puffs them up and makes them feel all “big and strong” because they can make a women shrink herself in order to avoid dealing with them. And no, it’s not all men — not by a long shot — but they’re out there. Think about the last time some creep yowled and you and you shifted away from them and changed your posture and stride…. and some idiot with them gave them a high-5 for what they just “achieved”….. that was no attempt at a compliment, that was 100% about making you “shrink” so that he could feel like a “big man”….. and it’s disgusting.

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     24. You’re placing the blame on the WOMAN for the MAN acting inappropriately or even violently. Your ignorance and lack of logic are shocking and disgusting. If your mother or sister was wearing a short skirt and then raped, who would you blame?

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     25. You just made her point for her

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     26. Blatant victim blaming. What a woman wears or how she acts doesn’t provide license for the kind of behavior you’re trying to excuse.

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     27. Why should women dress down because men can’t control themselves? Men aren’t animals. You’re doing men a disservice and insulting them. Some women like to feel attractive. If a man dresses up, does that mean he deserves the wrong kind of attention. An admiring glance is ok, as long as it’s not taken to a sinister level. You need to step out of the 1940s or live by Sharia law maybe. That sounds like it would suit you with your horrible view of women.

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     28. If only men had any power over our own behaviour, huh?
         If only it was possible for us to see a woman, and just… not harass her?
         But no, obviously not. Men are simply beasts acting on primal impulse alone, right? Obviously it’s utterly unthinkable that we might make the insultingly small adjustment of just treating them like actual human beings before sex objects. No, we must police and restrict women’s behaviour and dress, even though doing so has very little actual effect; I suppose if you see someone as a sex object, you’ll see them as a sex object no matter how they’re dressed.

         I can never decide what’s more disturbing with comments like yours. Is it the fact that you argue for women to be forced to stay in the restrictive roles and dress codes that failed to provide any protection for them throughout history, or is the revelation of your utter dismissal of the possibility of male decency? All it would truly take, for women to live lives free of harassment, even if they strutted through the streets naked with “rape me” tattooed across their backs, is for men to see them as full human beings rather than as objects for our own sexual gratification. Maybe your pure and godly mindset dismisses the possibility of that, but believe me when I say that we are capable of it, and you insult and demean all of us when you imply that it is beyond us, and that the burden must remain on women to protect themselves from us.
         Women are safe around me. Not because of how they dress, or how they act; not because we live in a society that promotes godly mindsets, but because I recognise their humanity. That recognition is no burden on me. It is no burden on those men I know who share it. Why should we ask women to shoulder any burden to keep them safe from us when it is none at all for us to simply not be a threat to them?
         It is long past time that we took responsibility for our own behaviour, rather than putting the blame on those we hurt.

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         1. Thank you so much for this. I am a woman and a feminist and I love men. Many of my favorite people in the world are men. I genuinely believe that men have the absolute capacity to control the contents of their pants, and to claim otherwise insults and demeans men as human beings.

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     29. Not that this is going to change your mind: but should I have dressed differently when I was 13 and molested on a public bus? Oh wait, I was in my Catholic school girl outfit. Damn it, what was I thinking wearing my uniform in public? If only I had had a mumu on Muni, that would have solved all my problems. This kind of ignorance has been going on too long, and frankly I am so sick of it. Men shouldn’t take responsibility for their actions, women should just all wear burkas. Go back to the 14th century asshole.

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     30. If what you’re saying is correct why is it that when I wear ripped jeans, an oversized t-shirt and a pair of flip flops, I still feel vulnerable to rape when walking alone to my car?

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     31. So I was asking for it at 7 years old when a man sat across from me in the hot tub, checking me out and masturbating? And my daughter was asking for it when the same thing happened to her and her friend when they were 12? So my 15 year old daughter who wears jeans and a sweatshirt is asking for it when men oggle her on the bus every day? I was asking for it when conservatively dressed and a co-worker pestered me every day to try on clothes he wanted to see on me and even asked me if the curtains match the drapes since I had blond hair. So my daughter at 21 was asking for it when a co-worker kept propositioning her at work and made sexual comments to her to the point she had to complain to her boss and then he cornered her in an alley on her break and threatened her to drop her complaint because he was going through a nasty divorce.How about the time when a male co-worker asked my daughter if he could text her naked pictures of himself. After complaining about that situation the company was going to fire the man but she was more fearful of his retaliation, so she quit and found a new job. My daughter does not dress like a hooker. I could go on and on…… you are way out of line with your response to what this woman has written.

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     32. You may think you’re making some kind of sense here, but you’re really not.

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     33. No! Fuck that. Males need to take responsibility for our own actions. WE AREN”T ANIMALS, we are people and it’s high time we started acting like people.

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     34. The logic that ‘women dressing down will solve most of the problems’ would be like saying we should remove penises to solve this whole crisis, can’t think or act with a appendage you dont have!

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     35. So what about when you hear of women being raped all over the world?? How does that happen? What about the women in countries where they are covered in clothing?? What about women from any century in the past? There has been rape in every country in this world and every century so for you to sit there with your alligations on how women do it to then selves is completely propasterous. I don’t agree with the woman out there that dress like that but that does not mean it’s their fault… women get this happen to them for one of the main reasons like the lady in the article said because most men can overpower a women. Men who do that are messed up perverted and have been treated submisively at some point in their life so they go for the people he or she can subdue the easiest. How dare you say something like that.

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     36. You are literally the worst.

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     37. Utter nonsense. I had a creep staring at me in the subway — and masturbate behind his newspaper — what was I wearing? Baggy jeans, and oversized bulky sweater with a crew neck, no makeup and my hair pulled back into a ponytail. It does NOT matter what you’re wearing, or if you’ve put on makeup. Your cheap attempt to blame the woman for bothering to look good is utter nonsense and has been disproven over and over again. In fact, I found I was MORE likely to be harassed on the street when I was dressed down and completely covered up, than when I was dressed up and perceived as “out of their league”. Perhaps the perception of the creeps was that dressed down my self-esteem was low enough for them to go after me and have me put up with it.

         Whatever their “thinking” was — your trying to put a man’s bad behavior off on someone else as if they’re not responsible for their own behavior is bullshit. Men are, last I was aware, fully-formed and adult human beings — and as such, they AND ONLY THEY are 100% responsible for their own actions and behavior….. PERIOD.

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     38. Explain sexual assault when I’m dressed in BDU fatigues, the same as everyone else, covered from head to foot, every day. Tell me how I’m asking for it by the way I present myself provocatively to turn you on.

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     39. this comment gets worse as I read it. Stupid, creepy guys will pick on women who dress modestly too – they will pick on little girls in long dresses and no makeup or jeans and backpacks, or bikini clad baby models – it doesn’t make a difference – don’t you get it? It’s a sense of male ownership privilege not the way women dress. If those particular male jerks behaved – then there is no problem.

         NO PROBLEM – if those certain men behave.

         It’s not us – it’s THEM. Please try to understand, women are tired of this. all those women, wearing ugly sweats to go running and still they get raped, why?
         The rapists think they own us.

         The “blame the woman” culture aids and abets them. I don’t wear scanty clothing because, I get too cold. But also because society may use it as a weapon against me. Wouldn’t it be great if the only reasons I dress modestly was because it’s my style and I like to stay warm?

         that would sure would be great!

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     40. So when i was 15 and walking to school in my uniform, a skirt to mid calf and an oversized blazer, i was asking to get whistled at? The fear of walking past a work site for the comments of the adult men was something I deserved?
         This fear is still with me today at 28. Just yesterday I avoided walking down a street because there were people doing roadworks.
         It is a constant asessment of situations.

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     41. I waited with baited breath to hear you say the word “Christian”. Figures.

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     42. OMG. Even if a girl dresses down or doesn’t wear makeup, they get the same treatment. What coconut shell do you live under? I can be wearing baggy hoodies, loose trousers and ugly boots and still get the same treatment as girls who dress suggestively!

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     43. You need to have a hole where that pole you’re so proud of is, boy. Now shut UP and sit DOWN.

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     44. Apparently, he didn’t “Just listen”.

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     45. This is a typical example of blaming the victim. There’s no excuse for treating a person disrespectfully baised on how they look or what they wear, whether it’s a hajab or a sexy dress. When you speak to a woman you should look her in the eye. When you put your hand on a woman it should be at her invitation. When a woman speaks you should listen.

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     46. Oh do shut up… Rambling old fool.

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     47. Pal’s Pen, women should not have to dress down in public to avoid this kind of treatment. Men should have more self control. It doesn’t matter if a woman is dressed like a hooker, or if you see a stranger and find her sexually attractive. You can keep those opinions to yourself.

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     48. I’m sorry but this is not true at all. “Dressing down” as you say would certainly not end most of the issues. I am currently living in Argentina and am by no means a “provocative dresser.” Of course from time to time I wear make up and “dress up” just as a man would, but most of the time I am wearing comfortable street clothing (jeans and shirt/ sweatshirt and often times a jacket) and NEVER does a day go by that I feel at ease walking on the street. I receive comments in Spanish from homeless, middle aged (married) men, street workers and people my age…so often that I just look straight ahead and try to blur them out. EVERY DAY. I hate it because where I come from this was not the norm. Women should NOT have to change their daily habits to receive less attention and nor should men. These comments unfortunately translate into an every day MACHISMO which creates strong inequalities between the sexes. It’s hot here in Argentina now and I would be more comfortable wearing shorts walking around the city. I choose not to because I feel violated when I do. Women should NOT have to live like this.

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     49. While Pal’s Pen may have missed the point a few times, he also hit on (pun intended) a few good points.

         Lets start with the media that ACTIVELY promotes the very behavior that is found to be offensive.. (they make billions a year on this.. Name ONE successful TV show or movie that doesn’t have romance and sex) Secondly, the uselessness of the judicial system in punishing those who do commit sex crimes, and on the other hand coming down hard on any form of discipline for kids, and one step further is the euphemistic and politically correct lingo that goes around.

         A second problem that has been coming up more and more is that being polite is suddenly taken as offensive… Opening a door for a lady is now implying her inability to open it for herself. Now while catcalling I can understand as something that gets tiresome, if someone pays you a compliment, take it as such.. (if someone says Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas or whatever other holiday it may be, reply with “Thanks, you too” and move on)

         Thirdly, most rapes are committed by people the victim knew… So watch your circle of friends, and while the guy on the corner may be intimidating, he may also not be the greatest danger you face.
         I am also a firm believer that the perpetrator of the crime is the one responsible, not the victim. While some people get their morals from a book, there are equally moral (and in many cases more) who don’t.

         Alas, we don’t live in a perfect world.. perhaps (ok, maybe not) I want to walk around with NO clothes on at all? Apart from that not being legal in most places, I know that whatever size my manhood is, I’m going to have to deal with some people looking at me differently. At that point I’m going to have to make a judgement call on how I want to be looked at, but what I don’t get to do is complain that people don’t notice me if I’m NOT naked, or complain that they do when I am.

         Lastly, and on a personal note, How does this affect men.. For myself, the possibility and distinct reality (er, terrifying fear) I could be charged for rape or sexual assault has been a problem for me in my relationships… I cannot express my desire for the person I love.. sure, there’s more to it than that, but it’s a major factor.

         And the most feminist woman will still ask me why her car doesn’t start

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     50. This HAS to be a deliberate troll comment.

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     51. Seriously, go straight to hell. It is not the victim’s responsibility to educate a criminal. I’ve long since decided I would do hard time for any man who tried to attack me. If I get a chance to kill him – at that moment or at any point for the rest of his worthless life, I will, because he is worthless and his death will prevent trauma to people worthy of life. Real men don’t rape; the instinct of any mammalian male is to protect the life-bearers. Rapists are men who can’t control their anger, not their sexuality.

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         1. You can’t seriously believe the culture plays no part in influencing the boorish behavior in our society. Of course, it is ultimately the responsibility of a man to not act in any sort of boorish manner. At the same time if we don’t think the culture is influencing the way people think along these lines, and the way people act at times we’re naive at best

            Why is it excused in movies, on TV, in ads? It’s all over the place, and it exacerbates the problem.

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     52. Women should NOT have to think about what to wear in public because it might put them at risk of being abused, assaulted or raped. This is exactly where misogyny stems for so many people. Do men have to get dressed in the morning and think to themselves: “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t wear these jeans, or this shirt, or wear my hair like this, because it might make someone treat me in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable”. NO. And women shouldn’t have to.

         Women are not asking for it. Women have the right to dress however they want and to feel safe in doing so. Women have the right to go out in public and not feel threatened. Your opinion is saying that we are asking for it by dressing in certain ways or carrying ourselves in certain ways. Your opinion is saying that we shouldn’t feel safe and that we should feel threatened. Your opinion says that men shouldn’t have to control themselves and not harass and assault and rape women. This is called misogyny. This opinion oppresses women. What you are telling women they should do is wrong. Absolutely wrong.

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     53. You make a good point. Men are visually stimulated, that’s just how they are wired, and dressing provocatively is baiting a man’s desire. The Slut Walks so many women participate in to “free” themselves are self defeating – what is the point in arousing desire in strange men and then complain when they stare? Comments and such, of course, are voluntary but a lot of men hit on women who are modestly dressed and its not always about sex, it’s about power.

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     54. You’re damned if you do (dress sexy) and you’re damned if you don’t. You know why? Because everybody is too damn worried about what women wear. Do you think we understand? No, we don’t, in fact, plenty of the time if we dressed sexy it’s because that’s what we thought society wanted us to do (something I would like to make young women on the rise aware of, that society will not thank them for trying to please it).

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     55. This is probably the most reasonable and thoughtful article in a sea of articles on the subject that can at best be described as a mixed bag. That you respond to this one with what seems to be a kneejerk reaction to articles on sexism in general says a lot. Don’t be a jerk.

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         1. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

            It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

            My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

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     56. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

         It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

         My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

         Reply

     57. YEAH! And people should stop buying nice things so other people won’t have the desire to steal them! Oh wait… that’s completely fucking retarded.

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     58. Even if a human feels like walking down the streets naked, this particular human has every right to do so without being guilty of anyone else’s reaction/action. Be it a women, a man, agender etc. No one has any right to do any harm to anyone and blame another person for “triggering” anything.

         I’m not here to discuss anything. I just want to shout a big FUCK YOU to all the men who still haven’t grown control of their bodies or understanding of this issue and are still victimizing women. Fuck you to all of you who see themselves as something greater than the opposite gender and think there are excuses to be made to treat someone badly.

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     59. The point has been missed. Really, girls get cat called before they even know or start dressing that way. You may not think it happens often to women but it does. I got it, my friends got it, literally every girl I know was catcalled when they were in middle school, walking on the street in broad daylight. Wearing just a hoodie with jeans. What is this bull shit about women who “dress in a way that heighten a man’s sexual senses”.

         Are you going to try and twist it into something the little girl did? A girl who’s just walking home from school. Should she wait for her parents to come pick her up because it’s her fault that she wore clothes that fully covered her body and adult men can’t restrain themselves because of their “sexual senses”? There are many things that can be considered a male sexual fantasy, even ordinary things. It should not be the responsibility of women to be watching out for every little fantasy a man might have. If a man has a fetish for feet, should women stop wearing sandals for fear that someone might assault her because he was attracted to her feet? Are women to stop walking dogs because someone might have a perverted fantasy involving animals and women? This is total bullshit.

         I’m not saying that men don’t have tastes and aren’t “tempted” but you can’t pin it on women to stop catcalling by dressing differently. It’s avoiding the problem that comes from the people who perpetrate it.

         It always disappoints me, reading an article like this where I think that people might finally start understanding why women feel uncomfortable about a lot of these things like walking alone at night, men coming on to them, being cat called. If you want to say that women AND men shouldn’t walk home alone at night. How about we talk about the fact that many men feel different about walking home at night than women do? How about we bring up the idea that it doesn’t cross most of our male friends minds that walking home at night would be “scary” because maybe if a man approached us we might not be strong enough to hold them off, or might not run fast enough to get away. It’s not about things that women should or shouldn’t do. Men do these things too, but they obviously don’t feel the same way that women do about it.

         I’m really tired of people putting the blame on women for things like cat calling. It infuriates me the most because it doesn’t happen to women just because they dress a certain way. This is especially proven because it happens to small girls and adults who dress fully covered. You also can’t pin it on a woman’s body type. That is something she can’t change, and won’t change because of something like this.

         That’s enough of a rant.

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     60. So essentially you’re saying men are dogs. And have no control over their actions. Because if they see something they like, they lack all self control. And in thy end, that’s totally okay, because men are just men.
         You
         Need
         To
         Think

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     61. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan has shown us that women are treated like shit regardless of how they dress. Might I add, that in Afghanistan, they decided it wasn’t enough that women completely cover themselves in blue sheets. They decided her voice was too much, and so forbade women to speak in public, and then they decided that even the word “women” could drive men into uncontrollable fits of rape, so they replaced “women” with the word “spring”. Do you see how this goes? When you don’t hold a person responsible for their actions against others, and insist the responsibility lies with those they victimize, it creates an environment of moral decay, where abusers are free to abuse, and we condemn the victims for the crimes committed against them.

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     62. Pal’s Pen, why is it that you assume that male behaviour doesn’t need to be changed but rather that women need to adapt how they walk, act and dress to accommodate such behaviour? Why is it that you believe that men are incapable of behaving like human beings and must instead submit to their animalistic ‘sensual senses’ and eschew all norms and codes of society? Why is it that you don’t consider the fact that male behaviour has been conditioned, reinforced and justified by the hypersexualised and unrealistic portrayal of relations by Hollywood? Why is it that you can’t engage your brain and put yourself in someone else’s shoes?

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     63. One thing men should understand is the impact the difference in size between males and females has on the female’s experience of their behavior. All of these catcalls, leers, etc feel doubly threatening and invasive. It is unwanted, aggressive, inappropriate behavior and the person acting this way is generally larger and stronger. In addition catcalls and leeers are often practiced by men in packs – construction workers, guys hanging out together – so that walking down the street feels like running a horrible gamut. . And for the guys who keep insisting their bad behavior is society’s fault or the woman’s fault – anyone else’s fault but theirs – consider the fact that much of this unwanted behavior happens to young girls. I was was around 11 when I started to experience the catcalls, leers, the guys following me on the street, the petty assaults that actually didn’t feel petty (guys grabbing my boobs or pushing me into doorways to pinch my butt) and all of the other insults and aggressions that became the white noise of my daily life as I grew up and learned to navigate my life. ELEVEN.

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229. Ok Ok sugar tits what a nag ! Must be on your blob

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230. Be kind to those you meet for they are fighting a difficult battle.

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231. As a man, 31yrs, who is and has been totally aware of sexism and discrimination against women—I offer my input regarding this article. First off, I was raised mostly by my mother and have an older sister. My mother was extremely strong-willed and I’m sure she wouldn’t agree with a lot of what this article–no matter how factual it is. This is simply because not only did she NOT just brush off this sort of behavior from men…she enjoyed fighting it off. I’ve seen her very skillfully disarm and embarrass these men in question…A LOT. My sister, on the other hand, who is still just as strong willed as my mother, would surely agree with this article. What I gather (even with my experiences with women) is that personalities are personalities. While its progressive to listen and understand the issues that this world has and try improving them, I’m not naive in knowing ones personality is the real variable. And that is something the is gender less. A bad person is a bad person. I want women to be treated equally as much as women do. However as a man, if I’m walking alone at night, I stand to be harmed by “some PERSON” that is LOOKING to harm someone the exact same way a woman walking alone at night would. You can’t really say men target women in that way without saying men target other men as well(for other reasons).

     As a man, I’ve been cat called by beautiful women that were somewhat forceful, stared at, had my butt grabbed by mystery women, etc. And yes, in those moments, it felt a little uncomfortable but in no way, shape, or has it affected the way I live my life. Hell, I remember a few occasions where a woman approached me at a bar while buying a drink saying “buy me AND my friend a drink!” I could’ve played it cool like the women depicted in the article knowing that any woman that had the balls to do such a thing could cause a scene if I said “no”. But I simply would say”no”. Scene was caused, but how was that supposed to affect me, again? Ive got stories for days. My
     mother taught me to know who I am as person always operate as such.

     A large misconception is that a lot of the male behavior discussed in this article is solely/ at large the behavior of men. Maybe I’m a rare case but I can’t agree with the notion that only women are at the taking end of such poor behavior. Nonetheless, it is great to hear about these issues because good commentary could both cause men/women to be more mindful of when they’re being scumbags AS WELL as give onsite on less stressful/bottled up ways to deal with somebody that is being a scumbag. If equality is the goal, lets pursue it from both angles because a lot of groups, genders, and individuals are programmed to see how other groups could be experiencing similar things.

     P.S. It “might” be rare to see articles like this from male perspective because this sort of thing (I believe) has little effect on us. This behavior may happen women more…but then again…it could be just the same.

     Anthony

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     1. ” I’ve been cat called by beautiful women that were somewhat forceful, stared at, had my butt grabbed by mystery women, etc. And yes, in those moments, it felt a little uncomfortable but in no way, shape, or has it affected the way I live my life. ”
        Ok, let’s switch it around then. What if it was a guy (I’m assuming you’re straight)? What if it was a huge dude, and he followed you around the block hitting on you? You have absolutely no interest in him, you’re just walking to work/the store/wherever. Does it really seem like a great idea to forcefully tell this large and aggressive guy to just shove off? Being hit on by someone who is larger than you when you don’t know if they will respond to rejection violently isn’t something you just shrug off.

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        1. My actions wouldn’t be different…if anything BECAUSE I’m a straight male. To men a lot of men, size isn’t issue. To reiterate, I know who I am as a person and that’s the variable that isn’t interchangeable. The reason this example you’ve proposed does really apply is because it actually supports my standpoint. If men ALSO have to deal with similar issues but the way that this article is written suggests otherwise. Believe me, I can write a very factual article listing the struggles of a man and gear it towards women being blind to them, but what would that solve? Especially when the general idea is that People should just not be scumbags toward each other. When I say that it would literally take me days to give you detail accounts from myself and my peers, I’m not exaggerating. Venting is super healthy and I truly understand it. In writing article like this saying we as men don’t know or listen is an assumption and inaccurate. There could be enough men Experiences of some can’t be concluded as experiences of all…that in itself should provide enough evidence that the playing field “might” be even in “some” aspects of gender issues. Not saying sexism doesn’t exist, but it’s just slightly annoying tug-o-war match that “could” be done if both men and women could just admit faults collectively and make efforts improve them.

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     2. Well said! As a 52 year old woman. Mother of 4 grown children two boys and two girls in there twentys. Where does personal responsibility play in to the world you surround your self. If it truly was as horrid as the current feminist movement is endoctrinated vulnerable sheep to by into this BS , it would lead me to believe you could not go out of your house and simply live and breath without being subjected to being a victim of such behavior 24 hours a day! Really? Sorry, I come and go daily, for 52 years, in society and find this accusation of being subjected to harassment by the opposite sex or any gender, an exception than the rule. Hey, if I go down a dark alley in a high crime area I may run a higher risk of harm than going down the alley of a statistically lower crime area. Just saying… Hmm I think I may just use my common sense and avoid the risk, than chant it’s my right to walk down all alleys!!!
        The sad truth there are people , children, women and men who truly can not escape the horrors of living in a free society without persecution. That’s the real atrocity in the world. Back to the original attributing culprit in a free society ….we all have personalities and some are more offensive than other….exception than the rule.

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        1. It depends on where you live. I live in a big city and seriously dread walking anywhere because I get cat called and stared at. Even in ski pants and a sweater. If you live in a smaller town where everyone knows each other it might happen less often

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           1. Yup! I used to walk to work/school every day in a large city, and got catcalled by at least 10 guys every single day. Even when wearing sweatpants, no makeup, and with my hair thrown up in the bun.

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           2. i live in a 2 million peoples city and i very rarely get cat-called. maybe once in a year, on average.

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        2. This happens to me at work frequently despite the fact that I dress in appropriate clothing and have discussed it with my supervisors. This isn’t simply a matter of walking to your car or choosing to be in a dark alleyway.

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        3. You have your experiences, other women have theirs. Why so much difficulty accepting the testimony of experiences that are not your own?

           I’d be more than happy to share my experiences with you if you would like to hear them.

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           1. what’s difficult to accept is that the author of the article thinks it is fair to write in the name of ALL women… as if we all lived the same experiences.
              yet i know we all live different things, and have different interpretations of the things we live.
              i don’t live in fear. and i am a woman. therefore, not all women live in fear.
              i hope this be taken in consideration. 🙂

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     3. Yes, you may have had women hit on you when you didn’t want it. Absolutely. If it was just a matter of an occasional unwanted come-on I don’t think this conversation would be necessary.

        But does it happen to you almost every single day? Have you ever felt that you were in danger of being physically injured, raped, or murdered as a result of your response? When a woman hits on you in a bar, and you’re not interested, do you ever feel like she might seriously physically harm you? Do you get nervous dealing with strange women’s attention because they can physically overpower you? Have you ever had a woman physically trap you in the corner of the room so that you couldn’t get away?

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        1. Not twice.

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        2. While it may not happen to me every day (and to say it happens to most women EVERYDAY seems like an exaggeration) it and things and other things just like it have happen way more than it should. I could go on for days. And I’m a physically fit, just over 6ft tall straight male. If the argument was simply it’s exhausting to have to ward off malicious/lustful males each day, then I wholeheartedly understand. I also understand that it’s horrible to categorize an entire gender for the faults of a portion of it. A carefully written article would at least make it a point to cite such an obvious fact.

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        3. While it may not happen to me every day (and to say it happens to most women EVERYDAY seems like an exaggeration) it and things and other things just like it have happen way more than it should. I could go on for days. And I’m a physically fit, just over 6ft tall straight male. If the argument was simply it’s exhausting to have to ward off malicious/lustful males each day, then I wholeheartedly understand. I also understand that it’s horrible to categorize an entire gender for the faults of a portion of it. A carefully written article would at least make it a point to cite such an obvious fact.

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        4. I’ve actually felt like a woman might harm me once. For the life of me, I couldn’t understand it. This wasn’t even someone I was closed to or knew, yet her behavior was strange. I could snapped her in two very easily, but she and I both knew that I wouldn’t even come close to that…that was her power.

           On my life, I’d done nothing to her but not call her . When the incident occurred I kept it cool because it was in a public setting. Same situation, but The difference between and the women depicted in this article is that’s what I would NORMALLY do…and gladly. I’ve got more stories but I’ll refrain. Funny thing is that I’m a straight male, over 6ft and frequent the gym regularly. Go figure

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           1. I’m sorry that happened. But it happened once. Once is too many, yes, but we’re not talking about isolated incidents. We’re talking about patterns which literally do last one’s entire life.

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     4. Whoa buddy! You got the wrong idea. I don’t dress sexy, I don’t ware makeup and I ware my hair back to deter from my natural good looks and I still get the wildest advances from all kinds of men just out walking around. Where’s I am content with a strictly platonic friendships and I make that very well known; guys often come into my life wanting to be friends with me then eventually want more from me than I am willing to give and often don’t hear me very well when I say that I am not interested, so I end up cutting them out of my lives; earning myself the reputation of “A shallow bitch”. It’s not so much about clothing; it’s about the mindset of a man who has a false sense of entitlement towards you because he likes what he sees and tries to take advantage of the situation. And I know because it has happened to me more times than I care to admit. And I have seen/heard about so many similar occurrences over the years. Dude, you sound like the sort of person who would rape a woman and bury her in a shallow grave somewhere in the forest.

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     5. I believe ever day men feel the effects in their wallets. When women go straight at your cash bet it feels similar.

        I’ve never heard a man get excited about prison. I don’t think cat meat sandwiches frighten men, think rape frightens all of us.

        Also, Clarence Thomas. I would like to ask him about his rise to power. See if a micro expression of shame passes, while flashing on all the creepy frat boy humiliation rituals that secured his seat. I saw the Anita Hill debacle at a young age. What sticks out, the rabbit trying to explain to wolves her experience. The wolves were never going to cry over the rabbit. The wolves created the world. Initiation by rape & exploitation, cigars and handshakes on the other side.

        Sorry rabbit, were you saying something…

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        1. seriously? You’re equating MONEY with someone’s PERSON? seriously twisted.

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           1. In this society, a man’s worth is largely based on economic prowess. Yes, I think men feel similar when immediately asked what kind of car they drive: sized up, judged, objectified, marked for exploitation.

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           2. I responded to the P.S. In Anthony’s statement, but failed to make that clear.

              I do believe men feel the effects of exploitation, objectification, and a rape permissive culture…
              1. In their wallet
              2. When they think of prison
              3. When they block out what happened that night at the frat house or secret society drag show staring our nation’s power elite.
              &
              4. When women don’t trust them just because they’re men

              Men can be creepy. Men know this. Men are affected. Men don’t like talking about rape and sexual harassment happening to them because it makes them feel like many women feel every day.
              Expendable. Objectified. Other than powerful.

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           3. money is not just a physical thing detached from you. money is work. effort. blood, sweat, tears. hope. dreams. when someone takes that from you, by manipulation or by force, it can be very traumatizing yes. i have seen men on the streets from losing the house they worked for all their life because of a divorce. men starting to drink, ending up completely destroyed, etc. the streets are full of men with really sad stories, lots of these stories involve some abuse by a woman.
              so, yes, it can be as tragic.

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     6. My cousin is a strong-willed woman like your mother. A younger guy came on to her in a bar while she was waiting for her fiance to join their party. She told him no firmly several times. He was persistent, he touched her, and she told him to fuck off.

        He waited for her party in the parking lot with a group of his friends, and they proceeded to severely beat every single one of them. Her friend’s dad was hospitalized for weeks, they were assaulted in front of the police. You know what the police said to her? Maybe she should keep her mouth shut next time.

        So fuck you and your “weak personalities” bullshit.

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        1. I never said anyone had a weak personality. Instead I cited that if someone has a bad personality or is simply just flawed…that person can be man or woman. If someone had it in them to do harm, it simply has no gender. To say men do more harm than women just isnt accurate. It simply an emotionally charged statement. I’m truly sorry that that situation happened to your family, but that doesn’t have much to do with what the article’s case. Studies will tell you that there are more women on this planet than there are men so if you can zero in on the universal issue here, it would help improve it. What you’re speaking of is bad people doing bad things…which furthers my point that gender is an interchangeable variable in the equation. I’ve got a story or person account that could counter yours, but going back and forth in that way helps nobody

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           1. Statistically, men are the overwhelming perpetrators of violence. That’s fact. Women can be violent, some women are psychopaths and sociopaths, and people in general can be pretty awful. I’m sorry that you feel attacked because you were born with a penis, but wishful thinking and brushing it off like “ALL LIVES MATTER” doesn’t change the fact that men are, statistically more likely to hurt, maim, and injure than women.

              I’ve never been struck by a woman, or raped by a woman. I’ve never felt in fear of my life because of woman. No, men did that to me.

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              1. good for you that you have never felt threatened by a woman. my experience is different… i have lived violence by both men and women. the violence from men was easily brushed off and left no scars. the violence from women… i still deal with the trauma. i think it will be with me all my life. never minimize.

        2. So if a guy had told that arsehole to fuck off and gotten beat up in front of the police that wouldn’t have been a problem? No, there’s HEAPS of things that went wrong there.

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        3. yes it’s something to have a big mouth. but many girls were not able to stop one man from beating them up ? i think some girls need some training too. i have woman friends who are able to stop fights between two men in a bar. many girls can immobilize one man if you keep your head straight. ++ basic self-defense, aim at the balls. also biting the pinkie finger really hard can stun someone long enough. + learn to run and hide. i have gotten out of sticky situations by running. often, if your opponent is big and you’re small, chances are you are more agile, and possibly have more endurance for running. it don’t take long, if you know how to feel, to see what are the weak points of the person in front of you.
           but for one man alone to beat you and all your friends. please. learn some basics if you’re going to have a big mouth, have something to back it up with 😉

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           1. hm sorry i re-read your post, i didn’t catch that the guy brought some of his friends.
              wtf crazy place you live ! in the US i guess ? things like that don’t happen much here.

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     7. Well you’ve just proved the point she was making in the article.. That womens experiences are continually minimised, by men oblivious and unconcerned. Your mother “enjoyed fighting them off” Oh really? Just maybe, if she didn’t have to deal with fighting off that constant barrage of ignorance, she might have had more time to spend doing things she actually enjoyed.

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        1. I don’t the issues of women should be trivialized at all. However, it’s tough sometimes to hear people speak of their issues in ways that suggest they’re the only ones that are experiencing them. What happens when you’re out of town and meet someone that grew up in the exact place you did. For a second you might feel a kinship. This person might offer a sense of familiarity, right? So when I say that a lot of men have similar experiences (offering a different perspective, why is it that a woman won’t believe it’s true? Isn’t that what the whole article is about? LISTENING? I could have you ask my mother yourself and have her tell you how empowered she feels and has felt over the years. There’s a lot things that we as people shouldn’t have to deal with…without trivializing single aspects of these dealings I simply see them as one big worldly flaw/issue. Take that however you’d like but this is no MORE or LESS of an issue than things we face everyday as men. My above commentary is geared toward talking about issues as they come to us as people…point fingers and this will be an eternal debate. At the same time, if a man wrote this you’d probably laugh at him…even though it’s HIS truth.

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           1. Oh really. so why are the country’s refuges full of women? How many times in your life have you been on the receiving end of rape or sexual abuse? Wake up. Get really tired of this mindless obtuse attitude.

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              1. because there are no refuges for men. because men are taught to suck up and shut up. because men sometimes react to psychological violence by physical violence (but psychological violence is violence too).

232. I’d say ALL is a fair assessment if we are talking about women’s issues. I was taught as a child not to draw attention to myself as a means of personal protection, so Mother knew it too.

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     1. You shouldn’t have to. And a child should definitely not have to learn that lesson.

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        1. it’s like this for everyone. a wise man once said; to live free, live hiding.

           attract attention and there will be people wanting what you have. living what you live. being who you are. my boyfriend have learned this the hard way in his life.

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233. If the author gets those comments “Every. Single. Time.” she’s hanging out with the wrong people. Neither I nor any of my friends would ever respond like that. Kudos to her for trying to educate and enlighten but know that many of us agree 100% with her already.

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     1. You are aware that the internet isn’t just for people you “hang around with,” right? It’s kind of public and she’s talking about the general readership feeling like they have to comment negatively and call her a liar, not just people she chooses to spend time with. . .

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234. Amen!!!

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235. Why is it such a crime for a man to physically assault a woman’s body, but not equally criminal for a woman to assault a man’s mind?
     Remember, mental pain is the reason we have a multi-billion dollar psychiatric. industry. I’m not denying the damage caused by men sexually assaulting women, but I’m also not denying the mental harm a woman can cause a man. Men generally are more physically powerful than women, but women are generally more sexually powerful then men. Again, we see evidence of this sexual power in advertising and in a multi-billion dollar pornography industry. My point is that women can’t have it both ways.

     Women can’t claim they want to be treated for the person they are on the inside if they are drawing attention to their sexual powers. Feminism claims that women are strong, independent, and sexually liberated..but if that is true why do women live in fear as described by the author?

     Men can’t claim that they are mere beasts following their instincts as an excuse to use their physical power over women. Violence against another person is inexcusable.

     Maybe we should call a truce. Maybe women should realize that they are not strong and aim for modesty. Maybe men should realize that sexual fantasies are not real and strive for self-control. In this way, both acknowledge their power over the other, but refuse to exploit it.

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     1. Wow I’m glad not all men are as brain dead as you. You’re basically saying all men are neanderthals who can’t help but want to rape whenever they see boobs

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        1. wow that is not what he said at all. weird interpretation you made there.

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     2. If all women had the same one-sided perspective as the author, then your solution would be reasonable and the muslims have it right. Thankfully, the majority of women seem to be doing fine being free with their bodies and sexuality, which makes the author’s attitude of only voicing the negative aspects of being a cosmopolitan woman without acknowledging the relative advantages, an outlier perspective.

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     3. Quite frankly I believe abuse is abuse just as rape is rape regardless of which gender is doing it to which gender. I know the law disagrees pretty much everywhere, but as far as I’m concerned if a woman forces herself on a man and he does not consent (even if he gets sexually aroused) it is rape just as it is in the reverse case. And if a woman strikes her boyfriend it is abuse just as it is if he strikes her. They are horrendous things to happen to anyone.

        However, I would be intrigued to know what you mean by a woman assaulting a man’s mind. Because if you mean emotional abuse and manipulative behaviour then I agree it is awful, however if you mean a woman wears a body-flattering outfit to work everyday and her colleague can’t get the idea of screwing her out of his mind then that does definitely not count.

        So yes, a woman can wear a short skirt and still very rightfully demand to be listened to and have her rights respected. I have met many very attractive men who dressed well in clothing that showed off their body to its best and are still taken seriously when they talk, the same privilege is very rarely granted to women. So why exactly can’t we have it both ways when men already do?
        As for the media’s depiction of women as sexual-objects, that is a very man-driven concept. Look at who is directing the majority of those ads, who came up with the idea, who signed off on the idea, chances are they’re men. Just because there are women who model in these ads does not make it a thing the female gender is doing.

        A feminist (myself included) may claim that she as an individual is “strong, independent, and sexually liberated” but none would claim by any stretch that all women are, that is one of the main reasons we need feminism. A feminist would say however that all women are strong and all have the capability to be “independent and sexually liberated”.

        Also “Maybe women should realize that they are not strong and aim for modesty.” This line infuriates me so much and I am really trying to be sensible and moderate in my response to it.
        Women are sexually assaulted and raped regardless of what they are wearing, seriously, go do some reading then see if you still standby the idea that modesty is going to solve this issue.
        Even disregarding that, women dress first and foremost to make themselves feel good, why should they have to change that to appease a man? Your solution boils down to this;
        Man gets aroused from looking at woman and considers doing something immoral->Woman is in wrong for getting man aroused when she probably hasn’t even noticed him->Woman must stop what she is doing.
        You aren’t tackling the root of the problem this way. Yes, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for a man to be attracted to a woman, it is not acceptable however for him to then cat-call her, attempt to touch her without her consent, or to act violently towards her. The problem is his behaviour, not the way she is dressed. Clothing is not an indication of consent.

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     4. Please tell me your post is some kind of sick joke…. if it’s not, then please find some mental health help.

        Sexuality is a part of who someone is, that doesn’t mean that it’s there to be exploited by someone else, or that its how someone should be defined. Had you any respect for women, you’d realize that just because YOU looking at them runs through your own internal filter that sees SEX! first, doesn’t mean that that defines THEM….. it defines YOU and how you see the World….. and it’s not good.

        The Madonna/whore thing is bogus, women are fully-fledged human beings and as such we are multi-faceted — yes, we are sexual beings, but we are also intellectual beings, we are also spiritual beings, we are fully human and as such should not be judged/viewed/defined solely by only one aspect of our core humanity — do you expect to be defined solely by only one aspect of who you are? I’m guessing not — so then why in the World would you presume that it’s okay to try to define any other human being that way?

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        1. You will be seen by what you flout.. You don’t go to a job interview at an engineering firm in a bikini, or a Sports illustrated modelling gig in ‘geek’ clothes… you have the freedom to do either, certainly, and there wouldn’t be anything wrong about ACTUALLY doing it, but don’t complain about why you didn’t get the job when you made the wrong choice.

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           1. Who is talking about getting jobs? Your analogy makes no sense. And just about every woman here has said that we’re disrespected no matter what we wear, so . . . Maybe try listening, as the article requests.

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              1. Let me help you by posting the part of the comment I was replying to

                 ” yes, we are sexual beings, but we are also intellectual beings, we are also spiritual beings, we are fully human and as such should not be judged/viewed/defined solely by only one aspect of our core humanity”

                 I don’t want to be judged, viewed or defined by any single aspect either… but lets face it, stereotypes exist because they have been proven to save time.. If you appear to fit the stereotype the viewer will assume his experience with you will be the same as it has been with other of that stereotype.. it’s a mental shortcut.
                 THAT was the point of my comment about clothing and how you are portrayed.

                 I wasn’t referring to need to dress-down (and it not even working) to be treated respectfully.

                 Listening? I’ve done nothing but that for years with a lot of my female friends.. typically it happens between the time they are getting ready to leave one abusive asshole and the moment they meet the next. At which point I’m lucky if I ever hear from them again before disaster once again strikes. I choose to always listen to the friends I have, but I’m tired of the pattern of what happens when you’re a good listener.

236. I guess I’m not a woman (even though I have the parts) because none of this stuff has ever happened to me. I’ve never been groped by a coworker, had my boss slap my ass, an I don’t experience the daily sexual harassment or cat calling that a lot of women claim. And I’m not alone. This stuff doesn’t happen to all women. It seems to happen to city girls at an alarming rate (or maybe they just whine about it) but in the more country areas? Well, it hasn’t happened to me. Probably because country boys know a country girl will put her boot in his ass if that happened.

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     1. Just because you haven’t experienced it personally doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Yes it does happen more in cities, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that women are being degraded. You saying that women are “whining about it” stems from a larger issue of sexism that we have time to discuss. No one should feel afraid to walk to their car or go to the bar to get a drink alone. My boyfriend won’t let me go to the bar alone, because men have grabbed me, pushed me up against a wall, trapped me with their arms to talk…. These things are happening everywhere. And I shouldn’t be afraid to be a women anywhere I go. It’s a societal issue and I’m glad this was written.

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        1. doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, it just means the author of the text is by no means justified to speak in the name of all women when she speaks of her personnal experiences.
           this ”all women” crap is dismissive and actually oppressive to those of us who don’t live this reality at all. yet we are still women. we still exist. hello. 🙂

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     2. I live in a very small town and this has absolutely happened to me.

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        1. and i live in a big city and this is not my reality.
           so i guess the city vs town is not what makes the difference here.

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     3. So because it’s not your personal experience, it doesn’t count? For those who’ve experienced it, the complaint is just “whining”? Guess what, you’re part of the problem.

        I grew up in a small town — I had an attempted rape, and was harassed and catcalled regularly – I also had no problem punching guys in the face — happened anyway. I moved to NYC as a teenager — left 3 different butt-gropers unconscious in the subway in 3 different incidents. I’m older and fatter now, and it’s no longer a multiple times a day occurrence that some jackass looks me up and down and licks his lips, or makes a sucking/slurping noise in my ear as they walk past. And the old fart who tried to grab my breasts in the xerox room in the early 80s is likely long dead….. but I still get the occasional idiot who looks at me and has a knee-jerk “female, must harass” reaction and yowls something at me and gets told to grow the hell up and stop acting like some unevolved ape.

        If you’ve really never experienced any of that, I’m glad for you — but that doesn’t negate anyone else’s experiences, and you implying that it somehow does makes you part of the problem

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        1. she never said it does not count. why you interpret this ?

           i think she was refering to the title of the article implying that ALL WOMEN live this. which is obviously false… or all of us who don’t live this are not women ? which is actually dismissive.

           the truth is that some of us live it, and some of us don’t. and not one experience makes the other invvalid. but please peoples stop speaking in the name of all women. you are not qualified to do so.

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237. AS a black man it’s been a hard pill to swallow, but as I get older, I can’t deny that I did some of this behavior as a teen. I had to self educate and get turned on to feminist ideals as I got exposed to different people and their experiances. I think we need more discussion in public education towards these issues, because I have to admit, i thought cat-calling and objection was the “norm”. One the other hand, I shown studies that more women are getting frustrated from how many are single compared to men of their same age. As I began studying feminist ideals I’ve struggled with dating culture as well as when it’s appropriate to approach a woman that your interested in.

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     1. It’s good that you’re trying. Seriously, if every man tried to grow past that, we’d be a long way toward a solution. As for when it’s okay to ask someone out…. if she’s single and friendly, telling her that if she’s interested you’d like to go out sometime is not unreasonable — but if she says “no”, let it drop…. don’t keep asking once you have a “no”…. it’s really pretty simple actually. If she makes an excuse along the line of “I have plans that night” or “I’m prepping for exams right now and have no time”, you can ask if you should ask her out again another time, or if she would prefer you not…. then work with that answer.

        Telling someone you’d like to go out with them is not harassment — hitting on them repeatedly, after they’ve said “no”, is.

        And there’s no reason to be embarrassed about getting a “no”, or “no thank you” as long as you didn’t do something to be embarrassed about in the asking,

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238. While this article is absolutely true in most respects, it simply ignores the relative advantages the same ‘harassed women’ have over men in many other aspects of life.

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239. Great writeup – please consider the following points not as arguments, rather an attempt to add to the conversation.

     -Please consider that you are already preaching to the choir to those men actually willing to listen to you. Ignorance will not be overcome by asking fools to listen, one must demand to be heard!

     -Please consider that so many loving, caring men sit helpless and demoralized as generalizations group them in with demons and monsters. It hurts deeper than you think when you talk of the evils men commit. I am a man. I am a good man. tread lightly in how you direct accusations. “oh but not you, you’re one of the good ones.” doesn’t cut it.

     -Please consider that those men who do listen and hear you want to help! You are starting to be heard – a larger portion of society is waking up to the atrocities of inequality across many areas – what should we do? – awareness is great, but what do we now do with this information? conversation is vital, but only part of the solution towards change.

     -please consider that i can’t call out my brothers when they act like assholes, because I don’t hang with such people. Are we to batman the streets for catcallers, or superman the bars to fight gropes and grins? Please understand, at times, I fear for my life just as much as you. Not all men are as built for combat.

     -Please consider the realities men must face daily and through their lives. This does not excuse sin but must be recognized when building a narrative.

     -Please consider the myths that perpetuate to hurt the gender inequality battle.

     love and hugs,
     Good Men

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     1. Your mistake is trying to say you’re a good man. There are no good answers.

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     2. While yes, obviously there are many men who would never even consider sexually assaulting a woman, the reason these men are so rarely acknowledged is because how exactly are we meant so tell you apart when most rape cases are committed by someone the victim knows -people they trusted and even considered ‘friends’ (or even family). Men who had always been sweet and kind and acted just like a nice person.
        Or when their boyfriend who bought them flowers and called them beautiful and helped them shelter from the world and feel safe when things were going wrong suddenly turns round and hits them for talking to ‘that guy’ or because ‘it’s good for them’. Or chips away slowly at their girlfriend’s confidence and self-worth and tries to utterly control every aspect of her life.

        It’s also to stop the issue of monsters vs men. Them vs us. The idea that rapists are these horrible evil creatures (which don’t get me wrong, they are) but therefore they could never be your son/friend/dad/etc. That guy is a normal man, not one of those rapist-monsters, he could never do anything like that; it was clearly something she did to provoke it, or she’s got the wrong person, or was drunk and is remembering incorrectly, or is lying to make a scene. Which, as awful as it sounds, happens very very very often when survivors come forth to try and expose their rapists. Instead of getting the support, reassurance and justice that they deserve, victims are instead left having to fight off accusations from family members/communities/teachers/friends (even random people), that they’re making it all up to ruin this guy’s life because he’s not a rapist, he’s not a monster, he’s a normal nice guy.

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     3. I don’t believe any reasonable person has implied, nor inferred, that this is the behavior of ALL men. Unfortunately, the men who DO behave in such a manner are the ones who are the loudest. They’re the ones standing out on street corners yowling at women. They’re the ones following coworkers into the Xerox room and trying to corner them. They’re the ones making the most noise….. so they’re the one’s being in-your-face noticed. MOST of the men I know are respectful of women. They embrace our core humanity and believe in our most basic human rights, including the right to self.

        Unfortunately it’s the slime-balls who make the most noise.

        As for what we can do…. teach our children better. If you’re a father, teach both your daughters and your sons that all people are worthy of respect. That being human comes with certain rights, and that they apply to all of us, regardless of gender or any other difference. Teach your children that deliberately seeking to make another feel bad is not acceptable behavior…. no matter why they think someone has a “target” on their forehead. Teach them that all people are worthy of respect, but not all behaviors are.

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     4. Please don’t ‘white knight.’ It’s a waste of time. The guys who read this type of article don’t engage in the described behavior.

        The guys that do this stuff just don’t care. Want to know why? Because those guys are assertive, confidant, and don’t give a fuck. They put themselves first everytime. And guess what? Those are the guys who get laid- all the time. They get the anonymous sex and hallway blow jobs you think only happens in porn.

        I know because I get them. I’m a reformed feminist. As soon as I embraced my true sexual nature, rather than kowtowing to feminist bullshit, I got laid. Sex for nothing, I don’t even have to give respect. As long as you have a hot body, money, and status, you can treat women however you want. They’ll be pleased to fuck you.

        Women are just people. Please don’t give them extra privileges. News Flash: the world is dangerous for everyone. Don’t waste your time on this shit.

        No, I don’t street harass women. I don’t cat call. I don’t trap women in bars. For the love of ass, get your head straight bro. And yes, it’s ‘all’ girls.

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240. Reblogged this on While you were sleeping.

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241. There are some very impressive points made in this article. I think what many miss is the need for mutual respect between the sexes. This article is very one-sided, and that’s probably okay. But until we have mutual respect, we won’t get much further than “my gender is picked on more than yours” and increased resentment.

     If I may point out one example. The author suggests that being looked at suggestively by older men or other unwanted looking is offensive, but seems also to suggest that dressing sexually is acceptable. Might I suggest that 13 year old boys have just as much right to be protected from sexual behavior of older women (including being exposed to immodest dress and behavior) as my 13 year old daughter is to be protected from looks.

     My daughter will be told from the time she is born that she is a sex object and her value comes from her sexuality. My 13 year old son will be told that he is a no good male who is naturally aggressive and abusive as a result of his chromosomes. Somehow we have to establish firm principles that are universal and consistent for all people, rather than bashing certain groups and extending special protections to others.

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     1. I fully agree that 13 year old boys should be protected from sexual behaviour, but not by women covering up. As soon as you tell someone to cover up you are telling them that their body is a problem. That in turn sends out a message to those 13 year old boys that women should be covered up and as such a woman in a short skirt is something “indecent” and fair-game for harassment as she has chosen to do the wrong thing.
        Obviously it’s not as clear a message as that, but those are the ideas that actions like that introduce.
        Those boys need to be taught that a woman can dress the way she pleases and that does not make her a better or worse person, (obviously excluding anything like dressing up in a racial or cultural stereotype etc) and that the same is true for men. If they want to wear a pink shirt or even ribbons in their hair they should be allowed to and not mocked or called some homophobic slur.

        The fact stands that a girl who is leered at is very different from a boy who sees a woman in a short skirt. The girl is being acted upon by others -something she can’t stop, whereas the boy is looking -something he can stop, by looking away.
        Obviously if an older woman (or man) were to deliberately expose themselves to a young girl or boy that would be very wrong in pretty much all scenarios, and if a young boy/girl is taken to strip club or an older woman/man attempts to interact with them it is wrong. But you seemed to be also including less extreme cases than these by your wording, hence my paragraph above. (I am sorry if I was wrong)

        As for your point about the 13 year old growing up to be told he is naturally aggressive, I couldn’t agree more. It is a shameful thing to teach anybody and quite clearly can lead to many insecurities and problematic behaviours. They get told they should be aggressive and ‘tough’ to be ‘real men’, which can make some behave horribly and causes many who don’t to be mocked and belittled for it. It also leads to some very serious issues, such as many men with depression or mental illnesses not seeking help as they’ve been taught not to have ‘girly’ feelings and to ‘suck it up’ or ‘grow some balls’. Which is a major factor in the high-suicide rates amongst men.
        Many men are even reluctant to go see their GP as some see it as a sign of weakness.

        Gender equality is just that; equality for all genders. That means there are no ‘manly/masculine’ behaviours or ‘girly/feminine’ behaviours. Women and men* are worth the same and valued the same. Women and men are equally allowed to express their feelings and know they are valid and be supported.
        Obviously if a particular woman excels at plumbing she is just as valued as a woman who excels at baking and the same is true for men. A woman is not valued higher for some things than others and neither is a man.

        I am ranting and am going to stop, but I hope I’ve been clear. 🙂

        *(To clarify, when I say women and men I am also including all other gender identities, however to write “women and men and all other gender identities” every time was a bit long, sorry!)

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        1. *older woman/man attempts to interact (sexually) with them it is wrong

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        2. Clearly we have boundaries on dress and behavior. The current notion of “I can dress however I want but you better not look at me in a way I don’t like” is not reasonable or consistent. Certain levels of exposure will get one put in jail. Either there is such a thing as decency, or there is not. The question is, where is that line?

           I think that to be respectful of females, I should be cautious how I look at them, and how much of my body I expose to them. I hope they will do the same for me. But I would not be surprised or complain if I were to expose my body and females look at me because of what I choose to expose to others in public.

           Mutual respect… something we seem to have lost any concept of.

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242. Thank you.

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243. So great to read words from the like-mind of a woman who understands. I am so sorry for the awful comments you receive. Just keep in mind that if all that icky darkness is coming out of the woodwork…you must be doing something good. Don’t stop for all your sisters sakes, we need you.

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244. Come check out our blog! takingastandongenderinequality

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245. Even in supposedly good relationships, we may acquiesce and de-escalate in order to prevent angering him–when we haven’t the emotional and mental strength to endure another long, drawn-out argument.

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246. I was blown away by a video I watched of a woman wearing jeans and a crew neck t-shirt who was repeatedly cat-called while simply walking on a city sidewalk, not even making eye contact with anyone. To make the video, she had a friend walk in front of her with a hidden camera in his backpack. Here is the URL if anyone else is interested. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1135634/Woman-catcalled-108-times-walking-New-York.html

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247. So true! My awareness started around 10 years old and i think and it is the main reason part of me has always wanted to be a man, although i have benefitted in this life from being an attractive woman in thus life too, I have always been jealous of their stength and independence. Having said all that, it does become better with age, partly due to confidence, but sadly also loss of looks. It can be confusing being a woman.

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248. Reblogged this on S. Hilton and commented:
     We must listen. For our Mothers. For our Sisters. For our Daughters.

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249. It’s true we are taught or learn to minimize such situations. It is also very true that we do this because we aren’t sure how to handle it and if we will be placed in harms way one way or another. I was raped. My best friend was in the room building up anger in the corner thinking she was trapped and I was simply using alcohol as an excuse. The truth? I had told that guy not twelve hours before I didn’t want to go past holding hands for now. I had blacked out from the two shots he had poured me. I woke up with no clothes on and only had a minute to figure out how best to protect myself before I blacked out again (whether from alcohol or sheer fear I still don’t know). When I woke up the next day and my best friend told me that I lost my virginity the night before and I asked her if this was indeed rape. Had I really been placed in the presence of the mythical monster that we are always told simply saying no in the presence of friends should scare off? She said no. The best she could process the situation, I had simply been taken advantage of. No way could it possibly have been rape. In a struggle to find normalcy and to avoid having to explain any of this to my christian and catholic family members I agreed to accept his apology in person. When doing so, it felt that in order to truly feel normal I would have to date him and lose my conscious virginity to him so that I wouldn’t have to explain to someone new why I’m technically not a virgin but I have no idea what’s going on past kissing and have never seen anything past kissing. I dated him for three years trying to fulfill the norm. I had grown up with the expectation built in me to only ever be with one man. If I were going to give up on the one thing I have always been taught was the proper way and was a noble goal to aspire to, I was going to fight for it first. I spent three years watching my friends disappear. I spent three years watching myself stammering more and more and being able to go outside less and less. I spent three years wondering why, when I had felt so happy and excited for my new life outside of high school to begin just four years ago, I was so apprehensive to take part in anything outside of my place of residence. I spent three years wondering why, if I were out in public for more than a couple of hours, I would feel like breaking down in tears and finding a tight dark place to hide in. My mind always wandered back to that night and then cut short to my friends words “there’s no way that was rape.” I don’t blame her. When I finally got two months away from him and had so much free time I was forced to process everything, I realized she and I had both just been trying to find the norm in society in fear of being judged, ridiculed, or possibly seen as easy targets. He was easily twice our size. He made it clear that night that if he wanted something he would find his way to it. As I got to know him over those three years, I found that he only pushed this when he was drunk, however. When alcohol took away his fear of society. We found a way to survive by minimizing. Possibly to the extreme. All I ask after reading all of this is that you not judge me, but realize just how true and relevant this article is. Mine might seem like an extreme example, I simply think it is the epitome of what she is trying to get across. I was simply a teenage girl taking her first break from focusing on school and work for the past eight years where I had brushed off all of the little moments mentioned in this article only to find myself in the big one that is still discussed in society so little that I had no idea how to handle it.

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     1. I’m really sorry that happened to you.

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250. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sigh.

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251. I may be labeled as a victim blamer but here are my thoughts on the matter.

     To be fair the part of the Male population that you are talking about is very small. I am sorry that Women have to go through that but it is not going to end unfortunately. My suggestion is to empower yourself (that sounds cheesy doesn’t it) by doing something. What am I talking about?

     Take some self defense classes and/or ongoing martial arts classes. Not only will this help with feeling vulnerable but its a great way to stay in shape and can be fun. Channel your inner Ronda Rousey (I wouldn’t want to go up against her in an alley and I am a 220 pound man).

     Get armed. It doesn’t matter what kind of weapons you are willing to carry, you need to know how to operate them and feel comfortable doing so. You mention putting your keys between your fingers but have you ever actually hit something with them? I would suggest pepper spray at a minimum and a small canister could be held in your hand on those walks to your car. I wouldn’t suggest something like a knife or any type of hand to hand weapon (like the keys you use now), you want something you can use from a distance if you are feeling threatened.

     Avoid these situations if you can and always be aware of your surroundings. This is something that I do, its not exclusive to any gender.

     And that is the main thing I might suggest you are missing. Feeling vulnerable isn’t something that only happens to women. I feel vulnerable sometimes as well and it is heightened when I am with a Woman or group of Women because I feel obligated to protect them if something should happen. We all have our own unique struggles and while we can only experience them from our own perspective obsessing about who has it “worse” or “harder” isn’t going to change anything. Be proactive about your problems and maybe you will gain piece of mind knowing that you are more formidable than you gave yourself credit for this whole time.

     And if your significant other isn’t responsive to your fears and doesn’t take your concerns seriously then maybe it is time to tell him to hit the road. Part of my goal in all the relationships I have been in is to make my partner feel safe when I am with her.

     I will see you out in the world, I will be the guy who holds the door open for you and doesn’t make you feel uncomfortable or threatened…At least not intentionally. Unfortunately that will go unnoticed and certainly wont be remembered like when the idiots among us make you uncomfortable and that is a shame.

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252. So when you say men seems your stereotyping heavily here as I have never seen anyone wolf whistle or make unwanted advances. If they are unwanted then the woman should just speak up and be comfortable with her body. Don’t you realise that this kind of thinking is no better than China censoring everything and everyone’s opinion. If I think a woman is attractive and say something I’m suddenly raping her and should never have said anything. Why don’t we just all walk around in a straight jacket?

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     1. The whole point of the article is that in many cases, many women don’t feel safe with ‘speaking up’ it’s not ‘Oh no, I don’t want to cause a scene’ it’s ‘I don’t want to be physically assaulted.’ or ‘I don’t want to lose my job’ or ‘If I speak up they’ll just laugh and get worse’

        And giving anybody a compliment is a lovely thing to do, but it all depends on how you do it, telling her to her face, “Your hair looks really nice today” or “I think you’re very pretty” Assuming you’re not doing it with a creepy grin on your face or are a stranger way-laying her on her way to do errands or are in a dark alleyway at night then that’s perfectly fine and a nice thing to do.
        However, yelling at her “Nice rack love!” And then laughing with your mates or making obscene gestures is not the same thing and is not done to make a woman feel good, but rather for a guy to assert his dominance or prove how ‘manly’ or ‘funny’ he is to his mates.
        In the same way going up to her randomly and going “I’d love to bend you over and f*** you” is also not a nice thing to do and is obviously going to make someone feel insecure and objectified.

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        1. it depends on women probably… i remember a man telling me this… at least 15 years older than i was… the ”i’d like to bend you over and fuck you” thing… someone i knew a little bit, but not much… i felt my blood boil. it turned me on. really. i did not accept his proposition, i was in a relationship with another man. but i still think of it. the boldness of the approach. the simplicity. some women like that, really. i do.

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     2. So because you’ve “never seen it”, that means it doesn’t happen? You do realize that there is a HUGE difference between paying someone you’re actually having a normal conversation with a respectful compliment, and leering at them, saying something belitting as a “compliment” or staring at their boobs the whole time you’re talking to them, right? You do realize that asking someone out (if you’re willing to take “no” as an answer and not be an ass about it, or keep trying if they’ve said no) is HUGELY different from a guy on the street grabbing his crotch and shouting “hey baby, I’ve got something for you!”…. right?

        Just the very notion that because YOU’ve “never seen it” (maybe you aren’t paying attention), it doesn’t exist, is part of the problem. Other people’s experiences do not have to mirror your own in order to be valid….. the notion that they do is part of the problem.

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253. It’s horrible that some girls are raped. It’s horrible that some people die from terror bombers. But can we make something clear here! It’s not okay to judge muslims and think every time you see one they’ll blow up any second. The same goes for girls who are completely paranoid about men and think they’ll be raped whenever they see a man. Do you know how horrible it is to be misjudged like that? They misjudge you as the worst scum of the earth. That’s worse than a guy who just look at you and thinks you’re pretty. That’s actually just a compliment if we do that. I get it must be annoying with the 1 % guys who crosses the line, but please don’t misjudge the rest of us on their behalf. That will just create a bigger problem. Especially for you personally if you see ghosts all over as it sounds like this OP does whenever she goes to the mall.

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254. I believe it all starts in the home, Fathers and Mothers teaching their children to respect others and to make responsible choices. The difficulty is getting all mothers and fathers to do that. And stop devaluing the value of discipline (not abusive discipline, but constructive discipline where there are consequences-not just blank words-for ones actions).

     If you have respect you won’t cat-call, if you have respect you won’t grab caboose, if you have respect you won’t verbally or physically abuse, if you have respect you won’t assault, if you have respect you won’t rape. If you have respect you treat others courteously, kindly, and honorably in word and deed.

     Interesting how so many women face these challenges, how many of their own mothers faced these challenges, and how many of their sons cause these problems. It would appear those sons are not learning proper respect toward women from their own mothers or fathers (though don’t forget about personal choice).

     As one who has never cat-called, grabbed caboose, assaulted, abused, or raped, I declare the value of Mothers and Fathers that teach true values (don’t for a second think that single Mothers or Fathers can’t do it, they can), and that there are a plethora of good guys out there that women can confide in and talk about these challenges to.

     Side note: If you have respect you won’t cheat, you won’t steal, you won’t lie, and you won’t be racist. i.e respect fixes many of our society’s problems, but it has to be taught and learned. And though teaching respect to your own children doesn’t fix the problem as a whole, you can rest assured that your children won’t be part of the problem!

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255. GROW. UP. because a man has never had to minimize a tense, awkward or dangerous situation

     you think men dont experience this kind of thing? they’re much more likely to fall victim to most of these issues than YOU ARE

     the reality of “being a woman” in our world is that you’ve got the most power and the least responsibility, enjoy it while it lasts and stop sobbing about it

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     1. Oh please,
        Yes, guys can be in dangerous situations, yes I’m sure many guys would feel unsafe walking home alone at 2am through an alleyway, no-one is denying any of that.

        But really?

        Men are more likely to get cat-called? I’m sure it happens to some, but more likely? Really? And at ages of 14, 13, etc? And for that to be considered normal by a large member of the population?
        Men are more likely to be physically groped? To have their bums smacked or their legs felt up? Once again, I’m sure it happens, but more likely?
        Men are likely to be cornered by a guy bigger than them who is forcibly trying to shove his hand down their pants and stick his tongue down their throat. Really?

        …I’m “really” not sure you’ve thought this through.

        Yes men get mugged or beaten up or even raped and these are all horrible. But when was the last time you seriously felt genuinely threatened and afraid of a threat you weren’t even sure was there? What if that happened every time you were out by yourself. Even in daylight, even on your own road, or in your own home.
        When was the last time you felt pressured to just accept when someone twice your age and weight slaps you on the a*s?

        As for women having the most power?
        Once again, and with so much exasperation it is impossible to convey over the internet, really?!
        How many female leaders do you see in today’s society versus men? How many women do you see in senior roles in businesses verses men? How many female politicians do you see versus male ones? How many female sports are valued as highly and taken as seriously as male ones?

        As for the least responsibility, what responsibility does a man have that a woman does’t?
        “Fighting Wars”? Women do that as well “Not on the front lines!” Because we’re NOT ALLOWED to, if we were there would be lines of female soldiers waiting to sign up.
        “Pay the bills”? Once again, women do that as well, I for one earn more than my boyfriend and neither of us have an issue with that.

        If you’re talking overall responsibility held by women as opposed to men though, I will have to concede to you there; men do have responsibility. But do you know why? Because they have the most power in today’s society. They hold the most powerful positions. Why? Higher qualified and better suited women are overlooked for a powerful role time and time again in favour of a man.*
        Responsibility is a by product of power. Do the maths.

        *Obviously there are also many talented and well qualified men, but as has been proved by many blind-interview procedures, the biggest disadvantage a woman can have when applying for a job in a powerful position is the fact that she’s a woman.
        To be clear, my point;
        A man can be better qualified and better suited than a woman and they will rightfully get the job. But a woman can be better qualified and better suited than a man and still not get the job.

        Oh looky! An impartial example that I saw literally the other day
        http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903

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        1. I like to ask men questions like “Why would I not want to stay in a hotel with doors on the outside?” “Why would I call a friend while walking home(or pretend to)?” and other such questions. They usually don’t know and that’s fine. Because they haven’t had to think about such things.

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256. This is so well said. I had similar feelings and did the only thing I know how to do which is write a song about it. Then I got some death threats but it’s cool. I left the comment section open so have a laugh/shiver while you browse. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6pfsrk445kc

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257. LOL!!!

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258. We live in a visual pleasing world. Media is constantly sexualizing woman. Violent acts against women are far to common on cable television. This is our culture. Nothing will change till people drop their egos and realize the only thing that divides us is our thoughts, perception, and this shell of a body.

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259. “Women who are dressing up are asking for it”? How right, and how wrong at the same time.

     Men having to make the move is not just nature or hormones – it is what the society expects from them. Few women are happy to take the initiative. Most are openly abrasive to men who shy away from going first. Yes, catcalling and groping (not even speaking about rape etc) is definitely a wrong form of initiative. But still, dressing provocatively and walking among men, expecting all of them to keep back, is as realistic as smearing a pot of honey over yourself and walking through a cloud of bees, expecting all of them to pay you no attention. Should be so, but…

     At the same time, men definitely can learn a lot from the unobtrusiveness of the women. As it was said, women are able to feel attraction with the same strength as men, but manage to control their behavior. If a woman is too desperate for a man, she might dress well for him, seek contact diplomatically, hint him on closeness, maybe even take the initiative. However, how often do you see women catcalling on men? Or groping them? Obviously women beat men at self-control. 🙂

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260. I’m a woman in a technical field, and this woman does not represent me. Where does she get the nerve to use “All women” in her title? I’m sick of other women butting their nose in my body. Feminists do this more than any republican ever did. Karen Straughans videos on youtube explains (through evolutionary biology) why micro aggression and stares bother women so much. Its primal urge to not want attention from unknown man; in primitive times this was something that could lead to 9 months pregnancy with sub par ma. Men also can’t project their primal urges and blame others for it. She says she likes to “muse” but that doesn’t mean anything she says is logical or intelligent or not based on frivolous emotion.
     This women has no idea why she feels as she does and blames men and thinks she is a victim. Maybe if “every single time” people complain about her petty complaints, they are actually right. Of course, as a women she thinks world revolves around her and everybody else is wrong. Grow up and go help a Muslim women or falsely accused man of rape.

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     1. While I agree that many women do not feel this way, and it is highly annoying to be told that you do feel a certain way when you really don’t. Or to have yourself presented by someone else as constantly ‘on-edge’ or afraid.

        I think the purpose of the wording was to encourage all those boyfriends/friends/etc to stop and think about their behaviour and the behaviour of other people, to consider whether something really is a laugh or whether their girlfriend/friend/daughter/sibling/colleague might have been made very uncomfortable about it.
        It’s to try and stop the guy from shrugging it off as a one-person thing, or to assume the girl is fine just because she hasn’t told him otherwise.
        It’s so her boyfriend takes her seriously when she says, “Your friend really makes me feel uncomfortable, I’d rather you didn’t have him round here” and doesn’t ignore her and think she’s being ‘naggy’ or difficult.

        I agree it’s a tad dramatic and exaggerated for a lot of women, but anything like this that might open up a dialogue between two people is helpful, even if that dialogue is simply ‘No, I’ve never felt that. I don’t need you to be my night in shining armor or to worry about me, I can handle this myself.’

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261. All those statistic she put out about rape culture are false. In Canada, we have a womens affairs minister who can veto any information that she wants….she can distort how many men are domestic abuse victims, how many women are perpetrators, how many men are raped, etc.. for media if women’s minister sees fit.

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     1. We don’t have such a person in the US and if we did it would probably be a man.

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262. Oh my gosh. Yes! I still minimize and de-escalate. Like today when the old man actually asked me if my dimples were for sale. I just laughed, but I was also a little annoyed because this attitude from men ‘that I’m here to smile at them’ happens EVERYDAY.
     THAN YOU!

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     1. Doesn’t sound like you’re the type of person who does much smiling if an old fellow bothers you that much (Old.. I’m talking like 80, not 30-60). He didn’t ask if your breasts were for sale.

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263. Thank you.

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264. What an incredible outspoken good piece of work! I love this one. It shows exactly how I’ve lived my life. Thank you for writing it and bringing me back to the sence and awareness of it. I’ve always been quite aware of the presence of man ever since I was little. That older man saw me.. Your words come alive to me as I read them. Thank you for reminding us and bringing it out to the world, out to men.

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265. Fabulous discussion, Green Dragon Artist. Thanks for airing this again.

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266. I agree with a lot of this article. It’s clear and eye-opening to me how much women have to put up with day-to-day. I do object to generalising all men as potential rapists, although I understand the fear that every man could be a potential rapist. The sad thing is that the majority of men who will read this (myself included) do not need to be convinced – I’m already on your side and was before reading this article. But those who are not can never be bothered to read something like this in case it makes them doubt themselves. It’s those not on your side that need convincing, although how to do this when they shut their ears to it, I’m not so sure.

     I do think it’s important however not to demonise. By suggesting every man is a potential rapist, it draws an image of all men as evil – good vs bad in a perpetual struggle. Ultimately, this isn’t the goal of calling out sexism, because it can then breed sexism against men. Which takes us right back to the start again. Men are not the bad guys and nor are women. Both exist in a flawed system which, although unquestionably panders to mens’ interests, has been allowed to continue by women. Men shouldn’t have created the system in the first place, I know. But rather than get bogged down, what is needed is a new approach of genuine and sincere equality for both genders. That means the stereotypes of women have to go, and so too do those of men.

     Well, that’s my two cents anyway.

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     1. men created the system because they realized this is what attracted women. the system is completely a representation of our reproductive dynamics. women are biologically looking for a place with security and abundance, and will be interested in where she perceives there is the most of this. so men compete with each other to attract the best females.
        it is not just men that created the system. we created it together. one by direct action, and the other by indirect but equally important participation.
        the system is just a consequences of human reproductive patterns.

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267. Keep the faith. Keep up the good work and good people will gravitate towards you. I’d not insult your intelligence by saying, “Just ignore them, don’t give them any attention” because that’s impossible.

     But what I do when I get hassles and stress (not same as what you’re writing about here) is just use that emotion. Look what’s it got you? This fabulous article that’s generated SO much debate.

     I need a massage on my arm now after scrolling the comments!

     Cheers, Bill Q

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268. Excellent.

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269. Thank you for sharing this. Well said and well written.

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270. This doesn’t really happen to me. I know I’m not ugly, I’ve had several boyfriends and my online accounts are often chocked with men that I collected while I was single. I’m just an intimidating person. I’ve fought men and women as young as I can remember because I am a sensitive but aggressive person. I don’t stand up to unfairness most the time.

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271. Despite all the cries from men who say HEY LOOK AT US WE’RE VICTIMS TOO and the ones who say FUCK YOUR STEREOTYPES #ALLLIVESMATTER I heavily agree with what was said. Majority of the things you wrote about, I can relate to. I’ve been in two incidents where I didn’t want to report anything to police because I didn’t know if it “counted” as sexual assault because we were in a consensual relationship. Women put up with so much and it’s time that people stop giving us shit because we care about our safety. If we don’t give a shit then who will? Keep up the fantastic work!!

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272. This is a great article, but the comments further the feeling women have of being helpless. Just because you’ve never experienced it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

     I’m a moderately attractive female. I do modeling, I work retail, I go out in public in general, and there is no end to the uncomfortable situations I end up in just by waking up and going to work.

     Don’t think customers will harass you? Try being trapped at work by yourself while some guy completely ignores you when you turn them down, and instead they hold you hostage and won’t leave because they know you can’t leave. Try getting your ass grabbed by a customer and having your boss tell you off for standing up for yourself. Try dealing with leaving work and finding that creepy guy who was hitting on you is waiting in the parking lot for you to get off. It’s terrifying. I’ve stayed at work for hours past my shift waiting on my male coworker to get off just so I can leave and feel safe, or having to have my boyfriend come meet me and pick me up because I’m afraid of some creep who just wouldn’t stop insisting that I’d “have a great time with him”.

     Don’t think friends will treat you poorly for not having sex with them? I’ve had a guy (completely sober) pin me down and wouldn’t let me up because I wouldn’t kiss him. It took another guy walking in the room and flipping out on him to get the guy to let me up. Ever felt terrified because you were powerless to do anything? It’s one of the worst feelings you could imagine. I’ve had guys stop being my friend for telling them I don’t want to sleep with them. I had a male coworker at my old job dump a huge bottle of freezing water all over me because I told him I wasn’t interested in a date…5 times. I’ve had men who were pissed that I wouldn’t cheat on my boyfriend send him facebook messages about what I slut I am and try to destroy my relationship.

     I get dick pics in my inbox on facebook, twitter, tumblr, email, etc, on a daily basis. When you tell the guys off, they often rebuttal with “I’m going to kill you you fucking bitch”. Don’t think it happens? Then you really should give listening to females a try.

     Don’t think bosses ever sexually harass their employees? Go to corporate? What if it’s a local business? What if corporate doesn’t believe you? My old boss was a creep. He stalked the female manager (drove by her house), would trash the store whenever she got a new boyfriend, and constantly made disgusting sexual remarks about every female employee, grabbed girls asses, etc. And guess what? He OWNED the business, so who do you report to? I talked to his wife about it and asked if I could come work at her store, she was really sweet, the boss found out and fired me the next day because I reached out to someone because I felt unsafe. But yeah…just go tell the boss. (Not that I regretted being fired, but it IS a reality).

     What about the hundreds of rapes on college campuses? I’m from a college town, the school ran on covering up any sexual discrepancies, especially if it involved rape. It looks bad for the school. Female students often get backlash for reporting a sex crime. Women in general get backlash for reporting a sex crime. Look at all the ignorant comments on this, the poorly educated people who are actually angry about an article that tries to help women. THIS IS OUR REALITY.

     I can’t walk down the street in baggy clothes without getting screamed at or honked at by some creep.

     I’ve more than once tried to simply go into a store and found my way blocked by a guy who insisted I had to stop and talk to him.

     These things have happened to a point that I don’t even like leaving my house. I see a man outside a store or walking my way on the sidewalk and I panic and have to pull out my phone. I keep a huge blade in my hand when walking anywhere just in case.

     No, you may not have these experiences, but if you think they aren’t real, than you’re an idiot and part of the problem. Being a woman in today’s society is terrifying.

     Not to mention, if we get raped and are impregnated, our bodies actually DON’T have ways of shutting it down, but society tells us to live with the nightmare whether we’re ready or not.

     Anyone who actually disagrees with this article are part of the problem.

     If you don’t think we need feminism, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

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     1. Well, boy I stepped in it, and stir up a hornet’s net. Wish I would have written my post differently now. Left out too many points I should have made so I’m just going to leave it at this.

        It just seems like common sense in a nation running wild with debauchery, with lewd sexual innuendos all over TV, in music, in movies, in advertising, in media, in an $18 billion dollar porn industry that when a women goes out she would dress modestly to help keep the wolves at bay. I see now after reading many of the comments I was naive to think this would curtail most of the problems with men’s boorish behavior. It’s clear now it wouldn’t curtail most of it, but I do think it will help to a significant degree.

        My apologies to any woman that I offended with my post. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted at all.

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273. Gretchen, I so appreciated this post. I’ve got a new book coming out in January about exactly what you write about here. The book will be followed by another, more focused work book and a series of workshops and lectures. Your grasp of everyday sexism and many of your thoughts here make me think that you might be interested in contributing to this project. If you are interested in a conversation, you can find me on my blog shapingdestinythebook.com. Hope to hear from you and thanks for the great post.

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274. You want to talk about physical abuse and sexism? Let’s start with genital mutilation, which is the way our male babies are welcomed into the world in the United States. Females are protected against this assault of their genitals and indeed, female genital mutilation is illegal in this country; however, our male children are not protected against this atrocity and they begin their lives with an assault to their sexual organs which might indeed, in later years in the adult male, contribute to the kind of sexual inappropriate conduct that this articles addresses. Female newborns are protected by the law, our precious sons are not. There’s some sexism for you, right out of the gate.

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     1. So why haven’t men been rallying to outlaw circumcision? Why haven’t men been petitioning the lawmakers (who, in the US, are predominately conservative, middle-aged, white men) to stop this happening?

        When you can demonstrate that women are the ones who are forcing circumcision onto male babies through their domination of lawmaking hierarchies, you might have an argument for sexism.

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        1. Why aren’t men addressing it?
           It’s a taboo topic.
           Who would want to stand forward when it highlights a perceived deficiency of their masculinity.
           I’m not sure of the link to sexually inappropriate behaviour..it’s definitely a hidden issue.

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           1. ‘Who would want to stand forward when it highlights a perceived deficiency of their masculinity’ Sorry but when feminism first emerged it was hated upon by EVERYONE, feminists were outcast by both men and women. The fact that it’s a taboo topic is NOT a reason not to stand up for an issue, otherwise many important issues would never be stood up for. Of course it’s difficult to stand up for an issue when it will make people perceive you in a certain way, but that’s exactly what feminists have been doing for centuries.

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        2. Men have not rallied because ITS NOT THAT IMPORTANT. Get it?

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     2. And the fact that circumcision happens is not related at all with the women’s reality. I don’t think you have a point. I don’t even know what you are trying to do with this comment.. make us feel bad because we don’t want to accept this anymore? guilty?

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        1. I totally agree with this comment, circumcision is totally besides the point of this post. It’s your preconceived notions that stop you from understanding women’s reality, and comments like the above that prove your ignorance.

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     3. It’s not a law that boys have to be circumcised. You can say no. Or rather, your parents could say no.

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        1. by your logic here, cultural norms cannot be wrong, because they are not illegal. just saying.

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     4. You can choose to not get your son circumcised… It is not a law.

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        1. excision is not a law neither, but a social norm in some countries.
           that does not make it more acceptable…

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     5. ‘A woman is trying to make me empathize with her! I must insist that men are greater victims than women are!’

        That’s how you come across.

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     6. We have a red herring penalty on the defensive whiny guy.

        Five yard penalty, second down.

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        1. Haha!:D

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     7. Are you FREAKING serious? My boys were never circumsized. Its a CHOICE, not mutilation by sexual predators. For pete’s sake. Grow up. I get the DISTINCT impression that you are publicly trying to excuse your sexual predation upion your victims by blaming THEM for you father’s decision to get you circumsized.. Its not working. Pathetic. Perhaps you could get a foreskin transplant? Will that stop you?

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        1. it is not the choice of the victim though.
           just like excision is the choice of the parents.
           that does not make it acceptable !!!!

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     8. Also this is a straw man argument, imo. Nothing about a normal circumcision will prevent a man from having a normal sex life. And the practice came about in an effort to help a man’s health, whether that’s still backed up by science now, it was never a means to control or intentionally harm him. FGM is preformed so a woman will not enjoy sex, to control her sexuality and keep her pure for marriage and faithful after. So they are not the same thing at all.

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        1. I’m disinclined to address the issue of circumcision altogether because it draws away from the very important message of the article, but I’m sorry, there is a lot of misinformation in your comment. Circumcision does affect a man’s sex life, believe it or not, AND HIS PARTNER’S. A circumcised penis can cause increased friction and dryness and can even lead to tearing of the vaginal wall. For the man it means fewer nerve endings (from the removed foreskin) and less sensitive nerve endings from the exposed skin of the head. Overall sex is likely less enjoyable for both partners. As to why boys are circumcised, in America it started out as a way to prevent boys from masturbating–so yes, it was about control. Now it’s done as a matter of tradition, and the whole argument from health is just an excuse. Another ridiculous excuse is that a boy will feel confused if his penis doesn’t look like his father’s. When has a boy ever been traumatized by his own foreskin or his father’s lack thereof?

           However, let’s not get too off track here. Men are privileged in some ways, and women are privileged in some ways. Men are disadvantaged in some ways, and women are disadvantaged in some ways. We need a way to address both the issues that women face as well as the issues that men face. One does not preclude the other. But let’s be serious. Men are more privileged than women, and women are more disadvantaged than men, and so we need to make room for women’s voices to be heard. I am always amazed that men with mothers, daughters, spouses, and sisters don’t take these issues seriously, or they get defensive or become dismissive when they are brought up.

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           1. Actually mate, the potential health benefits of circumcision aren’t a made up fact. My grandfather was a urologist who helped my parents decide to get me circumcised at birth to make it easier for me later on down the track. Yes, some nerve endings are lost in the process but the health benefits outweigh the loss in nerves by quite a substantial amount. Also, it doesn’t make sex any less enjoyable for either side. If the foreskin of a penis is making that much of an impact on someone’s sex life, they need to check how they’re doing things in the bedroom.

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     9. If you think female genital mutilation is the same as removing the foreskin of a penis, you lack understanding of human anatomy. FGM removes the ciltoris either completely or partially so that a women can feel no pleasure from sex. The equivalent of FGM in a male would be to remove the glans penis, and since I already know you know nothing about anatomy, thats the “head” of the penis. Stop comparing the two, because they are NOT the same.

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     10. Female genital mutilation still occurs in the US first of all. Second, circumcision is a personal religious or sanitary choice made by the parents in a controlled hospital setting. Female genital mutilation is not for the health of the women it is usually performed on children and teens with the intent of removing the chance of any sexual pleasure. How can you even compare the two. How can you try to make excuses for the “precious” men verbally and sexually assaulting women. I am disgusted. This article is so important and moving to me but thanks for making it all about men again.

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         1. I’m sorry, but can we just take a moment to appreciate how Eurocentric this comment is? And how poorly educated you are on the topic of female genital cutting? Mutilation is not the correct term, and the cutting ranges from the removal of the clitoral HOOD to full blown infibulation. Both female and male circumcision is wrong. You cannot say that female’s experience is worse, simply because it is more invasive. Yes, female genital cutting, especially the full infibulation is a testimony to the patriarchal societies in which some people live in. However, in the western world, FGC is not a topic that needs enormous attention.
            The quote “How can you try to make excuses for the “precious” men verbally and sexually assaulting women” is of extreme concern to me. Do you honestly think all men are rapists? That they all abuse women? Like the article says, they live in a different reality than we as women do. Many of them don’t even know they’re saying or doing offensive things. Even so, to imply that all men are abusive towards women is one of the most acine things I’ve ever read. YOU are the reason that many women don’t identify as feminist. This sort of militant response to men, who are honestly bringing up an important point just reveals your immaturity and lack of understanding of the fundamentals of feminism. While the comment didn’t have a place on this article, that is a conversation that should be had. It doesn’t matter that FGC comes from a place of oppression, and that male circumcision does not. What is important is that we’re allowing infants to be sliced in the name of aesthetics.
            As a feminist, you should also be fighting and advocating for men’s rights, rather than trying to diminish and devalue their experiences. Doesnt that approach sound familiar? Wasn’t that experience awful? Why would you want to inflict oppression on another group of people?

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            1. also many women wont sleep with you if your mother didn’t let someone chop a portion of your penis off when you were little.

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               1. Women have preferences?!? Oh no! Misandry! Can we get back on topic, please?

               2. When women don’t want to fuck you, it’s preference. When men don’t want to fuck you, it’s misogyny. Interesting.

     11. Move to Canada – we have the choice to circumcise our baby boys or not. It is not a mandatory procedure unless there is a problem that would put the baby at risk

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         1. It isn’t mandatory in the USA either. Parent’s get to decide.

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     12. Don’t even entertain this guy. There are valid male issues but a post on female issues is not the place to talk about them. I know some of you ladies want to offer him a bone and express that you sympathize with men who are upset over being circumcised, but don’t think the favor will be reciprocated if you brought up women’s issues in response to a men’s issues post. You would just be subjected to hostilities.

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     13. How NOT surprisingly cliche, and BEYOND ironic, that your first fing response to this article is to disregard it entirely and flip the whole thing over to your poor LITTLE wee wee. PATHETIC, typical, narcissist mansplaining yet the F again.

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         1. when “making a comment while being a man” became “mansplaining” and therefore offensive. let me be clear, this guy is being stupid, but he’s not “mansplaining” because that’s a bullshit made up word that doesn’t mean anything.

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            1. You obviously haven’t been the victim of a less well-informed man talking down to you as if you are ignorant on a subject you understand way better than he does. This is a practice I have experienced much of my life, and at 64, I’m glad a word has finally been created to describe the phenomenon. If you don’t like “mansplaining” tell it to the dictionary creators.

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               1. lol what ? a victim to someone’s less informed than you SPEAKING ???
                  1. it happens to everyone who knows something.
                  2. when it happens, no, you are not a victim. because knowledge is POWER here. so no, not a victim.

     14. I have no interest in dismissing this post because it is awesome and the subtle regular de-escalation is essential in tracking and transforming the bigger issue. However, I want re-iterate the importance of the comment about male circumcision. In the U.S. it is primarily performed in hospitals shortly after birth (already a big trauma for almost all babies) and it is quite painful for boys and this experience is solidly placed in pre-verbal psyche of a boy who will one day become a man. It sends the message that my body doesn’t belong to me, that you can invade my space and cut a part of my body off that nature decided was necessary and I don’t have choice in the matter. (Sound familiar to women?)

         We also know that men with foreskin need less speed and less intense thrusts to experience the same amount of pleasure on the glans because of the experience of the layer of foreskin rubbing. This leads to more connected sex that is more attuned to the rhythms of a vagina (if that is what we’re after).

         Now what is most misunderstood in our a psychologically and somatically immature culture and society is that pre-verbal experiences are totally running the show. By the time boys are born they have already learned what their mother feels like when having sex, from conception they already know the energy of their father’s pursuit, foreplay and drive for sex. Many don’t want to think about this or even consider it, but we are creatures of imprints. And our consciousness and body is listening from the beginning.

         The next time a man commits an act of violence subtle or not subtle, understand that this violence exists in the man. He was violated at some point or learned violation and aggression from within. This does not forgive or make anything okay, but perhaps creates a little space in your psyche to know none of us have it right. Most of the time when are feeling something seemingly caused by another it is because they know the experience inside themselves and have just passed it along because they can’t be with it or it has been imprinted on them.

         And I know first hand as a man, that it sucks to perpetuate violence of any form. When I unconsciously do so, I am not left feeling more connected or at peace. In fact, instead I feel shame or more isolated or worse off.

         We all need more opportunities to come together to heal these dynamics.

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         1. I really don’t understand why this post is getting so much hate. Everything you’ve said is 100% correct. Ty for being a feminist in the truest definition of the word

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            1. I think this drifter has been drifting too long and is a victim of her generation without context. I’m sure this blog would be relevant in 1951. But the internet was not around. If my boss patted me on the ass I would feel like I’m part of the team! Seriously, if a man your father’s age is looking at 13 year old pointers, he has real problems. And if a man whistles at you are says you should be at home in the kitchen or any other derogatory term im sure he’s either older than your grandparents, or mentally ill.
               Seriously, there’s too many pandering people out in our world believing every woman does this stuff. My wife does not because she confident, and knows that not everything in our world is puppy dogs unicorns and dandelions. Again context, stop and think about it, are the men your age doing these thing? I mean really doing these things? Or are feminist just misandry and hating all the time because every feminist I have met seem so depressed and unhappy. Please take happy pills or something but please drift back into reality. We live in society not a group of individuals, this all sounds so personal and individual, did your boss smack your ass the other day?

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               1. I do not consider myself a feminist but I do wear a fake wedding ring because honestly all of the things she listed, cat calling, having someone call me a bitch because I turned them down on the street, etc. all of these things happen to me on a regular basis. I did learn at a young age how to quickly deflate the situation and I do not feel the need to tell my friends or boyfriend everytime a guy on the street follows me until he realises I’m not giving him my number. I did notice that I will walk down the same street with my boyfriend and absolutely none of those same men will even look at me. So no this isn’t the 50’s, men are not openly harassing women anymore and no none of these actions have ever lead to rape or anything dangerous for me because I learned how to handle the situation at a young age but yes everything single thing she listed I have personally experienced and experience on a daily basis. Could possibly be a city thing, I’m not sure.

               2. Well maybe this stuff is more prevalent in the city, I would not know I live in the Country,lets face it a man who follows you is creepy. I have nver followed a woman, or cat called, these men must be low life street creepers. I’m sure a male coworker does not do these things at work? Interesting, who teaches these coping mechanisms at your young age. I mean does your mother teach these things, a school teacher a peer a mentor? My wife said she never learned any of this stuff at any age, she said she just recognizes there are creeps, and normal people, avoid the creeps, Or…. Is it what society teaches you. There’s another way to deal…. Give it back, if a man whistles or cat calls, elevator eyes, or stairs at your breast, do the same to him!
                  See a bulg in his pants whistle or stare at it. Like his tight jeans, and tight ass whistle, or follow him and ask him for his number. Many men are intimidated by hot women, and many hot woman come off snooty and stuck up. I’ve been a victim of this many time, but I figure that’s how it is. I am married I have no wedding band and neither does my wife. We have no need, she has never been hit on or treated the way described here. I asked her if she is scared of me and other men, afraid to anger us… She said LoL, hahah, ok….
                  I think many men who act the way you say have real self esteem issues, mental illness, or father figure issues. I do believe that when boys grow up, they need a father to teach them how to treat people, not just women, but people, this is a bigger problem in our society, kids learn more how to treat people through social gossip (media).. And YouTube.

         2. deep understanding. i know what you say is truth. i feel it too.

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     15. God…I knew someone like you would show up and post crap. Why must you always be waiting in the wings to jump on your soapbox and force people to listen to you drone on and on and on about something completely off-topic.

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     16. Seriously.shut.the.fuck.up.

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         1. such violence. such censorship.

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     17. Are you aware of female genital mutilation? Do you know what they do to a young girl’s body to control her sexuality and make her afraid of having sex? Do you have any concept of the diseases, pain, fear and scarring? Did you know that this is still being down in the USA underground not to mention a plethora of other countries?

         If you want to discuss genital mutilation, what about what has been done to middle sex people and its effect on their identity and ability to feel sexual pleasure? That this is still being done?

         Male circumcision, although debatable usually does not negate sexual pleasure or cause any ongoing issues unlike the built in issues of FGM and atrocities done to the middle sex community.

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     18. Sexism exists against males as well but that was not the point of the article.

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     19. ummm, yeah I think calling circumcision an atrocity is a little dramatic, Im circumcised and as a male, Im glad my parents made that decision. I like my penis the way it is, and not looking like a mushroom wrapped in turtle neck.

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         1. It’s good that you’re OK with the way your penis looks.. I think the point is that it wasn’t your choice to make it that way, and you evidently wouldn’t like it if it HAD to look like a mushroom in a turtle neck.

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     20. This happens every time! A man answers and has to mention genitals.

         Why the hell can’t you read what she wrote about, the beautiful difference between sexes. She asked real men to stand up and be real men, by deffending womens honour in all aspects of life.
         As a woman I read her article and wish for her to write Another, telling all real men that real women celebrate the difference between men and women but we all want to be spared from men who Think they are the owners of our bodies.

         Reply

         1. I can’t believe you just said that … “be real men”… How wrong would it be if a man said “be a real woman”?.. because it certainly wouldn’t be taken in the way the second paragraph describes

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     21. I couldn’t agree more – circumcision is archaic and ridiculous, but you’re missing a few fundamental points here. FGM is illegal because it is on a completely different scale to male circumcision – although it varies, the main point of FGM is to destroy sexual function and enjoyment. That’s not the supposed point of circumcision, nor are the same in terms of injury and recovery, the two cannot be easily compared. Secondly, male circumcision doesn’t occur because women want it – it is not a decision women have taken to mutilate baby boys. It came from the (male) heads of religion and medicine and for some reason in some countries it has spread. Here in the UK, very few boys are circumcised, only those with medical need or some religious groups. It is not sexism, it’s not discriminating against men and favouring women who are on equal grounds – there isn’t a female equivalent, FGM is absolutely not one. Circumcision shouldn’t happen, but it’s not proof of sexism against men, but rather the unwillingness of America to follow science rather than tradition.

         I have to ask – do you really want to be that guy who turns up to a discussion about important social issues and says “what about my problems”? It’s like turning up to a meeting to discuss the abolition of slavery and being the guy that says “but us white people have problems too!”. It’s just not appropriate and makes you look ridiculous. Do you honestly feel that men are so oppressed that you need to take the focus away from the discussion of others to assert how important your problems are? Don’t you see that this is precisely the kind of privilege and dominance that we are talking about? The subject moves away from the needs and desires of men for a second on to the needs of women, and some deeply insecure men have to bring it back to men immediately, they just can’t let it happen. That says a lot about a person. Are there rare situations where men face inequality? Sure, and look how hard that is for some men to bear – when they discover a way that men are even slightly unequal, they’ll kick up a huge storm over it and try to derail conversations about female rights. Imagine being unequal in almost every aspect of life – then understand how ridiculous it is to scream about your short list of inequalities while the other group try to discuss theirs. If you want to discuss men’s rights, there are many corners of the internet in which you can do that (remarkably many, given that society is focussed on maintaining the rights of men in almost every situation). This article makes a valid point that should be discussed, but you feel the need to change the subject. You might want to think about why that is.

         As for the man below who implies that men rape and beat women because of the trauma of circumcision, what absolute nonsense. It’s not like we have significantly fewer incidents of violence against women in England because fewer men are circumcised – it’s a ridiculous argument. The reason that some men assault women is the same reason they do most things: because they can and because, if they choose to, there’s only a certain amount we can do about it. This brings us neatly back to the point of this article.

         Circumcision should not be done routinely to every boy, and personally I would ban it for everything other than medical reasons or adult choice, but that’s a debate for another day. In the right forum, I will support that point of view and fight alongside the rights of men to not be physically harmed before they even know what’s happening. However, this is not that forum, and your need to make it one is very telling about your views and nature.

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     22. YES BUT BUT BUT THIS OTHER THING THAT HAPPENS isn’t a counterargument. Yeah, circumcision (both kinds) is really fucking backward. Go write a blog about it, or petition your lawmakers, or whatever you think will make the most difference (for my money, this would be talking to the expecting parents you know.)

         The title of this post isn’t “Given that there’s a limited about we can care about anything, let’s decide which kind of sexism is most important below.” So, y’know, don’t do that. Basic.

         Reply

275. I can’t help but want to point out that it’s not fully a reflection on sexism that women are catcalled, looked at, groped or mistreated. None of those and more are reserved for women. Just as female prostitutes have a male client base, so do male prostitutes. Do you see what I’m getting at? Men are actually preyed upon by men. Big, scary men who they are even more afraid to call out on it than we are because men are expected to hold their own or never be in that situation. I was groped in a public place once by a freakishly huge dude. I told my friends to watch out for him because I wished I had gotten him thrown out (I was a little caught of guard when it happened, much like the first time someone tried to take my purse, I was more focused on dealing with the issue at hand than preventing a future attack.) Well, apparently it was old news because three of the guys in my group of friends that evening had previously had that guy reach into their pants and grab their junk. Which of course made me REALLY wish I had gotten him thrown out, because predators are predators, but no one is more embarrassed to admit it than their male victims. I never had anyone do any worse than call me doll or sweetheart while I waitressed, which doesn’t bother me, but what really threw me off one night, in a large and busy restaurant, was a table of men catcalling my male coworker (in a really rank and dirty way btw), who just took it. I told the management, which was all male, and they came and hovered and heard it for themselves and did nothing. In scenarios like that, the restaurant has to protect it’s employee if the employee asks, because there is harassment involved. But the poor guy just kept his mouth shut with eyes wide. For every girl who has told me that her boss crowded her and tried to sexually pressure her, I have a story from a guy whose boss did the same. So is sexual harassment a type of sexism, sure – if the reason it’s done is purely in order to fulfill a social expectation, as when men sexually harass women in order to look more masculine to the people they deem their peers, but when it’s done because someone is a predator, it could be caused by a wider range of sexual issues. Likewise, when women “de-escalate” it could be considered a symptom of a sexist culture if the woman is doing it because she fears for her social standing, but if she’s doing it because it’s an effective style of self-preservation, then once again, it pertains to broader sexual issues, for example, women being aware that they are weaker or smaller than the average man doesn’t point to sexism, it points to physical awareness.

     Reply

     1. Which really just underpins the point that there are a lot of men who feel entitled to oppress, sexualise and intimidate people because they can.

        We need to start asking how to address this sense of male entitlement and minimise the violence and intimidation these sorts of men inflict on others. And maybe men who are victims of other men, need to start penning their own posts to raise awareness. To let other men who have been victimised know they are not alone. That it’s OK to speak out without fear of ridicule.

        As women, we can only share our own experiences. As men, you need to do the same. Start changing the dialogue and the responses by encouraging other men to share their experiences and to support them when they do.

        Above all, we need to unite against these predators, regardless of our gender.

        Reply

        1. It’s not male entitlement. It’s aggression. And if we have learned one thing from the history of psychology it’s that aggression thrives on fear.

           Yes, there is a small handful of sociopaths in leading positions. Thanks to the inherent slowness of organizational and societal changes most of them happen to be white men. That doesn’t mean white men are inherently predisposed to be this way or that it’s a white male (or even white het-cis-male) problem.

           By calling it male entitlement you’re trivialising the underlying issues that manifest themselves in these structures. You’re lashing out against other victims on the false pretense that just because you can “other” them they’re “against you”.

           Many vocal feminists like to pretend that the moral high ground their history of victimhood grants women is inherent in their gender. That is the same sexist bullshit feminism has tried to eradicate for the past century. There’s nothing inherently male in oppressing and intimidating others. It’s just that these same vocal feminists pin female-on-female aggression on “internalized misogyny” (and therefore, again, on men).

           I agree that we need to unite against bullies. But we need to learn that we can not do so by resorting to bullying as well. And we can’t make the mistake of gendering or ethnicising this kind of behaviour. It’s a human problem. We need to think of ourselves as humans to fix it.

           To satisfy Godwin: to defeat Nazism after WW2 it wasn’t sufficient to call out the harmfulness of the ideology, we actually had to eliminate the factors that allowed the ideology to gain support. Because as we’ve seen in the last decades (most recently in Greece after the Eurozone crisis) a recurrence of the factors can cause a relapse of the ideology.

           Reply

           1. Call it entitlement, call it aggression. The outcomes are much the same. The fact is the vast majority of violent crime around the world (75%-90% depending on the country) is committed by men. Not just white, men. Not just rich men. But men. Most violence perpetrated against men is by other men. That’s not a feminist stereotype. That is fact supported by law enforcement agencies globally.

              Nobody is suggesting this is true of ALL men. Or even MOST men. But the numbers are what they are. Just because a women points it out, doesn’t make it feminist propaganda, but it does remain inherently a male orientated issue.

              If men don’t like those numbers, then they need to start working together to improve them.

              Meanwhile, I’m really not sure how you determined that I was advocating bullying from my response. Calling it out for what it is, is not bullying. If men are also suffering at the hands of other men, then they need to create an environment where they feel safe to talk about it and stand against it. Simply “enduring” isn’t going to change things (and isn’t that the point you were alluding to in your last paragraph?).

              Reply

              1. “The fact is the vast majority of violent crime around the world (75%-90% depending on the country) is committed by men.”

                 It’d help if you provided a source for this claim, considering you’re claiming it’s a statistic.

              2. Source – Statistics Canada:

                 In general, women most often reported being victimized by men regardless of crime type, and this was the case as well for male victims. Men were considered the accused in 81% of cases of violent victimization against women, and in 79% of cases of violent victimization against males; whereas females accounted for 10% of victimizations against females and 10% against males. These findings are supported by results from other studies in the United States, where the majority of perpetrators that came to the attention of the criminal justice system were men (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006; Heimer and Lauritsen, 2008; U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).

                 http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm

                 Source – US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health:

                 Although women comprise more than half the U.S. population, they committed only 14.7% of the homicides noted during the study interval.

                 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092

                 Source – Victoria Police Australia:

                 Shown in Figure 18, 18-24 year olds continue to represent a large proportion of offenders (24.9%) in
                 2013/14, followed by 25-29 year olds with 16.1% of total alleged offenders. Males in the 18-24 age group are significantly over-represented, comprising of 81.5% of offenders in this age group, and 20.3% of all offenders overall.

                 [Of the 219,796 offences commited in Victoria in 2013/2014, 177,215 were by males (81%), 42,109 by females (19%)

                 http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?a=internetBridgingPage&Media_ID=72176

                 Source – FBI 2014 Crime in the United States:

                 More than 73 percent (73.3) of the persons arrested in the nation during 2014 were males. They accounted for 79.8 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 61.8 percent of persons arrested for property crime. (See Table 42.)

                 https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/persons-arrested/main

                 Source – Men, Masculinities and Poverty in the UK:

                 Undoubtedly, men commit more crimes of all types than women, and overall, more serious and violent crimes. This gulf has been consistent over time, and is repeated in the statistics of other countries.

                 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=V_kyuA2dKtwC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=violent+crime+offender+statistics+by+gender+UK&source=bl&ots=DHaaqv3Wz3&sig=SqDGsthsxLgScNRnj72Es68GQFU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizyeGG5qrJAhUBqKYKHd7eDEMQ6AEIazAM#v=onepage&q=violent%20crime%20offender%20statistics%20by%20gender%20UK&f=false

              3. OK.. I’ve tried a couple of times to post links to supporting data including the FBI, Victoria Police, Statistics Canada and others, but for some reason the post is not showing up (may be a moderation issue due to multiple links, so the post may appear later).

                 Here are excerpts from their reports and studies sans the links.

                 Source – Statistics Canada:

                 In general, women most often reported being victimized by men regardless of crime type, and this was the case as well for male victims. Men were considered the accused in 81% of cases of violent victimization against women, and in 79% of cases of violent victimization against males; whereas females accounted for 10% of victimizations against females and 10% against males. These findings are supported by results from other studies in the United States, where the majority of perpetrators that came to the attention of the criminal justice system were men (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2006; Heimer and Lauritsen, 2008; U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).

                 Source – US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health:

                 Although women comprise more than half the U.S. population, they committed only 14.7% of the homicides noted during the study interval.

                 Source – Victoria Police Australia:

                 Shown in Figure 18, 18-24 year olds continue to represent a large proportion of offenders (24.9%) in
                 2013/14, followed by 25-29 year olds with 16.1% of total alleged offenders. Males in the 18-24 age group are significantly over-represented, comprising of 81.5% of offenders in this age group, and 20.3% of all offenders overall.

                 [Of the 219,796 offences commited in Victoria in 2013/2014, 177,215 were by males (81%), 42,109 by females (19%)

                 Source – FBI 2014 Crime in the United States:

                 More than 73 percent (73.3) of the persons arrested in the nation during 2014 were males. They accounted for 79.8 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 61.8 percent of persons arrested for property crime. (See Table 42.)

                 Source – Men, Masculinities and Poverty in the UK:

                 Undoubtedly, men commit more crimes of all types than women, and overall, more serious and violent crimes. This gulf has been consistent over time, and is repeated in the statistics of other countries.

              4. I think those numbers are a little exaggerated… For the same crime, I’m reasonably certain women are less likely to be arrested than men… Just like crying doesn’t get a man out of a speeding ticket.

              5. Reported crime… how many times is man going to report being assaulted bye a female?

              6. Not just that. Since most statistics define rape as an act involving being penetrated, men can’t be raped by women having sex with them against their will. Once you remove that distinction, rape and sexual abuse suddenly becomes less of a gender issue and more of a universal issue.

                 But even then the “1 in 4 women” stat isn’t supported by any actual evidence. The original source for the ridiculous number that claim is based on included such acts as “sex while drunk” (with no regard for the level of intoxication or whether the partner was equally drunk — because sex with drunk women is always rape but drunk men are fully capable of consent) and various other things.

                 If the “1 in 4” statistic were accurate, the US would be a more dangerous place for women than some backwater ghetto in Africa during a civil war.

              7. also if you’re a man and you immobilize a woman trying to hit you, there are chances she files i case against you for violence. how twisted is that. i have heard this story more than once from people i know (and believe, due to the type and character of the women they were with. one of whom has also been violent towards me in the past. there are some really mean women out there… and they have justice on their side sadly.)

              8. So what about crimes reported by men where they’ve been assaulted by other men? The data also shows the majority of homicides involving male victims are perpetrated by other men. And if you’re trying to restrain a woman from hitting you, why does she feel the need to hit you? Is it because she feels threatened?

                 In regard to sexual assaults by females, there is no doubt this occurs, but again, the offenders are still overwhelmingly weighted toward men. It was also not uncommon for assaults committed by women to involve male coercion.

                 Source – Australian Centre for the Study of Sexual Assault:

                  The most recent Australian data on female sex offences based on official court records indicates that women committed up to 1.6% (or 45 out of 2,875) of all sexual offences in the period 2011–12 (ABS, 2013, Table 7).

                  The 2001 National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS), a source of crime reporting for the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) in the United States, reported that female sex offenders made up 3.1% of all sex offenders (Vandiver, 2006).

                  Vess (2011) reported that between 1.2% and 8% of all people charged with sex offences in the US, UK and Canada were women. These rates were based on official sources of data (e.g., arrest rates). The rates for “those convicted of sexual assaults against children” that were female were between 1.5% and 4% of all child abuse convictions (Vess, 2011, p. 81).

                  Figures based on 12,268 calls to a children’s confidential helpline in the United Kingdom indicated that female sex offenders made up 17% of perpetrators reported by children (Elliott & Ashfield, 2011). Caution must be exercised in reporting this figure however, as the study is not a nationally representative prevalence figure.

                  Dube et al. (2005) conducted a study into the adverse life effects for those with a history of child sexual abuse victimisation. The survey had 17,337 participants (7,970 male, 9,367 female). The population came from the Kaiser Permanent’s Health Appraisal Centre in San Diego, US. The tool used was the Adverse Childhood Experiences survey. Findings indicated:

                 — 1,276 males had experienced childhood sexual abuse (intercourse and non-intercourse).

                 Of those, just under 21% had been abused by a lone female perpetrator and just over 18% by both male and female perpetrators; and

                 — 2,310 females were victims of child sexual abuse. Of those, just over 2% had been abused by a lone female perpetrator and 3.6% by both male and female perpetrators.

                 Conclusion
                 Female sex offenders do not comfortably fit into the conceptual frameworks used to understand male sex offenders. This Research Summary has revealed that prevalence figures for female sex offending, although possibly an underestimation due to underreporting, are that females make up just under 5% of offenders (Cortoni & Hanson, 2005).

                 This does not challenge the theory that sexual violence is a gendered crime, however it does pose a challenge in how to understand female sexual offending. Although many female sex offenders co-offend with male perpetrators, there exist a measure of women who are solo sexual offenders against children, adolescents, and adults.

                 It is important to recognise the types of sexual abuse rather than to diminish them because they do not fit with the binary of male offender, female victim. This does not contradict our knowledge that the binary of male offender, female victim is by far the most prevalent form of sexual abuse and assault (ABS, 1996, 2006).

              9. ”And if you’re trying to restrain a woman from hitting you, why does she feel the need to hit you? Is it because she feels threatened?”

                 are you victim blaming there ????? o_O

              10. That’s a fair comment and probably relevant to some situations. But given the data shows violent offences (forced intercourse, murder, broken bones, etc.) – especially in domestic situations – is overwhelmingly committed by men against female victims (and yes, violence occurs in same gender relationships – but we’re talking mainstream here), it’s not unfair to assume that in *most* cases a woman striking out is probably a defensive strategy.

                  Yes, there will be exceptions, but trying to resolve exceptions while ignoring the mainstream is kind of pointless.

                  However, it’s sad that anyone – male or female – would find themselves in a relationship where violence is the answer to discord. It will be interesting to see if things improve (for everyone) now schools are starting to educate about bullying.

              11. “Reported crime… how many times is man going to report being assaulted bye a female?”

                  Someone else on this page made the comment “if you don’t report it, why should you expect it to stop?” Clearly there are lots of reasons abuse isn’t reported – men and women can both feel ashamed or somehow responsible.. or question whether the assault was in fact something reportable or “that bad”.

                  However, men need to start discussing these issues to break down the barriers to reporting. Instead of chiding each other for being a “pussy” for being abused by a women, how about showing each other that you can safely discuss these things without being ridiculed. This is something that only men can really change for themselves.

           2. Agreed!

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        2. I’ve had girls grope me and when i politely turn them down they get there larger male friends to kick my ass lol.. its not “MEN” Its stupid douchbag people.

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276. I knew, deep down I’ve always known woman de-escalate.

     Perhaps it’s a sick ignorance that I’ve accepted the behaviour. perhaps we men also in some way have just normalized what we know is wrong.

     I’ve done it, I’ve played my part in dressing up my desperations my wants onto friends who have no interest in being sexually pursued. And In some uncomfortable way I knew it was selfish. that I was weak.

     It’s so often there, I can recall many interactions with my female friends that follow some form of de-escalator nature, avoiding some intent from a man, both friend or stranger. And I’ve noticed such intents only when it suited me, when I felt protective of a girl I saw right through men and their intentions.

     I’ve been ignorant of its frequency even though, Pondering this thought, It seems it occurs way more often in girls lives than I’ve admittedly given notice.

     Many a time have I felt regretting my persona, usually in environments that I seek acceptance or control, I know my behaviour was below me when I reflect on it, weird, and gives me often a gross feeling when I think of myself. like I’ve let myself down.

     I’m now 22, and have had a massive social break, I’ve not wanted or pursued sex for months, and remain not needing it. I feel content without a partner, and now more than ever I can be myself around my friends and It’s made me more aware of this gross manipulating charisma often played upon woman in an attempt to convey good intentions when ultimately men are in most cases trying at some degree or another to fool woman into filling their fantasies about themselves.

     I feel weird and embarrassed by the person I’ve been. You’re right, we don’t know just how often you girls deal with this behaviour, It’s almost like we think we’re the best at it, and all other men cannot do it as good as ourselves.

     Yet all you experience is countless men perpetrating some form of acting nice, or flirty or just plain dirty, with an attitude that “it’s all just a bit of fun”.

     I’m glad I read this article. Glad because, I’ve respected the issue with better self awareness. My intent was never to be a monster, and most men will feel the same. But I know I’ve been an example of what I thought to be uncommon, yet logically know It’s always their for woman. and for that we must come across so much more
     dangerous then we perceive.

     Can I in the midst of sexual desire respect another and their interests before my own? I like to think I can. can I do so with a self assurance and self respect that I avoid losing self respect even without getting my way? I should be able too.

     I hope theirs more awareness to it. It should hopefully make men more deserving characters of what we ultimately very wrongly are trying to be

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     1. Thank you for this and for sharing your thoughts and your honesty. I, as a woman, and I’m sure I speak for all women, really appreciate it.

        To answer your (maybe rhetorical) question of whether or not you can respect another person and their interests when you’re in the midst of sexual desire: I think one of the main myths that is still pervasive in our society is that women aren’t very sexual, and aren’t interested in sex. That’s not true at all. But we don’t want to feel like you’re manipulating us. Different women have different approaches to sex. Some will ONLY do it when they feel love and respect in the confines of a committed exclusive relationship; others are more open about having casual sex or even one night stands. But at the end of the day, we have to WANT to have sex with you and be ATTRACTED to you to do it. And no amount of manipulation will truly make us attracted to you or want it with you. yes, it make wear down our defense and we will relent. You might make us feel ashamed and think we are prudes, and therefore go for it. Or you might shame us in thinking that you deserve sex because we were too flirty or whatever. But even if you do get a woman to have sex with you through those means, it will never be 100% pleasurable for her or what she truly wants to do. Being honest, open, and vulnerable is truly attractive. If you want a woman to truly want to have sex with you, you have to be truly yourself, no games or manipulations. Not everyone will be attracted to you. But then again, I am sure not every woman you have approached with manipulation agreed to have sex with you, either. Being vulnerable for a man does not mean to be “weak” or “overly emotional” or “needy.” It means being true to yourself and not feeling like you have to put on some “cool” “charm” aura. The games and the facade may fool girls and very young women (18-23ish), but trust me, most of use beyond that can see right through it. AND – if we feel like it, we may even use it against you to make you think you’re getting somewhere with us, when in the end you won’t. Vulnerability for men is the ability to not hide your flaws or hide behind your masks – because you are MAN ENOUGH to put yourself out there – as supposedly “imperfect” as you may think you are – and be confident. There was an article written by a male dating coach about how vulnerability will actually increase your success with women, but I can’t find it now. But trust me, a guy who is always putting on some sort of facade is NOT attractive and is in fact annoying and advertises to me that is insecure (and can’t admit to it or own – everyone has insecurities but it’s how you deal with them), flakey, and can’t rise to the occasion – all very un-masculine and unattractive qualities in a man. Like this article discusses, the encounters with men who put on some weird facade and try to have sex with us DO NOT impress us AT ALL, and even if we did end up sleeping with those men, a bad taste always lingers.

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        1. please don’t be so sure you speak for all women. please refrain your speaking for yourself, in your name, etc. no one appointed you te be the speaker in the name of all women. all women can speak for themselves. and if some of them can’t, it’s a better option to help them find their voice than to try and speak in their place.
           i hope you understand this.

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     2. Wow.. thanks for being so honest Ryan. And at 22, you’re actually showing a lot of insight and self-awareness for one so young. You should really be proud of that.

        And we also know most guys are decent. Some act like entitled prats because that’s the behaviour that is modelled for them, and sometimes it just takes enough life experience to figure it out it’s not OK. It doesn’t make them a monster… it makes them misguided. Which is why sometimes instead of jumping down your throats and making you feel like assholes, we instead try a more subtle approach hoping you’ll “get” it, without humiliating you in the process.

        But sadly there are still too many guys who feel the need to belittle and dehumanise others is their right. They know it’s shitty and just don’t care. These are the ones who make it hard for women to completely let their guards down around guys they don’t know and trust extremely well, and make it harder for the decent guys.

        And that’s why it’s so important for men to understand how pervasive this behaviour is. So if they do see it, they also call it out. So if their friends, or work colleagues or female acquaintances seem to “overreact” to a comment or gesture, they understand why and don’t minimise it.

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     3. Well said Ryan

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     4. This blog and discussion is not an exploration of our sexuality per se, but, Ryan, since you’ve seemingly gone to the trouble of taking a break from dating/being with a woman due to discomfort with your way of being/experiencing that relationship, I just wanted to say a word about the wonderful gift of sexuality we have. I have always found a deep emotional connection between two people – not just a romantic connection but the more full one when you really are (more or less) soul mates takes sex beyond the limits of just a physical relationship to a high plane of love and joy. Hence ‘making love’. (And it affects the physical experience to the point where it is wonderful far beyond the one without connection.) Really loving someone, having your arms around them and wanting to give to them, give love and pleasure, as well as having your own ‘needs’ met, is an awesome experience. My suggestion would be to allow someone you care about that much into your life (not to search or force it but to let it happen when it does) will give you the chance to experience love and also sexual pleasure far beyond the realm of what we experience by just being with someone we’re attracted to or in the even lower form, which is what I see discussed here mostly, ‘wanting to get some.’ We ALL have a higher spiritual nature and it is impossible to connect to it and experience it when we are acting purely out of a lower plane of consciousness. It infuses all our moments and relationships, but the one of sexuality is absolutely transforming. And on a lesser scale, it’s possible to be with any person at any moment with a sense of awe, respect, and giving to the point that higher spirit takes over.

        And to join the wider discussion here, the fact that the aggression, bullying and disrespect to others discussed here keeps each, both the perpetrator and the ‘victim’ from knowing their own higher nature fully, I believe is very important. We are led around by the nose by our sexuality until we center ourselves in our higher nature, and our surroundings, past training, and society’s exploitation itself takes advantage of our susceptibility to manipulate us. The real victims are all of us, as Ryan points out, when anyone, man or woman, acts in a bullying aggressive way it feels horrible and is a smear on one’s soul. And we carry that with us. It is possible to get beyond it, but we need to connect to our higher nature (and for those who believe in some form of higher power that is a good route to take) to get free of all that and be with others as we were meant to be, in love and mutual respect. If you are a mother (or father) who cares about your son, raise him to know himself and his own higher nature. If you meet someone who is angry and hurting, interact with him by reaching out to his higher nature. Not all will awaken but there is a better chance that way. Anger does not heal. Love heals.

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     5. it’s good you see through man’s manipulative games 🙂
        do you see women’s manipulative game also ? i hope you do.

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277. I’m just dropping in to leave a general comment. I typically answer every comment on my blog but that’s physically impossible with this many. There’s a few things I wanted to say after reading all of the comments:

     * I wrote this post because it is something that occurred to me recently and I thought other women would be able to relate.

     * I also wrote it because I realized *most* men were unaware of how prevalent it is. That’s because *most* men are good guys who don’t engage in this type of behavior and you likely don’t witness it since it doesn’t happen when we’re with other men.

     * I never said men don’t have fears or have some similar scenarios or have their own struggles within our culture. What I was trying to illustrate is how pervasive it is for women.

     * Just because you have to be on guard walking at night, don’t equate that with the fears women have in broad daylight or on the train or in the work place. The fact that rape and sexual assault happens to 1 in 4 women (which is of course likely a low estimate given how many go unreported). We’d be fools to not carry that knowledge and be somewhat on guard.

     *Speaking about these things doesn’t make us victims. Speaking about it in hopes to improve things and make things better for our daughters AND our sons is brave. (it seems to me the women commenting here are the furthest thing from victims)

     * Improving the way our culture is in this respect will benefit boys and men as well. Would you not, guys, prefer that we can interact with you (even if we don’t know you) without fear? Without trepidation? Wouldn’t we all be better off if that were the case?

     Last, thank you to everyone commenting. While a handful have had me banging my head against the desk, most of your comments have been insightful and thoughtful and nothing short of amazing.

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     1. Well, I tell ya what. I got a black eye after posting my naive comments. I had no idea it was so prevalent. Don’t live in the big city, and don’t frequent the streets or bars so I was rather taken back after suggesting a modest mode of dress would help things left me accosted through a never ending litany of hateful remarks.

        My sincerest apologies to any woman I offended. Truthfully, I was just offering something I thought would help women, and in no way meant to blame women for untoward behavior of men, or excuse men for doing so.

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        1. Thank you for this. You know, there have been so many times that women have been blamed for how they dressed and it’s been used as an excuse for rape or assault. So when we hear someone say it we get pretty fired up. I understand your advice was coming from a place of practicality, unfortunately it’s been used as a way of shaming women who have been attacked. I appreciate you making this comment.

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        2. Your apology is genuinely appreciated Pal’s Pen. And it would be nice to think that simply changing an outfit would prevent the unwanted attention and abuse that women receive.

           But sadly that is light years from reality (and why it was deemed so insulting, albeit well-intentioned).

           I really do hope your eyes have been opened and you’ve been able to reconsider your perspective. And I hope that should you see or hear other men degrading women, or objectifying them, that you speak up and tell them it’s not OK.

           I hope this posts provides greater understanding to the issues, because understanding a problem is the first step toward resolving it.

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           1. What’s further frustrating about such simple advice is the assumption that we haven’t already heard/thought of/tried it. Trust me when I say that nothing I do, say, or wear protects me from this obnoxious predatory behavior. Literally the only time I feel 100% safe from harassment is when I’m sitting on my couch, reading a book or watching tv with no means of communication open. When I leave the house or go onto the internet, it seems that there is always the possibility of harassment. And that’s not me being a victim, it’s me being aware because my experience tells me it’s not only possible, but likely.

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        3. I appreciate this apology so much. I’m happy that this post and the comments section has shed some light on the situation for women. I always get so worked up when I see a post that I feel genuinely resonates with something I can relate to, something that I feel will convince nay sayers that there is a problem, and only see that the tables get turned in the comments section. I usually don’t comment on these kinds of posts because a lot of the times it leads to comment wars where there’s no way of convincing someone. At least this time there’s been a change of heart on the subject.

           On the note of this article, I can’t tell you how many times while walking home at night, I’ve actually had my phone out with the dial ready to call either 911, my boyfriend’s, or close friend’s number. I’ve also had cases where I’d grip onto my keys or a pen ready for defense because I noticed someone had been walking with me for more than a block or 2. Just even having the thought of “what do I have on me that I can use as a weapon if I need to..” Or even in cases if I noticed a group of men being rowdy and gathered in front of a building, I’d cross the street just so I don’t have to interact with them. These are some of those avoidance behaviors. They exist and it’s kind of sad that I know that other women will do these kinds of things as well.

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278. Stunning read….sad…realistic…and stunning.

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279. Time for men to wake up and learn to be responsible for their decisions and impulses! No person anywhere should live with this kind of fear. Its ridiculous and reflects poorly on men capable of being better.

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280. Thank you for putting into words many things that I have thought over the years.

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281. This. This was so perfectly said. This is how I feel everyday walking down the street. I can’t walk the five minutes from the train to work without something vulgar about me being said straight into my face. People tell me not to stand up for myself because it’s unsafe, or they tell me to just brush it off and let it go because people are people. So much of what I feel was so perfectly expressed in what you said. This is a huge problem, and I am so glad to know other women out there feel the way I do and are working to bring awareness to this along with me.

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282. “Listen because the reality is that she or someone she knows personally has at some point been abused, assaulted, or raped.”

     It should be acknowledged that the ‘or’ in this sentence is frequently an ‘and’. “… she AND someone she knows…”

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283. started reading, then realized it was written by a women and therefore wasnt worth the time. am i right?

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284. The city you live in my be far away from mine… I lived in the city and worked various jobs for a good dozen years, and did all the things people in cities do… go to bars, movies, work, etc. I don’t think I’d need my toes to count the times I’ve heard a woman get catcalled. Yes, I’ve seen lots of other forms of abuse, and my roommate at the time was a prime example of how not to treat women, yet he *always* had a girlfriend (actually, usually more than one). He was the epitome of a vulgar asshole, and a large part of that is BECAUSE IT GOT HIM LAID.. (150 different sexual partners in the couple years I knew him.. he was rather public about this) All the things I couldn’t bring myself to do that he did, reinforced his behavior. MOST of the times he cheated and one or both women found out, they stuck around while the behavior continued.

     So now you have 2 problems.. one is an asshole that can’t be fixed, and a woman who can’t trust a guy anymore.. I won’t dwell on the incurable ass, So if 1 out of 100 guys are like this roommate of mine, there’s a very good chance that EVERY woman out there has had 2 encounters with this kind of asshole, and will thus project it onto the other 99 guys she hasn’t met. Of course there’s the flip side of the coin.. the money hungry cheating bitch yadda yadda yadda…

     So if there’s anything to be actually DONE about anything, if you find yourself in a relationship with an ass of this caliber, BREAK IT OFF, stop reinforcing the behavior you find offensive.. If you see the pattern that the “sexy bad boys” are all assholes, then perhaps change your prerequisites in the type of men you date…
     Back to the original problem of catcalling, this isn’t going to get fixed overnight.. it may take a generation or two even, but if you keep reinforcing the behavior it’ll NEVER change

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     1. Ryan, I am amazed at your self awareness and your honesty particularly because you are so young. Thank you!

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     2. Well said Bob the mechanic.

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285. In my book “Notes of a Retired Wedding Videographer” I mention the many times people/men would grab my breast, ass, crotch as I’m trying to get the shot the bride/groom paid me to captured. One of the many reasons I stopped doing it…mostly because of the crazy, mind F’ed brides though. haha As a woman in a male dominated field I have often been turned down for work & couldn’t follow my dream to be a DP because I am or was once, considered to cute to work with. Also the funds needed to join at that time were huge & I needed 2 or 3 mentors at that time. I only had one male who would sponsor me (there were only males at that time to have sponsor anyone) and eventually he backed down because of dirty minded people. There are still to few female DP’s in film & TV production, and the photos of the ones I can find, they dress like boys/men. I kept hoping someone would look at my work & not my sex. Think I’m finally there however I’m moving into social media, Producing, line producing. There are still dirty minded people who did wag their tongues till they heard us tell them off in many ways. Shared vision is shared vision. Business! I’m hopeful for the younger generations, yet hard to find a female DP of good/great quality because many still lack the confidence to give their passion a go. I’m sure they are also having to deal with dirty minded people wagging their false tongues. That kind of stuff can, will, does crush a girls/womans focus on work the work they are passionate about because we still want to find “the one” and maybe have kids in a union. Hard to do if your love for your work in a male dominate industry threatens your chances to find a good mate.

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286. Reblogged this on Palegg and commented:
     Just listen. And yes don’t assume that we’re exaggerating.

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287. Your article makes valid points, but the title is wrong. Not ALL women do this. Some of us don’t have big breasts and no one has ever stared at them. Some women never get the chance to turn down a dance or a date. Some women have never had their butts patted. Some women don’t feel confident enough to wear tight dresses. I agree that de-escalation is a problem, but lumping all women together is a problem too because it suggests that I am not a woman if this has never happened to me.

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     1. Why on gods green earth are you the only person to make this point? I feel like these bullshit articles are the root of the issue because they promote lumping and generalizing, which is the root of sexism.

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     2. Welp. I’m not sure how you managed to avoid these things but good on you. Just to confirm for you. I have done a lot of these things of avoidance and de-escalation and have been catcalled and stalked and so on. I will note that I don’t have big breasts or wear tight dresses or showy at all either. I don’t think I’ve been asked to dance(because I don’t go to clubs). But either way, it’s a good thing that these things don’t happen to you, but I don’t think that these posts are bad. Maybe the post title of “things all women do” does lump everyone together and that’s not great, but the content of the post is still valid for many.

        I’m sorry you’re offended, but I can’t see it as anything but a good thing that these things haven’t happened to you. I don’t think the OP was suggesting you weren’t a woman because of it. Also for reference, I live in a pretty big city that can get pretty crowded. Maybe location makes a difference.

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        1. i live in a big city too (about 2 million people) and these things so rarely happen to me. like… once a year maybe ? and when there is a catcall it is because i am dressed up, and i appreciate it because yes i did make a conscious effort to attract attention. and i can enjoy the rowdyness of guys yelling at me from a distance in their car on a crowded street downtown. there is no scaryness here. just drunken young men enjoying a night out and being silly.

           and i can get silly too when i am on party mode.
           so. i don’t know. maybe it’s because it’s not the US here. i’ll go to Mexico this winter. i’ll see how that goes. 🙂

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     3. Just thank your lucky stars that you didn’t have these experiences. I’ll trade my big boobs with you any time to live in a world that did not attack me sexually even before I was 10 years old. If you want to be sexually assaulted, just walk on a lonely street late at night and all your dreams will be materialised. I can assure you that you don’t need big boobs to attract attention – I didn’t have boobs or even pubic hair when I was 10 years old.

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        1. ”if you want to be sexually assaulted”…”your dreams will be materialised”

           wtf really ?

           and i have walked countless times alone at night on lonely streets. in a big city. i do this since i am 16. now i am 31. and i am rather small. no agression. just the moon, the stars, maybe someone asking me for smokes or change, maybe dropping a compliment. i say thanks. continue my way. this is not an a sexual assault… this is human interraction.

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288. I think you hit the nail on the head. Men don’t know what it’s like. In fact, at some deep level, we crave confrontation, When we see a stranger in a dark parking lot, we think about the ways we could hurt them if they try anything, not about the ways they can hurt us. Add to that, we are empathy impaired. We’re very bad at understanding how others feel.

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289. Thank you for these thoughts.

     In India, it’s actively taught that women should be soft spoken, never make too much of a fuss and always react to abuse/violence/rape in a manner that is social acceptable. It’s an entire culture of de-escalation. It may not be true of all families, but it’s definitely present in alarming quantities – opinions on how women can and cannot react to sexism and whether or not it’s imagined/blown out of proportion/a cry for attention. My mother has often chided me when I get enraged about these things (in addition, I’m a bit short tempered as well) saying that women shouldn’t react in ways that draw attention.

     I find myself feeling defeated very often when I face sexism, especially the subtle, everyday kind of sexism that you talk about. We need the support of men to overcome this and achieve equal status for women. But most of them don’t listen.

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290. Very well done. I extend my heart deep apologies to you and all the rest of the women in the world for this behavior. I’m a 70 year old man, now, and I did a little bit to help raise two daughters. I never got the fine line between issuing a compliment to a girl, lady, woman that was meant to be a compliment only, and her negative reaction to same. You clarified some of this for me. It ain’t easy even in my own mind that intends to render no harm how menacing something might become on the instant. In a perfect world, a man can praise a woman for her grace and charm and not be treated as anathema. We live in no such perfect place. I reckon I realized the precariousness of the situation in the sixth grade, when I started running into lamp posts turning my head to whistle or gawk. That a girl is pretty should not cause such upheaval. That it does attests to the imperfection of maturity, especially in the case of the male. That this is something that should be talked out loud openly in every theater of intercourse (no pun intended), that means the home, the school, the church, the work place, the athletic endeavor and etc is very obvious. Males in relation to the perception of the female must have things explicitly and forcibly detailed, explained in a way they can physically always remember. We are dense, and you are air and light, and we need that air and light for life. We are Lenny, and most of us, have no idea we are killing you. I would not want to shake your tree so hard you shiver rethinking the situation, but building a compliment for a girl has always been one of the funnest things I ever did. A girl served me a beer the other day in one of my favorite places, and I came home and wrote a poem about how she effected me. I wondered whether to submit to her a copy, for I hate the idea of scaring her. Reading your piece here, I reckon I’ll just file that poem. I like writing; I like reading; I like what you said and how you said it in this piece. After the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. I said that I would have been killed at the age of 15 had I been born black. Reading your piece here, I probably would have been killed at the age of menarche had I been born female. Thank you for your savvy.

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291. This is stupid. Dude I have been called honey so many times by women and I am a male that men don’t think anything is sexist. Only a certain segment of women get offended by harmless actions.

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     1. It’s not the word itself but how it’s used. Anything can be used as a weapon, words included. There is a difference between a person calling someone “hun” or “honey” out of habit, and a person calling someone “hun” or “honey” out of disrespect.

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        1. Because women can’t use those words against men to belittle them? What gives you that idea, exactly? You don’t need a penis to be a dick.

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     2. Its about more than the word, its about an interpretation of statistics. Many woman are aware that statistically they are likely to be attacked by a man. (not you, not many or most or all men, just one) so with this knowledge she is more on guard than someone who would not expect to get attacked at all. This has nothing at all to do with you personally; however when you approach someone, it is a good idea to take into consideration that they might have often been threatened and are used to having their rejections reacted to very badly, they might well react to an innocent comment more strongly than someone who does not experience such things often.

        Yes you get called honey, but do you also regularly get groped or followed or badgered for sex by someone physically stronger than you and if you did, would you perhaps not be more preoccupied by it in case it could become one of those cases?

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292. I am do glad this article calls out all those men who feel entitled to harass women just because they are ‘sex driven’ and physically stronger.

     At one time, I would also tell young girls, friends and acquaintances, that dressing soberly… and not sexily, …would be sensible and save them from stares and verbal harassment, at least . But, now I have realized that this is also a form of preempting de- escalating! To have to think about what we need to wear just to avoid harassment is itself a no-no!! Here, in India, older women in sarees are raped regularly, in the villages and in cities. 🙁

     That men, most often, do not realize that they are offensive when they sexually harass women is true, I think. They actually believe that women love it when they come on to them! I have had male friends claim this. Once upon a time, I laughed in skepticism about the theory that ‘Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus’ but today, I realize there is much truth in it. But, that, of course, does not excuse their actions. I just feel that we, women, must now take the pain and trouble to tell the men about our experiences and standpoint on Sexual Harassment And, that is what this article advocates… Cheers! So, take it really seriously, Girls, the men out there really are waiting for you to enlighten them on these sad facts of our lives

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293. Hi Gretchen. I’m a first time reader of your blog and I’m so pleased I stumbled across this post first. Thank you for articulating so eloquently a frightening reality for so many women. Sadly I can relate to many of the experiences you write about but I’m so pleased there are pieces of writing like yours that I can encourage others to read and spread the word! All the best.

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294. Ladies, in situations where physical safety is no worry, if someone disrespects you because you are female, speak up for yourself. It might not turn out in your best interest in the short run. You might get ridiculed, told you are over-reacting, called a bitch, be labeled hard to work with, or get fired. The world might vilify you even in spite of relevant facts, like they did Ellen Pao, but someday, in the last moments of your life, as you lay there dying, you will regret nothing.

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295. There is much more of a problem when it comes to women teachers having sex with their underage students. As many people have pointed out, women are protected where men are not. Young boys are come onto often by older women as well. I had a few high school teacher that were notorious for this. I’ve also had women grab my ass in the club when I was a young man, if a man had done this they would have gotten thrown out.

     What’s funny is, women or men who are good looking and self confident don’t worry about people checking them out and will interact with the “offender” whereas in my the less attractive and self confident will assume people are checking them out and get offended. I guess what I am saying is that if someone is just checking you out and you have a problem with it, then that is your own issue in your head and you are not very comfortable in your skin. Someone “cool” can handle that with grace.

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296. Lame words by lame writers over and over again in different context . Stop focusing on ur v and focus on the fact we are all humans . Gender is not a race . Women and men like to act is if they have never done anything shitty to one and other . Get over fighting this ghost war . And focus on living . U are not oppressed , you just need to belive you are or you don’t exist .

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297. The mental checklist! God! It’s like someone wrote my thoughts here! 😀

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298. I don’t think women realise how frequently men also experience these things both from women and men from the time that we’re boys. Belive me. We know.

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299. I really enjoyed your post. You hit the nail on the head. The experience that you mentioned has always been a reality for me, just one I got so accustomed to that I didn’t flag it as being inappropriate until I was a couple of years into my twenties. It wasn’t until my boyfriend of five years and I moved into together. This lead to us doing more things together such as: grocery shopping, going to the liquor store, walking around the city together, etc. I noticed how upset he would get when a car drove by and honked, or someone whistled as we walked by, or the worst was a drunk that made a comment to him regarding my appearance. My response was “Just let it go, it happens all the time. This is just my reality that you have never experienced. You have to pick your battles.” It wasn’t until those words came out of my mouth that I realized that in my mind I was minimizing the issue, and his disapproval of this behavior reiterated that. I’m glad that you are bringing light and new perspective to this behavior that we have accepted as a society.

     #girlpower 😉

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300. Thank you for sharing this. As a 54 year old woman, I have never seen it summed up so succinctly and accurately on what it’s like to be female in our society.

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301. Great article. What astounds me more is that some women who feel threatened by another attractive female actually spread the vicious rumours that the she is easy and is fair game. As a result men feel their actions are justified and in their warped minds that the female wanted the attention and should be pleased that they expressed their interest in whatever format they chose to deliver the gift – be it rape, assault or abuse. Until women stand by each other in solidarity, nothing will change.

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302. Thank you for writing this article.
     I’ve never imagined a women had to suffer that much .
     Thank you for making me understand a women’s life

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303. I am, of course, in total agreement with everything this article says. However i believe men are put in similar situations by women, far more often than women would like to think. It’s not ‘manly’ to want to talk about a woman calling him sexy, or voting for the seciest man alive poll. BUT when it comes to women, things like this come out. There is an imbalance in gender certainly, but by doing this its almost victimising the woman further.

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     1. But everyone wants to be at the top of the ‘sexiest man/woman alive’ poll.. or at least get nominated… but that doesn’t happen.

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304. There are literally people dying from hunger, infectious diseases and war. But yeah let’s be a whiny bitch instead. I’m a woman by the way. But instead of playing victim, I decided to take action because I wanted to make a difference in the world. I’m one year away from being a doctor. What have you done with your life other than play victim?

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     1. Your choice to become a doctor to address the problems you’ve mentioned is admirable. Presumably it stems from a deep sense of the injustice of the world and a desire to put things right. There are a lot of problems in the world, and we need to address them all. Rather then “playing the victim”, Kelly uses her own experience of sexism as a springboard to speak about this experience on behalf of and for others. This is also a way of addressing injustice.

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     2. Dear future doctor, your desire to make the world better does you credit. But attacking people trying to make sense of sexuality issues does not. Open discussion and examination of issues is to be cherished as our ability to communicate and influence each other is precious. I hope compassion will be in your doctor’s bag as you work with your patients and try to make things better, it will help when exhaustion and disillusion set in … no one really deserves it completely but all have a chance to be healed by all the compassion we can generate.

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     3. 1 in 4 women get raped, what is the ratio of people who die young from infectious diseases? Perhaps since deaths from serious infectious diseases happen less often than rape, it is people with diseases who need to stop focusing on themselves as victims and we should stop trying to prevent disease since it is less prevalent than many other things.

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        1. Those aren’t even accurate statistics. But yeah I can make shit up too. 1/2 of the worlds populations dies from infectious diseases or a side effect of politics. This is more important than you feeling uncomfortable because a guy looks at you. You think no one has ever looked at me? By I don’t use it S an excuse. I don’t become “depressed” and quit medical school to live with my parents. Instead of being an sjw I decided I wanted to make a difference in the world. The American culture of victim hold is so ridiculous and part of the reason I left. People in the states who have no traveled or do not go outside enough for air do not even realize what suffering is. You want to see suffering? Go to haiti, Cambodia, Laos, to the Middle East. Women having to endure the everyday discomforts of being fucking alive is not suffering

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        2. if you wish to compare things, compare equal things. like death and death.

           percentage of women who die from rape vs percentage of people who die from disease. and you get an idea actually.

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305. Thanks. This is fab. It clarifies some responses I had to a post recently about objectification where people read “implicit violence” as an accusation about the person’s intentions.

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306. Amazing article! I am a man and sadly have done many of the things you mentioned. Most of us have. Did we stop to analyze it? Asked ourselves, should we have done that? Most likely we blamed it on alcohol or other factors and the next time we saw our female friends, tried to pretend we didn’t hit on them/asked to be friends with benefits, and so forth. We have also seen the behaviour you described, the minimising, quite often, but recognised it for what it was…probably not. Thank you for putting a name to the issue. To all the comments trying to steer the subject from the article to other issues, yes there are many other problems with society but that is not the point of this article and no reason why the extremely valid explanation offered within should be dismissed. You wish to discuss a different topic, write your own article and watch readers steer away from it and belittle something you feel passionate about.
     Thank you dear author. You have changed the mind of one man. Forced him to scrutinise his actions a bit more and be that slightly more aware in his interactions. It’s not much, but I am grateful.

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307. Hi, I’m a male, 24 year old, Year 3 University student, and I recently covered this topic in a lecture because I felt there wasn’t enough awareness from either gender about these sorts of posts. So I wrote I poem I’d like to share with you:

     ‘Imagine a world somewhat like ours,

     Where women can walk safely in the streets at night, without fear of the shadows or bushes around.

     Then imagine that world where Men are afraid, calling their friends as they walk home alone, loudly proclaiming locations like a Satnav, so they feel they won’t be attacked if their being tracked.

     Imagine a world that feels just like home, only here Men are harrassed in the bars. You’ve nice legs love, they’d look better round my face. That’s a nice jacket, my boy, have you considered wearing just a smile? All the men wanted was to have a drink, and dance with their friends with no hassle. Now they’re leaving early, trying to find somewhere else, cos these women won’t leave them alone.

     Imagine a world that’s blue and green too, and the public can still blame the victim. Only now it’s “His shorts were too short, what a slut”, and “that tight vest, he was asking for it”. She walks away free, saying “He led me on”, when we all know that’s a lie. Yet the victim is judged for wasting their time, and an unjust world keeps spinning.

     Imagine a world that circles a sun, only here all the men have to protest. They sit on Government steps, dicks bleeding through their joggers, because women can get condoms freely. Their facebook pics are described as obscene, because all they showed was a stain. Or they’re yelled at in public, told to put it away, because he wanted to breast feed his kid.

     Now imagine a time, say 50 years since, when the suffragents were all screaming. Standing in the streets, burning their briefs, just to be heard by the masses. Or imagaine Ross Parks, yelled at by the driver, because he didn’t listen to her. Now the movement has started, and those men get to vote, although a lot of them end up in prison.

     Just imagine the words, like Whore, and like Bitch, and them putting down men with their tone. Or Men getting paid just a couple pound less, cos their not as capable as women.

     Now imagaine these worlds, and all that I’ve said, and realise those happen today. But they happen to women, which is equally wrong, and this World is in need of some change!.

     So imagine a world where none of that is, and genders can live perfectly. If we imagine that world, and start to work hard, then together, we can all be free. The men, the women, transgenders too, no one should have to pay; no matter what you identify as, this World should be all ours to claim.’

     Now, I’m not posting this because I claim the title of poet extraordinaire. I wouldn’t have even mentioned this if not for 2 things:
     1. The response it got from everyone, including some women who didn’t realise there are Men (not as many as there should be) fighting this too: telling their cat-calling friend off, walking at night on the look for people in trouble…that sort of thing. But we often, and I’m not saying this article did this, get culled into the ‘men do this’ dynamic, which makes it difficult to continue. Just trust me, some men know. And we’re fighting!
     And 2. Cos I’ve been on that side too. At a bar job a few years ago, a 70year old woman asked me if I’d ever ‘had a 70?’ As she winked and patted my bottom. At the same job, I was told ‘you’re cute, go tell the ladies complaining their food will be 5 minutes’, by a female manager. And I could, but won’t, post my 12 year old self’s story.
     This was a brilliant article for Drifting Through to post! I just wish more people were fighting against this; for everyone’s sake…

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308. Reblogged this on freedombyanymeans.

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309. Hi, I read your article last night and it stillshas me thinking. One thing I left wondering as a man is how do I know a limit was reached? I attend university and of course, there´s a lot of girls here that I find atractive. What happens is that I tend to keep looking at them because I find them beautiful. Is this staring some kind of aggresive/violent behaviour? Sometimes I also take a look at their bodies, and being honest, from time to time I stare at some butt. Is this different from looking at their faces?

     When in a bar, for example, I see girls that (I believe) consciously try to attract attention to their bodies. I´m, of course, not arguing that people should dress differently, but still I find myself wondering if I´m doing anything wrong feeling attracted to a body that I believe wants to be attractive.

     I´m really trying to be a better man day by day, and this article has got me thinking. I just find it confusing to know when I´m just being an heterosexual man trying to flirt, or just attracted to a woman, and when am I becoming a monster.

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     1. it is really difficult to answer, honestly not all women are the same in terms of what they like and what they like not.

        i find myself very turned on by some things that totally offend other women. and sometimes within the same month, some things may work on me while another time the same things may really put me off.

        and sometimes it just depends on the time and place… and also it even depends on the person who does it.

        i can only speak for myself here… but i think the important thing is to value the person in front of you. to not do something in an intent of TAKING from them, but rather OFFERING them something. sometimes the difference can be very subtle, between complimenting in order to get something in return, or complimenting because you feel good and just want to share it, make someone smile, etc.

        men have a lot to give. and a confident man knows that. he won’t sound desperate or creepy, and it’s really sexy.

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310. I do agree with the points the articles makes, and have experienced nearly everything she mentions, plus more, on a consistent basis. It really resonated with me. But I’ve found it so interesting to read the comments, because with so many commenters a bigger picture starts to emerge of “the experience of women” overall.

     It seems that for as many women who strongly identify with the points this article makes, there are at least many women who have don’t at all, and some can even count on one hand they times they’ve experienced this kind of harassment. I don’t think one negates the experience of the other, but I find it really interesting that there is such a sharp divide between the two. Either it happens all the time, or it hardly ever happens. I haven’t seen to many commenters say that this only happens SOME of the time. I wonder why that is?

     Also, I find it interesting that I haven’t seen a single commenter so far who seems to have picked up on the fact that part of the author’s point is that women’s conditioned response to de-escalate actually serves to reinforce it, and that she is, in effect, highlighting both that it IS a problem for many women, but that we ALSO participate in perpetuating it by tolerating it. So rather than a “poor-me-I’m-a-victim” mentality, it is encouraging women to be part of making the change.

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311. For many of the men reading this article, I imagine it comes across as “another way that men have failed and you are a terrible human being” guilt trip, and for the men who truly do respect and appreciate women, I think that must be really discouraging. I imagine it also feels like you can’t do or say ANYTHING to a woman without being accused of something terrible, and then you get disregarded or ignored for NOT saying anything! So confusing. So maybe I can clarify a little bit:

     Compliments are wonderful! We, as women, LOVE to receive compliments. From people we know. That are respectful. That are appropriate to the situation.

     For example, a compliment on how beautiful someone looks would be appropriate on a date, or to your girlfriend or your wife, or at a club where someone has dressed up hoping they will be noticed for their looks. It is not appropriate in a professional setting where it takes the focus from their professional abilities to their body. Or to service personnel who are doing their best to serve you in a professional manner.) That are appropriate to our relationship. (If I don’t know you at all, how can I possibly whether your intentions are genuine or “creepy”?) Bottom line, get to know us first, before you tell us what you think.

     And if you’re worried about your actions being misconstrued, a good rule of thumb is, outside of customary greetings such as handshakes, or in some regions hugs, NEVER TOUCH SOMEONE YOU DON’T KNOW. At all. For any reason. It will go a long way to keep you out of trouble.

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     1. except if you’re in a club. then touching is acceptable. but don’t insist if the person tells you they don’t want it.

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312. To all the women who have said things along the “I can dress however I want” lines, I’m sorry, but I have to call you out. That’s 100% bullshit.

     We all know that how we dress communicates to those around us how we want them to treat us. If you dress in business formal, everyone who sees you will think you’re at work, a professional of a certain level, and will treat you and speak to you accordingly. If you wear a cocktail dress, people will think you’re going to a party, and treat you and speak to you accordingly.

     If you are dressed to go out, or hook up, well, quite frankly people will treat you and speak to you accordingly. The is a normal type of non-verbal communication that has existed since the invention of clothing. Our clothes tell others who we are and what we want.

     Therefore, although there is NO way of dressing that justifies violence or sexual assault, if you dress in a way that would be perceived by MOST people communicate that you want attention for your body or your looks, or that you’re looking to hookup don’t be surprised when you get that attention. And don’t blame men for doing it. It IS what you are communicating.

     And to make things really clear for any guys reading this, if we are dressing to impress and you are impressed: great! That’s what we were hoping for. If we’re NOT, we are NOT asking for your comments, attention, etc. PLEASE pay attention to what we’re wearing. It’s a big neon-sign clue for you as to how we’ll respond if you approach us.

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     1. this is true, i agree to this. 🙂

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313. I can’t help but really not agree with this article. When I read a woman writing a long story like this my conclusion is that there must be hidden trauma/pain from the past underneath.

     I am a woman myself in this same world and totally don’t experience the things around me on the topic like you do.

     My advise would be to try and seek help to explore and process your past.It’s really not all that bad as you paint it here. It’s awesome to be a woman and men are awesome too.

     all the best

     Ann

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314. Great article. But I do have to point out that women often feel torn between wanting to look attractive and at the same time feeling disgusted if they are hit on, looked at, grabbed in the ass, etc. Don’t tell me you don’t wear short skirts, low cut shirts etc to look attractive. Do you wear make up and style your hair? I mean we can’t always blame men for being attracted to us. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending rape, assault, etc I’m just pointing out a few things because I’ve discussed allot of these topics before with men .

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315. As a man, this article truly inspired me. I see now what horrors women go through on a daily basis. I will no longer be part of the problem. From now on I will only date guys. They are less complicated anyway.

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316. That problem is part of matriarchy

     We live in a society with laws. If you choose to be victimized (because its a choice) and take it silently, then its your fault.

     Every gender has their struggles. To men its bodily harm, irrelevance, disposability and the constant threat of being killed

     We live in a dangerous place called earth deal with it.

     If you want to empower women feminism or victimism is totally not the way to go.

     Feminism served its purpose decades ago. It got you to this point. You have the same opportunities and education as men.

     Now what?

     You asked for change but you didn’t change your self.

     Whats the point of this article? That the world is scary to girls because men are (insert adjective, verb, or noun)

     Well that’s BS. The world is scary to girls cause they’re afraid.

     How can you empower women by legitimizing their fearfulness?

     Thats why I say that its matriarchy’s fault. You teach women to be fearful and that whatever happens to them is never their fault, you strip them of accountability, responsibility, and choice,You put all the blame on the other gender.

     No man would teach his daughter to shut up and take it to keep her job or to save face, or to teach drivers not to hit people instead of teaching pedestrians to look both ways before crossing (you know what i mean)

     You wanna empower but you don’t know what power is or where it comes from.

     You want equality? Then raise girls like you raise boys.

     The only sensible way to live in the real world in on reality’s terms

     You walk through life afraid? Be a man and do something about it.

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     1. ” To men its bodily harm, irrelevance, disposability and the constant threat of being killed.” Yeah. That’s what women are worried about too. You’ve got your head so far up your very own sense of victimization (“Poor me! The matriarchy!” LIke that’s a thing outside of your family) that you aren’t listening. No woman would teach her daughter to shut up and take it either. I sure haven’t. My daughter takes nothing from nobody.This article is asking women about their experiences and saying to do EXACTLY what you’ve said they should do. It isn’t saying men don’t issues. PS: Feminism is about empowering women to claim themselves as worthy human beings. It’s not about putting one gender before another. I’ve been a feminist since 1960.

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        1. no, now they are teaching the men to shut up and take it…………..

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        2. I’m not complaining about mens struggles i was merely pointing it out.

           I’m sincerely glad your daughter doesn’t just take shit from people.

           The matriarchy is not the cause of men struggles it the cause of women’s. Thats what I meant.

           To empower women to claim themselves as worthy human beings?

           As opposed to who or what? Since when has the word women and unworthy has been uttered in the same sentence?

           Poor me…i’m unworthy of whatever because…reasons boo hoo

           You wanna empower then take responsibility and stop blaming everything on ur gender or another person’s gender.

           Take control of the situation instead of just taking it and crying to your friends later.

           i don’t know what feminism stood for in the 60s but i sure as hell know what its about now and it has nothing to do with empowerment.

           They treat women like overgrown children that need to be protected from the big bad world and are taught that if men would just stop this and that then bla bla bla.

           They don’t want equality they want exactly what you said feminism didn’t, they want special treatment.

           They want to censor, ban words, stop people from looking at them, complimenting them, talking to them, they want the right not to be offended, while calling ALL men rapists and rape apologists,shame women into thinking they’ve been raped cause they didn’t give pre-coital verbal consent, call everything under the sun rape, Say that we live in rape culture when rape is has never been that low in ALL of human history.

           We live in murder culture more than anything. Men have more reason to fear other men than women do.

           Anyway i just don’t think feminism is what you say it is. Not anymore at least.

           If you think that playing the victim and blaming external factors can bring you equality
           then I truly hope it does.

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           1. Where are you people getting your definitions of feminism? I’m talking about Gloria Steinem, Germaine Greer, Angela Davis et al. I suspect you’ve defined it for yourselves to suit your own prejudices. In any case it’s obvious both of you sure as hell DON’T know what feminism is. I don’t know any feminists who believe what you’ve said. I certainly know of neurotic people who say extreme things and claim authority for it but they are not feminists, or humanists, or any sort of -ist except extremist.
              OK – so “unworthy” wasn’t the correct word. Pardon my English degree. You’re so convinced I’m talking about victimization you aren’t paying attention. I’m referring to encouraging people to claim their self-respect. Male and female.
              Why would I teach my kid to stand up for herself and then think playing the victim in any situation was a good idea? (I like what a friend told her to say to the random stranger who informed her she had a killer body. “Yes (slowly pulling knife). Yes, I do.”)
              You have your head so far up your own fundament and are so butt-hurt thinking that this might be about you that you’ve missed the point. This is not about awkward social interactions in appropriate contexts. Heck, I wouldn’t be married for 37 years if it wasn’t for awkward social interactions in appropriate contexts! What the author is talking about is people who use cat-calling and inappropriate touch to dominate and take power over others. Those with evil intent.
              Beyond that, most women are not thrilled to be told they have “a killer body” by a total stranger on a city street. It that’s someone’s A game they’re going to be very, very lonely.

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              1. i would enjoy a total stranger telling me this. it has happened before. it felt a little bit awkward and i was not sure what to reply… but i said thanks. it was nothing more than this. he admired my body (and i can understand why, i am thin with muscles, and i was kind of showing it off a bit.) it as not like ”i want to fuck you”, it was the fitness aspect he was complimenting.
                 and yes i take pride in my body. it is a part of who i am. i don’t feel diminished when someone compliments me on it.

              2. She is in Chicago in the aftermath of a 10″ snow, dressed in flannel, hurrying to get to her job. Hardly strolling along flexing for the admiring crowd. It was a comment meant to stop her in her tracks so as to pay attention to him, something she didn’t have time for.
                 She didn’t feel diminished (and this article is NOT about feeling diminished – it’s about feeling annoyed at best and fearful for one’s safety at worst. Display your bod to the wrong person and you’ll get 6 inches of blade in your ribs.) She felt annoyed. She is very comfortable with her body and with displaying it in the appropriate context. She has no problem with men, or women, admiring her. She DOES have a problem with assholes who think it’s their right to demand her attention. It’s a question of context and attitude.

              3. i understand. it is within the difference between giving attention to someone (positive), and demanding or taking attention from someone (negative)…

                 i understand this on so many levels in life. everyone does this… taking energy from others. some form of vampirism of attention. it is something i watch a lot in people interractions. very interesting too. very interesting. some people feel like they are this big black hole that needs constant attention/energy from other peoples. they divert people from their paths so they have to listen to their complaints, or give them hugs, or sexual attention.

                 even when some people touch me. some i feel they are giving me something. some i feel they are taking me something. though rest assured this vampirism is not a strictly male thing.

317. I think this post is sexist within itself, I am a woman and yes some of these things do happen, but men are not all the same and this post makes out that they are, also I know some women that have this behaviour towards men, so it works both ways, I really do believe that this post is over the top and sexist.

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318. How quickly, ie instantly the debate became about a man’s issue, so men could control it and stop our women’s issue from being a) heard and b) taken seriously. I would have laughed at its obviousness were it not also so serious and infuriating. You are sooo right, even when they are the perpetrators of such things each one seems to believe he is the only clever and daring one. Gaaaa.

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     1. It’s not some kind of internal “women’s issue”. It’s about women and men. It makes claims about what it is like to be a woman because of men. It makes claims against men. You can’t say “it’s all men’s fault” and not expect men to comment and a) try to defend themselves or b) challenge the claims.

        If anything, feminists dominate the public conversation. Men who want to talk about men’s issues are silenced by feminists and when they try to speak up against it they’re publicly shamed. Women who want to talk about women’s issues are cheered on and get massive media coverage.

        Go ahead and blame it on “the patriarchy” but just because you pretend men are to blame for this situation that doesn’t mean men benefit from it. Feminists who portray themselves as victims exploit the very same gender stereotypes first and second wave feminism tried to abolish. You’re not liberating women, you’re reinforcing their oppression.

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        1. She didn’t say “ALL men.” She said this is what women experience. If you feel you have to defend yourself then you are either guilty of this behavior or over-generalizing and getting your feelings hurt. Of COURSE both women and men experience this, but this is an article written by a woman about her experience. Go write your article about a man’s experience.

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        2. And I am mortally tired of people who don’t know what feminism is throwing the word around because they feel attacked. Feminisim is about empowering both women AND men to be their best selves and to respect themselves and others, no matter the gender. If you’re defining it any other way you’re talking about something entirely different.

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319. I can’t say I disagree with anything you’ve said here Jane. However, I doubt that men will listen to you. Is today different from yesterday? Has something happened that will cause men to suddenly try to understand women? I doubt it. You have to make them. I’m afraid women have to take positions of leadership and power and force the changes you’re talking about. Nobody wants to hear inconvenient truths. It’s human nature. It’s not men who need to evolve, but the women’s movement. They simply need to step up and force the changes they want to happen. Men are not going to help you, and they won’t change unless you make them. But here’s the good news: We’re making room for you. We’re beginning to step aside and let women in. And that’s a change for the better.

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     1. Kevin which is it? do women need to take power and force their ideas on men, or are men like you going to kindly make room for them in the mans world once they’ve “evolved” enough??????????
        “Has something happened that will cause men to suddenly try to understand women?” This article and all the many others like it is something that happened to cause men to understand women, also its important that men share these ideas with other men, you could help out instead of just sitting back and waiting for the womens movement to evolve enough to make something suddenly happen…….this is a water through stone type of process Kevin, but everyone’s help is needed increasing the flow

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        1. Kevin is being honest. He is far more engaged than most men. Heck, he’s here giving his views. And you know what? He’s right. The one most powerful way women cod force change would be to leverage the most valuable (in their eyes) asset we have–our bodies, and refuse to have axe with any of them until things were to our liking. Period.

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           1. Sorry. I meant–refuse to have sex w men. That, in their view, is our most valuable asset.

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     2. Kevin sounds like you could work on listening. And…the Women’s Movement has work to do? Men are very much a part of that movement, you can be an ally.

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     3. So… Women can change their actions but men don’t need to change? Men don’t need to stop catcalling, grabbing asses, and making inappropriate comments because women are going to change what they do? Makes no sense. This movement is about men respecting women, and I would argue vise versa as well. But you can’t have positive change without men on board as well.

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     4. Sounds like you’re just getting jumped on by people who are instantly misunderstanding your point. Kevin isn’t saying that this is useless. He’s not disregarding the movement. He’s saying that men are complacent, and are turning a blind eye be it due to tradition, culture, upbringing, etc. He’s saying those who do not understand or care to, will need to be forced to understand through one way or another. His final “men [don’t need’\] to evolve” statement isn’t saying that men are supposed to be privileged, it’s stating the inconvenient truth that men aren’t in a position where they need to change because it’s not something that they understand as affecting them directly (As in, not their problem). It’s a human issue, but the majority of men, as Jane put it, simply do not know about what women need to go through, and Kevin is simply saying that the women’s movement has to do something that makes it apparent for men who simply don’t care to understand, otherwise the won’t feel a need to be an ally for such an equality seeking movement since they’re not directly affected. His final remark was simply acknowledging that we are making progress, despite all of the ignorance he just pointed out.

        So to Strawbones: That is exactly what he’s saying. He’s saying ignorance is slowly being weeded out, but he simply feels it’s not happening fast enough.

        To melanie: You REALLY need to work on your listening. He never said men cannot be a part of the movement, he simply stated that men who are unaffected and ignorant are not going to go out of their way unless they are forced to understand (which I think is harsh, but still not a bad opinion).

        In the end, men need to understand what women are going through, and for that to happen they must be able to see and care about the experiences women go through. The real battle starts with getting anyone to actually care about anyone other than him/herself (group, faction, etc). That much applies every single equality/humane movement.

        Reply

        1. Hey S. Bunny, I am really grateful to see your response. It articulates clearly what Kevin was trying to espress. Thank you for sharing your insight!

           Reply

     5. ok kevin sorry mate but what a load of BS. women can’t stop men from being sexist dicks men have to do that. today is different from yesterday…remember when women were property? when a husband could rape his wife? when women were expected to be mothers and wifves and little else? NO, maybe because yesterday is different from today. So maybe if men like you and me actually ACTUALLY listen then we might learn enough to change our behaviour…like telling the guy with the sexist joke that it’s not funny instead of laughing along.

        Reply

        1. Sorry but sexist jokes are funny. Just ask every single woman who has laughed hysterically at the sexist joke I’ve told where the man is the butt of the joke.

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           1. oh wow an anecdote about women being sexist to justify being a dick. sad dude.

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320. This post is bull shit and pretty dictational. Not to mention pretty sexist towards men. I would like to also point out, men too are sexualized. Not just women. To write a post like this, you need to do some research and be a little less naive. Come back once you’ve done that.

     Reply

     1. Said the man who doesn’t get it. YOU need to get a clue. Ask your mother (or girlfriend if anyone actually will have you) how many times they’ve been harassed or condescended to or touched inappropriately. Then LISTEN.

        Reply

     2. This article is not sexist! It’s documenting experiences that women go through every day. It’s not attacking men at all and it’s not saying they’re not sexualised, but it’s drawing attention to the problems people may not think or know about, but which are important and probably affect more women in a greater way than they do men. The fact that you conceive this post to be ‘naive’ shows how ignorant you are of exactly what this article is trying to inform you about.

        Reply

     3. Maybe you should do the same thing. What a dumb comment. Way to perpetuate the stereotype.

        Reply

     4. The author wrote an article about the experience of women from a woman’s point of you because she’s a woman. She didn’t say men don’t have the same experiences. Reading comprehension – get some.

        Reply

     5. “To write a post like this, you need to do some research”???……. Kinda at a loss for words. This woman is stating her own experiences, her friend’s and women she knows as a trend we see in society. I’m pretty sure there’s not much more to research since she’s, you know, LIVING IT. Such an ignorant comment. Also, I would like to point out, yes men are sexualized and yes, that is horrible but it is not NEARLY as much as women experience every. single. day. So you see ads on billboards and magazines with a guy with rock hard abs in his underwear… Ok, you watch a commercial where a guy is objectified or promoting some bogus product to make you more attractive. That really sucks, I’m sorry. I know, because as a woman I see the same things. But for women, it goes beyond this. This article really captures all the struggles women face in a social environment. Do you seriously think these situations are made up just so women can make you feel like a piece of shit? No. They’re true. And they’re relatable. At 15 I had a job as a cashier and had to laugh off MULTIPLE men making inappropriate jokes. At 16 I was cat called down the street and had two men argue about me in front of me. At 17 a guy called after me for his friend. At 18 I was dancing when a guy came up behind me and grabbed my ass at a club. Then it happened again the next time I went out and again and again and again. This is reality. Wake up and face it. This post is not sexist. She’s not saying ALL men do this, or ALL men are perpetrators. No. She’s saying she wants men to listen and understand because they don’t have the same experience. So how about YOU do some research before making a shitty comment on a very honest post. And if one day, you have a daughter that comes home crying because a boy on the school yard pushed her up against the wall and grabbed her, I hope you feel angry that this is the world we live in. Maybe then you will finally get it.

        Reply

        1. damn, I’d hate to see your comments when you’re NOT at a loss for words! I don’t disagree with any of it though. I think a lot of the reason men refuse to acknowledge these realities is that they can’t handle the guilt that accompanies them. I guess maybe not all men are guilty of making a woman feel uncomfortable or acting inappropriately sexual towards women but a damn large majority of us are. I know I’ve done it, especially when I drank but not exclusivel, and I feel extremely ashamed. I didn’t realize how unwelcome and threatening my behavior was until I actually did listen to a woman I was dating describe her experiences. It’s not pretty and it’s not because of anything women do wrong. Men are clueless at best, malicious and predatory at worst, and the only way that can change is if we listen up and allow ourselves to be educated.

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           1. I guess I should rephrase that… “I have a plethora of words to respond to this” haha 😉 but really, I think it’s pretty admirable that you can admit those faults. Admirable because owning up to mistakes or things you did wrong is a big challenge for everyone and you’re able to do it in front of a bunch of people that could easily tear you apart for those actions (considering the article we’re commenting on). You have a really great point about guilt and being ashamed. I think if more people talked about it, we could move on and be more progressive. I also agree that men are clueless. Not in a ride way but they sincerely have no idea when their actions are percieved as threatening sometimes. Very good points, thanks for the reply and for getting me to think 🙂

              Reply

     6. Aren’t experiences really primary research??! It is hardly necessary, especially writing from ones experiences

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     7. “But what about us POOR POOR MEN? When will women care about MEN? MEN MEN MEN” This is what “men’s rights” idiots look like.

        Not: “We want to fight to be able to wear make up, skirts, stay home with kids and cook!” THAT is a men’s rights issue.

        Reply

     8. MRA troll is obvious.

        Reply

     9. Look up “paternalistic”.

        Reply

     10. the very first paragraph…the very first!

         “There’s this thing that happens whenever I speak about or write about women’s issues. Things like dress codes, rape culture and sexism. I get the comments: Aren’t there more important things to worry about? Is this really that big of a deal? Aren’t you being overly sensitive? Are you sure you’re being rational about this?

         Every. Single. Time.”

         in an article about men listening and you respond with a truly stupid comment that shows either: you havn’t read the article OR you are so self obsessed that you simply can’t understand that the what the concept of “listening” entails.

         Reply

321. As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Kevin Barker. Ending this behavior MUST ultimately come from men — on the abuser can stop the abuse. But he IS right in that women need to take control — we need to be in office, be the CEOs, be the chairperson. Until women are actually in positions of power men will see no reason to take responsibility for their own behavior. It’s going to be a messy, difficult transition but I truly believe it is a necessary one.

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322. If people want us to start sticking up for myself, we can try. But I have plenty of examples where I’ve tried. One time I was at a bar and a guy grabbed by butt. Not the first time this has happened. I was tired of it and I was angry! I turned around and saw him walking away, chased him through the crowds, grabbed him by the arm and yelled “what the fuck is your problem?! Don’t touch me.” He looked at me, started laughing and kept walking.

     Hilarious. Well maybe I shouldn’t go to bars ever and just sit at home and play scrabble.

     Other times when I’ve tried to speak up, around friends, sometimes strangers, I’ve tried saying things like “that’s not appropriate” or “don’t talk to me like that, you’re being offensive.” Some men will get angry at the “talking back” that I do (God forbid). But the decent ones will ask – “how am I inappropriate?” I am happy to spend time explaining why, which results in the man either getting defensive, or simply not understanding. I’ve given up trying to explain myself. It’s useless. They simply don’t get it. Sometimes girls don’t get it either. They say things like “relax he’s just joking around” or “eh what can you do. Let it go.”

     Reply

323. I’m a man and you are right, I had no idea. I think most of us don’t know about this either. Like you said, when we hear about cases like the ones you mention we tend to think that they are exceptions, that there is no way things like that can happen on a day to day basis.

     Not so long ago a friend of mine was telling me about how each time she rode a bus or a train she could feel the stare of men looking at her, and how that made her feel uncomfortable. The first thing that passed through my mind was “What? Every time? That can’t be.” and I have to recognize that I also shrugged it off as something that “was not such a big deal”. Not only that, but in retrospective I might have been one of those guys, taking a look at a woman I found cute without realizing how much “damage” that simple act could cause.

     So yes, you are right. We are not aware of this. We don’t know all of you have to deal with that kind of stuff everyday. So thanks, because I think I’m a little more aware of it now.

     Reply

     1. Thanks dude. After nearly crying with rage over some of these guy’s comments,vyours was a real relief

        Reply

        1. I can second this comment. It is always a huge relief when there are men who listen, genuinely, and want to understand. It’s insanely heartbreaking how many of them cannot.

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324. Hello Jane/Gretchen!

     Stumbled across this post and blog from my friend Madalyn (MMJ) at Wary Wonderlust. This and other feminist/sexist issues are something I am learning more deeply about (at least empathetically!) and becoming more acutely aware of MY OWN thoughts & behaviour toward women as well as those from men in general.

     What I’m about to mention is going to first seem appalling, even contradictory. But the truth is it’s quite real.

     In my few years of better empathy about feminism/sexism problems in our American culture, and my desire to be at least an Ally for feminist — not an “expert” as I’ve been staunchly told by feminist as if it is holy ground that my masculine-nature cannot even breath upon :/ — I have begun to notice a paradox. A very strange paradox from a particular UNFAMILIAR perspective!

     I have been in the SSC BDSM lifestyle for over 26-years. The open-swinger lifestyle for over 10-years, and off-n-on in the polyamorous lifestyle over 4-years. Why? Because I’ve found the traditional, conservative, rigid, “vanilla” relationships in our society to be quite flawed and based on several erroneous rules, human conditions, and expectations. There’s no need for me to go into those details here and now… HOWEVER, what I feel does apply here on this subject and your post is the How and Why women willingly and sanely CHOOSE to be in the/our SSC BDSM lifestyle; particularly women who are happy to be submissives, bottoms, or Switches. Here’s the irony or paradox in relation to social sexism/feminism…

     Due to the extensive measures we go through to assure a BDSM’ers safety (men and women equally!) in a legal public SSC BDSM community/dungeon, a LOT of women (subs and bottoms alike) willingly and happily join in the “Dark Arts” because of the remarkable safety measures, but more so and perhaps mainly because of TRUST. Trust in their Master/Dom/Domme/Top, trust in the community/dungeon, and trust within their support group of fellow females in the community/dungeon. If you’ve ever been a Guest inside a legal, public, community-dungeon… one of the first things you’ll eventually recognize is the number of “Monitors” around strategically placed; known as bouncers by the vanilla-world, if the community didn’t already explain the mechanics & staff at the front door.

     This was my Ah-hah moment. What the SSC BDSM communities/dungeons have that normal daily vanilla society DOES NOT HAVE… are enforced “rules of engagement”, safety, and TRUST earned over a lengthy period of time. In the vanilla world, men do not understand, nor are they necessarily taught or expected to abide… by these rules of engagement & conduct that ALWAYS take place in legal SSC BDSM dungeons, until it is often too late in the daily/weekly inappropriate circumstances.

     Paradoxically, women in the/our lifestyle are happy to be safe, highly cared-for subs, bottoms, and Switches. What you might find even more ironic is that the deep essence of a true Master/Dom/Top is the acute awareness and pleasure (worship?) of the female or male sub/bottom/Switch — an almost ALIEN concept to the vanilla world.

     I hope I’ve offered a different aspect/approach to the subject of your post. <3

     Warm regards,
     Professor T

     Reply

     1. You should read Neil Strauss’s book “The Truth” if you haven’t already. It goes greatly into understanding humans as human beings, not just male or female. I feel like it’d be right up your alley! A super great book!

        Reply

        1. Hello Vanessa! Thank you kindly for the tip-recommendation. I’ll check it out. 🙂

           I think the gender similarities & differences, subtle or stark, are not conditions we (men especially) need to over exaggerate either way. I LOVE living in such never-ending diversity married in harmony to never-ending paradox! Talk about living ALIVE in fun mystery! 😀

           “Do I contradict myself?
           Very well then I contradict myself,
           (I am large, I contain multitudes.)”
           — “Song of Myself“, Walt Whitman

           Reply

        2. Vanessa,

           I read three different reviews of Strauss’s book “The Truth” and found all 3 reviews to be…umm, somewhat pandering to his journalistic accolades, his profitable writing savvy, perhaps his “pulse” on and skill reflecting trend-setting & following social relationships, e.g. vanilla dating, sex, love, et al (?), but not really anything relavent to my SSC BDSM comment above. I also browsed his official website searching for relavancy, but alas, nothing. I found his POV and approach in his earlier book “The Game” to be very nauseating; I wanted to vomit. Why? Because of the same-ole-same-ole: objectifying men and women. However, both of his books and website DID confirm my notions of Hollywood and Hollywoodish relationships, love, and fantasy-marriages. No suprise there. And his Stylelife Academy? Hmm, I’d probably rather listen to long fingernails running down a chalkboard all day than spend reading that website and mantra. Finally, I don’t believe I’m the least bit curious to know more about him, his books, or his approach to relationships. LOL 😉

           But maybe I’m completely wrong on all of this and why you recommended his book and ‘reputation’ and apparent “expertise” in love & dating to me??? Which brings me to my next question, Am I missing something obvious or subtle (invisible?) in your recommendation?

           Signed: Confused and laughing! 😛

           Reply

325. Keep in mind that men go through this too. Its not about gender as much as it is respect and power. There are men who go to the topless bar for lunch because the boss asks them to, not because they want to. Men who laugh at obscene jokes to fit in, not because they like them. Men who don’t like foul language, sports, muscle cars but pretend to so they can be seen as a “normal guy.” Fathers and husbands who keep their mouths shut when their CEO is rude or condescending or downright agressive. Married men who are afraid to say anything when a woman touches them inappropriately, for fear of being seen as a wimp… And who are told they must have misunderstood when they do say something. And when we are walking down a dark street, some if us grab our keys through our fingers too. So I do appreciate the position, but this issue affects more than just women.

     Reply

     1. Yea, as I was reading this article I was thinking to myself, “hold on–isn’t the author describing humanity and human interactions in general, not just women?”

        That being said I can see why in the majority of these interactions it is scarier/more threatening to be a woman than it would be for a man. We are making this a contest, after all.

        Now I will be labeled as a man who “doesn’t get it.” But maybe you could listen to some men in your life who might have some complaining to do about society as well.

        Reply

        1. I completely understand that men experience some of these things. The point I was trying to make is the sexualization that happens to girl and women at a young age, that continues through most of their lives. It is ubiquitous. The fear that is ever present of sexual assault. One in four women are sexually assaulted in our country. Out of all my friends, you would be shocked at how many have experienced it. (some didn’t even talk about it until their 40’s). When a strange man makes a comment to me whether it’s broad daylight or not, I have to be on guard. I’d be naive not to. These are some of the crucial and key differences between how men and women experience this. In addition, the frequency with which women experience it makes it a common, pervasive thing in our lives. For some women a daily thing they deal with.

           No doubt men and boys have their challenges in our society. I have written about that as well and think it is equally important. I wrote this to illustrate to men how often it happens. Most of you guys are *good* guys. Most men in my life are amazing, sensitive and kind men who would never speak to a stranger about her body or say inappropriate things or grab a woman. They don’t witness it because they don’t do it themselves and they don’t hang out with the guys that do these things. And they don’t see it happen to their wives/girlfriends, etc, because it happens largely when women are alone. That is why I wrote this.

           Reply

           1. Reading Andy and Dan’s comments and then Gretchen’s is really interesting. This back and forth really seems to highlight the fact that we are seeing this as a competition. It’s the “who’s more victimized: men or women?” contest, but what these comments really reveal is that both groups are falling prey to the same oppressive cultural framework that tells men and women they must behave a certain way in order to be accepted by society. Men must (as Andy describes) affirm the macho mentality in the presence of some other men else they be alienated, and women are threatened and victimized by the same dogmatic culture. It is because of this cultural norm that men feel uncomfortable behaving contrary to the norm and women are made into sexual targets. Perhaps if we see that this is not women versus men, but enlightened women and men versus an outdated and oppressive cultural ideology, then we can begin to support each other in ending this sort of behavior together? Divided we fall, my friends.

              Reply

              1. this guy gets it

              2. The question in my mind, however, is “Why can’t we ever talk about issues in our lives without someone jumping in and reminding us that their problems are as bad or worse?” This is pretty much just what this article addresses and yet . . .surprise! This whole comments thread is replete with that exact behavior. . .

              3. In my humble opinion this hits the nail right on the head. I don’t know if it was written by a male or a female (with respect to the “this guy gets it” response), nor do I think that’s particularly relevant. The bottom line is that assumptions based upon gender have deleterious effects to everyone involved. It is not discounting those that women face to bring this up; it is broadening the discussion to the underlying root of the problem. I don’t think the author is discounting the issues men face any more than those commenting on the article are discounting those that women face. It’s a larger issue at hand…

           2. I think you really put into words what many of us have gone through or are going through, it’s even sadder that any inexperienced person would question you…smh,I like some of the same thing you like which is a good cup of coffee. I would like to send you some samples of good healthy coffee give you some time to try them out and if you like maybe you say something about it I would really appreciate it.
              My contact: 419-508-0060
              Email: bjsmess247@gmail.com
              (Leave interested in samples in your message and we can go from there)
              BJ,
              Thank You!

              Reply

     2. Well said Andy. I too believe it’s a person issue not a man/woman issue. We all, as human beings, have suffered in silence. The discussion shouldn’t narrow itself to one gender. Both genders need to be involved in the solution.

        Reply

326. Sadly the boyfriends and husbands and friends that you say we can talk to about this, confide and get support, are often doing the same thing to us. So then where do we turn?

     Reply

     1. I know what you mean Tracey, my partner can’t understand why I freak out about little things that “shouldnt worry me”. He’s obviously doesn’t realise the little underlying threats that we see day in and day out.

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327. I think the problem, at least for this article, is that you start by saying, “We have all, on many occasions, ignored an offensive comment. We’ve all laughed off an inappropriate come-on. We’ve all swallowed our anger when being belittled or condescended to.”

     Believe it or not, all people actually go through these things. Yes, all… though maybe less so for men and the inappropriate come-ons. So by starting off by dismissing half of society problems, it makes it that much more difficult to get them to sympathize.

     At least that is what went through my mind. “Hey, being belittled isn’t a women’s only club.”

     Just a thought.

     Reply

     1. I completely understand that men experience some of these things. The point I was trying to make is the sexualization that happens to girl and women at a young age, that continues through most of their lives. It is ubiquitous. The fear that is ever present of sexual assault. One in four women are sexually assaulted in our country. Out of all my friends, you would be shocked at how many have experienced it. (some didn’t even talk about it until their 40’s). When a strange man makes a comment to me whether it’s broad daylight or not, I have to be on guard. I’d be naive not to. These are some of the crucial and key differences between how men and women experience this. In addition, the frequency with which women experience it makes it a common, pervasive thing in our lives. For some women a daily thing they deal with.
        No doubt men and boys have their challenges in our society. I have written about that as well and think it is equally important. I wrote this to illustrate to men how often it happens. Most of you guys are *good* guys. Most men in my life are amazing, sensitive and kind men who would never speak to a stranger about her body or say inappropriate things or grab a woman. They don’t witness it because they don’t do it themselves and they don’t hang out with the guys that do these things. And they don’t see it happen to their wives/girlfriends, etc, because it happens largely when women are alone. That is why I wrote this.

        Reply

        1. I think Eric is making a different point. That if your goal is to win allies, there might be a better way to go about it by emphasizing our common experience. Maybe that wasn’t your goal here, though, and that’s okay, too.

           It does seem odd that you mention having written elsewhere about the things that men deal with and are confident here to talk about what the differences are between men’s and women’s experiences. Do you feel like you understand men’s experiences better than men understand women’s experiences? Why would that be?

           I have some doubts about it, but then I also have the same doubts about whether I understand any other man’s experience just because I’m also a man. So it goes. Lumpers and splitters maybe.

           Reply

           1. and she obviously does not understand every woman’s experience either. this ”all woman” claim was really not the case. luckily, not all of us live in this state of paranoia.

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        2. I never took any of your article as a “us vs them” kind of debate… I’m aware of the causes for your concern, and do my darndest to not aggravate the problem.. When I make new friends, one thing I often say is that “If I’m doing something that bothers you, tell me early, before you’re fuming mad at me and I don’t know why”.. hints don’t work on men, you just have to say it plainly, and unemotionally (which is why I say do it before I’ve pissed you off for years).

           So lets talk about a solutions..
           For the guys:
           First, if you’re a guy doing this.. STOP
           Second, if you’re a guy who doesn’t do stuff, good, try and go further by not hanging out and being complicit with those that do.
           I had a third point and forgot it now.

           For the girls
           First, If the situation is public, it’s probably a *fairly* (nothing is certain unfortunately) safe bet that you can stand up for yourself and tell the offender that perhaps other women he knows enjoy that sort of attention, but it’s unlikely, and you certainly don’t.

           Second, Evaluate your friends, DROP the incorrigible offenders, TEACH those who show promise, REWARD (ok, just take notice of) those who act respectably.. Acting kindly SHOULDN’T require this, but if the problem is as bad as you say, perhaps it’s a necessary evil

           FOR EVERYONE, especially those that villainized Pal’s Pen earlier, read the few more recent posts in his blog, they deal PRECISELY with this problem.
           https://palmadden.wordpress.com/
           The media is LARGELY at fault for a lot of bad behavior in kids, who then become adults…
           Stop SPENDING MONEY and TIME watching and listening to movies, music, and TV shows which GLORIFY the behaviors you dislike… I’m appalled at a lot of what I see on TV… How many times per HOUR do TV shows show people cheat? lie? steal? manipulate? backstab? abuse? KILL? and trivialize serious issues?.. I’m not talking about reality shows where you’ve come to expect it, (True blood), but I’ve watched shows like “Greys anatomy” and have to wonder to myself “In what universe does this shit happen?”.. Can I really grab this girl and make out with her and things will be OK?
           I have a fairly strong will despite being non religious, but have a firm moral base. However, I have to CONSCIOUSLY fight against this innuendo that it’s OK to act in the ways depicted.. Those with less moral footing, less awareness of the problem, etc are more likely to fall into acting like what they see, so it’s on all of us to stop promoting it.

           Reply

     2. Dude, don’t be a p@$$y. It doesn’t bother me or any guy I know to get hit on by women they don’t necessarily feel attracted to(or gay men for that matter lol). I take it as a compliment because I don’t at all feel threatened by a female, or even a group of females(no matter their size lol). Women can’t really defend themselves against most men so each situation is infinitely more dangerous. (And let’s be honest, unless you’re JJ Watt or David Beckham this doesn’t happen to you very often). And last point, the male sex drive is so strong that many men are willing to fight to get sex, because that’s what we’re evolved to do and then many times end up misplacing the anger towards a woman who turned them down. Basically your argument is full of shit and you are being part of this problem. (Drop mic)

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        1. You. Get. It.

           Reply

        2. Some of them (females) can easily kill an average man, they just don’t feel the need to do it unless they really perceive themselves to be in danger.

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        3. this reply is so full of sexism.

           ”Women can’t really defend themselves against most men”

           this affirmation is false. not all women are the same. some women can very well defend themselves. i am a woman, and i can run faster and longer than most guys. it takes training. but all things worthwhile to learn take some dedication. and i think this is important, to be fit for life. i also am good at hiding, disappearing, blending in a crowd.
           so, no, i am not punching someone, knocking a man down… but i am agile. i am not scared of men. i just use my different but equally effective methods. we have different bodies, different strenghts. we must know ourselves. one my male friend was stolen something precious by two guys. he faced them on and was not able to get it back. i just came in, stealthly, and took it from his hands while yelling RUN ! to my friend. the two guys never saw it coming ;)… we made it to a public place.
           men also have weak points in their bodies. male-specific weak points, and also weak points that are common to everyone. and i never even needed to use that as of yet. i think i would feel bad for inflicting pain. but if they are assholes and i am in danger, i will do it.

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328. While pregnant, my husband and I were buying groceries and an older “gentleman” grabbed my butt right in front of my husband. He said “oh sorry.” Trust me this was not a loss of balance because for one, he wasn’t walking, he was standing still and his hand grabbed my butt. This was a full palm squeeze. I don’t care if he’s into pregnant women, but look on the Internet, don’t squeeze my ass! I’m not sure why men still think this kind of behavior is ok. It may have been ok 60 years ago, but my butt is mine. I never said anyone has the right to touch it but my husband and even then I get nervous.

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329. For the guys that don’t understand this, even the smallest of things can trigger a sense of alarm or create a situation that women need to make this ‘safe’ or ‘not safe’ decision. This could be up to several times a day and noone would even realise that its happening while you smile politely hoping it will pass. Why did my boss just make a sex joke then laugh when I was visibly uncomfortable? Should I really go to the 24hr gym by myself with so many guys hanging out the front all night? Why does my male colleague txt me so late at night? Should I put a jumper on so that friend of a friend stops looking at my boobs? Oh wait, its too hot to wear a jumper but I don’t want to take it off because I feel uncomfortable with all the unwanted staring.

     Every time a car drives past me while I walk home from the bus stop each night after work, a series of questions runs through my mind – are they driving past normally or are the driving extra slow? What do I do if they call out or stop? How far would I need to run to get to safety? I live in a safe neighbourhood yet the thoughts are automatic, ingrained so deeply.

     These thoughts aren’t about blaming men or believing that every man is ‘out to get me’. This is about the knowledge that one day, one man might take it too far and every woman is just trying to avoid that possibility for as long as possible.

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     1. Well said. Thank you.

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     2. I’m a woman and I don’t get those thoughts. Does that mean I’m de-sensitized? Does that mean I’m a stupid bitch for not experiencing the same as you? Or does it mean that you worry a lot more as an individual? Does it mean you are fearful? Is this about who we are as individuals? Does it mean that some people are more sensitive than others so become more aware of what’s around them?

        Does it mean I cannot make these comment for fear of being bullied? Does it mean people who hide behind their computers to make comments can attack me personal because I don’t agree with all points raised? Am I allowed share my opinion without being judged? Am I allowed to express my experiences to people without the fear of being lynched, targeted or named and shamed? ?

        I have shared similar experiences as described in the article however I have seen male friends experience the same. I don’t believe debates should be one sided. It needs to have both points of view so readers can fully understand.

        Gretchen you have been very brave in writing this article; sharing it with the world. It’s not easy to be seen and be comfortable with it. You got people talking and that’s half the battle. Well done!

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        1. you raise some excellent questions that could take this subject much deeper. some of your questions really touch on how i feel.

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330. I am a 35 year old divorced mom of 4 and I have NEVER had any of these experiences. Where is in the world do you live, work or hang out! I guess it pays off to be overweight and dress modest/frumpy cause I’ve NEVER been disrespected in the ways you are describing.

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     1. Where do you people who say this has never happened to them live??? I am not pretty, been overweight my whole life, have an attitude the size of Georgia, live in a small city surrounded by farmland and this ALWAYS happened to me!! (Not anymore because I’m still not pretty, still overweight, still have a tude the size of Georgia and still live in the same small city but I’m now over 60 and have silver hair. The way I look now scares the former cat-callers. I am GRANDMA!!!)

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        1. I live in rural GA as well, well it was rural till the last 15 years or so. But to be fair, I work at home (as a freelance author) and I’m pretty much a home body. My “going out” consist of grocery shopping, visiting the library or going on homeschool field trips with my circus of children. It is probably the hoard of children always surrounding me which deflects these behaviors described here 🙂

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        2. Thanks! I’m the grandma men still want to grab, 46 and looking like your descrition of yourself, the scared looks I get from men trying to harras me makes my day!
           Who wants to have a grandma even if she is young?
           Most men change their ways towards women after they have talked to me.
           I know how much I am worth, speak out of my heart and tell people of.

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           1. It’s not just age – it’s the authority that my size (I’m not huge, but I’m built like my dad), my attitude, and my silver hair command. I’ve noticed that I can make badly behaved grown men cower with just a glare. I don’t expect this power to last if I become infirm but for now I can make the casual lout behave. The hardened sociopath – forget it.

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     2. It happens regardless of how you’re dressed. Just like rape and assault happen irregardless of the woman’s clothes. I have friends who are overweight who get comments. Some of them are catcalls, some are mean.

        You’ve never had a superior at work or a teacher make a comment or joke that was sexist or offensive? You’ve never had a man walking behind you on a sidewalk (even in the daytime) and had to be hyper aware because you feel vulnerable for just a moment and you see that, “Oh, he’s just walking to work like me, phew.”? You’ve never had someone follow you out of a store or had to get security or wait for other customers to walk out with a crowd? Theft and attacks happen to men too, but with women there is the added danger of sexual assault. One in four women have been sexually assaulted. This is not something that ever crosses your mind as you’re going about your day?

        If your answer to all of these questions is “No” then I am truly happy for you and want you to know that you are very very lucky. And rare. Believe me, the response I’m getting is confirming that this is widespread and prevalent (we’re talking well over a million of views and thousands of responses)

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        1. No, I really have not experienced things like this. But to be fair, I work at home (as a freelance author) and I’m pretty much a home body. My “going out” consist of grocery shopping, visiting the library or going on homeschool field trips with my circus of children. It is probably the hoard of children always surrounding me which deflects these behaviors described here. Most of the antagonism I have received in my life have been from female teachers, female classmates, female relatives, female acquaintances who were condescending, competitive, and insulting. Many self esteem issues I have dealt with as an adult were the result of psychological abuse from 3 female teachers in elementary school.

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           1. How awful. I’m so sorry you experienced that kind of abuse, from people who were supposed to protect you and nurture you, no less. I find the way we, as girls and women, sometimes treat each other so disheartening. I have been planning on writing a piece called “The New Girl Code.” One that has nothing to do with dating a friend’s ex boyfriend, but is about being positive, supportive and not tearing each other down.

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           2. i also have lived more trauma from females than males. i have been raped once by a man who picked me up hitchiking, but i have no trauma of this, it did not affect my life in any way, i don’t have fear and i still continued hitchiking for many years after this. but the mental violence and constant bullying i have got from females at school, this has left marks on my soul that i have a hard time erasing. i think this trauma will stay with me forever. girls can be really cruel to each other. there was nothing ”physical”… but ruining the life of a girl, laughing, saying mean things, etc… for a whole year… at 14 years old. i have never been the same after this, i still can’t trust most women i meet.

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     3. I honestly find it hard to believe you’ve never been leered at, had crude comments said to you as you walked down the street, had a boss just happen to put his hand on your back as he gave you a “helpful suggestion”, etc. Where do YOU live? The island of Lesbos?

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        1. I remember junior high and high school as an especial hotbed of sexist comments and groping. It didn’t happen every day, and maybe she was just one of the lucky ones who escaped, but I’m surprised she didn’t at least hear about it. It sounds like she doesn’t have good relationships with female friends, though, so maybe they didn’t confide that sort of thing.

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     4. Really? Where do you live under a rock? I like to go out have a social life and dress feminine but that should not subject me to daily harassment.

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        1. hey, i don’t experience this reality neither, and i don’t live under a rock. i am 31, i like to go out and dance, i like nice clothes, i am fit, i travel, etc.
           i mean i do get occasionnal cat-call (like what, once in a year maybe)… but the constant living in fear ? lol that’s not my life at all. and yes i do go out. 😉

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           1. It’s not necessarily about “living in constant fear”. It’s more getting sick of being treated like you’re just there to give men a cheap thrill – with, or without, your consent.

              A wolf whistle… yeah, that can be a little ego boost if it’s coming from a guy in your own age-group. A bit of a “hey, you look great and I’m just sharing my appreciation”. But coming from men who are old enough to be your father… or grandfather… it’s just plain icky.

              Conversely, it’s not so nice when guys yell out at you to show them your tits/whizzer/slit/crack… whatever derogatory term they can come up with. Or if a group of them whoop and holler and grab their crotches declaring how much “you’d love a bit of this”.

              Again, creepy, gross and sometimes that does get scary when if you ignore them they yell out “fuck you, you ignorant bitch!”, or when you decline their offers they demand to know “what’s you’re fucking problem? Think your too good for it?” It’s the sheer aggression behind those threats that raises the hackles on the back of your neck.

              And for the record, I tend to be a bit of a tomboy in my dress. I’ve always been a jeans and boots kinda gal and, with a whopping sternotomy scar, tend to not flash what little cleavage I have. I’m also a bit of a geek and tend to get along better in general with guys than girls (more common interests it seems)… but I’m still very wary of guys I don’t know very well, simply because too many have abused positions of trust and/or power either with me personally, or other women I’ve known.

              These things don’t stop me going out and having fun. Or dressing up and wearing make-up. But they do make me constantly assess the company I am in, even in only on a sub-conscious level.

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              1. ok first, what is the bullshit about age groups ? is it really considered a crime to date someone older (or younger) than you ? i’ve personnally had sex with people of many different ages, some of which yes were 20 years older than i am (so yes close to my dad’s age). i do not feel bothered or repulsed by it, i actually enjoy the company and the attention of more mature men. they have good conversation, interesting life perspective, and some taught me very interesting things, sexually.

                 but you know what. all the times i have been cat-called, it was done by young people in a party mood. rowdy but good vibes. except one time. only once i was cat-called by one old man, and it felt kinda icky. but when i turned my head and saw him, i also realized this man had nothing in life. that he probably suffered a lot more than i could ever be. i am young and pretty and wearing a skirt i like and feeling sexy in it, enjoying the warm weather. he is old, crippled, vulgar, has no hope for sex ever in his life anymore. right at this moment, i knew this was not about me to get offended. i had compassion and sadness. it was all he had left in life… this. and i had nothing to be scared of, it’s not like he was menacing or something, i could get away from him easily just by walking 😛 which i did.

                 the ”show me your tits”, the crotch grabbing, the aggressiveness, all that. i never lived any of this. maybe it happens more in the US ?

                 i remember though meeting a girl who wanted free pizza. she went to the pizza place ans asked the man if he would give her pizza if she showed him her boobs. the man said no i am not allowed to. and she still flashed him and ran away haha. is that agression ? we all thought it was pretty funny when it happenned. but i don’t know for the pizza guy. maybe he is traumatized.

              2. If people want to date people of different ages, power to them.

                 This isn’t about consentual arrangements. It’s about the sort of attention that is unwanted and un-called for.

                 I get that a lot of older guys might be lonely, sad, suffering the after effects of divorce. Whatever. Bottom line, a guy in his 60s or 70s showing his physical interest in a teenaged girl is still pretty icky.

                 Nobody’s saying he can’t look (because he will), but letting her know he’s been checking her out and liking what he sees isn’t really respecting how it might make her feel. If a guy closer to your own age does the same, it doesn’t make you feel like you’re being “noticed” by a paedophile. (On my 11th birthday, a man old enough to be my grandfather started making moves… and that’s definitely soured my experience, but still, if some guy their age was hitting on their own daughter or granddaughter, they’d probably be appalled themselves).

                 And I don’t live in the US. I’m an Australian. I’ve also lived in numerous cities and country towns and experienced the catcalling and vulgar comments in almost all of these places. Then again, only until VERY recently, Australia has had the dubious honour of having one of the highest rates of rape in the “civilised” world. Which is perhaps another reason some of us are a lot warier of guys we don’t know very well.

                 As to the girl flashing her boobs – we’ve been taught from a young age that sex sells (at least to men… “beauty” sells to women). A woman flashing her boobs at a guy isn’t the same form of aggression as a guy flashing his dick at a woman, because in that context it’s not about intimidation (in a different context, it could have been construed as aggression and intimidation, which would be equally wrong). That said, it’s kinda sad that it happened.

           2. Well I am 22 and I am afraid of date rape drugs, afraid of being “accidentally” grabbed or groped in a club because they think I am too intoxicated to notice, I look over my shoulder if I choose to walk alone at night, I have been followed before and most of the time they just stare me up and down but other times I get snarky comments where I feel like I have to walk with my head towards the ground. Perhaps you lived in a privileged area. I lived in a lower income neighborhood my entire life and I have lived in Peru for the past year. I also attended a 40,000 student university where rape of intoxicated girls happens, where men were caught jacking off in public in school parking lots and where men will look under the showers to see the girls. What I have experienced with inequality has varied depending where I lived, but was it ever absent? No.

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              1. i have lived in low income neiborhoods most of my adult life (at least the last 10 years). interestingly the rare times i get cat-called it happens in the downtown party district… by young men in cars who i would be surprised if they come from a low income life.

331. I never knew the full scope of this problem. What can be done about it? Obviously we need to do a better job of teaching men to be more respectful. I think making a habit of de-escalation is not necessarily the right move. If you’re in danger, then of course do whatever you can to get out. However, in a lot of the examples above, it would have been completely appropriate to call out the men, or even slap them. Especially if this is in a public place, bar, shopping area, etc. as they are likely there with friends and seeing them be dealt with like that not only clearly demonstrates that that behavior is unacceptable, but also emasculates the guy who was inappropriate. I’m of the opinion guys only do this because they think they can get away with it. But if a large number of women started standing up for themselves and publicly shaming unacceptable behavior, that behavior would be less likely to occur.

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     1. I think you’re exactly right. There have been times that I have de-escalated out of necessity and safety. But there have certainly been times when I’ve just let it go. That’s part of the reason I wrote this. It hit me one day after the Home Depot incident (that’s not a situation I felt comfortable confronting as there were two men and no one else around). But yes, I need to speak out more, when I feel it’s safe. Writing this was part of my speaking out. And I aim to do it more in life as well. Thank you so much for reading this and understanding it.

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     2. Yes, women can stand up for themselves and others, but only if they believe they can, safely.

        So many of us (not just females) are taught to be nice, to smile and give in, to not make a fuss. That is one reason why we so often pretend to ignore it, back away, and feel violated. We don’t learn that being nice can kill you because that is what predators are counting on — you going along until it is too late.

        I recently took a Krav Maga course, a practical self-defence session for women. The first thing we were taught (after the ‘no thanks’ was ignored) was to yell/ scream “Leave me the fuck alone!”, and run.

        Many women had never, ever, EVER!!! stood up for themselves. They didn’t realize they had the right. I am serious. These were well educated women of all ages who had enough money to pay for a 10-week course, and time to do it.

        We had to be taught it was okay to make a fuss. To stand up for ourselves, loudly and, if necessary, physically. That it was better to apologize later for what was called over-reacting, than to be assaulted or murdered. (Most sexual assaults are by people you know, and are taught to be ‘nice’ to.)

        We learned how to react to everything from drunk Uncle Harry getting too close at a family party (if he won’t back away, bend his middle finger back while smiling and no one need know), to full-on assault. That, if a stranger bothers you and does not hear your polite no immediately escalate (scream, perhaps attack, and run) to keep yourself safe.

        By the end of the course we were a different group. We stood taller and felt more confident — not because we knew techniques to defend ourselves (that is forgotten quickly), but because we knew we had a right to our own person.

        We had learned we do not have to be nice, we have to be SAFE. That it is okay to embarrass the guy attacking, and his friends, to be safe. We have the right to scream and fight back, and to keep kicking and screaming and scratching and anything else until we escape or are dead. Having the right does not mean you need to do so, just that you know you could if you chose to.

        And isn’t it sad that we needed to take a course to learn that we have the right to keep ourselves safe, even if it means making a fuss.

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     3. ” or even slap them”
        I know what you mean, but keep in mind that a slap could be legally perceived as an assault.

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332. Sorry to burst your bubble but some of the stuff described happens to teenage guys too. Like unsolicited groping. Leering by older women. When it happens to you as a guy, you can’t complain because it is not considered abuse. It is assumed that young men are so horny all the time that they welcome any and all sexual contact at all times. Fortunately this stopped happening in my tweens, but you don’t need to be a woman to be able to relate to the experience described in the article.

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     1. The author never said it didn’t. The article is about women’s experiences. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen to men either.

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        1. Author said, “ALL” women experience these things…not true. I have never felt unsafe nor have I been disrespected by men I interact with. The last time I can remember feeling unsafe in a public place was because a WOMAN was verbally assaulting me accusing me of “not wanting to be near someone of her race” simply because I made room for her to pass down an aisle of a Goodwill store. Do I feel unsafe crossing a parking lot at night alone..yeah, but I am equally afraid of women, men, and little dogs that could hurt me in the dark.

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     2. Oh, I totally get that. I have a teenage son and the thought of a middle age woman leering at him makes my blood boil. And it infuriates me when a boy gets sexually assaulted or raped and the media and the public brushes it off as not that big a deal. Infuriates me. And when the female predator gets a slap on the wrist. It’s another thing our society needs to confront and change.

        The point of this article was the frequency and prevalence with which it happens throughout a woman’s life. It can become exhausting.

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333. I don’t think she was implying this a women-only problem – I think this particular story is simply spoken from the female perspective. Men, you have the freedom to write similar thoughts if you feel you suffer the same.

     Realistically though, this problem is infinitely worse for women, who are (generally) the physically weaker sex. From an emotional perspective, I agree that men can be targeted too – no doubt about that. But view this story as a whole and try to hear what she is saying. A lot of us women truly do not feel physically safe in our everyday worlds. It starts with taking an emotional beating from a simple act of sexually-charged disrespect from a man, but since we know men are stronger than us, that uneasy feeling we are left with translates to ‘danger’ the moment we are some place alone.

     I do find some of these defensive comments a bit childish… guys, it would do you good to open your hearts and minds to what this woman is saying right now. A mature man will take this information seriously and just become more aware. That’s all that was asked of you.

     Personally, I feel this threat almost every time I leave the house. Each town and culture is different. Where I live, disrespect usually comes from men in the 50-60 age range and from a particular cultural background. It is creepy beyond words. I know that very few of this type would likely be able to overpower me as I can run, but the stares and inappropriate comments leave me feeling dirty and sick to my stomach. Why should I have to endure that? I’m a petite but strong woman, too. I do have the capacity to say something if I get angry enough and I’ve been known to, but men don’t care – they laugh at me. Which makes me more fearful to defend myself the next time. So yes – I often just shut up. This is where I agree with Kevin. The types of men who violate women with their eyes and words couldn’t care less that it bothers us and, in fact, many do it because it makes them feel powerful. There’s pretty much nothing we can do about it, other than create awareness and hope all the good guys make a small difference for us! As for those good guys: being a normal guy who notices a pretty girl is not wrong. It would be crazy to expect you to not even look at us. I think that’s silly. It gets creepy when you stare, though. It gets creepy when you are our father’s age. It is messed up when your advances are clearly not being welcomed, yet you carry on, or get pushy. It makes you look like a psychopath.

     I’m for us women carrying a legal ‘back off’ spray canister for use exclusively on everyday creeps.

     Yes.

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334. Sadly getting older is a saving grace for women. Men are less likely to do the above but I still make sure I am very aware of my surroundings at all times. We do this without even thinking about it most of the time. Women just know we have to do this to be safe. It’s as normal to me as breathing! Sad but true.

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335. It’s good to know that you don’t generalize that most men are violent rapists.

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336. I have experienced much of what was written about in this article. One of my top frustrations is that I am expected to make different choices just because I’m a woman. One recent example: I have been told that I shouldn’t walk at night by myself by a concerned male friend. He followed up by saying it would be different if I was a guy, but since I’m a petite woman it was risky behavior…So frustrating! What am I supposed to do, lock myself in my house as soon as the sun sets because I’m a woman? Geez, that’s around 4:30 this time of year.

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     1. I cannot believe the oppressive audacity of this man to worry about you.

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        1. It sounds more like concern-trolling. I remember a conversation I had with a male friend in college–we discussed which streets were safest to walk on, instead of deciding that “as a petite woman,” I should just lock myself indoors at night. (But I also remember spending loads of time trying to get guys to walk me to my car after school activities.)

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        2. I don’t think she was complaining about her friend caring about her; rather, it’s the fact that women are expected to either change their behavior to stay safe or face the consequences. It’s the same as blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt or a physical abuse victim for not just walking away. Women shouldn’t HAVE to change the way they live their lives, men who harass and abuse women should change themselves.

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           1. yes, but we all know they will not.
              criminals won’t stop existing because we write blogs about how they hurt us. a criminal is a sick person. some probably read this kind of blog and smile at the smell of fear it exhudes. they get off on this…

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337. The media, through advertising, perpetuates the sexualizing of females, as do women themselves in the wonderful world of social media, so men are coming by it honestly. Which in no way makes it right, it just makes it a reality.

     I do believe that we, as women, have to stop it. We teach people how to treat us. I wish it hadn’t taken me 46 years to figure this out, and I constantly preach to my nieces about this exact type of thing. We have to let the younger generation know these sorts of things are not acceptable, and we can’t minimize their feelings like I know my elders have done to me.

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338. Reblogged this on Heather Taylor.

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339. So I started reading this article, and as I got through the first few paragraphs, I started to get upset. Here it was: another article claiming that women have it hard because they have to be adults. De-escalation? It’s called being an adult – everyone does it. Avoidance of situations you think will go bad? Again, being an adult. Turning an inappropriate comment into a light-hearted joke? Again, being an adult.

     But I kept reading. Though that is the basic topic, it isn’t really what the article is about. It isn’t about *woe is me, I’m a woman, and life is SOOOOO hard*, it is about what *I* can do to make those women’s life a little better. It is about not just waiting for someone to finish speaking so I can give my rebuttal. It is about listening, and VALIDATING their experience. Just because it is not my experience, does not mean it is a true experience.

     So 1) thank you for the article, it made me think a little bit about my own behavior and how I can be a better man, and maybe, just maybe, make at least a couple of women less uncomfortable in the world. and 2) for all those men out there down-playing the article or lambasting it, STFU, and LISTEN.

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     1. 💓 you are exactly the kind of person who can make a difference!
        By keeping on reading and thereby getting some insight in how it is for women every day, you also know what you allways have known, we don’t think all men are bad.
        We know that most are your kind of man.

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     2. perhaps you should STFU. The number of times I have seen mens experience discounted and dismissed and if someone dares mention that then they are instantly a bad person? Sorry not buying it.
        Same thing when all the time I see how men have to change and adapt to this that and the other but women can behave however they want. It has long been proven that to address the behaviour in general makes far bigger difference than limiting things. After all everyone wants their experience to be validated by people accepting it. So lets deal in reality shall we.

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        1. The author is a woman, talking about what she knows – women’s experiences. She is not saying the same thing doesn’t happen to men.

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340. Wow! This really struck a cord with me!

     I’m a happily married 30 something mother now but there’s no two ways about it- the many (too many) inappropriate experiences that I had in my childhood and young adulthood have permanently skewed my view of myself and men.
     I trust and love my husband, I am lucky that he is one of the ones who does “listen” (bless him!) but he is sadly only one of a handful of men throughout my life who haven’t behaved inappropriate in one way or another.
     I’m not saying that these experiences are isolated to women only because I know they aren’t and I’m not saying that every woman is aware of harassment but in my experience, what clothes or makeup you do/don’t wear or how young or even old you are, worryingly seem to have no bearing on this so I fail to see how any woman reaching her 30’s/40’s/50’s is without some experience of this. Which is REALLY CRAP when you think about it!

     Gretchens post is something that I deeply identify with and I know this will be the case for many others also. It needs to be talked about and the people who do speak up need to be listened to without judgement and in the end this type of behaviour desperately needs to become something that is quite simply completely socially unacceptable. It needs to be challenged EVERY TIME not brushed away as “a bit of a laugh”. Quite frankly, equality will not have a hope in hell if this doesn’t happen!

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341. If your second sentence already mentions rape culture you will loose the audience for sure since 99.9% of people in a rape culture are against rape. I can say that we live in a murder culture or a violence culture or in a culture that falsely accused man of rape and that you should do something about that because you are part of the problem by not speaking about these things.

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342. This is so well written, and so true. My husband never, ever understood why I felt fear and uncertainty. Until, at the age of 55, he had his testicles cut off due to prostate cancer, which feeds on testosterone.

     After a period of adjustment to his body no longer having testosterone he finally understood what I meant. He was the same size as before, had the same strength and strong male personality as before. But he felt vulnerable. Even when alone, hitchiking in violent countries, he’d not felt that fear.

     Without testosterone in his brain, he finally understood why, 40 years after being assaulted (not rape, but sexual humiliation), I still cannot enjoy touch.

     Many men with a full complement of testosterone understand how the women in their lives are sexualized and assaulted. They, however, are not arrogant, believing how they experience the world is the same as everyone else.

     Yes, men do get harassed, especially smaller, less confident ones. And good men may have to go along with peers and bosses to keep their jobs and all. But everyone can help by standing up for those being attacked — when it is safe to do so. And it is usually far safer for a man to stand up to a male, than a woman.

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     1. wow this is interesting. about testosterone vs vulnarability… maybe i have high testosterone levels for a female, and that would explain why i really can’t relate to this climate of fear that i see so many women caught into…
        i have been hitchiking alone, a lot, for almost 10 years if my life, and really enjoyed it. it puzzles me when i hear women say they are afraid to walk on a street alone.
        maybe this would be a piece of the answer ?

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        1. Where are from?

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343. I found too many typos and other errors in this article.

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344. This really rang true with me. Once, at 17, I offered a friend-of-a-friend a ride home from school picture day before the start of classes. After he got in my car, he handcuffed me to the steering wheel and told me, “Now we go wherever I want.” I spent the next two hours trying to de-escalate a terrifying situation. He had me drive us out to an isolated spot and I thought for sure I was going to be raped, but he settled for copping a quick feel, then asked to be dropped off. To this day I’m amazed I managed to keep calm and get through it by laughing him off and pretending it was all a funny prank. My sister, who was 15, was in the backseat the whole time. It wasn’t until years later that she realized for herself how close we both came to being raped–I was so successful at de-escalating and minimizing the situation that even she had no idea the danger we’d been in.
     And no, I never reported it.

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     1. Good Lord. I’m so sorry.

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     2. I don’t believe this story

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        1. You don’t? Try this one:

           I was visiting a family friend’s house, with both my parents, rowdy and drinking, playing a board game with them, while I hung out with their son in his bedroom, along with my brother. My brother left for an extended period of time, and this boy, older than me (maybe 12, while I was something like 9), paused his game and pressed me on his bed, straddling me, and said “Now we’re alone, you have to kiss me” and he forced me to kiss him. My brother came in and asked what what happening, de-escalating for me, and the boy got off me quickly and said we were just horsing around. They continued to play games and I left not understanding why I felt so afraid, dirty, and uncomfortable with myself.

           But, as I am older, I look back and I know that if my brother had never come back, I’m certain worse things could’ve happened, by the way he looked at me.

           I have way more stories, but this is only one of the first in my life that stand potently for me.

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345. I think the big thing that keeps men from understanding is the “You’ll never understand” line mixed with the “I want you to understand” line. It’s very frustrating for someone to tell you that you can’t understand something that you want to understand, but you need to act like it’s true nonetheless. And if you don’t, you’ll be shamed for it.

     It’s like someone saying, “I know you want to be a good person, but you just can’t by nature of being what you are.” Which is, ironically, the root of all -isms . 🙁

     You’d make a lot more headway getting men to understand by saying something like, “This thing that I’m going through, it’s a bit like this thing that you’re going through. It’s different, but this might help you understand me.” Comparison is a good way to communicate effectively.

     The concept that white men never suffer at all and therefore are totally devoid of any understanding of “-isms” is a touch insulting. We have a privileged place in this society to be sure, but we’re not above getting shoved into lockers or shamed for our height, size, weight, hobbies, beauty, sexuality, “manliness,” faith, lack of faith, and a thousand other things. Every human being understands shame. Talk to us like we do. Most of us are on your side.

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     1. The author is a woman talking about woman’s experiences. She isn’t denying that men have similar experiences.

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        1. no but she is saying all woman do. which is dismissive of those of us who don’t.

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           1. A good point, but don’t belabor it. Perhaps the title should have been “Most women . . .” I’ve been reading your responses and in my experience you are an unusual woman. To me it seems that you take women more seriously than men. That’s not a critique at all. I kind of admire it.

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              1. i am puzzled though. i do not doubt at all what most women feel, the experiences they speak about i know they are real. i just don’t feel it myself. and really this fascinates me… the why of it. maybe the trauma i have lived when i was younger from being bullied by girls my age made me different in the way i relate to people and reality…

346. I can’t say I disagree with anything here. I also grew up with quite a few female friends, so I’ve heard a number of first hand accounts similar to those you mentioned.

     That said, I want to share my honest reactions as a man reading this… and hopefully it will also give you insight to what men feel and think.

     First off, your article sounds like you’re both asking help from men and blaming men at the same time. I know it probably wasn’t your intention, but that’s how the article feels like: That you’re blaming men, either for sexualizing women, harassing women, or simply doing nothing. My point is, it’s somewhat difficult for us to sympathize with you if the article makes us feel like the villains. Remember that for every man that grabs your butt or cat calls you, you probably know a hundred, maybe 2 hundred more that are decent men who fully respect you.

     Secondly, it’s almost impossible for men not to look at an attractive woman. It’s natural for us to look, even stare. How long we stare and what else we do after that depends on the man and his will power and decency. What I’m trying to get at is you can’t expect men to not look and comment at an attractive woman. We can probably ask that men not stare too long, or that the stare doesn’t become a leer, and we can definitely demand that he keeps his paws to himself… but the stares will always be there… and I don’t think women appreciate just how hard it is for men not to stare at an attractive woman.

     And my last point is, men are doers. Fixers. Most of the time anyway. Meaning if we hear a problem, we end up wanting to fix it. If it’s something we can’t fix, then there’s a good chance hearing it over and over again will only frustrate us and make us irritable to hearing it again. For example, if a woman tells her husband/brother/father/male friend that her boss harassed her, that male person/relative of hers would probably want to go have a word with her boss and do something about it. However, if all she wants is for this male friend to listen… sure he can do it once. Maybe twice. But if she’s expecting him to listen to the same thing multiple times, with him not being able to do anything about it, it’s not going to work. Men are not wired to be great listeners, at least not without acting. And unfortunately, this problem is bigger than any one man can fix.

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     1. i feel you… the fixing, the action part. i am like this, too. i am not a man. but i totally am up for fixing everything i believe is a problem. and if it is something that cannot be fixed, it is my attitude about it that has to be fixed.

        or as this quote;

        “Lord, grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change,
        the courage to change the things I can,
        and the wisdom to know the difference.”

        ― Francis of Assisi

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347. Hi,
     Thank you for taking the time to write about this issue. I applaud your courage to put words on something I have been feeling for a long time. Needless to say what gender I am.
     My inmediate reaction was to share it with my female friends only to realize that my choice of recipients proves what the problem you wanted to tackle: only women know about what we do.
     I then decided to share your post with all my community regardless of there gender. I think I learnt a valuable lesson, thank you again.

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348. I enjoyed the article; as a matter of fact, I’m unemployed because I filed a sexual harassment complaint against my boss for trying to kiss me and touch me. I did what was right and I still became the unemployed for doing so. Maybe if I had been willing to crawl under that desk a few times I would still be employed, or I can say I’m worth more than that and I’ll never be the girl that accepts sexual harassment. Here I sit, a single mom raising two daughters, unemployed, living off of the state until I’m working again. At least there is no public hair between my teeth. Something to be grateful for. Still need work though… sigh…:(

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     1. You did the right thing, Tammy. You’ve 2 girls who will gain strength from your strength. I had occasion to write of the diminishing, minimizing, de-escalating and the acquiescing that women do on a daily basis when I did my undergrad in Women Studies. I referred to it as ‘voluntary clitoridectomies’; we allow ourselves, whether by instinct, ingrained training, as Gretchen says in her insightful and truthful article, to reduce ourselves to the sexualized object these men see us as rather than the full-blooded amazon-warrior each of us are and I understand why. Pass off an unwanted pass and keep walking because altercation might lead to violence that we cannot protect ourselves from. The women of Sparta, in ancient times, were “athletic, educated and outspoken”. Very well trained. And you, by your defiance, are a Spartan woman. Be proud and when times are better, you might want to consider enrolling yourself and your daughters in Judo, Karate or some other lethal martial arts program – which honours defensive combat not offensive. I’m 64 and lived through all that on two continents and continue to encounter mindless harassment from older men (they never learn, they never give up) although I am less likely to let it go, much more confrontational. I know you will find employment. Continue your life in dignity; you are a beacon to your daughters and to other women reading this post.

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349. This article is called “the thing all women do that you don’t know about” I guess that “thing” is supposed to be blowing stuff off and moving on. This is not a secret, its called being an adult, not being a self pitying, wallowing victim. If you are a human being, you are going to be offended, hurt, abused and victimized at some point in your life, however, it doesn’t have to define you and certainly not an entire gender has the corner on this market.

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     1. The author said none of that. You’re extrapolating.

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     2. Yes I agree the author said every bit of this. I’m so sick of self pity it’s as bad as people posting everything to social media”look at me look at me”
        Seriously, everyone is a victim of something at some point, suck it up learn from it move on.

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        1. The author did not say to claim victimhood. She is saying that women must claim their own power to change this behavior that has been tolerated by society up until now. I understand you are tired of a victim culture, but that is not what has been said here.

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350. Sexism is so subtle, you can’t even begin to describe it! Often it’s silence, being ignored, not getting credit while giving credit to a male for the same thing. You’re right, they have no idea they’re doing it! It’s deeply embedded in current society. I’m often dumbfounded. If I say something (smart enough to NOT say something!) I’m being overly sensitive, bla, bla (other typical sexisit rhetoric). What can we do?

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351. As a man I have to say I completely agree with your entire assessment. I remember when I was around 24 years old I had a big moment which helped me understand what women go through all the time, and it was shocking to me that I had gone through 24 years of life without realizing it. simply becoming conscious of the fact that women are attracted to men, and men in general are bigger and stronger than women. Which means every time a woman is with a man she is putting herself at risk of abuse, rape, and even death, because if that man becomes violent, there is largely nothing she can do about it. I remember asking myself, what would it be like to be physically attracted to someone, who could at any moment, overpower me? It was an incredibly uncomfortable thought, and I realized that this is how women are forced to look at the world.

     I’m 6’2″ 220 lbs, and as a result I rarely have to think about the possibility of being attacked, and I certainly don’t have to think about being raped. Yet women have to think about this possibility every time they leave the house. And to all of you men out there, I can already hear you howling “But not all men are like that! Why are you attacking men?!” That’s not the point. The point is, all it takes is a small minority of men who ARE like that, for this to become a very real threat to all women, all of the time.

     As a man, ask yourself when was the last time YOU had to worry about a woman overpowering you? Maybe a couple of times in your life…. maybe.

     So for men, how does all of this affect your interactions with women? It means every time you are around a woman, she is assessing your behavior to try and determine if you are going to do her physical harm. She has to do that as a matter of survival. So try and be aware of your behavior, because the truth is there are probably women being offended by you far more often than you think, but they simply aren’t doing or saying anything about it, because to make that effort puts her at a greater risk of physical harm. It doesn’t matter whether or not YOU would ever do something like that. She has no way to know for certain. And it doesn’t help that when a woman does try to stick up for herself, the other men that are around, don’t always stick up for her as well.

     The fact is, most men have never had this moment of realization. It’s right under our noses, but it’s hard to see because unless you were told about it, you might never think about it. It’s like wearing a pair of sunglasses that you’ve never taken off. If you’ve never taken them off before, you might never realize that the world looks quite a bit different to people that aren’t wearing them. Somehow we have to help men catch a glimpse of how women experience the world that we share. Otherwise men will continue to minimize the things women are saying to them about this issue, because they’ve never had to look at the world the way women do.

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     1. Thanks you, Jeremy! I’m 64 and you are possibly the first man, aside from my son, who gets it. Of course, not every man is the provocateur, but women have to be prepared because we never know which man will be the one or when/where the harassment will take place. A parking lot? Between the stacks of a bookstore (personal experience)? You are a good man. School other men when the occasion presents itself.

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     2. 💖 thanks for being you!
        I meet a lot of real men like you as I am a truckdriver, most men look and comment in a nice way, the ones who do not get told to get of my back by real men. The only way I as a woman can feel safe is thanks to men like you.

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352. Aaaamen. I couldn’t agree more with this article. They complain that we talk about it all the time, but it’s because nothing is being done about it, and we are still living it. I still feel self conscience wearing a bikini to the pool because I hate thinking of how men are looking at me, when they make crude comments. As a female, we are pushed to our limits every single day. I thank God for the women who raised their sons to be gentlemen. The rest need to catch up!

     Follow back!

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353. Comments by the men showncluelessness…comments by women like thisMen are clueless at best, malicious and predatory at worst, and the only way that can change is if we listen up and allow ourselves to be educated….are the reason no one takes feminazis seriously.

     Good article, but it will take more than listening to effect change. Women need to speak up AND men need to control their behavior. I dont engage in such behavior, but others do. That said, I think action produces change quicker than anything…I cant possibly understand, but I can empathise. Thats a starr

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354. http://theelders.org/article/ending-violence-against-women-quiz

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355. I have personally experienced (less so now, since I work for myself and don’t encounter as many people per day) and discussed with close friends the exact situations listed above, all of them. Except in reverse. I’m a guy.

     I’ve experienced the boss, in this case a woman, refer to me as “sweetheart” and “honey,” which I “de-escalated” by remaining silent so as to keep my job. I’ve been cat-called (by men and women). I’ve been cornered, crotch-grabbed, and otherwise accosted by women. My ass has grabbed by women at almost every concert I’ve been to, and seemingly even more so when I’ve had a significant other present.

     What I hate the most is when I encounter a woman, and I think we are becoming friends (over the course of weeks to months), only to have her become completely uninterested in speaking with me or being my friend as soon as she finds out I have no desire to be any more than friends or she gets a boyfriend.

     I’m 6’2″ and 205 lbs. I am trained in a variety of martial arts and fire arms, and am generally considered physically imposing. I wear a t-shirt, boots, and jeans 90% of the time. My stature, dress, and sex has not seemed to deter sexual harassment.

     So I tend to agree with the call to awareness in the post. That said, I would posit that unwanted and unwarranted sexual attention is an experience of humanity, very likely because we are on a genetic level very sexual creatures. I would also posit that people using a higher placement in a hierarchy to treat people poorly, degradingly, whether sexual or otherwise, is also a common human experience. Were the current status reversed, with more women being in positions of power than men, we would find that more men are degraded and harassed than women.

     I’m not at all suggesting such things should be accepted, but that the battle for respect and dignity is a constant. Perhaps the primary thing we can champion is a culture where speaking the truth (in a kind, if firm, manner) about how you feel about a given situation doesn’t get you labeled as a “bitch” or “confrontational” or worse, lose you a job.

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356. Listening is easy. Ok, I’m a man. There. I listened. Not only did I listen but I understand: experiencing life as a female is uniquely taxing. Some of the grievances listed aren’t uniquely female, although the degree to which it is experienced and certain nuances about it make it uniquely female i.e. warding off unwanted sexual attention: men do this too, but certainly given both socialization and evolutionary biology/psychology these experiences are different for women and men.

     I guess my question is. Ok I listened, that sucks. Now what? What needs to change?

     The “movement” seems to be advocating different cultural norms.

     Some of the grievances, such as “sexualization” of young women are due to evolutionary biology/psychology. The degree to which it’s possible to mitigate this through enculturation is debatable. Men are attracted to youth and to breasts. This is nature. Culture might be able to mitigate this issue in the same way that Jesus disapproves of masturbation… but I would argue that this comes with blowback.

     Some of the grievances have to deal with the complexities of courtship and hookups. This is always awkward and taxing for/on everybody.. particularly in a free society where young men and women are left to their own devices. Perhaps arranged marriages could help in this regard? Regressing back to more conservative etiquette? Some people would think your grievances in this regard are nice to have. What’s worse than unwanted attention? No attention. Male celebrities probably have to deal with this more than the average woman and yet many men envy the sex appeal male celebrities have.

     Some of the grievances, such as workplace sexual harassment, you already have mainstream opinion and law on your side. So the question that must follow is to what extent to women exposed to sexual harassment believe they have a real option for real recourse? What sort of backwards mom and pop shop doesn’t take this seriously? I know that the HR department at any serious firm, large or small, would feel a tremendous amount of pressure to take it seriously. I’ve seen a serious amount of managerial bandwidth devoted to this stuff in very small firms. What more can we do? That’s not a rhetorical question.

     Some of the grievances, such as men are taught to be angry or violent are simply not true. Our culture does not value indiscriminate anger or violence, it fully repudiates it. Our culture values bravery and a just call to anger and violence, and men are uniquely burdened by the expectation to gallantly defend and bravely self-sacrifice in defense of civilization and its core values. This is a cornerstone to preserving civilization. Civilization must be bravely defended, and we see what happens to women when civilization falls.

     Some of the grievances are about always having to fear the action of potential criminals. What can we do about our culture to improve this? It seems to me that deterrence for sex crimes is as strong and unequivocal as we can hope. It’s a shame that criminals exist despite this widespread cultural condemnation, and it’s smart to take precautions. Perhaps I don’t have to worry about rapists as I walk to my car alone at night, but I do have to worry about other types of crime. It sucks.

     I see a mixture of legitimate grievances intermixed with fainting couch feminist grievances. Are women such helpless victims that they can’t handle being put in socially awkward situations? The sad thing is that this can take away a woman’s agency. When you describe the skills you’ve built, the calculations you make, in dealing with these situations you’re describing your agency. Your ability to navigate life with skill finesse, and individual resolve, that’s something that should be admired and celebrated not something we must escape from. Life is hard and taxing on us all. It’s ok to complain, to ask that somebody listen, but what confuses us men is when the lines get blurred between normal social awkwardness which must be tolerated to some degree and intolerable workplace sexual harassment, and contemptible criminal behavior as though it’s all part of the same fabric.

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     1. The author is advocating women standing up for themselves, not accepting a victim role. You are confusing awkward social situations, which will always happen, with what the author is describing. People in inappropriate contexts (the street, the workplace) making demeaning comments and forcing unwanted physical contact on women. Why only women? Because the author is a woman and she is writing about her experience. She does not say this doesn’t happen to men.
        You also say, Some of the grievances, such as “sexualization” of young women are due to evolutionary biology/psychology. The degree to which it’s possible to mitigate this through enculturation is debatable. Men are attracted to youth and to breasts. This is nature. Culture might be able to mitigate this issue in the same way that Jesus disapproves of masturbation… but I would argue that this comes with blowback.”
        That sounds a lot like “we’re MEN, dammit, and we can’t help ourselves!” I doubt you meant that. No one is saying that heterosexual men and women won’t be attracted to other and look at one another. What is being said is to control those natural impulses and recognize when they can be appropriately acted upon. It’s one thing to notice that a young teen is well-developed, it’s quite another to act upon that. To try to approach her sexually (unless you’re her age), cat-call, humiliate her, touch her, talk about her loudly to your friends. That’s not even healthy attraction – it’s an attempt to dominate – a show of power. And it’s evil.

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     2. And this? “fainting couch feminist” Lose it. I’ve been a feminist since 1960. Ain’t no “fainting couches” in feminism. Quite the opposite.

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        1. To the extent that I’d call myself a feminist – empowering freedom of choice and freedom of self actualization in all people, regardless of sex there are no fainting couches either. I suppose it’s disagreement over the term, but the most fashionable use of the term these days, is among the the people not advocating freedom of choice but institutionalized protection, and slinging vocabulary like “trigger warning” and “safe space” self identifying as feminists. I’d argue that’s not real feminism. To me feminism isn’t arguing over whether the bikini or the burqa is more oppressive, and proscribing ideas and behaviors for women, it’s giving women the choice, the freedom to wear a bikini or a burqa given her own ideas and inclinations.

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           1. Absolutely!! That’s my definition as well.

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     3. This comment deserves alot of attention. You’ve highlighted the inert problems with the feminist movement.

        Progressive sociologists have been trying to sell us the idea that humans come into the world as a blank slate, or an unprogrammed machine; but from a perspective of psychology and biology, this is simply not true. The general dynamics between men and women, both sexually and hierarchically are instinctive.

        The high-minded idea that we can change society so that it is fair to everyone and makes everyone feel safe and important all the time, is a delusion of grandure. The purpose of society is to create a system that allows people to accomplish greater goals, and also to minimize harm towards one another, despite our natural instinct.

        To say women are victims for being sexualized, is to accuse nature. We can’t just deny nature and the human male/female dynamic because we don’t like it, or it makes us uncomfortable. We are only human after all.

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        1. And what makes us human is our self-awareness. We are made to like sex and to appreciate one another as sexual creatures. We are not made to treat one another like sexual objects with no other reason for existence than to be toys for another’s pleasure. That’s what sexualization is, and it has nothing to do with nature. It’s a perversion of nature.

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357. Y’know, this may be an over simplification, but I’ve literally NEVER heard of a case where the kind of man that really NEEDED to read something like this ACTUALLY read it… There are good men out there and there are straight up dangerous, unsupportive jerks, and has this message ever landed on the desk or in the inbox of a jerk? Somehow I doubt it… Personally, I read this because I already care about these issues, and because I saw the link on a good friend’s (a female friend’s) Facebook page. Would any man who was PART of the problem ever even bother to click on the link? Probably not, which is why I always end up frustrated after reading posts like this, because this important message isn’t getting into the consciousness of people that probably REALLY need to absorb it… That said, my frustration exists on another level, as well. On a very critical level I get frustrated with how few people, men AND women, realize that these issues do not only affect women. There is very little said about how many MEN have to deal with this, how many MEN are negatively affected by sexism, objectification, etc. And though they affect both men and women (and those that do not easily fit into the binary) these issues aren’t even just human issues; the fundamental lack of respect and valuation of inherent right to dignity that is at the root of the problems women face now and throughout history do not, and please don’t crucify me for expressing this, but they do not affect JUST women. Consider how people, both men and women, have disrespected each other, animals, the Earth; a great many of the problems expressed in the original post have affected me, personally, for YEARS, most of my life, actually, and I’m a man from birth. I witnessed my mother beating my father growing up as a child. I’ve been objectified and disrespected over the years by both men and women, on the job and in the wider world, and been made to feel incredibly uncomfortable by it, and had to “de-escalate” to “keep the peace.” I have experienced so much of the content of the post above that in many ways I felt like it was MY story. My point is that though these things primarily happen to women, they also happen to others of different genders and even species and until we acknowledge that what is happening affects more than just women, what it actually IS and where it REALLY comes from, above and beyond rape culture or a long history of patriarchy, I don’t think we really have much of a chance at beating it, at defeating it utterly, once and for all time…

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358. Do women like it when men are attracted to them? Since men make good and bad approaches, would we be better off if men never expressed their attraction?

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     1. No, of course not.. but there is a difference between being entitled to a woman’s positive response, and just expressing interest, and letting her decide if she’s interested in you too.

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359. As a man I’m definitely disappointed to see some of the comments from some of the guys in here. The author’s whole point was that we need be humble and listen. Yes, men need to speak up about this too for change to happen, but first we need to let down our defenses and listen. I think a lot of guys who get defensive are the ones that notice that the things she was talking about are most true in them, which is why they feel the need to defend themselves. This stuff isn’t the most comfortable to read yes, but it is so necessary. And the real men out there need to man up, take responsibility, and face the hard realities out there. And then act to make real change.

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     1. And it’s men like you who make women feel a little safer to let their guard down in this world.

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     2. Ok I’ll bite. We listened. Now, what exactly are we supposed to do about it?

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360. I know it seems extreme, but if you really want to relieve women of the burden of living in fear, you should advocate for a society in which men and women live apart. A past girlfriend tried to commit suicide over feeling trapped between recurring sexual harassment at work and fear of disappointing her family if she lost her job. After that she did speak up and tell me about all the “little” things that add up, and I did listen. We had long discussions about these things for several months. The result was that, outside of the bare essentials of conducting business in stores and banks and such, I have not spoken to a woman in ten years because I came to understand that there is no place I can cast my eyes and no word I can speak and no body posture I can assume that will not contribute to the cumulative pressures and fears that women live with in our society.

     I’ve generally been one of those “good” guys you describe, all my life. I’m sensitive to the impacts of my actions on others, I never knowingly did the things you describe, and I don’t hang out with guys who act like that. That said, I did grew up in the same screwed up society you’re talking about and there’s no doubt I have some blind spots, and I’m not about to let those blind spots contribute to the cumulative pressures that might push them into the situation my girlfriend faced. I’m afraid to be friendly. I’m afraid to be polite. I’m afraid to do basic respectful things like look a woman in the eyes because that can be construed as being domineering. I listened and what I heard led me to the conclusion that a moral man cannot allow himself to be present in womens’ lives any more than necessary, and a sane woman would not allow men in her life. However I am certain that men are not moral enough and women are not sane enough for that to ever become the norm.

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361. I think one of the most crucial points made in this article is that many women come to their teen years already sexulized. Breast developement happens to most women when they are a child.
     I am 55 and still remember being at a fair touring the fruits and vegetable section. Someone was handing out home grown stickers to kids, I was 11 or 12 years old. I was pretty unaware because heck I was a kid. A group of twenty something guys strolled by one of them said ” Did you grow those at home?” The rest of them laughed. It took me a second to realize, it changed in an instance, how I felt about myself. Seems like something that means nothing, just rude behaviour, but you would be wrong to think so. I will never no what stuff like this cost me, who might I have been?
     We do things to boys too I know that for sure. Like be a man, don’t be soft, no crying put up with violence this patriarchal society exacts a price from all of us.
     Give women credit though for knowing our own experience, how we chose to tell it is really up to us.

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     1. Typos grrrrrrrr

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362. to me sexual violence is the most serious crime, and it is very actual problem right now at the world level, and it is essential to discuss about this problem and working for improving this reality. although there is one point, which the authors have been missing while discussing about this problem. expression of sexual interest shouldn’t be misinterpreted with sexual violence, It is natural having sexual interest and expressing them (It is normal that men are expressing their sexual interest just like women, just like gays, just like lesbians are doing so). It is one the of main characteristic of human being. and by oppressing this we are oppressing human’s sexuality in general, which would bring bad results.

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     1. yes, yes 🙂
        i would never want to live in a world where men are afraid to approach a woman, afraid of her reaction, afraid of causing harm by looking, by speaking, etc.
        i am a type of woman that can take lots and not be offended, just play with people. i enjoy it. it is one of the things that give sparkle to life, the flirting, the inappropriateness, the walking on the boundaries, a slight sexual tension, a mutual recognition that no, we are not just working money-making machines… we also and most importantly are sexual beings.
        a world without this would be so gray…

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        1. I’m glad, that you are writing this

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363. Hi Gretchen Kelly,

     And thank you to share your experience. I believe this is helpful and necessary. I, myself, have never acted in a disrespectful manner towards a women (actually, I’m hoping to act respectfully towards anybody, gender aside). But, the more I read (and talk with women) about it, the more I get aware about it and the more I want to fight it.

     A few years back, I might have been one of those guys saying: “No way, that can’t be that often!” as I don’t witness it and, just like you, my friends are not that kind of guys. And my wife (and she’s pretty!) does not witness it… that often (which is already an infinity more than me… but I’m not pretty!). But how can we, normal men, help if we are not fully aware of the problem?

     So yes, men need to be fully aware of those problems, so that we can fight this back together: not women against men, but humans against old fashionned ways.

     So again, thank you! You are helping, a lot.
     Vincent

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364. These thoughts you describe are of course perfectly natural and useful for survival, but it is also beneficial to realise them as just thoughts and not to allow them to be overwhelming to the negation of peace and freedom in day to day life. After all, in the eventuality that something terrible was to happen, how much difference are all those minutes, hours, months, years of worrying going to make? On a similar theme, if I watch the news constantly telling me about terrorism, every train ride becomes a time where my mind is consumed with thoughts and suspicions of a seemingly inevitable attack. But, if I can become less identified with the habitual worries through greater awareness and clarity of mind, suddenly I see that not only can I achieve more peace and freedom in my daily life but I am actually more prepared for any such situation both in it’s occurrence and also in the aftermath where coming to terms with what has happened requires the psychological clarity which a habitually worrying mind fails to find. At the broadest level I do not believe this is about men or women being clued up, per se, but human interaction in general and an evolution of that interaction acquired through continued education and awareness from and for all human beings. Many men are also much more sensitive than they are willing to admit or even aware of. By making this an issue about scary bad guys, one can have no chance of getting to the underlying social factors which create the conditions for such behaviour to manifest. Such factors are the most important things to understand and transform if there is any chance of resolving such issues. For instance, it could well be that many of the ugly factors of some men’s behaviours can be attributed to the way they failed to deal emotionally with the way that the women that they liked in the past acted towards them, which is, as is well articulated in this piece, influenced by the way men act towards those women, and so on and so on. Yes, men should be more aware of these factors, but, perhaps more pertinently, we all need to be more aware of ourselves as incredibly complex beings.

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365. It pains me just how true this is, how true it is that not all people are willing to listen either. How ready people are willing to dismiss it the minute they know it’s something about sexism. I’m tired of feeling weak, I’m tired of every day being a battle, of being hollered at each time I walk to the train, even when I was fourteen and the men were in their forties, I’m tired of being told by the strong women in my life “That’s just the way it is,” Why? Why do we have to accept this? Why was I scoffed at when I told a fellow 12 year old what a boy in my class did to me and she just responded “Yeah he’s weird like that.” Why did people say I was weird when all I wanted was not to be belittled or expected to give men anything they want just because I was meak in class? I am done being meak. I am sick of being quiet. I am tired of being abused and I am through with with accepting cruelty. I will shout and I will scream. I will throw a Goddamn tantrum if that what it takes to fix this. I suggest others to do the same. If we are not passionate and aggressive about this it will be thrown to the side lines, while at the same time if we simply act like we have authority like a man we will be dismissed as a bitch. It will be hard and it’ll take a while, but it will get better everyday if both sides work to fix it. Even if you’re one person, don’t just agree with it, don’t just talk about it, do something any chance you get no matter how small the chance may seem, because no matter how many times you tell yourself, someone else isn’t always there to do it instead. There isn’t always someone else to pick up the torch, don’t wait around to learn that the hard way. Be the change you want to see, because honestly, you might be the only chance some poor person has out there, don’t wait anymore.

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366. This! This is life for us. To be raped by someone who thinks it is his right. To be cornered against washing machines just for trying to visit a friend. To have to laugh off the customer who hits on you inappropriately on the phone so that you don’t get a bad customer rating that affects your paycheck. To have to block men online and in FB for being verbally abusive because you tell them you’re not interested. To question the motives of any man who does contact you on FB because every time you try to be nice, he inevitably IS just trying to find someone to play around with online. To be constantly questioned, gaslighted into thinking everything is your fault somehow, and to de-escalate situations with your friends, spouses, boyfriends etc because their anger could be dangerous. This is the life of being female. This is reality. I know hardly any women who have not been verbally or sexually abused. As I get older, that number of women who haven’t encountered it goes down and down. I fear for my daughter.

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     1. My life too, I’m a 40 year old male, when I was younger, early 20’s I was considered by many women to be hot, or very cute. I was hit on by women, I was cornered at work, more then one time. I was asked once by a co-worker to help her paint her ceiling in her house. When she asked me what I wanted for payment I said not sure, but not much, when I got to her house, she wanted to pay me, but not in money, I was married then and I still am today, I refused her, she was very embarrassed but this did not stop her, she harassed me, and told another co worker about how much she want to F— me!! Needless to say, that coworker moved on and I have never heard from her since. I did not turn her in for harassment because I did not feel harassed, I felt maybe flattered, but in the some way maybe shocked.
        Our secretary cornered me in my office and told me she really wanted to be with me, she asked me how that made me feel? I distinctly said, I’m married, how would you expect me to feel about this? Her reply was your a guy, your suppose to want me… right? She said it would be fine, men do it all the time. I replied with, well I’m not just any guy. I did not turn her in for harassment, never felt harassed, no need to do that. My tolerance for this kind of stuff is very high I guess.
        Several years later, I was approached by a student, ( I worked at a college), the student was not even my student, but insisted to come to my office every Thursday to talk about whatever. Following the convention of the day, we were encouraged to engage students in conversations, and in many ways help them if they needed help or encourage them. Without divulging too many details, this young woman threatened me with a knife, and demanded for me to show her my D—. When I refused and calmly asked for her to leave, she told me no, and that her next thing to do was to tell the department chair I was demanding sex from her. I told her, no your not, just put the knife down and leave, please never return. She started to cry, and left. At the time, I figured she was confused, and maybe a little bit disturbed.
        In disbelief I went immediately to a colleague down the hall. He insisted I turn her in, but I did not. My biggest mistake in this was not to turn her in for harassment. Seven years went by, and one day I was called by HR. They wanted to talk to me about a charge brought against me and asked me if I knew a student, they showed me her name, and then a picture. I was shocked, this student, who did not graduate, seven years later wanted to press charges against me for something I did not do. At this point, I could see my whole career go down the tubes, At that time I had three kids, and a wife, (I’m still marred to same wonderful women) I could just see everything crashing down on me. Because I have seen this happen to many men guilty or not lose everything just because a women yells rape, or accuses them of such. NOT DISCOUNTING RAPE AT ALL!!!
        This student, said I raped her, that I exposed myself, and used a knife to force her to do things she did not want. My only saving grace was honesty, and my colleague, and the 50+ other people I told this story to. I would tell this story to lots of people and I called the girl “knife girl” it became a joke in many ways. The day it happen I told my wife and she is the one who called her “knife girl”. After many witness were called in, the student realized she was not going to win, admitted to fabricating most of the story. but did not admit to threatening me. The university dropped the who thing. But…
        I was still in trouble, I was told that if I knew she had a knife and did not turn her in. I was aiding in the possible injury or murder of another student or member of the university. While I could have been reprimanded with a suspension, or leave without pay, I was, instead, shamed and treated like I did such a bad thing by not turning her in. The physical, and mental stress this created for me literally almost killed me. I did not eat, I could not sleep, and I started to drink, and use drugs. I was closing myself off from my family and the ones I love. I ignored everyone, I was consumed, scared, afraid of losing everyone and everything I had. Just because I did not turn her in when it happen. How could I have made such a mistake!!! One night at home during this ordeal, I seriously considered ending my life. Lucky I did not, I eventaully had to seek help, and learn to heal, it took me 3 years but I can say today I am now over the who thing. I now have 4 very wonderful and beautiful boys and one awesome perfect wife!
        I tell this story because while many women feel they have to do what the author says they do, in many way there are lots of men who have to too. At the end of day, my take home from my experience is to report everything that happens even if it does not really bother you. If you don’t no one will know…..and who knows what might happen.

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367. Reblogged this on My mind, you matter and commented:
     Some of this is tough to read, but I think it’s a really good post which is why I’ve reblogged it. It’s more than just listening that’s needed, though that’s a good start. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again: we shouldn’t have to teach girls how to avoid being attacked and raped, we should be teaching the attackers and rapists that their behaviour is wrong and that they shouldn’t be doing these things.

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     1. We shouldn’t have to, but it ‘is’ necessary. It doesn’t pay to live in fear, but it doesn’t hurt to be aware in a world of potential hostility. Kids in school are taught to avoid drugs, not to break laws, to respect their peers. Despite this, a number of people I went to school with got into drugs, broke the law, and in some cases ended up dead. I can say as a male, I ‘was’ taught that such disgusting behavior is wrong, and I like to think I set a decent example for those around me. However, others were taught the same. Doesn’t mean they’ll turn out an angel. So in those cases where these teachings (yes their focus does need to be improved) have failed, girls/women should still be aware. I don’t think it’s right. I wish they didn’t have to, but I don’t believe there will be a day when all aggressors in our world will be pacified.

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        1. Thanks for stopping by and commenting. We may never reach that day, but by raising awareness and by having more men speaking out publicly against this behaviour we can start to push sexism and its associated behaviours and beliefs out of “normal” society. If it becomes something we talk about openly, and the perpetrators find that people don’t join in when they’re catcalling or wolf whistling, if they’re actually told at the time that what they’re doing is wrong, then maybe that’s a start. Sitting in a corner hoping it’ll go away because we’ve been educated properly doesn’t solve the problem.

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           1. Very true. You make a good point. I have heard that in one instance of cat-calling, a man nearby went up and simply asked the culprit, “Why do you do that?” which apparently caught him off guard. Brief discussion ensued and the other man walked away with a new realization, so that there is a testament. You’re right in that not committing to a tactic, or somewhat disregarding it if you will, is counterproductive, or well, stupid.
              I misspoke or maybe miscommunicated. I was not trying to say that we should just rely on education to resolve the problem, or sit in a corner. I was rather suggesting that we should not back down in teachings of awareness to girls or women in lieu of another tactic or hope in how we think things ‘should’ be. If I misinterpreted, then apologies. Either way we’re on the same side, and I believe by now we’re on the same page.
              This post is fairly awakening and powerful. I’ve always understood these things happen but having never walked in a woman’s shoes before it never occurred to me just how frequent and pervasive the behaviour is. Again, very eye-opening. Thank you.

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     2. I promise we’re not all predatory douches that do this kind of shit.this stuff makes me cringe as well. I’m not sure what makes a guy do this type of stuff and think its ok.part of me hopes its just dumb guys, but I’m pretty sure human guys are mostly just that terrible that they don’t consider the girls they harass to be anything but objects.i don’t see a simple solution to this, and i think it falls into the same category as racism. it is going to take generations of people being educated and having the behavior be not tolerated to make a dent and make girls lives noticeably easier. but please keep fighting when safe and tell the guys to fuck off that call you a bitch.

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        1. Thanks for stopping by. I am also a guy, and I think it’s important that we stand up and be counted. It’s only by talking about and standing against this sort of behaviour that any kind of change will happen.

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        2. Wow and thanks, just thanks. I have always drawn parallels between sexism and racism as well. After all, it’s about a power structure that will only change when more women get to own the resources, write the rules, and call the shots. We have a long way to go and it won’t change until men have an emotional evolution and see women as human, as contributors to the bigger picture, and are willing to share it as equals.

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        3. PS. There is a level of irony in your message of support and the use of douche in the same breath…

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     3. I shouldn’t have to lock my door when I leave the house in the morning, either. Welcome to the real world, where bad people exist. But the fear of bad things happening doesn’t mean they ARE happening. I could probably leave my door unlocked forever and never have a breakin. These are precautions, not a social commentary.

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368. I’m a man and I enjoyed reading this article. Enlightening and I’ve taken something out of it that I hope will make me a better person.

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     1. I didn’t enjoy reading this. I found, after many years of marriage, that I have been unaware of what women go through. What my wife has been through. It answers many questions. The finger is pointed at me, because I had no idea and it questions whether I care. I don’t know what it is like to suffer this and, because it’s been kept quiet, I haven’t appreciated what my wife and daughters have probably been through. Not enjoyable, but eye-opening.

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369. I emailed this link to my husband and 2 teenage boys and only added 1 word, READ, I feel the men in my life are pretty enlightened, and we have these conversations at home, but you said it so much better and more completely than I ever could. Thank you.

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370. Well stated! All true.

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371. “…a lot of guys may be unaware of this….But they likely have no idea how often it happens. That it colors much of what we say or do and how we do it.”

     And this, I think, is the whole point of it: exposure. The more we are all exposed to these silent, secret oppressions, the more we all will find it unacceptable to stand by idly on the sidelines. The “Women’s Movement,” as some would call it, isn’t just agitation by women in the service of women. This is a human movement. If you accept the tenants of humanism and equal rights for everyone, then the equipment between your legs becomes irrelevant—at least in terms of whether you’re willing to put your hand on the plow to help sow a more just and equitable world. For all colors, all sexes, all gender expressions and persuasions. If you’re just white and male and happy to defend your blind privilege, then clearly we all have more work to do.

     I’m white and male. And for a long time I remained blind to the privilege my accidental position engendered. But that shit is changing—for me and for a great many others. In large part that’s due to exposure to the work of Ms. Kelly here as well as to the words and the works of a thousand others.

     I for one am listening. And that act of listening is making a difference.

     ~R. Kelly Liggin

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372. When I was 25 and engaged to be married, a co-worker pulled me into his lap as he sat in his chair and asked what I was going to wear during the honeymoon. I grimaced and got up but said nothing. The same co-worker slid a lingerie catalog toward me on my desk a few weeks later and winked. I tossed it back and said nothing.
     Older and wiser now, I would speak up. I would call him out. I would shame him. But at 25, I said nothing. At 52, I cringe at those memories.

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     1. Don’t beat yourself up over that, Mandy. Your reaction was perfectly fine – quietly not engaging. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s your job to shame every jerk, perv or rude people out of existence. It’s not. And it wouldn’t help if you did, because jerks and jerks and will always be jerks. If you had said something, he probably would have responded something like douchey like “Oh, someone’s on her period!”, laughed and walked out of the room and you’d feel even worse.

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373. This is an extremely important article! Though tough to stomach, it really brings to light some big issues that no one talks about but should! It’s amazing to think just how much we do this kind of thing, just to keep the peace or because lashing out would make us seem unattractive, or make the man turn on us in a nasty way. No one wants THAT kind of attention in public, so we brush it off. But I have certainly fantasized about screaming back at a group of tradesmen (typically the worst offenders!) in the most vile and ‘ugly’ way, like a raving lunatic, to shock them into thinking twice before humiliating me in public again. It’s not on. Especially when I’m with my young daughter. Show some goddamn respect!

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374. Hey Gretchen!

     I really appreciated this post. It characterized the lives of women from a perspective that many men never take the time to consider.

     However, I wonder whether you’d consider an opposing view.

     In his landmark piece, The Myth of Male Power, prominent Women’s Studies professor Warren Farrell notes the following about the current state of men:

     – A glass ceiling has consigned an overwhelming majority of men to 24 of the 25 most dangerous jobs, many of which are absolutely crucial to our society’s functioning but are stigmatized for their undesirable characteristics (think garbage collectors).

     – On average, men die younger, work longer hours (which means more time away from family), and lose their children and assets to divorce in the majority of divorce trials.

     – Men have historically been expected to subject themselves to the draft during war time, and have exchanged their lives and psychological health for useless trinkets such as the Purple Heart and Medal of Honor. Millions of men have given their lives against their will, just so a bunch of academics could sit in their armchairs, opining about male hegemony and the plight of women. Just so you could blog about how women have it so much worse than we do…

     – Men are frequently perceived as weak or are subjected to homophobic slurs for sharing their feelings.

     – Men are often expected to act as unpaid bodyguards for women in distress; this can be observed not only in numerous films, books, and works of art, but also in real life.

     – Men are FAR more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than women, but you don’t catch us looking over our shoulder on our way to our cars, lest our peers label us a “pussy” for expressing an emotion as wretched and emasculating as fear.

     The list goes on, and on, and on…

     So, while I appreciate your post for its gravitas and heartfelt sincerity, it hardly presents a fresh POV on the situation. Woman and men have both been fervently discussing women’s rights issues since the 1960s. No one, however, has acknowledged the trials of men. Unless both genders’ trials are acknowledged equally, no one wins. We all lose.

     Sincerely,

     Timothy John Rabb

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     1. > Woman and men have both been fervently discussing women’s rights issues since the 1960s. No one, however, has acknowledged the trials of men. Unless both genders’ trials are acknowledged equally, no one wins. We all lose.

        That is simply not true. No one is saying that men don’t face any difficulties or sexism and MANY people HAVE acknowledged the trials of men; the article is just not focused on that. Why should this article be required to give equal focus to men’s troubles? If someone were to write a post about their experience with racism as an African American, would you insist that they include the points of view of Iranian Americans, or Indian Americans, or Chinese Americans? Heck, since we’re talking about discrimination, should they also be required to discuss sexism, homophobia, agism, transphobia, etc? No, of course not. Because that is not what the article is about. It it is addressing a particular topic.

        Unless you see somewhere in this article a statement of the effect of “Men don’t face any sexism or discrimination whatsoever”, your comment just shows that you think men always need to be the center of attention. And if someone posts an article about issues that they and people like them have experienced, and you come in with “WHAT ABOUT MEN? WE HAVE IT HARD TOO! YOU OBVIOUSLY DON’T CARE!” Well, that just is going to keep people from taking you seriously.

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        1. This comment just goes to show that there exists a tremendous double standard when it comes to realities of sexism. Some men may very well want to be the center of attention, but after literally DECADES of having the focus of these types of injustices and disrespectful types of treatment being on women, it’s kind of empowering to hear men speaking up and out about how these issues affect them. As I said in my previous comment, these issue are HUMAN issues, and to invalidate the struggles or experiences of one class or gender just goes to show how ignorant and selfish you truly are. How would you like it if YOUR experience were invalidated just s much as you just invalidated the experiences of men? It’s sad…

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           1. Nobody is invalidating anyone’s experiences. Like you said, this is a human issue. The point of this article is not to invalidate whatever experience anyone has had, it is to start a dialogue.
              Now think of how it would sound if it were a race issue: “oh poor me, I’m a blue eyed, blonde haired white person and I have so many problems because of that. Because people who don’t look like me think I have it better than them and that makes me a victim because I have so many problems”. Jesus Christ. Grow up.

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           2. Umm decades? You’re bitching about decades? Try centuries. Women have historically been the most discriminated against demographic ever. Seriously, since things were recorded. Don’t act like a decade or 5 or 6 count in the recorded history of mankind.

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              1. Anonymous, I’m not commenting on the main article at this point. If you’d paid attn. to WHERE my comment was posted, as a response to a specific comment, a tangent off of the MAIN article, you would see that my assertions about the invalidation of mens’ experiences are actually relevant in that context. You should read more carefully. Now, had I made that comment in response to the ORIGINAL article, then yes, you would be absolutely right in your “Jesus Christ. Grow up” comment, albeit rude and unconstructive. And when I say “decades,” I’m referring to being 41 and having gone through numerous gender and women’s studies courses over the course of my diverse education and not only has the overlap between the struggles of men AND women EVER been addressed in one of those classes, as the HUMAN issue that it is, I have never even SEEN a course that delved into the issues men have had to deal with in this regard. Again, a HUMAN issue, and addressing it that way might actually lead to some real solutions and TRUE equality. To never see it talked about or included in the overall discourse IS a form of invalidation, or do you think benign neglect is a fabrication of the selfish and childish?

           3. Mr ‘Edgeworth’

              How is educating people on an indivials perception supported by amassed anecdotal evidence, stats and personal experience invalidating men? And class? And humans?!?!

              What you’re engaging in (if you truly are so pious as to condescend to speak and consider HUMANS, oh! And class oh! And men.) is extreme bias to prove a point. Read the title: What people don’t know women do. Not dogs. Not middle class humans, not penguins and yes, I am sorry, not men. The author may choose to focus on a subject that touches men or class another day, she may have already? Have you bothered to check?

              Addressing sexism towards women and how we are socialised to and re-program ourselves to overlook/be silent about it is yes, geared towards women’s responses on a behavioural level. And goes one better to empower us to be vocal. I had a sleazy math tutor at 12, a co-worker 17, a stalker ex, many forms of harassment and cruelty from jilted would be men and the list goes on. Was it wrong and weren’t they responsible? Yes. But I, as many women do, feared the repercussions of standing up for myself.

              I took it and breezed past and minimised it. Tried to pretend nothing was happening.
              The author is correct. No, it’s not your fault but yes, we can take steps to reclaim our power. (Just for you Edgeworth, I mean personal power not power over men, chill)
              I want my daughter to be vocal. To know that ignoring or smiling through things out of fear is not acceptable and that she has a right to feel valued and safe around men. Because a lot of good men do this and I empathise with their qualms on gender as they do mine. But if I want to speak out on my experience as a woman to educate and discourage silence and feel heard? I will.
              That does not invalidate men and their rights and needs. It just so happens this particular writer in this particular instance wants to write about what she wants, it is opinion, fact, passion.

              Next time you decide to so much as breathe in the general direction of voicing your opinion on a matter of weight to you, excuse me while I persecute you for not making it about what I’d prefer. (Which would be any form of sugary dessert) BECAUSE HOW DARE YOU THAT’S NOT ETHICAL YOU’RE EXCLUDING DESSERT LOVERS
              🙁

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     2. Sorry, but you’re just whining. It’s nothing like what women go through daily, and some of your claims are questionable. Men aren’t really on trial when almost everything still goes their way and they don’t even have to grow up and take responsibility if they don’t want to. It’s still very much a man’s world. it is not at all equal.

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     3. Have to agree with “thelistlessdisbeliever”. I would like to think that I’m aware of feelings of the opposite gender and the struggles to de-escalate every situation even if it warrants escalation. But.. when I read articles like this I just keep thinking that people who like this article don’t want “equality”, they want things to be better for women. They don’t want women to server the same sentences in jail as men do, or have to be drafted, or get 0 days off work for parental bonding, or be expected to hold doors for strangers or know how to fix a broken car. They want everything to be the same but things to improve for them. Even if that’s not true, that’s what this reads like.

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        1. FFS
           an article on women’s experience and some men just can’t help themselves from saying “what about the menz boo fucking hoo”. seriously.
           where in this article does it say men don’t have it hard? or men don’t have issues? it doesn’t. where in this article does it say women don’t want to fix a bloody car or do military service? it doesn’t.
           is it so hard to LISTEN when an article asks repeatedly that that is all we men have to do to actually learn something of the experiences of women…is it so difficult…do you think your penis will fall off if you actually stop and listen to a woman talk about her experiences?
           the article asks men to listen and some men can’t help but see that as threatening, and i think that is a serious if not the most serious issue facing men today.

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        2. First: the original commentator was much more eloquent.
           Second: I’m a woman. I open doors for strangers. I give up my seat in the bus to whomever may need it more than I. I know how to change a tire and would gladly stop to help anyone who doesn’t know how, regardless of gender.
           Third: IT ISN’T A CONTEST. Men and women aren’t in competition with one another over who has it worse. That’s the point. Equality.
           Fourth: Yes, men are more likely to have more dangerous jobs, but how many women are unemployed and willing to do those jobs, but can’t get them because they’re women? Who said anything about prison sentences? Many countries also have paternity leave.
           Not to mention….yeah, that’s the point of gender equality. We want to be treated the same as men. So yeah, we want things to stay the same for men, and for things to get better for women. Because otherwise it’s not equality, it’s just upwards mobility for all involved. Which may seem like a good thing, but again….not equality.
           In short: you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.

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     4. I’d like to know where the researcher got his statistics on divorce. I had a major decline in lifestyle and security when my husband of 30 years left me after cheating on me for years. I stayed home so I haven’t been able to find a job (including fast food places). As of 1-1-16 I will have no health insurance and I have diabetes. I do not know of a single woman whose life was financially enhanced by divorce and I think statistics will support that fact.

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        1. That really is a shame that that happened to you, and that that is your situation, I’m sorry…

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     5. Dude, you’re an idiot. To pretend that men have it as hard as women, is willfully ignorant.

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        1. nah. you’re an idiot. (but not really. i’m just mirroring your unjustified insult back to you.)

           not all men have it the same. and not all women either.
           as a women, i have it really easier than a lot of men i know.

           and for speaking ”generally” it really depends into what you take into consideration in your comparison. we are different. we have different weaknesses. we have different advantages.
           very often, when we say the opposite sex than us have it easier, it is a case of ”the grass is always greener on the other side”… 😉
           how about recognize what you have and work to make the most of it. not try to be who you are not. but develop your own powers. women actually are powerful, just not in the way most people are used to expect power to look like.
           as it’s been said before, this is not a competition as to who is more oppressed. we face different challenges. men need to listen to women. women need to listen to men. together we can make this life better.

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     6. Dude, it was International Men’s Day last week, http://www.internationalmensday.com/
        where the goal was to address some of the issues you’ve mentioned. So your claim that no one is worried/thinking/working on the issues that men face is bogus – and if you want to draw more attention to, for instance, men having trouble expressing their feelings out of fear of being called a pussy, it’s more constructive to write your own blog posts about that than to comment on someone else’s.

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     7. You do realize that points you describe are mostly perpetuated by men or created by men, right? It’s that sex that has created most of those standards, not women.

        No one here is saying that men don’t face aggressions or double standards themselves (and that was especially not said in the piece). So why is your comment an “opposing” viewpoint? Can’t both this article and the points you’ve identified be true?

        And why, when reading a post about difficulties women face every day did you feel defensive enough to post a counter argument about how men face sexism.

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375. Reblogged this on unilagfbi.

     Reply

376. I’m not really “enlightened” by this. I’m not really angered. I see it happen, I stick my neck out, then get attacked by some other woman for being a sexist…a misogynist, because I didn’t give her the opportunity to defend herself. I can’t really afford to get out and meet women, so constantly getting attacked pretty much sums up my interactions with women…I also work in hospitality, so think about the time you last had an interaction with a hotelier…some guy grabbed your ass? Shit, you’ll be dating him in four weeks, wondering why he’s such an asshole. Then you laugh at the guy holding the door for the two of you while you’re entering the restaurant. I don’t feel bad for doing it…it was never about condescension, as the feminist code would have you believe…it was about humility. Do I care that you were sexualized by a male at thirteen? Nope. Welcome to history. I’m handsome, thirty five, and single and I can’t get somebody to do that for me.
     Calling somebody sweetheart, do I care that some guy did this? Nope. Personally, I don’t see this as a particularly hurtful slur…it actually says you are sweet AND acknowledges you have a heart (something we both know is probably not true)…both insinuations are right there in the word.
     De-escalating…let’s talk about that. We get insulted by a woman at least twice an hour…and that’s by far in the LOW end…we overlook it, because most of the women doing these attacks genuinely don’t know the whole story of what happened to us out what went wrong that we had to fix for them to be comfortable…they just do it. They’re justified, because they’re women, and they’re “allowed” to say things like that. And then there’s the men. The women offended will send their husbands to us, no matter what line of work…and their husbands will threaten our livelihood, our health, or even our lives to get what their wives want. You think I’m kidding? Ask your husbands the last time it happened..I’ll bet he’l be able to recall with great efficacy the incident in question. So you really want to talk about de-escalating, or were you just kidding?
     Listening. On to that. Yes I constantly listen. To women. Bald, ugly, overweight, over-sensitive, neurotic, horrifying, begrudgingly hypocritical women. I never mention how I feel to them, why would I do that? So I can be a misogynist? They’ll jump right to that, because I’m none of the above, but they’re projecting their own inadequacies on me as though it was me who caused them. I go to church. Or at least, I used to, before I realized there’s no God up there….because no matter how hard I try, no change can be made. I am handsome, so those inadequacies…they shoot forth from a woman’s intimidation, caused in part by poorly worded articles. So no matter what I say, feminist or not, I’m that guy who grabbed your ass, or asked you what you were wearing on your wedding night, even before you’ve met me…even though I’m quietly sitting at the Starbucks reading…your assumption gets me barred from my only place of calm for life or or gets me arrested…wrongfully. Or what else? This could go so much further…arrest, sentencing, years of life taken from a guy who was just reading his book while some other jack-ass decided to take a handful of what was not his to take…and now some random man is labeled as a sex offender…the wrong man, because of some woman’s neuroses.

     Reply

     1. This entire comment was useless and anecdotal, and brought absolutely nothing to the conversation.
        – You tried to make feminism about yourself, which is why you will always fail at feminism.
        – You tried to make being nice to women about women being nice to YOU, which is why you will always fail at making women be nice to you.

        You’re a gross human being and reading this literally made me feel dirty. You have issues, dude.

        Reply

        1. And because of bitches like you, he’ll stop trying. And then he’ll join the red pill, which is what women really want.

           Reddit.com/r/theredpill

           Reply

           1. Dude, not helpful. Disagree if you like but at least have something constructive to say.

              Reply

              1. theredpill is saying something constructive, actually.

     2. You’re coming across as angry and unstable. You sound like you need to speak to a professional and get some help with your self-esteem. Nobody is entitled to a partner, life doesn’t owe you a spouse. Many people will spend their lives single and there’s nothing wrong with that. You need to come to terms with this idea and stop this hostility towards women, it will get you nowhere.

        Reply

        1. nou need to……. lol… stop being so… paternalist ? maternalist ? uhm whatever it is you are doing by telling another person unrequested advice on what they need to do.

           Reply

     3. http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/32-types-anti-feminists/

        Reply

377. Gretchen this is probably the most beautiful writen and mind changing article I have read in the past decade. I actually while reading this was vicoursiously living through others who are close to me and started feeling emotions that I would have never experienced my self my entire natural existence.

     My name is Mike I am a 25 year old heterosexual male. I have been acused of being a bit of a flirt at times and did not see more harm or foul in it because I was assuming that I only said nice things, kept my hands to myself and never had anyone call me out that everthing was OK. Wow was I ever wrong. A simple comment that slips off my tounge without thought of recourse because in my mind I thought it was a compliment and made someone’s day caused a whole thought process of desalination. I am to ashamed to even quote myself right now.

     Being that this is accepted in our westernized society because that’s how our parents, grandparents and so on where raised is a disturbing fact. Anyone who ever tried to fight for change was dismissed, deemed a crazy overzealous feminist or worse diagnosed to have psychological issues that needed to be suspressed with medication. How demoralizing is this?

     Just because this is how us humans are naturally and society quietly accepts this in fear of opening a can worms that we are not ready to deal with does not make it right. We should not let centuries of society’s stubborn protocol stop change from happening. It is 2015 we are in the 21 century think of all the change we have seen since the new millennium. Who’s to say we can’t experience a change with how woman are treated in regards to their sexual expression without having to deal with the potential “recourse”.

     Change can be slow, change can be exhausting but change is always a possibility no matter what the current state is. This kind of change may not take full affect in this generation or even the next but it’s worth starting the process for them. Share this article with others I believe there are more people who will be moved like me.

     Even if any big change does not come out of this at least my perspective changed. I promise I will more be conscience of my thoughts and words. I will support women who stand up for themselves and not just assume they are just having a bad day and looking for a outlet to vent thier frustration. If and when I decide to raise a child I will pass these lessons on to them. I can promise after today there is at least one less reason to question how you choose to express yourself.

     Thank you

     Reply

     1. Sounds like you are a beta bitch.

        Reply

        1. Actually more of an alpha. I just am a lot more comfortable with expressing myself than most insecure alphas are. Also I’m not afraid of women being empowered in fact I embrace it cause I like seeing the reaction of people who get squeamish at the very thought of it.

           Reply

           1. You sound like a pussy. Like a pathetic grovelling pathetic excuse of a man. Stop it. You’re embarrassing yourself.

              Reply

              1. You sound like an asshole, pathetic excuse for a human being. Stop it. You’re depressing everyone.

           2. hum i don’t get an alpha feeling from you at all.
              more like a bootlicker.
              some women like that i guess. 😛

              Reply

              1. I get a fecal feeling from you. More like a turd. Some people like that, I guess.

              2. go take a shit you’ll feel better 🙂
                 i love you too.

              3. Don’t need to take one. You’re right in front of me.
                 I reciprocate your expression of affection.

        2. Troll.

           Reply

     2. Thanks for saying that Mike, I was starting to lose faith in this comment thread.
        Don’t listen to the trolls, many women experience this in everyday life and feel this way about it.
        If people listened, accepted and acted instead of degrading the experiences reflected in this piece or trying to change the subject and took small steps in their everyday life to push forward change, like you’ve said you will, the world would be a better place.

        Reply

378. umm super over dramatic and idiotic article. Please keep all this shit bottled up in your head!

     Reply

379. Partly the reason women don’t say anything is because when we tell people we love that somebody hurt us, being dismissed can feel almost as bad or worse than the initial ass grab or catcall.

     Reply

380. I am also a white msle, and found this article enlightening. No one has the right to force themselves on another, or to make off color remarks or lewd suggestions. That being said, the reality of our species is that males and females are wired differently, and some men are less adept at controlling themselves than others. I will also concede, before I make my point, that there are dome depraved soils out there who would behave badly towards as n 80 year old woman wearing a mother Hubbard dress, as my grandmother used to wear. That all being said, it is also fair to note that some women dress in a manner that broadcasts their sexuality everyehere. Everywhere you look, you see jeans so tight you can read the dates of the coins she has in her pocket, open an c loose blouses revealing more than they should, or skirts so short and tight they’d make a streetwalker blush.

     Even if an attractive woman is walking down the street in a wet tees hurt and nothing more. no one has the right to put their hands on her or accosted her on any way. But why invite it? What you wear is how you present yourself to the world. In short. if you don’t 2any me to notice it and aren’t prepared for my reaction to it, don’t show it to me.

     Reply

     1. If we step back and ask why female sexuality is shameful and should be covered up…why men can be topless and women cant…and why dressing in a ‘provocative’ manner is an invitation for harassment..it seems there is a double standard here. Men are not criticized nearly as much for their clothing choices, nor harassed on the street. A century ago men were also not allowed topless at beaches because it was considered obscene. They won legal rights to be topless and now no one bats an eye. A woman would get a very different response for doing the same thing. We could all try to understand where our social norms come from and decide whether we want to perpetuate them or not.

        Reply

        1. beach attire is an interesting thing. in many places of europe a women can go on the beach topless, and it is considered normal. i have sunbathed in just a string bathing suit bottom, and while some people looked while walking by (hey, it’s the beach, we enjoy the view), it was considered perfectly acceptable because i was discrete and modest in my behavior. what interested me is that the male friend who was accompanying me also was wearing a thong bathing suit, and that did not pass. some women on the beach were laughing at him, and not discretely at all. looking around, we saw most women barely covered… and men all wearing those heavy bermuda bathing suits.
           interesting cultural double standards here…

           Reply

381. Good, bloody job well done. I’ve often tried to find the words to explain to men why I choose to have a cold, stoic exterior over who I actually am. Not a lot of men, would understand that like other women, I’ve been catcalled since I was eight, before I even had breast. Not a lot of men, would get that I’d rather look ready to punch someone, then let my guard down, because at a previous job I was harassed by a co-worker, and felt that I couldn’t say anything, because the work culture was a decidedly sexist one where a girl’s hickie was more problematic, then a male coworker telling a female coworker, “I bet your pussy can get really wet. And because of comments such as “Super over dramatic and idiot article” there are also a lot of women, who ignore everyday sexism and side with misogyny, because ignoring the everyday truth that we still are treated like doormats with vaginas attached, is too hard of a pill to swallow.

     Reply

382. Reblogged this on grapefruitviolins and commented:
     Scarily spot on.

     Reply

383. My life too, I’m a 40 year old male, when I was younger, early 20’s I was considered by many women to be hot, or very cute. I was hit on by women, I was cornered at work, more then one time. I was asked once by a co-worker to help her paint her ceiling in her house. When she asked me what I wanted for payment I said not sure, but not much, when I got to her house, she wanted to pay me, but not in money, I was married then and I still am today, I refused her, she was very embarrassed but this did not stop her, she harassed me, and told another co worker about how much she want to F— me!! Needless to say, that coworker moved on and I have never heard from her since. I did not turn her in for harassment because I did not feel harassed, I felt maybe flattered, but in the some way maybe shocked.
     Our secretary cornered me in my office and told me she really wanted to be with me, she asked me how that made me feel? I distinctly said, I’m married, how would you expect me to feel about this? Her reply was your a guy, your suppose to want me… right? She said it would be fine, men do it all the time. I replied with, well I’m not just any guy. I did not turn her in for harassment, never felt harassed, no need to do that. My tolerance for this kind of stuff is very high I guess.
     Several years later, I was approached by a student, ( I worked at a college), the student was not even my student, but insisted to come to my office every Thursday to talk about whatever. Following the convention of the day, we were encouraged to engage students in conversations, and in many ways help them if they needed help or encourage them. Without divulging too many details, this young woman threatened me with a knife, and demanded for me to show her my D—. When I refused and calmly asked for her to leave, she told me no, and that her next thing to do was to tell the department chair I was demanding sex from her. I told her, no your not, just put the knife down and leave, please never return. She started to cry, and left. At the time, I figured she was confused, and maybe a little bit disturbed.
     In disbelief I went immediately to a colleague down the hall. He insisted I turn her in, but I did not. My biggest mistake in this was not to turn her in for harassment. Seven years went by, and one day I was called by HR. They wanted to talk to me about a charge brought against me and asked me if I knew a student, they showed me her name, and then a picture. I was shocked, this student, who did not graduate, seven years later wanted to press charges against me for something I did not do. At this point, I could see my whole career go down the tubes, At that time I had three kids, and a wife, (I’m still marred to same wonderful women) I could just see everything crashing down on me. Because I have seen this happen to many men guilty or not lose everything just because a women yells rape, or accuses them of such. NOT DISCOUNTING RAPE AT ALL!!!
     This student, said I raped her, that I exposed myself, and used a knife to force her to do things she did not want. My only saving grace was honesty, and my colleague, and the 50+ other people I told this story to. I would tell this story to lots of people and I called the girl “knife girl” it became a joke in many ways. The day it happen I told my wife and she is the one who called her “knife girl”. After many witness were called in, the student realized she was not going to win, admitted to fabricating most of the story. but did not admit to threatening me. The university dropped the who thing. But…
     I was still in trouble, I was told that if I knew she had a knife and did not turn her in. I was aiding in the possible injury or murder of another student or member of the university. While I could have been reprimanded with a suspension, or leave without pay, I was, instead, shamed and treated like I did such a bad thing by not turning her in. The physical, and mental stress this created for me literally almost killed me. I did not eat, I could not sleep, and I started to drink, and use drugs. I was closing myself off from my family and the ones I love. I ignored everyone, I was consumed, scared, afraid of losing everyone and everything I had. Just because I did not turn her in when it happen. How could I have made such a mistake!!! One night at home during this ordeal, I seriously considered ending my life. Lucky I did not, I eventaully had to seek help, and learn to heal, it took me 3 years but I can say today I am now over the who thing. I now have 4 very wonderful and beautiful boys and one awesome perfect wife!
     I tell this story because while many women feel they have to do what the author says they do, in many way there are lots of men who have to too. At the end of day, my take home from my experience is to report everything that happens even if it does not really bother you. If you don’t no one will know…..and who knows what might happen

     Reply

384. By growing a backbone and learning how to assert yourself, the vast majority of these problems go away.

     Reply

     1. Kind of the point of the article. Also, physical disparities make that difficult in many situations. Many of us have a backbone but also know our limitations. Stop being a dick.

        Reply

385. Sorry but my ex-wife assaulted me every night over a 2 year period (in front of our daughter) and I sat around quietly until she was convicted of attempt murder. As a man I tiptoed around her because anything and everything would trigger a violent outburst from her.

     When she’d been really naughty and others stepped in, she’s always used a kind of manipulation that only women have in their toolbox – she’d switch off, sob and get people thinking ‘poor her – there must be something more – this man must have provoked a violent response, she wouldn’t just do it’. Largely good intentioned males would then step up and berate me (the victim) by telling me I must have done something – imagine doing that to a female victim – totally not on. Nobody (no man, woman or other/not specified) deserves violence.

     It’s not a sexualised matter. Violence is just plain wrong – IMO hating on men and saying only men can be violent is wrong! Quit sexualising it and quit saying non-female victims don’t exist because right now you like… just… don’t… get it. 1 in 3 victims of DV are men – we accept that there is some imbalance (and no man wants to see a woman get assaulted) BUT… we count too. All DV victims should be united, because we have a common cause.

     Reply

     1. I think this misses the point. Nobody is hating on men.

        Reply

     2. Women aren’t the only ones who manipulate. Men do too. Nobody has a monopoly on anything. We’re all just people. People do horrible things. People do sort of offensive things without even realizing it. People scar other people for life. People make other people’s lives infinitely better or infinitely worse.
        Basically….not a contest. People are…people. Individuals have different experiences and the experiences of others aren’t meant to discount your own. We all just sometimes need to..vent. Share. It happens. It sucks that you had that experience, but it doesn’t mean that all women are like that. Don’t let it keep you from listening.

        Reply

     3. I am genuinely sorry you were assaulted by your wife but you’re missing the point of THIS article. Please show me where it says or indicates that non female victims don’t exist and don’t matter. Where does it say that only men are violent? This article is trying to draw attention specifically to issues women face. It’s not discriminating or excluding hardships of men by any means. The focus is to draw attention to every day experience women have that this author feels society may be numb to. If there was an article about how men are objectified, assaulted or belittled, would you think it fair for a woman to comment saying “But wait, then the attention to my issues, I matter too”..?

        Reply

386. I do see that the point you make is worth making. I still find your text not really adequate.

     I am a ‘priviledged’ straight, white male, and I am certain that I have never even remotely harassed anyone in the manner you describe. I have hardly ever even talk to women out of fear that I will make them uncomfortable. (Yeah, that means indeed, I never picked up any girl – I was always picked up, agressively) – So what else can I do?

     So my issue is, I totally acknowledge gender inequality, but I see the problem mostly in othering, which is what you do too. A good test for that is if you substitute gender by race – you’ll see that your text becomes a bit.. racist.

     So what I’m trying to say is, please, if you write about sexism, make sure you stay ‘gender politically correct’ – so I can agree with all your points as well and don’t feel accused simply because I’m male.

     Ultimately, I just wish for.. solutions. Of which you do propose one, I do think that it’s tremendeously important to listen and understand the perception of others, too. So I find it a pity the text is a bit generalizing and accusing – it makes me not want to read till the end, missing the whole point. :T

     Reply

     1. Can you pinpoint what kind of sentences made you feel accused or you felt were generalizing?
        I just read through with your considerations in mind and couldn’t quite get what you were saying, the article specifies particular types of men who do certain things, it even mentions the ‘good men’ who may be unaware of all these experiences women have, so I cant see how it is generalizing or tarring all men with the same brush.
        I am being sincere Id like to know which parts made you feel that way and take note.

        Reply

        1. blatant generalization right in the title of this text.
           those are the writers (and many other women’s) personnal experiences. not all women’s experiences as she claims. i do not live this, and i am a woman.

           Reply

387. Thank you for expressing the everyday life of any woman, young or old. I cried reading your words. Their truths were that powerful and that tragic.
     When I was sexually harassed at my government job, my mother, who had always been a strong supporter of women’s rights,told me “Smile at them. Flirt with them and make them like you.” Her comments were a more hurtful assault than any other, but now I understand. She wanted me to minimize, de-escalate, so I wouldn’t lose my job. I didn’t take her advice. But fighting against the men who victimized me nearly killed me and destroyed my physical health. Now, fifteen years later, I still suffer because I wouldn’t de-escalate, minimize, laugh, and silently move on. I don’t want my daughter’s experience to be mine, but I already know it is. But I will always listen to her, and I will do what I can to help bring about a change.

     Reply

388. I think one of the most important things here is that you talked about the shame we feel for NOT speaking up– for letting things happen because it’s exhausting to be constantly correcting behavior. I find myself constantly laughing off crude comments or grinning as I steer my bike around the guys on my street who enjoy standing in my path so I have to go around them as I bike(or drive) to school, and shout “hey beautiful!” As I pass by. I want to stop and say “hey, his makes me uncomfortable,” but I know what the response would be. The rest of my commute is spent in futility– trying to come up with a solution to this ridiculous problem.

     Reply

389. I’m a man and you don’t get it at all. I have to teach my daughter and she will have to clean up the mess you and your mother created. You show weakness and it gets copied as the norm. Stop being meek and girls will follow. Men are trained to like breasts, get used to it, we have something called testosterone and a sex drive, if it’s not boobs it will be elbows or something else. Welcome to biology, its the evolutionary way we all got here. You sound pathetic and whining and you get what you let happens to you. My daughter will live around women like you and it’s my job to explain why you put up with this shit and complain and how she won’t. Thanks for nothing.

     Reply

     1. Her post is encouraging both men and women to stand against this. Noone’s saying men shouldn’t like boobs, but don’t oggle a 13 year old in public because it makes her uncomfortable.

        No matter the strength of your daughter, it’s not fair that she’ll be expected by society to go through life trying to have a compassionate response, or at least a response that won’t get her physically abused, to the slew of inappropriate comments, gestures, and assaults she’ll have to endure. No amount of martial arts classes can prepare her fight off a 200lb man, and it’s rhetoric like “men are trained to like breasts, get used to it..” that allows that kind of behavior to remain the norm.
        Frankly, even without physical abuse in the equation, responding in an empowered manner to every comment/abuse she will be put through in her lifetime will be a colossal waste of your daughter’s time. Imagine having to stop and explain to someone how and why they are being offensive every five minutes while you’re walking to work or to your car from the grocery store.

        Reply

     2. The whole point of this blog is to tell women *not* to be meek and put up with it and butch and complain. At least, that’s how I interpreted it. The only way your daughter will grow up to be a strong woman is if she learns to tell the guy ogling her to f*ck off. The only way she’ll avoid getting the sh*t beat out of her at some point is if men teach other men to be respectful. Then she won’t have to risk her life/job/reputation while standing on her own. Stop blaming people. It’s everybody’s fault. And it’s everybody’s responsibility to fix it.
        Start working on it. Girls listen to their dads, too. And as far as I can tell, you’re teaching your daughter to do exactly what you’re telling women not to do. Exactly what you’re blaming mothers for. Good job. You are a man among men.

        Reply

390. I would ask every single man I know to read this, think about it, and then read it again.

     There are things here that can make every man a Real man And a Feminist…

     When you’ve read it, find your partner, or a woman friend and read it with her.

     And then listen,
     Actively listen, with an open mind and no “ready” responses for when she finishes relating her experiences.

     Stop and think,
     no,

     imagine, what it must feel like to experience what she has described to you.

     Then start changing those auto responses.

     Reply

     1. No, I won’t. You’re weak bc you can’t handle living in the world. Why should men change for you? Please fuck off.

        If women actually fucked the guys that act like the pussies you wanted them to be (and that includes you, Ms. Feminist), then things would change. Until then….

        Eat shit.

        Reply

     2. A real man? Look, I agree with a lot of the things said in the article (disagree with some) but implying that men aren’t REAL MEN unless they become a feminist or get onboard with the things mentioned in this article is quite simply… sexist.

        Reply

     3. every man is a real man. it is not your place to judge what is real or not in a man. you can only speak of what you like or not.
        but going around telling a man he is not a real man is just as oppressive as someone going around telling a woman she is not a real woman.

        Reply

391. This is clearly narcissism. The challenges described here exist in asymmetrical equality with the challenges men face, and they’re emphasized in such a way as to use guilt as a weapon to manipulate others.

     The solution is to grow your amygdala, so that you can meet these challenges like Captain Picard or Janeway would. This is just panicking, fleeing, and hiding from challenges, then using guilt to convince others that you’re not the bad guy here.

     Reply

     1. As a victim of a real narcissist I am discusted by your words.
        If you really would be able to read the author describes reality for many women.
        Real men stand up and defend women so that we can live normal lives, as human beings
        Real women never call all men yerks or worse, they call real men human beings.

        Reply

        1. Oh look, another narcissist.

           Reply

           1. Oh look, it’s the passive aggressive toe rag.

              Reply

              1. Thanks argon123, I lived a nightmare and learnt a lesson!
                 There are insecure humans who never will be able to really love another human being, I feel sorry for them.
                 I am loved and love back, so I am the lucky one!

              2. Argon… How the hell do you think you’re ‘fighting the good fight’ when you call others dickheads, idiots, toe rags, and dicks?.. if it was about race would it be chinks and niggers?

                 You say you’re unattractive and always have been.. I can’t say anything about that in your specific case except I know many women that I find very attractive that would never stand a chance in holllywood. You have a strong mind, but it’s misfiring at inopportune moments.

                 It makes you a cunt… there.. I said it.

              3. You are correct. My words are sometimes inappropriate and I’m not proud of it. I let my anger get the better of me. However, I haven’t used most of the words you mention. I would simply say that when I’ve responded with ad hominem attacks it’s been because the person I’m addressing has been insultingly dismissive of another’s experience.

                 In this case I suspect Anonymous is a troll of sorts. He/she seems to have recently learned the word “narcissist” and is using it to denigrate others. (He has also revealed that he learned the word from a suspect source, a book whose author has a blatant political agenda. In brief, Anonymous is misusing the word.)

                 I have never called anyone a dickhead or an idiot, and, while I’m not altogether sure, I don’t believe I called anyone a dick either. I will admit to implying that someone was a turd, and I definitely called Anonymous a toe-rag. Toe-rag is British slang and means a scoundrel. It’s a very mild insult. (http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2011/08/frasers-phrases-toe-rag/)

                 Since I’ve lived in Britain I don’t react to the word “cunt” the way most Americans would. I certainly know I’m not perfect so I’m sure I’ve behaved badly at times (which is what I assume you mean.) Whether my strong mind is misfiring at inopportune moments depends on which moments you define as inopportune. Our definitions may be different.

              4. PS: Read this particular Anonymous’s postings. They follow below. “Toe-rag” is quite mild.

              5. PPS: Whoops! Found it. I did call someone a “dick.” (Because he/she was sneering at others.) I don’t normally do that and I apologize.

              6. Bob the mechanic, I will challenge you in turn. Why was my comment noteworthy and Anonymous’s was not? What was your thought process that led you to label me a cunt without challenging the previous poster – the one I was responding to – who was mocking another for revealing what was a very real source of pain in their life? Why did you feel confident that I had used words that, in fact, I hadn’t? I won’t presume to know your preconceptions but I would ask you to examine them.

              7. Yes, I know you were guiled into what you said… but scrolling up a half a page, you called anonymous an asshole, among other things… (OK, I actually agree with you)

                 You have made some good points, I just noticed the pot calling the kettle black.

           2. Yes and he is diagnosed and convicted!
              His first wife is sitting in a wheelchair, I still have to undego surgery 5 times and the woman who came after me will never be able to have children because of him raping her.

              Reply

              1. 1. Narcissists can victimize other narcissists.
                 2. You’re doing exactly what I accused the article writer of doing, as evidence of narcissism.
                 3. Being a victim is not a baptizing rebirth. Subtextually asserting that it is, is what I would call part of the arsenal of weaponized guilt/empathy.
                 4. I’m anonymous because having intellectual courage makes you a pariah. Argon’s… colourful language… should serve as evidence of that.

              2. All my love to you!
                 You need it more than anyone I ever encountered before.

              3. 1. Why do you fell guilty?

                 Nobody accused you of anything, I certaintly do not accuse anyone not even my offender and he isn’t Worth a thought from me at all.

                 2. And weaponazing empathy/ guilt?

                 Please, if your have intellectual courage you would be able to read and understand, nobody wants to weaponize anything or make someone feel guilty.

                 3. And I am not a victim!!!! Even if you want to make me one because of your own guilty feelings.
                 I am a surviver, there are a lot of men, women and Children who aren’t!
                 If you Count me in as a narcissist your welcome, tell that to the 28 years Young woman who never will be able to have Children or the woman beaten to a life in a wheelchair by him.

                 Therefor I speak up and don’t do what is expected from me keep quiet and move on.
                 I move on with my Life and still speaking up. As do many surrounding me, they can tell about their encounter with him.

                 4. I do NOT like people using narcissist in a causual way, because it’s not narcissism it’s low selfcontiousness that make some humans behave in an uacceptable ways.

                 Last but not least! WHY ARE YOU SUCH AN EXPERT IN NARCISSISM?

                 Do you have the same degree I have!

                 My is from the University of Life and I have a major in surviving hell and coming out on the other side without hating men in general.
                 what’s yours?

              4. If someone says “listen to me” and you say no, and then they say “listen to me because I have suffered,” your natural human empathy will make you feel bad, and guilty that you didn’t listen the first time they asked.

                 There are dozens of ways of instilling feelings of guilt into the completely innocent. Just tell a child that he SHOULD feel guilty, and he will.

                 The thought that it’s only possible to feel guilty if you subconsciously admit to wrongdoing… is not only false, but projection from a distinctly narcissist mind, serving as further evidence of my claim.

                 A proud survivor is just a victim with a crown.

                 A good start for clearing up misconceptions about narcissism is “How to Deal With Narcissists” by Michael Trust

              5. I give up you don’t listen.

                 A victim with acrown?

                 YOU JUST MADE ALL STRONG WOMEN; MEN AND CHILDREN WHO SURVIVED SOMETHING AWFULL LIFETIME VICTIMS!

                 Sounds a lot like you’ve been bullied and haven’t dealt with it, get over it!
                 Shit happens and if you don’t deal with it you will Always be the victim!

                 I never ask to listen, it is when I ask to be left alone on a hard day I get the question why, then I tell some things, if I’m asked further questions I refer to my blog or answer if there’s time too.
                 As most victims don’t ask, because of people like you, an that’s the big issue with this article, how to get people to listen to others without getting bullied by the ones they ask.
                 In todays socciety it’s a competion who’s suffering most, the one who just had a bad expirience or the one who has issues from a long time ago, the ones with unsolved issues never listen, they continously victimize themselves and don’t solv their issues.

                 You are the kind of person stopping at a trafficaccident, taking Pictures and then posting it on whatever blog, website or what ever your choice of media is, and then continue your trip.

                 When have you ever helped anyone?

                 So bye, bye. With all love to you and a my sincere wish that you will deal with what ever you happened to you so you can start living a Life full of live and happiness.
                 I do, even if some Days are hard to endure, but for that I have all my loved ones surrounding me and holding my spirit up.
                 I know who’s able to feel empathy, listen and not bully others.

              6. “Intellectual courage”? You are neither intellectual nor courageous. Your posts have revealed you to be unintelligent, uninformed, unenlightened, vainglorious, sadistic, and self-righteous. You are afraid of revealing your real name because of rather mild words that express my disgust with your small-minded philosophy? You flatter yourself. In more than one arena, obviously. You have read a book that defines narcissism through a Machiavellian lens and teaches its readers how to verbally manipulate others for personal gratification. This behavior certainly fits the correct definition of a narcissist. Michael Trust is himself a narcissist, as are you, which you have overwhelmingly demonstrated. You haven’t even read the book critically, you’ve simply delighted in finding a cudgel that allows you to derive enjoyment from your misplaced sense of superiority and from your attempts to humiliate others. This is from a review of the book you prize so highly:
                 “Not worth a cent
                 No wonder this book was for free, as it is not worth a penny. A lot of blabla mixed with some incredibly biased political beliefs. What politics have to do with interpersonal relationships and Self-Help, I don’t really get. One thing is clear. For the author the world is black and white and everything and everybody representing something that is not him, is on the dark side. Oops, does it sound suspicious? A narcissistic pattern maybe? ”
                 This is the correct definition of narcissistic personality disorder, from the Mayo Clinic:
                 http://www.mayoclinic.org/…/narcissistic…/definition/con-200255…
                 Mayo Clinic
                 “Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that’s vulnerable to the slightest criticism.”
                 You need to do quite a bit more reading, and reading of a diverse nature, before you can begin to claim any sort of authority on this subject.

              7. Thanks for trying to educate about narcissists, please stop now!
                 I tried the same thing and was accused of being one, it will drive you crazy to explain.
                 You seem to be sane so why put your self at risk to go nuts by telling, writing and arguing whith people whi know ‘ the truth by reading and never questioning what they read’.
                 Most of the times they are the ones posting Dalai Lamas words without understanding them.
                 Love and all the best from me who has endured yet another day with police trying to unravell my narcissistic expartners lies and other things he put me through.
                 This time we had a shrink helping us.

              8. Blessings, and all the best to you.

              9. read your post and can try to explain why a narcissist toy ( Irefuse to use victim) often is called a narcissist.
                 We are the mirror reflection of the narcs thoughts and behavior!
                 Every morning we have to reach Deep inside to find ourselves, many times we discover that we acted like they wanted even after a long time, it takes a lot of conciousness and work to become oneself again.

                 Narcissist have 2 really Heavy weapons:
                 First the Word codependent, whuch makes a good excuse to people surrounding the toy, why they aren’t codependent.if I fell for his lies then everyone surrounding me also did!
                 Second the fact that they accuse their toys to be narcissist thereby hiding their personality
                 As long as we use narcissism and codependent and not the fact that a toy is in a position as harsh as the ones hold hostage by gunmen the arguing will continue.

                 Love the fact that you still try to explain to selfmade experts, .-)

              10. “Sef-made” and therein lies the problem. You have anointed yourself as a self-made expert. Nothing you have said in any of your explanations is new or revelatory. It is simply what any adult knows. The difference is that you misuse the information to badger anyone with whom you don’t agree. You’ve given yourself a handy label you plaster on every discussion. It means you don’t have to engage in discussing the real issues. Infantile. I am not attempting to explain anything to you, you’re far beyond that with your verbal security blanket. You’re not bringing anything to the table but pain for others, which revoltingly you seem to enjoy. You are a verbose troll and I’m done with you.

           3. Funny that you are anonymous!

              Reply

              1. also funny that this remark comes from someone who use just a first name (how many monika’s are there in the world… that’s pretty close to anonymousness 😉 )
                 and your website… http://www.xn--det blir bttre igen-yec.com ??? lol. lol. lol.
                 😉

              2. Det blir bättre igen is a blog about my hard way after my escape from hell.

                 If you as I am able to read, write and understand swedish – read it.
                 My full name and phonenumber is there!

              3. https://www.google.ca/search?q=Det+blir+b%C3%A4ttre+igen&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Ku9aVsieKIGz-wGFuYSgBg

                 seems like i can’t access it ? i copy-pasted ”Det blir bättre igen” in google search and got no result.

              4. Try to enter via Facebook, some it has been transferred to a fairly new page there as there have been problems on the other server.
                 I am not allowed to use names nor details from the trials as there are 2 uppcoming ones.

                 http://www.facebook.com/1969dbb2015

392. someone on my fb commented that they do not like this article because it makes women the victim and they refuse to be a victim. what are your thoughts on that? i’m all for not being a victim but i also think this stuff needs to be said.

     Reply

     1. The point of talking about it is to de-victimize yourself. Your gender, even. As I read it, it was a statement of facts, not victimization. There’s a big difference. People tend to react emotionally to things like this, which is understandable. But people have been *not* talking about SO many things through the years because they “don’t want to be a victim” or something like that. Doesn’t matter what gender, race, religion, sexual preference, gender identity…the point is that the way I see it, NOT talking about it makes you a victim. You are trapped in your own mind. In your own experience. If you don’t need to talk about it, fine. Don’t. But some people feel the need to tell everybody. Being ridiculed and called a victim doesn’t help.

        Reply

     2. On one hand, it’s not my place to tell anyone how to deal with these things. If they don’t want to talk about it, and think that refusing to talk about it protects them from being a victim, fine. I wouldn’t force anyone to do anything.
        On the other, it’s not their place to tell anyone else how to deal with them either. Personally, I think it’s more important that we address the problem and do what we can to make sure that nobody else has to refuse to talk about this topic in order to maintain their non-victim status.
        If we all refuse to be victims – to be honest, I don’t accept that talking about this makes you a victim, but that’s another argument – then all we’re doing is ensuring that more victims will continue be made, until, eventually, generations from now, they speak out and put an end to it. We might as well just get it over with and be the generation that puts an end to it if we can.

        Reply

393. Both of whom are fictional characters. Great advice.
     That and you’ve totally missed the point of the article. As have a depressingly amazing number of responders here. The author is recommending standing up for oneself. In fact, she is recommending exactly what you’ve said (only a bit more clearly and without the $50 cliches.) She is talking about women’s experience because she’s a woman and she’s talking about what she knows.

     Reply

     1. I intentionally ignored the “point” because why something is written can change everything. And the “why” is clearly a narcissistic use of weaponized guilt to shift attention, to avoid personal growth.

        p.s. Many ideals are impossible to meet, as a feature. As a result, some of the best role models are fictional by necessity.

        Reply

        1. Bottom line response to your point – bullshit. You are deflecting because you feel the guilt. Not that such was expressed but your responses indicate this has hit you in a vulnerable spot, You are projecting. You are clearly defensive. I would advise you to look to your own personal growth. You, like a depressing number of respondents here, have completely missed her point. She expressly said women should claim their own power. The events she describes happen. Calling her point “weaponized guilt” is a shifting attention in its own right. I read you as a narcissist who uses your vocabulary to attack ideas that make you uncomfortable. Narcissistic condescension from a Star Trek fanboy.

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           1. Looks like I hit a nerve.

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              1. Yeah, my last one and you’re standing on it. Take your huge ego somewhere else.

              2. If you’re not already too far gone, you might want to read “How to Deal With Narcissists” by Michael Trust. It really helped me to identify narcissistic thought patterns within myself; before reading it, I would have wholeheartedly endorsed this article. You seem to have the time, and I would hate to see that last nerve “pop.”

              3. A political screed. Which says quite a bit about you.

394. To the MRA whiners: as a swm, I would like you to consider the possibility, just this one time that *it’s not about us*, okay?

     Reply

     1. No, it isn’t, but until we ALL get together and focus on what unites us in our experience we will not solve anything. It’s about ALL of us, and it NEEDS to be. Some male commenters have made good, solid, well-articulated points and been ridiculed for doing so. Like it or not, men ARE part of the discourse; we HAVe to be. I’ll say it again, we gotta find where our experiences overlap and move forward in solidarity from there. Can we not come to a place where NO one’s experiences are invalidated? And one other thing: Just because we have a response does not mean we haven’t listened; the fact that we’ve come up with something relevant to say PROVES that we’ve listened. We’ve listened, we’ve heard, and now we are adding something to the conversation; why can’t that just be ok?

        Reply

395. this. was. so. necessary.
     i’m 52. but my 14 year old needed this. and my 16 year old. and my 21 year old self. 25, 30, 35, 40…
     my sons and husband listened to me read it. my 20 year was held in rapt attention. my husband sat attentive at my side.
     they all waited while i stopped to sob.
     and then continued reading.
     thank you gretchen kelly.

     Reply

396. Reblogged this on Kelly & Lila and commented:
     This. THIS. EveryONE.

     Reply

397. There’s a lot of generalizing happening in this post. Have you even taken the time to take a step back and read it? The world isn’t this way, yes there are assholes, women, men, transgender people all have to deal with it. If you aren’t willing to make your voice strong then there will ALWAYS be someone waiting to take advantage of that. It doesn’t matter who or what sexual orientation you are. Stop making things about “you don’t understand” because there are LOTS of men who do, who won’t just shrug it off or think differently about it. I’m glad you’ve found your voice and are so passionate about this but your passion is also blinding.

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398. Great read, but I know a man who calls everyone he like, and I mean everyone- men and women- sweetheart. It has gotten him into trouble, but he truly means no harm by it.

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399. Be cautious though I have always pointed out indiscretions and I am now labelled as a serial complainer by men and I’ve lost friends as women don’t like/ want to admit it either as it causes conflict and self-reflection which many dislike.

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400. Reblogged this on Life Rewritten and commented:
     Sadly very true

     Reply

401. I understand your frustration. My only questions is what can I do about this? Women, general, will post about how awful men are to them, which is a social thing, not a legal one, but what can I do about it? The law says rape is illegal, therefore I don’t. It’s actually reported as 1.28 million women report rape, and 1.27 million men report “forced to penetrate” which no legal action can be done. Sexual harassment is illegal, so I make sure I don’t make a comment like that, unless I’m 100% sure it’s okay and it’s understood it’s a joke. Abuse is illegal and I don’t do it. It’s all these things that are illegal, all these things the government has made illegal, what do you want me to do? It seems to be a social issue, where this generation just won’t change for the better. I think the only way people can get through this is to honestly not teach your kids to hate another sex. Feminists it would make sense if you took the responsibility of your fem-a-nazis. Men, like me, have to hold the burden of all the other men who do bad things. You also need to hold the burden of the women who do wrong. You should also realize there are things women do that men can’t deal with. Women even have rights men don’t have. I can’t think of a single right women don’t have that men do have.

     It would seem that feminism is the flavor of the year. My only question is really what can I do? I can’t solve your problems. I can’t fix every guy. You can’t blame every guy. You can’t blame the government because they made laws against it. You can’t blame the girls and women who are victims. You can only blame the single guy who committed said crime, in the act. If you make everything seem like less of a problem, soon everyone will think that there isn’t one. Take some form of action, it’s your life. I can’t help you. I know what’s going on, but I can’t help you. I’m just trying to get equal rights. Hell, I won’t even be able to get custody of my kid if I divorce someone. My kid, if a boy, could have a chance have having his genitals mutilated, because guys don’t have that right, but girls do. I don’t even have the right to call rape, rape, we have the luxury of forced to penetrate. When I go to vote, I have to sign up for the draft. I have to sign up to put my life on the line. Women do not have to have that chance of dying for their country in a time of need. And the last one i’ll quote

     Women have the right to choose parenthood.
     “Women have three options to absolve themselves of all legal, moral, financial and social responsibility for children they did not intend and do not want. Women may abort the child before it is born, they may surrender the child for adoption without notifying or identifying the father or they may surrender the infant under Safe Haven laws and walk away from all responsibility and obligation. Women cannot be forced or coerced into parenthood, but they are legally allowed to force men into financing their reproductive choices. In many states, men can be forced into financial responsibility for children whom they did not biologically father. As long as a particular man is identified as the father, he will be held accountable.”

     With everything that is so wrong in this great country of America, one side is being shown far more than the other. And if you can say so proudly up there that having to lie and say you have a boyfriend is so much of a nuisance to you that you need to write this long of a post and not talk about the fact that women have more rights than men. Than you are not helping any side. The men that will read this will say ya that’s annoying, but will never ever take you serious. But my question remains, what do you want me to do about it?

     Reply

     1. Wow. Are you really comparing the draft to the right to choose? There hasn’t been a draft in forever, and there isn’t likely to be one. If you don’t want to join that lottery, don’t vote. Women couldn’t for a very long time at all, so don’t pull that shit.
        The main point here: if you don’t want to have a kid, there are several measures you can take to avoid such an eventuality. The vast majority of women (despite apparently popular opinion) don’t lie about being on birth control. And if they are, you have the option of using condoms and spermicide or condoms with spermicide and if you’re really that paranoid, there’s always (gasp) celibacy.
        Basically what I’m saying is…don’t use a woman’s right to choose whether or not she keeps a child against her.
        I do agree, however, that there should be proof of paternity. And I’m skeptical that there’s no requirement of that for any legal case. If there’s no actual proof, there is no case. People can do stupid things like tying up the courts with bogus lawsuits, but in the end no proof = no liability.

        Reply

     2. This article is about women, by a woman, because this is her experience. Go write an article on YOUR experience and then we will talk about you. In the meantime you are simply holding a pity party for yourself.

        Reply

402. The supervisor regularly pats you on the ass and all you do is nothing!? Either you are 16 or willfully ignorant. That is a lawsuit and most adult women know it. Lawyer up and stand up for yourself. Kudos for the rest tho.

     Reply

403. My Carmen does not like to go into bars by herself. This is in Spain where there are bars all over the place and they are not just about boozing- most people are having a café con leche. To me that is mind-blowing. I am always popping into a bar for a coffee and to read the newspaper.

     Your point is valid for most men: it is only when you stop and listen that you realise that women’s experience of the world is different to your own.

     It helps if you love the person you are listening to and listen to the person you love.

     Reply

404. I can’t even scroll down long enough to get to the bottom of these comments, but I want to say two things to you- firstly, you are speaking your truth. Thank you for that, and don’t ever stop. And secondly, I hope you do something totally soothing this weekend to restore your heart after weeding through all this important, but extensive commentary. Hugs at ya- warranted and permitted ones. 🙂

     Reply

405. I read it in its entirety, including all of the comments that had been made at the time. Took WAY more than the minute that a friend suggested … but well worth the read. I would imagine that it can, at times, be extremely difficult for people to know when they actually DO need to be suspicious of others’ intentions and motives and when senses are heightened where no threat exists, especially if they have been victimized. My gregarious nature has sometimes been misinterpreted by people, yet I do not take umbrage, as I can understand that people can be suspicious. I would suspect that people who have more confidence in themselves and who adopt positive postures experience fewer problems in this area.

     Reply

406. this made me sad, like maybe all my not caring had been from my past I truly don’t care when someone cat calls or makes comments I just smile and nod, I just don’t care unless I feel like it could escalate , however I remember vividly the first time when I was 13 and a situation had felt like it escalated before I was even there, I was walking to a store as I had done many times, when a guy probably about 30 stopped me twice in a car asking if I wanted a ride first time he was on a phone although I politely said no I figured the second time he asked maybe he didn’t hear me, so I declined again politely, he turned down a dead end street I thought it was odd that he’d turn down that street since I knew everything on it and he didn’t seem like he did, but i continued to walk, about 10 minuets later he this time in a truck (I’m really good with faces) pulled into the parking lot of a truck stop (which was maybe a minute walk from the store I was going to) asked me again if I wanted a ride, again I declined the he asked me if I could help him, I felt at that moment that this situation had gotten to a point that I almost wouldn’t have been able to control except I knew the area he was pushing me to help him move (which was absurd even to me at the time to think a 13 year old female could help with moving furniture) so I lied I told him I was meeting a friend at the truck stop and started waving and shouting hello to some random guy, I could tell the guy was confused but thankfully we waved back and the guy drove away. I de-escalated a situation that I hadn’t even realized was possible un-tell that moment with some luck and judgement I didn’t know I needed, it bothers me just as much that i have told my daughters this, in hopes to provide them with some form of sense of what to do in escalated situations, and it bothers me even more with what you have said that when I told my parents what happened when I got home that day, that they decided I could not go on my walks anymore.

     Reply

407. I am quite happy with you leading that kind of life and finding the sexual partners that you want. I’d much rather you were doing that than repressing your urges and hitting on unwilling girls in the office, children and young girls who don’t want that kind of attention or professionals who want to talk seriously. What is this white knight thing you have invented? Do you really think everyone wants to be like you?

     The problem is not when you go out and find willing partners for your sexual shennanigans. The problem is when that kind of sexual behaviour seeps out and taints other people’s lives, people who do not want hallway sex and anonyomous blowjobs.

     Reply

408. I’m awestruck by this article, it was so well written and so eye opening. I’m a 20 year old girl in college and I’ve been struggling with this as long as I can remember. I was raped once, I still don’t like calling it rape, I used to say it was just “non-consensual sex” because I didn’t want to be a victim and it wasn’t the violent random rape you see in movies, it was a hookup with a friend that I tried to stop and he just didn’t take no for an answer and I just lied there instead of physically stopping him since my CLEAR verbal attempts did no good, I didn’t know what else to do. I didn’t realize at all that this was what I was doing when I said that. Also, I have this journal entry from about a year ago, I won’t type the whole thing but for some reason I feel like sharing it here.

     “So this is my issue, I’m pretty. Not the jaw dropping head turning intimidatingly beautiful, just plain, average, fuckable pretty. I’m really just average but I have good skin and blue eyes shiny hair and a thin body type so that bumps me up to pretty. If I were lacking any of these one things I would be ‘gross’ or a ‘butterface’ or whatever else guys would want to call me. But lucky me, I’m fuckable. In addition to this I have the average niaeve girl next door look, I look young and innocent, which really just means in everybodys league and to much of a pushover to say no. Or to have a right to say no. I’m pretty enough to fuck and brag to your friends about but not special enough to commit to. Guys can always find someone prettier or funnier or smarter and sure as hell a lot more fun. They think I’m naieve enough that all it takes is a few lines, maybe a date and then the deal is closed and then when they find out I’m not, they’re gone.”

     Also this is not a problem with my confidence to whoever said that before, I just don’t get my confidence from my looks or from inappropriate cat calls and touching. I get it from my art and music and my work and from the actual relationships I build and I feel like this society dimishes that and it needs to be changed through awareness and articles like this.

     (And to whoever said this was using guilt as a manipulation tool- I’m exactly 100 lbs and 5 foot 1 and was 18 years old, the guy who raped me had 90 lbs on me sorry my “amygdala” isn’t big enough to fight off a linebacker that’s on top of me, without my permission, immediately following our “first kiss”. )

     Reply

409. Thanks for this well written article. Although I am intellectually aware of the problems of sexism, it is very difficult for a man to really grasp how comprehensive the problem is. Hiding under a nikab or a burka and going out into a public area might be a good experiment to get a sense of the all-encompassing harassment women (and especially Muslim women) are exposed to all the time.
     Still, it is not that men do not know about “de-escalation. Minimizing. Quietly acquiescing.” Many men, maybe not most, but many do this all the time, too. When being challenged on the street or on the job, in the car or in a club, through body language, a look, a swear word, many men do not want to answer the challenge and de-escalate, minimize and quietly acquiesce in their degradation. Most challenges to men are not directly sexist, but if we imagine these challenges as a fight for rank, as all males want to be the alpha dog and have the first choice of food and reproduction rights, it is somewhat connected to sexism amongst men. Because to not answer a challenge, to de-escalate and quietly acquiesce makes you less of a man personally and socially.
     For men, too, “It doesn’t feel good. It feels icky. Dirty. But we do it because to not do it could put us in danger or get us fired or labeled a [loser]. So we usually take the path of least precariousness.” Many men do not want to fight, but being challenged and having to submit, for whatever reason, feels shameful and depressing, even more so when the moment of “defeat” is being observed by women, who then dismiss the underdog. And men usually are reluctant to talk about this.
     Therefore, in those rare cases men are told by their mothers, sisters, girl friends or wifes about sexism and harassment, they might seem dismissing because they think: “Talk about my life! I’m putting up with this shit every day!” And they do not want to talk about their experiences in that regard. They may be not aware of the all-encompassing nature of this problem for women, but they surely share similar experiences and just need to be made aware of the fact that for women this problem is far more common and everything happens on a far higher level.
     I for one will work on not letting my own problems distract me from helping my wife and all the other women around me with their’s. So please be kind.

     Reply

     1. nicely said… hum. i never heard it explained in that way. thanks. 🙂

        Reply

        1. Glad I could give something back. 🙂

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410. I’m writing for Paris, France, and I just wanted to say thank you because, even if I experience everything you just said everyday, I think I minimized it because, again like you said, it became something normal. An everyday thing. Anyway, thank you because it makes me wanna fight more and say to people next time I see or hear a story like that : “No, we don’t tolerate that ! That’s just not normal !”
     We have a new campaign in the subway in Paris, cause a lot of harassment is made in the subway. Actually 100% of women who take the public transport are being harassed. So let’s change that.
     And yeah, LET’S LISTEN

     Reply

411. Why I don’t know… we ignore things that are very important to be addressed right away…????

     Thanks for the enlightenment…

     Regards, CP

     Reply

412. Whether anyone try to connect it with anti-feminism or anti- women empowerment, this is the ugly truth. We have regretted the times when we had to quietly notice these things happening to us but in the future we will react the same quiet way to avoid getting into trouble. Tragic, isn’t it?

     Reply

413. Dear author,

     Do you acknowledge the possibility, that there are some men who lead similar lives. Some men who are different – perhaps because they were born different, and were always looked at, stared at, bullied, tricked, cheated, and even sexually violated, though not to a degree as severe as what most women encounter on an everyday basis.

     Some men, who did not open their mouths because they had many responsibilities to look after, and pushing themselves down in the priority list was the only way to get things done, till the time not asserting themselves became their second nature. i wonder if you acknowledge the possibility that such men looked around themselves and identified only with women, because it is women who lived simlar lives, never the men. They grew naturally compassionate, empathetic with women, understanding their lives much better than most men ever would.

     Have you ever known such a man, and if you have, have you ever really given a thought to your attitudes towards him?

     Just a thought.

     Reply

     1. Good point however you sound like the uneducated idiot at the end. Where did she state that good men don’t exist or that she hasn’t formed those bonds.
        Feminist doesn’t equal blanket judgement of any sex or male receptivity Siberia. You’re points are valid, I appreciate those men and all other kinds too and just because equality and balance matters to me doesn’t make me think one sided. And I’m going to hazard a guess and say that the imagined bias you’re looking for ain’t here buddy. You just kinda come off conceited too…
        Try again.

        Reply

        1. Nearly all my girlfriends are like this. They will go on about all men being the same, and will assume bad motives for all and any male behaviour, especially if it’s friendly or flirtatious.
           And then they complain that they can’t get a boyfriend, or that their boyfriend doesn’t understand what they go through. It drives me nuts.

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           1. There was a time, in my late teens and early 20’s, where I frequently said “I hate men” and “Men are awful/pathetic/nasty/mean/impossible to relate to…” Why? I was at the cusp of awareness between my injury from men, and my Healing Process. My father was a horrible man–a rapist, a child molester, a general misogynist. My experiences of men from birth-to-independence were everything the author of this article wrote about. At the age of being AWAY from him, I began to process and understand All That I Didn’t Like about him. And I needed time and compassion to make it through that time. I needed a great girlfriend, who could say “You have a problem. It is not your fault. But it is defining you right now, and you need to integrate your injury as information, not as All of Reality.” I was lucky to have met such a woman. Someone who Had been injured by men, and who lived to Heal, and make choices about life with that experience being informative, but not Soul-Self-defining. May that kind of compassion and connection come to us all.

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        2. First off I am not a Feminist, I am a Gender Equality backer and WOW you just completely deflected him and said he was wrong because of personal bias? This is why feminism is bad, you are bias, otherwise you would be with me, in the equality camp. You cannot claim to be on both sides and call it Feminism, it would be like calling racial equality Blackism.

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           1. Isn’t it weird how one of the prominent racial equality movements in the US right now is called Black Lives Matter? It’s as though they too realise that it is possible to work towards equality by recognising and redressing the inequalities that society already creates for certain groups. A bit like feminism.

              Btw, ‘you are bias’ doesn’t make any sense.

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           2. You know it’s gonna be disappointing when “First off I am not a Feminist”.
              Makes me sad :/

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           3. Never heard of Black Power have you? Feminism is about respecting self and giving the same respect to others, male or female. Your definition is incorrect and your comparison is flawed.

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           4. Yeah, sorry it’s called feminism and it already has a definition that is, pressumably, the same as a ‘gender equality backer’. It seems silly to introduce a new term for the exact thing which already exists purely because you don’t like the name.

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              1. This is something that happens all the time…part of our continually evolving language. Example…the words retard and handicapped

              2. The words you mention haven’t been re-defined. Their use is no longer socially acceptable, a very different thing. The word Feminism has been re-defined either. It’s been misappropriated and misused, but its original definition remains.

           5. I read a tweet somewhere that said something along the lines of people getting angry about feminism being called feminism sound silly when human kind has been called MAN kind throughout most of history. If you were truly invested in gender equality, the name of what it is called should be the last thing on your list to fix.

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        3. I hope I am I am being an uneducated idiot. As a matter of fact, i desperately hope life educates me with a lesson that changes my view for good.

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        4. Why call people idiots. It is unkind.

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           1. Right? People just bristled for an argument.
              Not conducive to a debate to try and spread some awareness about a really really really important issue, just chillllll

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        5. A man like that, and I have been fortunate to know and love a fair few, understands the social imbalance of power between men and women. There individual experiences of oppression allow them to empathise with these causes and appreciate that there is a need to listen and support oppression they are not vulnerable too. Most significantly a man who Truley understands ‘better than most men’ does not undermine specific discussions about female oppression because it does not include the hardships men feel. That’s the voice of male privlage throwing a strop.

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     2. WHAT does this have to do with her article?
        HOW is this even a response?

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        1. It is a response. Of a sort. The response is: Wataboutthemenz?

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           1. clearly. and so if anyone here has an issue with the day to day parrels of men, talk about it, write about it, DO something about it, ELSEWHERE. Here, in this moment, the author is calling attention to Women, not all women, obviously, but a sect of Women that take qualm with said behaviors and ideologies. stop deflecting from the issue at hand. Here, in THIS space, it. isn’t. about. YOU.

              Reply

        2. haha these kinds of responses are insane… what about the 1% of people who dont experience this?!?!?! what about the random one off example i can drum up to try and invalidate your well thought out point? yeah… so? you know a black guy, and he doesnt think racism is real. cool! good for you! racism is still real and affects an enormous number of people. fuck up with yr stupid excuses and derailments.

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           1. dear author,

              i’m a moron. im going to talk about something else at random. my needs are important. more important than your point.

              just a (useless waste of time) thought

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     3. It’s mainly something men do to women. Maybe some men are harassed, but it’s not a fundamental problem. That is a hapless person. You don’t see every man facing these issues. At least almost every woman does. This article is about the problems women face; if you want to write an article about harassment toward men, go ahead.

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        1. Seems a perfectly valid response to an article about how men don’t understand what women go through, to explain that some men go through the same thing. It might focus the idea of feminism being about tackling these problems, rather than being a Spice Girl-style self-fulfilment kick that means you never have to grow up. This article isn’t in that vein, but there is a lot of people trying to use feminism to sell a lifestyle, rather than attack entrenched personal power-structures. Power structures that prey on men as well.

           You demonstrate this very well by labelling him as ‘a hapless person’ for being preyed on, for being weak. Should he be strong and silent, man up and bottle up those feelings so that only women can talk about their issues?

           A hapless person indeed. Would you call the writer a hapless person because she has been bullied and spoken up about it? Ridiculous, and a good way to make a lot of men suspicious of modern feminism. It seems like we’re being asked to keep quiet and accept a new form of bullying, a new Alpha personality that isn’t male.

           I want change, but I don’t just want to change the sex of unthinking bullies. I want a better system, and that requires accepting that the current structure harms men as well as women. If not, you’re just trying to put the pigs in charge of Animal Farm.

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           1. If this is how you feel, then say something about it, write something about, DO something about it, ELSEWHERE. do not use the authors platform raising specific issues about Women, to deflect from them to make them about something else. Here in this space, at this time and in this article, it isn’t about the man as victim. It’s unfortunate so many can not seem to ‘deal’ with this.

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              1. You seem to misunderstand. The article states that perhaps men minimise because they don’t understand. What people seem to be saying is that men also experience it, but they are taught much more aggressively not to share. So whilst women have their friends for comfort and support, men are taught that it’s just something you deal with. It’s not about derailing the authors post, it’s about providing a contrary point of view.

     4. Wow! Not sure where you got that from! I am in a very secure and happy marriage, and everything this blog says hit home for me. I have walked in the dark with keys between my fingers, and having had so many friends confess such tragedy, that I realized how LUCKY I am to have not been raped. Imagine, such a thing being reduced to LUCK! I have had countless men showing me their penises (one incident I was even on a public bus!), follow me, most of which in my youth. When I was in grade 5 my teacher put a pass on me. I slapped him (but warned him first that I may lose my temper if he continued – such a nice little girl I was…). I had to sit outside of the classroom for two weeks; he wouldn’t let me participate in class. I remember him staring at my chest, and noticing that he noticed when I started wearing a training bra. A while we never saw him again. I heard news he was fired for touching a girl. I had no idea then what that even meant, but I had the sense that I had escaped something. If I had known, I would have told my parents or the principal. I felt bad for that un-named girl, It is only as an adult that I look back on it that I really understand. In no place does this commentary say that ALL men are like this. My impression is that is a musing on one dimension of our lives as women. I have lived what this author is talking about. It is real. I also believe that there are incredible men out there. Perhaps that is why I found one. Please, don’t twist it into something else. I fear you may only be proving her point…

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        1. Sorry, that comment was meant as a reply to Tailortink’s comment. I would have framed it differently had I known how they are posted.

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     5. I was inspired by your post and shared on my fb with this long comment maybe no one would read. I just wanted to say thank you!:
        Thank you Maigan Underwood for tagging me so i’d read this. Is there a single woman out there that Doesn’t resonate with this? If so, i’m ready to listen and prepared to be amazed. Because i don’t think i know of anyone who doesn’t.
        The only violence i see even more prevalent at this time is the one towards the Transgendered community.
        Does this violence come from a place a fear? Are men (and yes, it is overwhelmingly men) feeling so powerless and are so ignorant that they look for ‘targets’ of vulnerability in which to dominate and strike out against?
        It’s true that Empowered women, trans, queers etc…are less attractive a target but that doesn’t mean they aren’t also hurt, on purpose, by men who in the recesses of their undeveloped psyche’s feel that it’s their right to take and to hurt and to belittle and terrorize.
        If you’re a man and you’re reading this and you’re hurt yourself and lash out at whatever target’s sanctified by the sick society you’ve grown up in; know that you will not be better off after lashing out.
        In fact you’re slowly poisoning your world and yourself. That the monster you unleash will always in the end come back to bite you.
        And for all those men who feel indifferent to the plight of their mothers, sisters, daughters, granddaughters, nieces, neighbors; by not acting or speaking up you embolden the sickest of our society to do the most harm.
        And for those few men who listen, who ‘get it’, who speak out not as some sort of paternal protector but as a fellow human being who can stretch their imagination and brave the correlation enough to empathize as to what it feels like to walk through life knowing that fear is just a sexist remark away when there’s that glint in someone’s eye.
        That glint lacking humanity that tells us, as the vulnerable (and we are ALL vulnerable) of our society that violence needs only a moment of opportunity with these predators.
        Perhaps it is the callousness to their own vulnerability that brings them to rape, belittle, terrorize, abuse, dismiss.
        Perhaps it’s growing up in a society as f*#@d up as ours that cultivates the morally impoverished to lash out at those they’re encouraged to think of as ‘lesser than’.
        Hierarchical rather than Lateral social structures pretty much guarantee the predator prey mindset (greater than~lesser than).
        These male predators have most likely been prey in their own life experiences. In two of the most harmful to me marraiges both of these men had been hurt when they were at their most vulnerable, when they were children.
        Beaten, belittled, abused, neglected,and worse. Is it any wonder that not having honestly recovered from this that they turn around and do the same?
        So as we’re talking and As we’re listening let’s bring a poignant focus to how we parent, and how we listen to others who parent.
        Cycles are self perpetuating they carry their own momentum and gravitational pull towards continuance. They only change when we ourselves open to the possibility of change while in a vulnerable state and as this wonderful soul so adequately encouraged~Listen… p.s. don’t imagine many if any will have read this all the way through and that’s ok, it’s been a cathartic experience just writing it. Be kind to one another, be kind to yourselves and if it’s beyond your capabilities seek help. We All need help, it’s part of the human experience. Peace, Love and Joy in the Moment of continuiing steps in my own recovery.

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     6. If men were to walk around half naked, they’d also experience more of such weird behaviour. And then women would say “of course, just look at what he’s wearing, or how he’s wearing his pants half open”.

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     7. Yo. The point she is trying to make isn’t about men. She isn’t insinuating that NO men have to deal with this. She is saying the ALL women have to deal with this. And when this is voiced, it is often seen as an attack, or attempt to lay blame. It is not about blame. It is about inviting men into a shared responsibility. This article is also not a statement AGAINST men. It’s a statement against a Culture in which there is an inherent POWER IMBALANCE at an institutional level. Both MEN and WOMEN are hurt by this. Someone raised the point around men learning empathy- which is a ‘woman’s advantage.’ Because this essential core human trait has been feminized and is therefor a ‘weakness,’ many males are not at liberty to share emotions or expect a decent reaction when they do. The impact? Check out male suicide statistics. The culture is sick, and the conversation needs to steer away from pitting men and women against each other and towards the fault of culture. As men, this might involve some self examination and being open to critical discourse, insight, a change in attitude or perhaps even some painful realizations surrounding some of your expectations and habits. Often well meaning men and women participate in sexist [unhelpful gendered] behavior unintentionally because it is an unquestioned cultural norm and the frame for both self and cultural reflection isn’t there. In this instance it appears the self reflection isn’t happening because it carries the threat of admitting fault. This threat makes it EVEN DAMN HARDER to get this discourse going, as demonstrated by all the comments on this thread that responded as if this post was an ATTACK. It was a PLEA. PLEASE LISTEN to us. PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE that maybe you DON’T understand. What is threatening about entertaining the idea that you might not get it?

        Anonymous. Why are women feeling they need to ‘wear their pants half open’ and men don’t feel the need to? Where did this come from? How was this expectation created? How is it perpetuated? Why do you think some women do it? Why do you think many women feel pressured to do it?

        Please at least answer this question. Why do you find this threatening? Why do you think it makes you angry? WHy do you think we are advocating for this?

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     8. Relbmar, yes I know men like this. My boyfriend is one. Not all men are like what was described in the article. There are some good men out there that are sensitive and would never behave this way. Hooray for them! We love men who are elevated, kind and empathize with women. Men who listen, respect and can empathize are wonderful! Mamas need to teach their boys these things. It is important!

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     9. http://dt.tl/Determined-to-succeed

        May this link spark your interest

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     10. the behaviour highlighted in this article is not a socially constructed behaviour. It’s instinct, it’s male animal behaviour at its most basic level. It’s Testosterone people. Without sounding crude, it ensures we keep this world populated and ensures even less attractive women are mated with. Take this dimension from from the male phyque and the evolution of this planet would be very different. I do however wish men were more aware of this behaviour and addressed it, I’ve seen the looks attractive women get, and the letchy guys and try hards. But equally women do court this behaviour too. i am not referring to the extremes nor do I condone rape culture, I am just referring to cat calls, attention in general.

         Anything more extreme is for a different article entirely.

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414. My significant other is a very attractive woman and she complains about this thing on a regular basis, so I completely understand where you’re coming from. On the other hand, if it makes you feel any better, some woman are completely ignored by men and don’t like it either:

     http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/3uapn5/token_friend/

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     1. Why would that make her feel any better?

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415. Reblogged this on Alphabetty Spaghetty and commented:
     I wish I had the eloquence to express these thoughts. The truth about Feminism… for me, anyway.

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416. Very well said. Period.

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417. well written, a simple thank you is not enough. I worked as a cashier, and it was an eye opener what was endured on a daily bases. and it wasn’t from the teenagers, it was mostly from older men that should know better.

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418. What would you say about those women who have grown up in cultures where cat-calling is truly an everyday thing, a must, and who are therefore used to it… and like it?
     Few months ago, when I was living in Paris, I met a young woman from Argentina. Somehow the topic came up (probably because some guy had said something to us on the street) and at the same time I was saying: how disgusting, she was saying: I totally miss this, I love it! She continued: I love men calling me things, makes me feel like a goddess.
     I didn’t even start to discuss with her because I noticed immediately that it wouldn’t make sense.
     It left me… kind of shocked? How to prevent these things, how to fight back, if even women don’t realize how wrong it is?

     Great text, by the way.

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     1. How exactly is it wrong? If a man makes a comment, how does that hurt anybody?

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        1. everyone is not the same, nor does every jesture sit the same with us all. Why exactly does this need to be explained?

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           1. What, so when a man comments on your appearance or character, you begin to bleed?
              Excuse me if I don’t believe you.

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              1. Are you seriously failing to understand the existence of problems that don’t involve blood?
                 I was once hit on the head and lost consciousness for a few seconds. There was no blood. Would you say I was injured, or would it only count if I’d bled?

                 Don’t worry, I’m sure you understand – nobody real could actually have such a simplistic view of the world – and are just throwing non sequiturs out for the sake of having yet another reply with your name on it (I should probably stop subscribing to thread updates…) but surely you could try harder?

              2. Sorry, I thought from the context it was clear I was talking about injury in general, even though I used the example of bleeding. Yes, being hit on the head so you pass out is an injury.
                 But words, unless spoken so loudly they damage your eardrums, do not cause injury. And written words don’t hurt unless they are so brightly lit they damage your eyes.
                 Now I’ve spelled out exactly what I’m talking about, can you engage with my actual point?

        2. Depends if cat calling is ‘you look great’ or ‘come over here and ill make u feel great (usually said more explicity)…. consider the adrenalin that goes through ur body when u hear this, and u dont know if this complete stranger might actually attack you. Mayve these guys think u should feel flattered at their attention, but actually u feel fearful.

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           1. Obviously I’m not talking about “hey beautiful”. I’m talking about obscene and kinda violent things I wouldn’t want to reproduce here, coming from men that are usually the type of person that perpetuate sexual assaults and rapes. I’m talking about the kind of men another Argentinian girl criticised on a video reporting these things, telling her personal story. I’m talking about the kind of men that give me shivers even if I am standing next to my father and my brother (“protected”).
              I say we need to fight this because we claim that men objectify us but we do, too. A lot of us.
              I’m no better because some disrispectful, macho man wants to fuck me until I faint and tells me so, my value does increase because some men thinks I’m sexy and feels like he has to grab my ass and/or attempt one, two, three, four times to have something with me although I’m saying NO.
              But my friend feels better, and more of a woman, because of these things.
              I’m sorry, but a woman is not “more” female for being said things like these.For being touched when she doesn’t want to. Since when the fuck is that a sign of respect, value, appreciation?! Neither should her self esteem boost due to these kind of things (in my opinion). That’s kind of crazy. Her value does not increase because of these things. And we shouldn’t be dependent on what others think of and say about us in order to be confident and happy with ourselves (and this is a general thought, not only focused on women).

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           2. @Megan – If someone says they’ll make me feel good, I don’t assume they want to attack me. I assume they want to get me off. Statistically, the odds of you getting assaulted or raped by a stranger are minuscule, much lower than the odds a friend or partner will (and even that is very rare).

              @Celia – You don’t know by looking at someone, or even hearing them speak, who is likely to be a rapist or molester. It’s ridiculous to make the jump from a crude comment to an assumption that a man is guilty of a serious crime. If he isn’t grabbing at you, he’s not a threat. If he does grab you, photograph him and get him locked up. Avoidance is just leaving him out on the street to target other women, and how does that help anybody? And seriously, no matter how creeped out you feel, that says nothing about the man. That’s your own paranoia, until proven otherwise.
              I mean seriously, how many times have creepy guys on the street raped you?
              As for value being tied to sex appeal…beauty and sex appeal are worth a lot to a woman. I should know, I used to be really ugly (serious teen acne was not fun), and the difference in people’s behaviour is dramatic. Women who are hot have life a LOT easier than those who aren’t. Oh, and it’s not just me, the ‘beauty premium’ is a scientifically established advantage that attractive people have. It’s worth a lot.

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419. Gonna have a wank with her blog profile pic… gimme a minute

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     1. Ur a dickhead. Obviously u have a complete disregard for the women affected by reading this. I have a sick sense of humour, so i see ur joke – but consider ur audience and save ur jokes for times when u know u arent disrefarding the sexuak assaults and rapes of women. Again, u dickhead!

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420. So true and explained so well. Here is just one example that I experienced in my mid twenties. I worked at a large corporation in a customer service department and I was going through a divorce. One of the male office managers gave me lingerie. Mind you we had no relationship that would even hint that this would be OK. Just randomly left a nice wrapped box on my desk and told me to open it in private. He was at least 25 years older and his wife (who was really sick with MS) worked for the same company. Somehow he thought this was an appropriate gift. I played it cool because I needed that job. I had to let him off the hook and let him know this was NOT going to happen. So I went into his office and said something like……I’m sure you only meant this as a friendly gesture but it is such a personal gift it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable…..thank you for thinking of me but I need to return it. At which point he insisted it was just a friendly gesture (because I provided that escape hatch for him) and told me to keep the gift. So I went to the store – VS and picked something out that I liked which he never saw and we never discussed it again. Clearly he thought I was vulnerable at the time and decided it would be a good time to make his move. This kind of crap happened all the time from age 14 on….I have a daughter and these are the types of skills I need to teach her.

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     1. Yeah, it couldn’t possibly be because he was actually just being friendly. No, he has to be an evil predator, waiting for the right time to strike…with gift wrapped lingerie.
        If it bothered you, sure, return it. But don’t assume he’s acting in anything but good faith unless you have actual evidence to suggest otherwise.

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        1. I think if you think giving a woman lingerie when you are not romantically involved with her, is normal reasonable friendly behaviour, then you need to work on your social skills.

           Normal men do not do this. Predatory men do. And to be kind, social misfits do. It is possible that the guy was a social misfit and unaware of social conventions. But men like that rarely get to the top of the management tree, because they are also socially inept around other men, not just women.

           Unless you are a social misfit yourself and unaware of normal social rules, then what you are doing here is minimising a man’s predatory behaviour.

           Either way, you need to do the reading.

           HTH

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           1. Eh, I’ve bought my friends all kinds of ‘inappropriate’ gifts – edible underwear, lube, knickers, nipple clamps, etc. Admittedly not my co-workers, but that’s due to my workplace environment, not social conditioning. I just don’t see how this is a problem. And I’m not alone in this, I know someone who got her manager a mouse-pad with a boob-shaped wrist rest. I know people who arranged a surprise birthday party for a friend with a phallus-shaped cake. It’s funny, and maybe hot, but definitely not predatory.
              But hey, maybe I just know a big bunch of social misfits, right?

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        2. yasminegrey….Pretty sure I didn’t use the term “evil predator”…I think he was a man who was having a difficult time since his wife was very ill and perhaps was seeking comfort in someone that he saw as vulnerable as well….makes him a human, not a monster……and since I happened to be there and you were not I think my perspective carries a bit more weigh but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. That said, I have had many male platonic friends in my lifetime and I have never felt the need to buy them thigh high stockings or a cami….it is not the type of gift that screams cheer up buddy.

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           1. As I said before, if that’s how you feel it was sensible to return it.
              As for ‘evil predator’, that was kinda implied by your reasoning that he chose to act because you were ‘vulnerable’. But sure, I take it back. You thought he was seeking comfort. And…how is that bad, again? From what you said he was totally fine with your rejection, and didn’t give you any trouble over it. And you got to keep the free stuff, so in the end you profited. How is it a problem?

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              1. I was simply relaying a personal experience which seemed relevant in regard to the blog post. It was an example of how I chose to de-escalate a situation.

     2. I think he had very poor taste in gifts if his intentions were indeed good… I would likely be offended by it in your shoes too.. I think a box of chocolate would have been a much better choice.

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        1. Chocolate is always good Bob.

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421. Great write-up. You are correct… most of “Us” are clueless. Or, at the very least clueless to the actual extent. I do disagree with one statement. Although you may be talking extreme cases. But walking up to a stranger, guy or girl has often netted me some good friends. Life-long ones even. A simple hello can sometimes be a good thing. I’m not talking about the a-hole who rants if not responded to. Of course. I’ve had both. The hello backs, the ignores and even a few conversations… which lead to friendships. Human… niceties are becoming less and less and it’s so important. Maybe it’s because like you said, so maybe people are assholes. But not all of us.
     Back to the top… I really didn’t realize the extent.

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422. One problem. This isn’t rational.
     In actuality, men are at much higher risk of violence than women are. We’re actually very safe, despite being small and weak.
     This fear of violence, and the behaviour that follows from it, isn’t due to sexism. It’s due to unwarranted paranoia on the part of women.
     If your boss pats your backside, you don’t have to smile. You can call him on it. And if he continues, you can take it to the police. Responding negatively won’t endanger you, your boss isn’t going to assault you at work, there’s CCTV and co-workers to witness everything.
     Stop imagining danger, ladies. Start owning your feelings, tell people what you actually think and mean. You are not powerless, and you don’t need to submit.
     Trust me, it works out better than being a coward all your life.

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     1. Absolutely. I definitely relate to the struggles this women is talking about in the post. Sexism is real and offensive, there are men that rape and assault and harass women. Those men need to be addressed head on, dealt with openly.
        The fact that the solution given in the article is to go talk to people who aren’t the source of the problem is a big part of why the problem remains. If your boss pats your butt then you need to address it, because if you don’t say anything, if you de-escalate, you are still sending a message to him, that it’s okay to act that way, and if you laugh it off, that’s essential encouragement.
        I understand de-escalating situations that border on innapropriate, I understand talking to good men about these things and needing them to listen.
        But if a situation is actual harassment, it needs to be addressed, not ignored, or minimized, because doing so only encourages it.

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     2. Your statements are way too generalized. Women are raped at work by their bosses/coworkers for the sole fact that the female was weaker and could be overpowered. Not because the assaulter was confused by ‘de-escalation’ or anything else. Just because he was a predator and wanted to. It has happened. Thats a fact. How awesome and simple would it be if ‘no’/a negative reaction was the answer to preventing sexual assault?

        Seriously? That’s not the solution. You’re Just another person blaming females for the assaults they endure.

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        1. Leena, that’s not what was said at all. If a woman (or man for that matter) is sexually harassed by their boss, it needs to be addressed, just as rape should be addressed. If someone pats you on the backside or touches you without your approval, addressing the person who did it (or even addressing the authorities) will help in the long run. Not only will you be helping yourself, you’ll be helping others around you who may be going through similar struggles. Sometimes people stay silent because the consequences of speaking up could be disastrous for them. However, those who do have the power to speak without dire consequence should do so, because it helps those who can’t. The sooner a person is brought down for sexual harassment, the better, wouldn’t you say?

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           1. Here’s the problem: on the whole, women aren’t the ones who have the power to speak without dire consequences.

              Men on the other hand, are more likely to get to management positions and be in a situation where they can tackle a culture where sexual harassment flourishes.

              Pretending that there are no negative consequences to speaking up against sexual harassment or any other type of workplace bullying, is not constructive.

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              1. Norman, I understand, and I agree as well. On the whole, women don’t normally have the power to speak out without consequence. I’m a woman who has experienced it firsthand, time and time again. I don’t entirely agree with the original poster’s comment, nor do I agree with the wording of it. However, there have been times where I was in a position to speak out without consequence (for myself) and it ended up helping someone for the better (a friend who had also been getting harassed). Trust me, I’m not pretending. If I am in a position to speak out and it won’t endanger me or the people around me, I will do it. It’s much easier said than done though; I’m not always lucky enough to be in that position, and I understand that Woman across the globe usually never get the opportunity to have a voice. This is why I said what I said. Please forgive me if I was in the wrong though. I figured my own voice and the voices of others would help those without the power to say anything, isn’t that constructive?

              2. Wait, what? What exactly is happening to stop women speaking out? Isn’t that what we’re all doing, right here?
                 It doesn’t take power to speak, we live in a culture where ideas are more easily disseminated than ever before. We also have more robust harassment laws than have ever existed before.
                 All my life I’ve called out arseholes, in all walks of life. When you actually grow a spine and stand up for what you think is right, it actually turns out to be just as safe as the space under my bed did, when I was a kid afraid of monsters. And no, I’m not saying there are *never* negative consequences, but with so much support and compensation available to those who do speak out, it’s actually advantageous on average.

423. Gretchen Kelly you are the best, this is the first time I read something not making men to beasts.
     Even in a country as equal as Sweden your words sadly enough are true.
     I do not mind kind words from men, a glance at my body or even someone whistling, but I hate the fact that when I say it is enough/ you went to far, I am called a bitch or even worse, a feminist.
     As I allways have had work in typical male areas I know when a comment is a joke or not, all real men have stod up for me when someone harrassed me.
     Your thoughts about womens daily life and everything we do to avoid uggly situationes are hurting, as I realized I do not speak up everytime I should, mostly because of the fact that it would take most of my time to do. Sad but true, I rather keep my mouth shut than argue with a man raised into a socciety for men.

     To all real men out there, we know you are there!
     I wake up every morning telling myself that I have to
     tell you how nice it is that you treat me as a human being.

     Equal rights do not exclude, it makes our world better. Men and women are similar but different. Let us celebrate that and treat another as humans.

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424. My harsh reaction to this post: being an unattractive woman solves all these problems. I am a heterosexual woman who does not live in fear of men. I would take it as a (slightly tarnished) compliment if men behaved this way toward me. I do not feel good about my own attractiveness. And I think that is part of the problem: there are too many women out there who dress and behave in a way that invites comments, because on some level, despite the underlying creepiness, those types of behaviors make us feel better about ourselves.
     Maybe if I were petite and attractive, this post would resonate more with me… Instead, I found myself thinking something along the lines of “no! Please don’t tell men not to notice me when I look good!”
     I am 44 years old, 5’11, currently 265 lbs. I don’t wear makeup. I will freely admit to a host of depressive and dysmorphic issues. And I will also admit that my younger years were spent envying the women who WERE getting catcalled.
     What we need is BALANCE. Men need to feel free to compliment, and need to learn to do so in an appropriate way. Women need to be able to see those compliments as the polite gestures they should be. And a LOT needs to change in our culture before we could ever approach a world in which that balance exists.

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     1. Equality will happen when we overcome the instinctual way of thinking of each other the way we are wired to do so by nature. Generally males of any society, and males of most species, are attracted to females that exhibit certain traits that ensure fertility. Likewise with females. It takes work but we (males and females) can overcome instinctual behavior and be like the main character in the movie Shallow Hal.

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     2. I don’t live in fear of men and I would say I’m not very attractive either. The most harassment I have endured is in a professional setting. Dressed very appropriately. Yet I have experienced sexual harassment over and over from all types of men. I could never understand why. I don’t encourage it. I finally came to the conclusion that they dont need to be encouraged. I can’t relate to your reaction at all. This harassment never made me feel good about anything.

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     3. I am not, and never been, attractive. I am, and always have been, overweight. I have, and always have had, a strong sense of self. I have been subjected to unwanted attention and physical touch since I was a child. There is a big difference between compliments and what the author is talking about.

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     4. I see what u r saying. But some times these cat calls are ‘hey gorgeous, come here and ill make u feel good’ (usually said more explicitly). I enjoy a friendly complimemt, but not a lewd one.

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425. Polarising topic, but men do get belittlement every day. They don’t understand how women deal with it. I sure don’t at times. But there are men who go out of their way to understand, to appreciate the struggle, helping where possible. They are labelled pooftas and unmanly. Women just want to be friends because they are too nice. They are pushed to the aide and left there. Because they aren’t “alpha” males. The struggles may not be the same. But each gender has them. How we dot understand your problems is the same as you not understanding ours.
     I have always believed that te two genders were made different as opposites attract. We are meant to compliment each other. To complete a picture. We are each only one half. If your man truly loves you, he will listen. But if a man cant do something immediately about that problem. He will forget.

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     1. In reply to Anonymous: The whole “women just want to be friends because they are too nice” — no woman has ever actually turned down a man because of that reason. That is never the reason. However, the guys that get “friend zoned” are often PRETENDING to be interested in a woman’s life and feelings until they realize the woman doesn’t want to engage sexually with them. When they find that out, suddenly they aren’t NICE, they aren’t FRIENDS, and the rejection they get from the woman- ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE OF DE-ESCALATING – is that “we value your friendship, we just don’t see you in a romantic way” —- and then you get mad? Then you think NICE GUYS FINISH LAST??? Because WE IN NO WAY OWE YOU OUR SEX.

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426. Listening is always good. And it is very good to understand what others are going through. But we should never assume that we all have the same lives. 90% of these things have never happened to me. So maybe that’s why I don’t mind a man in the street saying “Hi Beautiful” as he passes by. But if I listen I can understand why that might set someone off. But please listen to me and understand that it doesn’t set me off just because it does set you off. We all have our own lives, & I am sorry For all the trauma you seem to have had in yours. And I do wish you the best.

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427. I knew or assumed much of what Gretchen is saying, but as a man I never (until recently) understood how pervasive this sort of behaviour is in a woman’s life.

     I’ve been running for years, and got my girlfriend into it too. During this time I’ve never had anyone shout something to me, or about me while running around parks and streets. But she gets it every single time she runs alone.

     It doesn’t bother her, she’s learned how to ignore it, probably her whole life. But how embarrassing is it to live in a culture where girls/women are required to do that?

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428. So I may not agree with every line (yep, I am a woman) but I agree with the call to action. Listen, nothing bad can come of it!!!!!!!!! Just listen. Everyone’s reality is different and every perspective is important.

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429. On the flip side, there is now the complete social vulnerability men (especially unattractive) experience. Gone are the days of fumbling your way through asking a girl to the dance and the worst result is to be turned down.

     This rampant paranoia that all men are sitting in rape caves just waiting for easy prey has easily contributed to a more fearful dating and romance scene for men and women. A boy who asks a girl out is now commonly labled a “creep,” even when acting entirely in good faith if he fails by being too assertive (read confident) or is conversely not confident enough and is seen as unmasculine.

     Further, there is a long and storied history of banter and beers with the work mates which many men no longer feel comfortable engaging in due to the damage even an unsubstantiated claim of sexual misconduct can cause to an individual’s reputation. In the interests of protecting my reputation I would not go for drinks with a female colleague alone, where I would not hesitate with one of my male colleagues. This is solely because any cry of misconduct needs no basis in truth to end a career.

     Good faith, should be the measure in any social interaction not gender.

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     1. The whole point of this article is pointing out that ACTUAL misconduct is mostly consequence free for men. For instance the senior staff member who went out of his way to be supportive when I was getting out of an abusive relationship, only to then persistently ask me for sexual favours even after I’d made clear I wasnt interested. Did that end his career? No. No it didnt. There was not one negative reprecussion.

        The few people I mentioned it to in work were like “yeah shit like that happens doesnt it. Its a pain.”

        These were all women. They had all experienced predatory older males in many work places. There were times they had thought they were building good working relationships or doing good networking. Only to find that they werent viewed as professionals at all. Or even people. More like opportunities for sex.

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430. To bad my brother can’t read this. He recently “unfriended” me on FB for trying to explain this to him. He took it personally. But then he was there when I was molested by a cousin during a game at age 10 (now referred to as “that time Johnny was mean to you”) and at 13 when dad’s boss let me drive his boat with his help standing behind me bumping and grinding with a hard on with the waves while everyone looked on and not seeing what was going on. And they wonder why I decided I was on my own and “testy”?

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431. I actually got a stomach ache reading this, because it’s true. It’s so…so…true.

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432. Beautifully written and very insightful. Cracks me up all the minimizing and de-escalating in the comments!

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433. What a fantastic article. Well-written and just so relevant to the everyday lives of women. I consider myself an enlightened man. I am a feminist and I truly strive for equality in all of my everyday interactions. Yet a couple of the examples in the article still caught me by surprise. I think every man, adolescent and boy needs to read this article. To get some sense of what life is like for women, even in the most developed countries where their rights are fiercely defended by strong laws and institutions. Those formal measures are clearly as necessary as ever. But the key message from this article is that they are not enough. We need a culture shift among the male population. And to some extent among females too. I think we all need the courage to confront assholes. We also need women to stop rewarding assholes and friend zoning the nice guys. As a society we need to reward appropriate treatment of women and punish (socially if not legally) obnoxious, anti-social behaviour.
     Great article. I will be sharing this with anyone who will listen.

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434. One thing that has struck me is the catch phrase “Rape Culture” used…

     WHAT THE HELL IS RAPE CULTURE? the two words have no business being used together… They are both important words in and of themselves, but together they are nothing… I bet I can come up with some great sounding things that mean nothing right now.. “Lifestyle traction?” “Reliable Sustainability”… all made up crap with important words that don’t fit.

     This language may be just one part of “why they just don’t get it”

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     1. So I used this obscure little website that’s available online. ‘Google,’ I think it’s called. It’s a search engine.
        This was the top result:

        http://www.wavaw.ca/what-is-rape-culture/
        “Rape culture is a term that was coined by feminists in the United States in the 1970’s. It was designed to show the ways in which society blamed victims of sexual assault and normalized male sexual violence.

        Many feminists have provided great definitions of what rape culture is and how it plays out everyday. Emilie Buchwald, author of Transforming a Rape Culture, describes that when society normalizes sexualized violence, it accepts and creates rape culture. In her book she defines rape culture as:

        ‘a complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm . . . In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable . . . However . . . much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change.'”

        It goes on, but this is already a long comment, and the link to the page should be pretty clear.
        Being 20 years old, it’s fair enough to argue that the definition quoted in that third paragraph won’t fully map to society as we know it today, but there’s certainly still a great deal of overlap.
        It’s pretty clear that society still sees sexual violence as “a fact of life [and] inevitable,” given that any discussion of how educating well-intentioned men about consent can reduce rates of rape always, and almost instantly, is met with the assertion that there’s nothing we can do to stop rapists, and that only by having women “finally take some responsibility for themselves” can we protect them from the primal beasts that are rapists.
        The perceived continuum of threatened violence is quite clearly still in place – hence this article about de-escalation.
        I think there’s an argument to be made that society does still condone “physical and emotional terrorism against women.” It does require that you accept definitions of ‘condone’ that are more subtle than overtly throwing pro-anti-woman terrorism street parties, however, and allow for people to be promoting a harmful status quo with pure but deeply misguided intentions, rather than explicitly aiming to spread suffering, but there’s a strong argument to be made there.

        It’s obviously a long conversation to have, but there’s nothing about it that’s particularly complicated. I believe that men are capable of understanding these things if they care to. The shorter definition in the first paragraph is easily clear enough for anyone and, frankly, the argument in support of that might as well be to pick any random page on the internet where the concept of feminism comes up with open comments and say, “read this.”

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435. Unfortunately this is very true and we can all relate to it. Very well written as Gretchen puts her point across without falling into the emotional trap of blame. I salute you ma’am. 🙂

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436. Reblogged this on Flight & Scarlet and commented:
     This is so powerful. I’ve struggled so much with myself lately, telling myself I need to speak up more but being afraid to, still not wanting to cause conflict. This post is an excellent reminder of why talking about sexism and listening to people talk about it is so important. Please read, and read the whole way through — you’ll see how the writer deserves that.

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437. This is incredible. I’m lost for words. Reblogged on my blog Flight & Scarlet — you’ve explained what I’ve been trying to figure out better than I ever could have. Thank you. 🙂

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438. A thoughtful article reflecting a reality that has angered me for years. And I look around and see what’s happening on the political level nationally and I feel like we are going backwards.
     even our language wraps this into a nice little box for us; if a woman breaks the mold, doesn’t follow the rules, even makes a mistake, she’s a “stupid bitch”…and it’s entirely appropriate at all levels to use this term. What’s the worst thing you can call a young boy? A girl. What do you call a guy who displays softness or weakness? A pussy. Ever seen a guy wear fairies on his underwear? Then he’s gay (as in, less masculine).
     There is a hate of femininity in our world, unless it serves to empower men and their ego. Even sex is something women “give” to men; we are sluts or whores if they own it or enjoy it.
     We have spent too many years teaching girls that they can be and do anything, just like boys, but really that message is a proxy for, girl = broken boy. We really need to teach boys that their use of force and power won’t be rewarded. But, just like racism, this issue won’t be solved until the perpetrators (those with power, resources and ability to call the shots) see the truth in it.

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     1. Speaking for myself and the way I use the words you mention.. They’re frames of mind…
        a cunt is a Machiavellian woman.. manipulative and cunning.. .
        A bitch.. well, it’s a wanna-be cunt.. just not smart enough, or perhaps not self controlled enough to succeed at it.
        a pussy.. well.. that could be taken either way, but a scaredy-cat is the typical use
        a nigger.. that again is behavioral.. there’s plenty of white versions of it.. choice of ‘music’ and behavior (especially towards women) is a definite criteria.

        I don’t call people any of these names unless they have displayed them in a stunning fashion

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439. Women, please do men and women a favour and don’t show too much of your skin in public! It’s insulting and disturbing to feel invited to chat up somebody, who clearly feels liberated from worldly conventions enough to tease the world, only to realise that one is inadvertently disturbing or insulting that person. If you wish for people to respect your boundaries according to your own standards, then please respect normal social standards, as humans are reactive and have lives of their own. Playing with fire is exciting only until it gets you into trouble.

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     1. You are soooooo right because the last time I saw a guy running without a shirt on, I almost couldn’t control myself and thought he was inviting me to rape him.

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440. I love to make compliments to women and show subtle attention and affection. But the older I get the less I understand women. Many times I’ve had lunch with a women friend or a friendly night out, gone to museums or galleries, etc. only to be told later how disappointed they were that I didn’t follow up. Girls, you are the ones who complain when a man wants something from you, why do you then complain of a man who can contain himself? You deserve to suffer for confusing good men.

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     1. Here’s a thought for you. A truly “good man” wouldn’t be doing “nice” things with or for a woman in hopes of getting her in the sack at some later date when he has “won her over” through “subtle affection”. The fact you see this as a “lost opportunity” is exactly the issue. Contain yourself for the sake of containment, not as a delay tactic because you are not ENTITLED to any opportunity, even if you are nice. Get it?

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     2. Newflash – you’re not a good man. Not because you don’t follow up but because you think you’re a swell guy for “containing” yourself. No wonder you’re alone.

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        1. To both Argon and MAC.. Anonymous never mentioned anything about hopes of sex in exchange for being nice, but for the sake of argument I’ll go with it.

           So a guy is attracted to a woman, the thought of sex is going to be there, HOW HE ACTS on the desire *is* an indication of the kind of man he is… The point he was trying to make is he missed an opportunity where sexual advances were welcomed, and perhaps expected.

           Is a good man one who is devoid of sexual desire? Is he the one who mentions his desire (evidently not or we wouldn’t be here)

           With the shoe on the other foot, and from a woman’s view, what makes a “good woman”? The one who doesn’t expect anything from a man? The one who does as he wishes?
           Do you expect (or even allow) a man to pay for your meal on a date? Isn’t that an expectation? How will you treat him if he doesn’t offer to pay?

           Yes, my example is shallow and stereotypical, but that’s because it’s one of the best there are.

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           1. Anyone who tells another “you deserve to suffer” is not a good person. Following up with “for confusing a good man” says that he thinks those who do not treat him as he feels he deserves for being such a “good” man deserve pain. It was that sentence that I was responding to.
              No, he never said anything about his expectations, sexual or otherwise, but it seems that he is angry because these women didn’t recognize what a swell guy he is. That’s creepy.

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              1. I kinda (somehow) missed that part, and you are right on that

           2. Well Bob, you make a few points that are valid. However, the major issue is the cultural/societal acceptance that men are only about their sexual urges/conquests; that it is very hard for them to control themselves (because “boys will be boys”) and they are OWED sex if they are nice and do things like pay for dinner. We aren’t cave people and it is time for men to learn (evolve?) that they can be people before sexual animals. This is why so many women love having friendships with gay men – because there is no sexual threat there, and yes it really does feel like a threat, even when a guy is ‘being nice.’ I think the solution lies with how we teach boys to be boys.

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              1. Maybe I’m a freak, but I find it quite easy to control my urges.. I’m a very analytical guy, and acting on feelings, being spontaneous, etc are very foreign to me. About being ‘owed’ anything, I don’t feel sex ought to ever be owed, but return one nice gesture with another.. Someone picks up something you drop, a genuine smile and ‘thank you’ go a long way, and are sufficient..

                 Thoughts are things that aren’t *really* controllable… Perhaps men are ‘wired’ to think of sex at all times, but how they act on that can be controlled, Indeed, that is something that is taught

441. Indiscriminate clothing leads to indiscriminate behaviour.

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442. I relate to this completely. It’s really frustrating not being understood by your own partner and being forced to de-escalate every-single-time. Thank you for this.
     Would you mind if I translate this into Spanish, so I can post it to my contacts in Mexico? I’d put the right credit and a link to the original post.

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     1. Thank you. And yes, you are welcome to translate it and share it!

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443. What a bunch of victimhood, whiny garbage. You know why you get a “typical” response from people asking if you’re being over-sensitive, or if there are more important things to worry about? Because they are rational humans, and are correct.

     Framing up your woe-is-me plight on a platform of girl power or feminism or whatever bs is a dodge for having to deal with what literally every other human on this planet, living in this unforgiving ruthless reality must contend with. Really? De-escalation? Is it any less dangerous for a man to walk alone in a crime-ridden part of town and not risk being beaten and robbed? Or for the citizen of the third world to not get detained, tortured, and killed for belonging to the wrong religion? Or for maybe wearing the wrong sports jersey in a stadium full of rabid fans and not getting jumped in the parking lot? Or for being discriminated and bullied at work for having the wrong skin color, or political alignment?

     Welcome to the human race, lady. Being a female in no way gives you some exclusive “right” to talk about suffering, or risk, or danger, or being put in uncomfortable situations, because we ALL deal with it. Then you summarily pass judgment. Oh, they just don’t know what it’s like being a woman. It’s not that “they don’t know.” It’s that they’ve grown up, and know all too well about the Human Condition. For every pat on the butt or creepy situation in the kitchen, there’s someone ambitious using their gender to sue for sexual harassment, or have someone fired that has a position they covet. For every scared female walking alone with their finger over the call button, there’s a male carrying concealed because the world is in fact dangerous. Ever had to de-escalate a gang of people following you and your significant other on the street at 2am? Give me a break with your victimhood.

     Reality is dangerous, uncomfortable, risky and fraught with unpleasant consequences for every person born. You want to write about something that isn’t completely worthless? Then stop your crying and come up with solutions to this sad state of humanity.

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     1. Thank you Mr. Mansplainer. You have just described more of the same: MEN preying on other humans. Sit down with your mom, aunt, sister, daughter, wife, (God for bid, poor things) and for once in your life LISTEN to the reality of someone who isn’t you…presumably male, presumably white.

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     2. Yes. So let’s just all continue to ignore the crap that happens in life and wonder why nothing ever changes.

        Sounds like a solid plan.

        The solution is to actually recognise these problems exist (as well as all the others you rightly pointed out), discuss WHY they exit, and once those reasons have been uncovered, finding ways to address them.

        You can’t expect to find solutions if you refuse to even acknowledge them.

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     3. Actually. Let me apologise for my snarky response. I let my frustration get the better of me, and that’s not cool or helpful.

        However, I stand by my point. We can’t expect the plight of anyone to improve if we don’t first acknowledge the issues to understand them.

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     4. Thanks for the lovely article. I agree that a large number of men don’t know how what they feel is innocent behaviour comes across. Assuming they have some degree of empathy giving them an insight might help bring change. For the genuine assholes it’s going to get nowhere. They already know and relish the misery they cause.
        It’s slighty cliched, but none the less true, that men’s relationships with women pretty much always go back to the mother. As such, if you sincerely want the situation to change for the better, then, as well as a word to men, it would perhaps be helpful to ask women to tell the story of their negative experiences to their sons.
        For thousands of years men have had all the power. This is clearly changing and changing very fast. Perhaps little too fast for the likes of bobf but I’m sure he’ll come round…eventually. We’ve excelled at physical and intellectual intelligence but with emotional intelligence we have a bit of catching up to do. Against all evidence to the contrary most men would rather be lovers than fighters. Unfortunately we can’t crack that one alone and need women to light the way. Not so long ago we were apes we fought who each other to prove to the females we were worthy of sex. The world has moved on but old habits die hard!

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     5. I’m tired of explaining this to people who can’t read. The author is encouraging women to take power for themselves and not hand it over to the jerks. Exactly what you are saying to do.
        Apparently you are illiterate. Obviously you are a dick.

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444. http://www.ourwatch.org.au/News-media/Latest-news/Ken-Lay-address-on-International-Day-for-the-Elimi

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445. I don’t want my male friends and family members going around treating me as if this is my day to day battle. I never battle with this, I never notice this happening to me and I rarely ever feel uncomfortable walking home at night or working in the bar I was at for 5 years or in the office job I have now.

     Honestly, if you walk around the world thinking the worst of everyone you’ll never get anywhere. Not all men are like this, not even a majority of men are like this and to generalise and say every girl experiences this and men are ignorant assholes who will never know is bigoted and close emended. Women do experience this, I’m sure, but from my point of view, I don’t want men walking on egg shells around me, that is not equal.

     If I want to check out a guy, ask him out and get turned down and get embarrassed and little sour about it, then that guy is allowed to do it to me. Equality is being treated the same, sure exceptions should be made here and there for each individual person based on their mental and physical barriers – small people carry lighter things, smart people get better jobs etc.

     In the end, I am more concerned about some of the women I come across who affect my life, who are more likely to get me in an emotional tail spin, or ‘educate’ men into treating me like a flawless princess because that’s equality and what I deserve.

     I applaud the bravery in airing the thoughts and experiences in this post to the public, it’s hard. But I absolutely abhor the generalisation. This is not me, and this is not the men I know.

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446. Hmm. I like the article. I really do. It is more the comments that make me worry. Prepare for extremely crass analogy.

     Many comments insinuate men (collectively) as the problem and practically view them as the enemy. They advocate needing to change men.

     Now take the above paragraph and change the word men for Muslims. Is that a something you feel uncomfortable with. Some men are criminals and lack respect for women. The vast vast majority don’t. I think sometimes it is the rhetoric about men (collectively) that stirs the backlash.

     Food for thought. I do not deny or condone the action of these criminal men. I fully expect a barrage of abuse

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447. http://youtu.be/5C1Su1UQqG0

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448. People have different ways of coping with things. Personally, as a biracial man, I usually like to laugh and shrug things off. My girlfriend doesn’t understand this. She tells me how scared she feels when guys on the street say “hey beautiful!” The difference between us is this: Living in NYC, I’ve had my genitals grabbed on the street, I’ve been beaten up and bruised by a bunch of random guys for no reason at all, I’ve been physically abused at school; she, on the other hand, has never once been raped or physically assaulted. She’s never been standing on the corner and had a group of guys she didn’t know punch her in the face for no reason. I have. She’s never had a guy shout at her from across the subway platform “you better look the other way before I come over there and kick your ass!” From experience, I’M the one who should be more scared to walk the streets. I’ve suffered more physical abuse than she ever has! And yet, I’M the one who laughs it off and SHE is the one who complains. Some might say that she’s oversensitive. Others might say that I’m not sensitive enough. That’s really just a matter of perspective.

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     1. Greetings “I like to laugh shit off”… there are hundreds of people I could have commented to here with this…

        What you are saying and so many of the males are complaining about to this author, is that It’s about men being violent. Men being violent to men. Men being violent to boys. You aren’t considering the author’s feelings or experiences and equate your partners fear as being the same minimizing the threats to all other women and girls because the threat of violence from men is more real for you. But you aren’t actually proving the author wrong. You are proving that it’s really a man’s issue and not a woman’s issue. It’s men that are the solution to this problem.

        You need to talk to each other. You need to ask what is going on with the men.

        It’s not about “sensitivity” training. It’s about leadership. Boys are in fact scientifically proven to be more emotional than girls (at age four-8) and societally they are being conditioned to be angry rather than sad, etc.

        Here’s a small tedtalk that might help explain better (granted most men who watch this video and comment on the ted-talk feeds have belittling things to say about men who work actively and speak out against violence towards women and others):

        https://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8
        (Jackson Katz, Phd, is an anti-sexist activist and expert on violence, media and masculinities. An author, filmmaker, educator and social theorist, Katz has worked in gender violence prevention work with diverse groups of men and boys in sports culture and the military, and has pioneered work in critical media literacy.Katz is the creator and co-founder of the Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP) program, which advocates the ‘bystander approach’ to sexual and domestic violence prevention.)

        Below is a longer lecture… maybe it will be interesting to you:

        https://youtu.be/FoXNzyK70Bk

        bell hooks and Kevin Powell: Black Masculinity, Threat or Threatened I The New School ( a discussion about black masculinity in popular culture today presented by Eugene Lang College of Liberal Arts at The New School:

        Kevin Powell is an activist, public speaker and author of 12 books, including his new title The Education of Kevin Powell: A Boy’s Journey into Manhood.

        bell hooks is an author, activist, feminist and scholar-in-residence at The New School. This fall is her fifth and final week-long visit in a three-year residency.)

        I hope you can stop the violence in your own life, that’s terrible to hear about not feeling safe.

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        1. I just find “minimizing” and laughing shit off to be a perfectly valid solution. Sometimes life sucks. People beat you up. Shit happens. But 99.9% of the time, things work out fine. So I’ve gotten beaten up and bruised a few times — you know, that’s given me character. Now I know I can take a hit and keep moving forward. Now I know that I can withstand the most random bullshit life has to throw at me. There’s kids in Africa having guns thrust in their hands and told to murder people for a gang — this is there day to day life. If every now and then I have to deal with someone beating me up for no reason, well yeah that sucks, but I can take it. I choose to look at the shitty things in my life as tests — tests of will and strength and perseverance and fortitude. I think discomfort in the right doses is actually a good thing — I view it as a reminder of what I’m capable of as a human being. My girlfriend on the other hand has never been raped, never been physically assaulted on the street, and yet she complains way more than I do. That’s fine. I support her. I don’t want her to get hurt. But I wish she would see that, even though I have more cause than her to be afraid, I’m not. I choose to view the threats and the abuse I’ve faced in my life as challenges I have had the strength to overcome, and will continue to do so. I wish she would choose the same. I wish she were stronger in the face of adversity. I wish she would focus on all the greenlights she’s drives through to get to where she is instead of being afraid of all the yellow lights. I wish she would stop and appreciate the fact that, after decades of fearing that she would be raped she never has, after decades of worrying she’d be assaulted she never has — how every single safe day she has lived is a lucky day because in this life, shit really can happen. I wish she would look at me — someone who has been physically assaulted, someone who has suffered racism and violence, and someone who in spite of all this still recognizes how much worse things good be — and realize that her fear, her complaints are a matter of perspective. It’s ok to be afraid. It’s ok to be uncomfortable. But if she would stop assuming the worst in people, stop to consider that maybe just maybe the men who catcall her are lonely and sad and have probably led a far less privileged life than her, probably haven’t had a nice private school education like her, then she might stop walking through life with the deep conviction that the universe has deeply wronged her and she would stop being so uncomfortable and scared. That’s really what I want. For her to be happy. But, seeing as men have been violent for as long as there have been men, it would be easier and more meaningful to help her change her outlook than to take on the impossible task of changing men.

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           1. Hi again “I like to laugh things off”

              Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view.

              Is your girl friend really trying to “change” ALL men?

              Is there such a thing as “ALL men” to even change?

              That’s just too general.

              I personally don’t know any woman who hasn’t been raped, so I think what I’m more interested in is stopping the violence where ever and when ever possible and not squabbling over who deserves to complain more.

              I’m under no illusions that boys and men aren’t hurting. I know they are.

              I agree living in fear isn’t the way to go, regardless of what sex you were born or gender-roles you conform to.

              here’s a link if you wanna see how studying a variety of masculine/archetypes and themes have run through history (majorly inspired by this author’s post and the mammoth comment section as well as by my previous learning… of course, no pressure… but it might help your girlfriend discuss this stuff too, if you both want to read.)

              https://girlpoweracademy.wordpress.com/2015/11/28/wild-man-mask-king-everything-you-need-to-know-to-form-a-band-like-slipknot/

              It’s a lengthy post… and I realize most people have short attention spans or their minds made up. So if it’s not about making connections and everyone just wants to remain polarized and use this space for disagreeing… insulting… dividing… then… okay, whatever.. and I hope you don’t keep getting beat up. You don’t deserve it. That’s the myth.

              peace,
              tabs

              Reply

449. Grown women staring at your crotch since your early teens, colleagues coming on to you at work events and questioning your sexuality when you tell them no you have a girlfriend, missing out on promotions because you aren’t willing to sleep with the boss or tolerate her near constant innuendo – life isn’t great for us males either!

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450. HOW ABOUT YOU FUCKING SAY SOMETHING. You’re a sad excuse for a feminist if you think your “husband” won’t understand. That’s sad. If he doesn’t understand you don’t want to be married to him. This is going to keep happening if you choose to say nothing and post pathetic, stupid articles about it.

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451. “And every single time I get frustrated. Why don’t they get it?

     I think I’ve figured out why.

     They don’t know.”

     And you don’t know. You don’t know what it’s like to be male, nor indeed what it’s like to be any human being or any sentient entity other than yourself. Therefore, you cannot compare your experiences to those of others (male or female) and say you have it better or worse.

     But that doesn’t stop you and countless others whining incessantly, as if your “problems” have greater importance or validity, not because you’re having an original thought, but because you’re on a bandwagon with so much momentum it’s unstoppable. A bandwagon of victimhood.

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452. Accepting that “all women do this” is a truism, we should not ignore the implication that 50% of the population continuing to react as the author outlined effectively serves to perpetuate the existing culture. Despite the risks, the undesirable status quo will not change until those victimized by it empower themselves by actively and consistently challenging instances of occurrence. Women make up a critical mass of our society and must recognize the power of acting in concert for their own interests to effect a change. Despite the existence of empathetic men who would support the necessary cultural evolution, it cannot be wrought on the behalf of women without a groundswell of activity from women themselves.

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453. I feel so lucky, I don’t think I have ever experiences sexism. At least not sexism that is a problem for me, or that has made me question my rights.

     I live in Sweden, and here the equality-debate is more about the, for me, quite unimportant problems women may face. For example, that a woman has to wear a bikini covering her breasts and men don’t. Or that women at the moment aren’t able to breastfeed wherever she wants. I suppose this is sexism, just like it is when women easily can enter a night club but men can’t. So obviously it’s not completely equal yet, but we are very close.

     I never feel unsafe because I am a woman, which I am grateful for. I realise how lucky I am, and I hope one day all women can feel as equal as I do.

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454. Yeah..You are right.

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455. Hi beautiful, doesn’t sound offensive to me. Being touched or leered at is a very different situation though.

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456. Wow, your post has gone viral. A few friends told me to read it, so I finally skimmed it. I totally understand about the listening – as a musician, speaker, manager, everything. It’s about listening TO OUR OWN BODIES. men and women both go through various forms of de-connectedness. I like how you ranted and raved a lot, really being negative for a lot of the post. I think many women can connect to that.

     Yes, we all have to wake up and be more aware. Be aware of our bodies, how we feel, how situations and people make us feel. In an age of almost NO privacy, it’s hard to wipe the slate clean and find out who we truly “are”. That is, not having to put on a show or play well with others. We – as humans – need to wake up and be more like “animals” (we are, actually, animals. we just give ourselves a better title.).

     I would be honoured if you shared something on speakingthroughsilence.wordpress.com 🙂

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457. What I actutually totally miss here is the social role discrimination!
     I give you one example: on a birthday party my partner an me were having an conversation with his former collegue and his wife. Yes, I was complaining about too much work and long hours, I have to admit. But the reply of the collegue absolutely astounded me: I could still quit and let my partner take care of the family income. Looking at him for a glimse of irony – but he was totally serious about it, having his wife smiling next to him, saying nothing (and by the way living exact this kind of life approach). If that’s ok with him, all right, but this self-obvious remark made me completely furious and I am sure the label I got from this couple after the birthday party would be “hysteric”. This remark came from an highly educated man, working in the university research field, by the way.
     From my experience, this kind of attitude is still no exception. Why do men have the feeling that they can paternalize us if we are struggling, have doubts, maybe fail, or even if we succeed? And why are there so many women out there that support this kind of pattern every day but not stand up for their dreams, jobs, needs and interests? And why do I sense so often a subtle subtext going in the direction of “women should take their place” – whatever that means…

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458. “It’s laughing off sexism because we felt we had no other option.”

     Really? “No other option”. Speak up, it’s not a big deal to tell someone to eff off. Or just don’t laugh.

     “It’s feeling sick to your stomach that we had to “play along” to get along.”

     That is not all women nor do women own having to “play along”

     “It’s feeling shame and regret the we didn’t call that guy out, the one who seemed intimidating but in hindsight was probably harmless. Probably.”

     No one owns hindsight.

     “It’s taking our phone out, finger poised over the “Call” button when we’re walking alone at night.”

     Really? Well tell me, how often have you had to push “call”?

     “It’s positioning our keys between our fingers in case we need a weapon when walking to our car.”

     Again, tell me how often you’ve had to wield your keys as a weapon.

     “It’s lying and saying we have a boyfriend just so a guy would take “No” for an answer.”

     You’re right there, but once you’ve outgrown the bar scene it’s not that frequent. Also, not a big deal.

     “It’s being at a crowded bar/concert/insert any crowded event, and having to turn around to look for the jerk who just grabbed our ass.”

     That’s annoying, I agree.

     “It’s knowing that even if we spot him, we might not say anything.”

     Head-butt him, he’ll think twice about doing it again.

     “It’s walking through the parking lot of a big box store and politely saying Hello when a guy passing us says Hi. It’s pretending not to hear as he berates us for not stopping to talk further. What? You too good to talk to me? You got a problem? Pffft… bitch.”

     Okay, I don’t buy that that’s happening to you that often. When it does, that is HIS problem. Don’t make it yours. A homeless woman once threatened to stab me (with a twig) for stealing her baby. Some people are miserable and crazy.

     “It’s not telling our friends or our parents or our husbands because it’s just a matter of fact, a part of our lives.”

     Your choice not to talk about it.

     “It’s the memory that haunts us of that time we were abused, assaulted or raped.”

     Women don’t own that. Seek help if it’s haunting you, you don’t have to live that way.

     “It’s the stories our friends tell us through heartbreaking tears of that time they were abused, assaulted or raped.”

     Again, women don’t own being sad about crappy things that happened in their lives.

     Pulling out a few examples, rare occurrences, hypotheticals, and over-exaggerated things that happen to everyone… this isn’t representative of life. It’s not perfect. It never will be, but it’s getting better. But STOP dividing people! “Women do X, Men do Y”. Because there will always be jerks, of both sexes. It’s really time we stop putting all out problems on a group of people. We’re all simultaneously responsible for each other, and only ourselves.

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     1. Thanks! As a young boy I was taught to engage in this sort of de-escalation as a way of “being the bigger man.” Jesus says “turn the other cheek.” There are lots of examples of this behavior being taught in both gendered and non-gendered contexts, but all share the same aspect; violence makes us shrink in order to be safe. Sometimes this shrinking is wise, sometimes it is not, but always it is an experience we shouldn’t have to go through, an experience only made intelligible by violence. Let’s not be violent so we can all feel free to be who we are and who we want to be.

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     2. um, its not just women that deal with this, my husband, is thin, tall, & has wavy long hair, sometimes is shaven, sometimes not, raised by single mom & kinda a “pretty boy” growing up. He has dealt with many of these issues, most of his Life. Men & Women both have crossed many a line & boundary or tried to use positions of power over him. I have even advised him to quit a job due to harassment from a Woman superior. He has been fired from a another for a similar issue….

        He is constantly being told he isnt manly enough, while simultaneously being treated like a homicidal mugger… :/

        Also, I live in an area of TX that has a crazy high number of FEMALE sex offenders as well as male.

        So, always speak up, tell someone, It doesnt matter if u r male or female, whatever. The easier way is to do nothing, but when u speak up, u might help the next person.

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        1. So interesting. Glad you are so supportive of your husband. Hopefully he knows how others treat him is a reflection of them not him. He definitely knows he is a lucky guy to be with you.

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     3. The author isn’t claiming that only women face issues in life… or that only men can be jerks. You’ve just attributed your own preconceptions about feminists to her; assuming that she dislikes all men and thinks women are the only people that suffer in this world. If you actually read the article without automatically applying these assumptions you’ll find that such claims are neither stated nor in the slightest alluded to. How exactly does speaking up about your own bad experiences imply that you think no-one else in the world suffers? And how does putting forward a theory about why men don’t seem to be aware of everyday sexism imply that all men are jerks? The article is simply giving an account of one type of issue that exists in this world; everyday sexism, why it’s bad, how it persists and why a lot of guys don’t seem to be aware of its pervasiveness.

        And despite your best attempts to dismiss every point raised, it sounds as though you might actually sympathise with a lot of it. Sure, you could headbutt the guy who grabs your ass, but wouldn’t you much rather live in a society where you don’t have to frequently deal with that? And would you criticise a woman who doesn’t have the guts to do that? So why are you so against the raising of these sorts of issues in an article?

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        1. “assuming that she dislikes all men and thinks women are the only people that suffer in this world”

           Where are they saying that?

           “The author isn’t claiming that only women face issues in life… or that only men can be jerks.”

           The entire article is about the hidden struggles of WOMEN. and what men don’t understand about that experience. And yes I read the article, and yes I understand the message.

           So when they said that women are not the only ones to experience this its a valid critique, because it’s true.

           ”you’ll find that such claims are neither stated nor in the slightest alluded to”

           They are not making these assumptions, you are saying that they are, then attempting to dismantle those assumptions.

           This is called the straw man argument.

           “And despite your best attempts to dismiss every point raised, it sounds as though you might actually sympathise with a lot of it”

           Again, if you re read their comments, they are dismissing the uniqueness of women’s plights in the world, but acknowledging that it’s bad,

           while for other, they are criticizing the lack of action on the authors part (and others who also do not act).

           Which is a valid point, and again, all people deal with situations where they are the only one’s in a position to do anything, and regret any choices to not act.

           I have dealt with many guys who are larger than me harassing me, Ive dealt with girls using their large male friends to harass me. Ive dealt with shitty people of both genders. Women can screw my life up in ways men cant, and visa versa.

           So your clumping their criticisms into one category, there are two. So your argument there misses the point.(or at least blurs the two points into one murky one)

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        2. The simple reason why I personally don’t find myself responding or creating a scene every time someone is being sexist or giving me unwanted attention when I’m clearly uncomfortable is not because I lack the guts but probably because it happens so very often, almost like every time I step out of the house and I would simply exhaust myself fighting back and having shouting matches with strangers, friends, etc, etc. by going on this sort of a daily tirade. After having tried the frequent sharp retorts or the creation of a scene to call out people who are indulging in this, I have found after a time easier to simply ignore it for nothing else but to make my life calmer and more peaceful! For, it happens all the time and everywhere.

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     4. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/07/mary-spears-killed-detroit_n_5945518.html

        Saying “no” sure solved her problem.

        Crying “not all men” doesn’t change the statistics. Women who feel anxiety moving through the world aren’t delusional.

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     5. Way to be incredibly close-minded! Speak for yourself, don’t apply your judgments to all women in all walks of life. It doesn’t apply to you, that’s great. Don’t think you can discount it for others with different experiences.

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     6. I get what you’re trying to say but I don’t think nitpicking is really the best way to react. Also, I highly disagree that it’s not a big deal to say something back. Sometimes the worst case scenario is it will be awkward and embarrassing. But I’ve definitely been in situations where I felt unsafe if I replied or that I would disadvantage myself career-wise. You seem to not have these situations happen to you very often. I’m glad. But don’t assume it doesn’t happen to anyone.

        I am young (in my early 20s), short, weak-looking, with a resting “nice” face and an approachable air who has to walk alone a lot because I live in cities and don’t have a car. Also, I am chubby. I’ve seen comments suggesting only young and attractive women have these problems but by conventional beauty standards I’m a bit too big to be attractive. But it DOES make men think I’d be grateful for the attention. I think these things combine to make men think that I will accept their advances in public or at a minimum that I am an easy target. I have been followed (in broad daylight no less) through a grocery store, several metro stations, streets, etc by men who start out harmless and then get increasingly vulgar and angry. Even if I’m polite back. I’ve had to fake receiving phone calls, latch onto passing people, jump onto metro cars about to leave, and make sure I checked out first and the grocery store and ran to catch the bus to escape multiple times. One of the metro stop men physically blocked me from leaving while growing in increasingly irate until thankfully a friend of mine passed by and rescued me. This was after I continued to say I had to get home because I told my mother I’d call when I arrived back home (I was still in college at the time) and he demanded I call her in front of him. I’ve also been grabbed on the street and pinned against a building and had to fight to get away.

        I could name many more examples but this is already wayyy too long. Your experience is not everyone’s. That’s great that it doesn’t happen to you often and it doesn’t bother you when it does. But don’t belittle the author and people who have had the same experiences.

        Oh and P.S. I’ve gotten therapy for my molestation thank you very much but I don’t think it will ever stop “bothering” me and that it won’t make me feel worse when I am manhandled by strangers or feel in danger of being raped.

        And P.P.S. I am really close to a lot of men in my life and you’re right, this stuff does also happen to men. However, it really does happen more to women and it’s not good no matter who it happens to. Your attempts to say it’s “not a big deal” were really confusing for me. So which is your argument? That it doesn’t happen or that it’s not a big deal? Because neither of those things have been true for me, my female friends, or my male friends.

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     7. I was going to ad something similar, I bet most of the men you were referring to did not even know they were doing it, On average, men are taller than woman, so are they looking down to you or ogling your breasts? And if they are half hanging out of your top, your choice of outfit shows you know of your assets and want them appreciated because you think they look good. Well , we other woman do not (normally) really care about other girls betsy’s boo’s, so you dressed them up in a push up bra for yourself, understandably you want to look good, but you have to remember it is the men you are looking good for.
        Most of the issues ranted about : There are idiots everywhere, people are not nice, actually, few people are nice period, men and woman alike. I actually prefer mens company over womans most days, and a little harmless flirtations are part of our nature and I would never get hurt or upset for some dude trying to chat me up – they gotta try right ?

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     8. That’s a rather inane and narcissistic response don’t you think? Invalidating others isn’t particularly a very hard thing to do and is really part of the wider problem being addressed here.

        It is dangerous to over simplify especially issues of culture. Instead of telling others what they should do (“don’t be a victim” as if any victim has a choice in the matter) would you care to share your struggle with sexism and share how it impacts you and your struggle with addressing it and your insights on how to cause a change in society? I’d love to her you speak from your heart about those as I’m sure your voice is worth listening to.

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     9. Just responding to a few things you said she should just do- if she could, she would, and she did before but maybe you just have to be in the actual experience to understand. Speaking up can get you such an ugly public rebuke that you don’t do it unless you’re ready for a sh#tstorm. Head butting …. no… that is very bad advice. A petite against a person 100 pounds heavier will get broken. Hovering your finger over the call button- absolutely – you’d do this too if you have been intimidated daily and heard first-hand accounts of what regularly happens to females. I’m sorry to say but you simply don’t know. Life experience teaches these things.

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     10. Pretty disappointed by reading some comments from women on here.

         I completely agree with the author.
         It goes very quickly from being friendly and trying not to upset someone who compliments you, to them then thinking they have the right to touch you.
         This isn’t just men to women but I’m sure also some women act this way, but let’s face it it’s generally a certain type of man that does this stuff.

         I’ve had it in high school, the teacher coming onto me when I shared a a taxi home with him and other from my class after Prom.
         I had it during studying, the lecturer was drunk at our celebration for passing the exams and tried to kiss me whilst I was talking to him.
         My so called best friend after me telling him we were only ever going to be friends, got me drunk and took advantage. When I studied abroad and lived in student accommodation, the worst part was having your name at the front of the bulling so every damned person knew which room you were in. I had guys from the programm drunkenly knocking on my door at night and messaging me via Facebook telling me to let them in because they like me.
         Now in the working world I have been sent stockings from someone in a high position.

         And I bet some of you who read this will try and blame me, that it must be how I am that makes them like this. Do it, blame me. Because I shouldn’t have been polite in the first place, because I should have just told them to fuck off when they were being overly nice and giving me compliments. To then be called a bitch or up my own arse.
         What do you do when these people are your teacher/lecturer/ boss.
         Tell someone? Get them fired?
         Again, no matter what, the people around you will still probably try to blame you, the woman, because you must have lead them on. You must have been flirting, you probably enjoyed it. You were asking for it.

         Yes I hold my keys between my fingers when I have to walk home alone at night. No I’ve never had to use them.
         The feeling of insecurity, to feel the need to do this, is alone enough to do something.

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     11. Reality check, Zoe. I’m 6 feet tall, about 255 pounds. If a 5’4″ woman headbutts a guy my size and that guy has bad intent, he’s going to say, “Well, isn’t that cute?” right before he chokes her out and takes her someplace to do whatever he wants to her. I’ve participated in teaching women’s self-defense classes, and I’ve seen a woman land a flying drop kick on a man with no effect whatsoever – not even a step back to regain balance. Hell, I’VE hit guys my size and had them shrug it off.

         If the guy is big enough and strong enough, the situation is going to go however he wants it to go. He’s not going to fall down if you hit him, and he’s not going to take “f**k off” for an answer. That’s why so many women are scared. The thing to do is to teach our sons that they are NEVER to use their size and strength to make a woman do something against her will, that they are NOT entitled to get laid or even to have a woman talk to them or smile at them.

         Just because it’s not happening to you, don’t assume that it’s not happening to other women on a daily – even hourly – basis.

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     12. Some of us (men) know this. It’s indescribable for me ’cause I’m a dude. I think it would be beneficial to get to the point sooner because, frankly, some men will not wade through this article to find the desirable outcome. Consider the audience.

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     13. You could not have said it any better IMHO. I do feel that yea as a women we do actually encounter many of the above situations but I also feel that we should stop being so ‘nice’ and just tell someone off when they do something to us that makes us feel uncomfortable. Read this other article(http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/women-instantly-make-your-whole-life-better-by-learning-this-one-phrase) I came across once that speaks about this issue specifically and I hope more women will be motivated to stand up and not let someone make you feel scared or so for no reason.

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     14. Sorry, love, started reading and then stopped when you said that we don’t react because we’re afraid to be called a bitch. Let me tell you a story. I was raped by a classmate when I was 14. My mother told me “so, what” when I told her, some years after. It made me be like the women you describe: scared, fearful, weak, subservient. But then I had to deal with it, or die, and it wasn’t much of a choice. So I dealt with it. I dealt with him, and I dealt with feeling lesser. End of story. So, deal with it. No, really, deal with it. Stop being afraid, and small and meek and subservient as if something’s bad’s gonna happen to you if you don’t. Nothing WORSE is gonna happen to you than you already do to yourself by perpetuating this mentality. Oh, and when you start being labeled a bitch, that’s the indication that you’re doing things RIGHT. Not wrong. Good luck to you.

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     15. I don’t agree with you Zoe on dismissing these things that have been discussed. Its worth bringing out into the open. I agree with the constant position of discerning if I speak up and tell someone where to go what are the repercussions.

         Fine if its at work where I’m fairly well protected by anti bullying policy. Out in the street late at night where some guy who is off his nut …I will be scared…and even though I have no problem telling that guy to go fuck himself…will that prick attack me? Broken bones….can’t go to work…lose money…can’t pay the bills…nah. I will get the hell out if that situation as quickly snd safely as I can …. no matter how much I would like to verbally stick up for myself.

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     16. Great article!! It articulates what we all feel daily!

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     17. Dear Zoe,

         I understand your point. This society doesn’t like victims. As a victim you are weak and actually you must have looked for it.

         I grew up in Paris (don’t know where you grew up) but as from the age of 12 maybe I got unwanted sexual attention. When I was a young teenager it paralyzed me. Of course, what do you expect ?

         Then there was the time when I ignored them…I got insulted (connasse, putain, salope…which means: cunt, whore, slut- the usual…)

         Then came the time when I had enough and started talking back (va te faire foutre sale con etc…) I did not do this often as I really got scared because the guys started to be aggressive, raised the voice on me and threatened me.

         This is not only my reality.
         I first thought it was, I thought it was me but then I talked about it with other girls…same experience.

         The worst was when my little sister came from Germany (she’s German) Blondes get the worst harassment. She was 15 , we went walking through paris, every 10 minutes we got unwanted sexual attention.
         Same with my British friends who actually couldn’t believe it !!

         Now, I know enough girls around me that have been attacked in the evening time, to be worried to go home alone after a concert or a show.

         Now that I live abroad in a safe city I see how stressful my every day life was.

         Regarding other comments of yours: it happens quite often (indeed) that guys say Hi to you (at least in paris: hé salut, hé ça va ? hé mademoiselle t’es belle…etc..;etc…)

         2 options that I have experienced:
         1/ you ignore and you get insulted (in 90 % of cases)
         2/ you respond and the guy stalks you…happened to me one of them stalked me right to my front door…
         Please let me know what to do in those cases.

         I know girls who have guts…but most of them got into trouble.
         I always react to someone touching my ass or else…but I’m tired of having to do it.

         Check the website “paye ta schneck”…it’s in French unfortunately but it is a website dedicated to all the sexist comments women get on a daily basis in Paris.

         I have to say that things got so much better when I moved to London. The attention I got there was so much less…sleazy. It was 20 years ago though…

         I grew up with the idea that a woman can be a prey.

         I love guys, they are my best buddies, I dislike many things about girls/women, in their attitude etc…but really, I can’t be in denial, there is a reality…and your attitude is not helping. Because you are judgmental and superior.

         Because it disturbs you to be considered as a potential victim.
         You are denying what happens to a big part of humanity…and giving credit to those who abuse…

         Now just to make things clear…stating what I stated above, doesn’t make me a recluse nun.
         On the contrary, I have never stopped my activities, I have traveled a lot, I have great buddies (OK they don’t get what I’m saying about this subject…some even think we like it …you know the attention…;o)) I’m an outgoing nature, I am very social… It’s just all these phenomenons had to be included in my life.
         And that’s where Gretchen is 100% right: it’s become part of our lives, a habit…

         And it should not !!

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459. Correction: that’s the experience of attractive, young women. The rest of us have different problems.

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     1. This is the most insightful comment yet.

        A Guy

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460. I suppose these are all general examples of things that happen to women and the woman writing sounds angry that these things happen. That is fair to an extent. But if all these situations are happening frequently to a given woman then to some extent she is part of the behavioral problem because there are many important women in my life and while they all have dealt with these things it is not the onslaught suggested. The other problem is that many men simply have poor skills in this area – they just don’t know how to go about things. And some of the examples are anger over nothing – an older man hits on a young cashier – if that older man were George Clooney, would there be any complaint? So that’s really just hypocrisy and trying to set up artificial barriers. Overall, this seems an immature rant with a lot of tactical non sequiturs brought in to incite rage. A female Donald Trump.

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     1. Oh, it would skeeve me out if George Clooney were to hit on me. I just don’t think that makes me a victim. Men will always hit on women (and vice versa etc etc). Sometimes people are jerks. These things aren’t illegal, you just deal with them as part of life. Allowing yourself to feel victimized is a choice. Like I’m sorry the author walks around with her keys out, ready to use them on whatever man attacks her. But has she ever actually done that? Had to use them? I bet not. And reality is more important than fear.

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        1. And if she did have to use them… Well I hope for her sake she’s not in the UK OR like it’s actually a very serious situation because they could do some pretty serious damage and there’s a decent chance wouldn’t be considered reasonable force in court and then your looking at a criminal record…. No one’s comfortable walking alone in the dark the best solution of course is to attempt to always walk with other people. Decreases the chances of an incident of ant kind significantly.

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461. What she has to say is valid. but it is not exclusively valid for women with the exception of perhaps breast staring and the prominent fear of rape which is without doubt more of a likelihood to happen the female of our species.

     The other things mentioned which it seems she is more incensed about are however not something which only women have to deal with in regularity. they are things that People have to deal with. It seems that Men are viewed as dominant and therefore immune to feelings of vulnerability and fear, or having to be tuned into the perception of dangers.

     Men and women alike constantly have to gauge social situations. I can understand that many women feel like they are a target and powerless to the possible physical abuse of ‘a man’, but how many women are actually subjected to physical violence with any regularity. Most males by the age of 25 will have been physically beaten by someone they do not know and probably for no reason other than having the wrong face in the wrong place at the wrong time. and this violence can be very severe and unchecked by any members of the onlooking public, since it seems socially it is fair game for men to be in a fight!? even if that fight is one sided and one of them is completely a victim..

     However what happens if that level of violence is directed at a women… There is an exceptional reaction to it (and quite rightly so). It does however ignore the fact that a man can be quite literally as afraid of conflict, confrontation and verbal/physical abuse as a woman. If you think there is no empathy or understanding of how it may feel to deal with such things described in this article, as a male, you are distinctly mistaken. However what differs may be the perception of severity.

     It is not easy to stand up to fears, and it is not easy to speak out against that which you are fearful of, but alas the only way to stand a chance of rising above it is to actually take some control and find ways of dealing with such things in a practical sense. I find this article still creates an attitude of ‘Us and Them’ which is every bit the kind of sexist attitude it is at odds with.

     What it would be, to be able to spend a day in each others shoes.. I am sure we would all learn a lot we never fully appreciate in our everyday lives, so perhaps lets not continue with the segregation and start finding more of what we have in common.

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462. zzzzzzzz……………….

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463. This is an article with great insights, and I’m sorry to see people belittling it. I related to a lot of it and happy she shared it.

     I would add one comment: Even the guys who don’t know, DO. They also deescalate, in a group situation when a coworker or boss makes a comment about a female colleague, or when a friend recounts a story about something he/said did the night before. Instead of saying that was wrong, they just smile it off with a “That’s just Jeff. He always teases the waitress. He’s harmless.”

     Imagine if even just 10% of the time the “Nice Guy” stopped the situation and said “that’s wrong”.

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     1. Violence makes all of us shrink. Your examples of heroism are quite gendered, and it begs the question how you would feel differently when exposed to violence while wearing a penis. Men are not the protectors of women. Violators are violators, their behaviors are their own responsibility. Men are constantly threatened by violence. If a man is not “man enough” that means he is singled out as a target. Sure, a man could say “that’s wrong,” but he better be ready for a fight, or to intimidate those who might fight him. Is it a man’s job to be ready for such a fight? Is it a person’s job to be so ready? Are we now blaming victims for not standing up to violence successfully? The fact is that violence complicates reality in a way that is, well, violent. Peace and harmony and logic are all disrupted by violence. Let’s try to help each other not to be violent, rather than pass around blame or “if only these people would do this ten percent of the time…” If only violent people wouldn’t be violent the victims wouldn’t be in the position of deciding which group of victims is most at fault. Of course I want to encourage people to call out behaviors that are harmful or violent, but when a person is intimidated they are being victimized. The idea that one just has to take it, even be willing to make oneself vulnerable to violence in order to be valid as a person, that is the violent seed that is packaged into even our most noble renderings of masculinity, and it is easily transformed into violence as a test of ones courage. Boys are often raised knowing they are expected to fight, and it terrorizes them until they make themselves into “that guy” who walks around with his chest puffed out, aggressively diminishing others so as to intimidate them away from a fight. Courage is born out of love, not expectations of heroism. I hope that we will all be more courageous, but I absolutely sympathize with folks who choose to protect themselves by de-escalating when the prospect of fighting seems too terrifying. No one should ever have to be a hero, regardless of their gender. Those whose terror freezes them in complicity as violence threatens are victims too, even if only indirectly. Let’s recognize that we are all victims of violence, and that we will only overcome violence through love and empathy.

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464. “They don’t know” -that goes both ways, you also don’t understand what it’s like to be male if you thinking walking around as a male is just ‘happy carefree fun time’ in comparison. I agree that females have special considerations, with rapists and scumbags out there, but we’ll never be able to control criminals and assholes, if we could, we wouldn’t have criminals and assholes. Males also get mugged, raped, and murdered in dark areas and if we don’t look concerned maybe it’s because we’re conditioned to be masculine and not show weakness.

     Consider this quote from your article:

     “We have all learned, either by instinct or by trial and error, how to minimize a situation that makes us uncomfortable. How to avoid angering a man or endangering ourselves. We have all, on many occasions, ignored an offensive comment. We’ve all laughed off an inappropriate come-on. We’ve all swallowed our anger when being belittled or condescended to.”

     I’m just going to modify it a bit:

     We have all learned, either by instinct or by trial and error, how to minimize a situation that makes us uncomfortable. How to avoid angering a someone that may strike us knowing that we won’t hit them back. We have all, on many occasions, ignored an offensive comment, derogatory remark, or wide sweeping gender stereotype. We’ve all laughed off an inappropriate come-on or an unwarranted reaction for trying to approach someone in a social setting. We’ve all swallowed our anger when being belittled or condescended to (no modification needed there).

     Problems sound pretty universal? They did to me as well.

     I don’t think anyone thinks that females don’t have special things to consider, I think what you don’t realize is that males do as well and as far as rights and how females are considered compared to males we’re definitely equal, maybe with different social considerations, but equal. You may be belittled by douchebag males but guess what?

     Douchebag females exist too.

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     1. You put what I intended to carry across perhaps more eloquently. Yes that is probably the thing which incites such a negative response from many males is that fact, that a lot of their problems, are not just their problems.. we all face them in varying degrees. Ultimately it is a matter of the weak wishing for people to stand up for them instinctively, without realising that more people than they realise are every bit as weak (at least emotionally) as they are, even if they come across as otherwise.

        She doesn’t speak out because she is afraid of the comeback, but somehow expects others not to be afraid of any comeback or directed hostility, and therefore is bitter about it because She feels less than those around her in some way. Having voiced these issues I feel she should be aware that she has a moral/personal responsibility to stand up for all those women smaller or more vulnerable than her if she is ever to bear witness to such events happening in her presence. If she still thinks it shoudl fall on someone elses shoulders then she is every bit a part of the problem.

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        1. I’d just modify your statement away from the idea that we all have a responsibility to stand up to violence to saying that we all have an interest in doing so. Again, we are all victims, and it is not our fault. But there are things we can do to change the situation. Doing those things is not our responsibility, we are not guilty if we don;t do them, it is not our fault if we are intimidated away from them, but doing them is our hope for salvation, which we all want. No blaming or shaming necessary, just a sober assessment of what is real and what is possible. It’s possible not to be intimidated. But being intimidated is real and not our fault.

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           1. I think my point was more that if you feel people should stand up for you because you feel weak or unable to stand up for yourself, then you should also be prepared to stand up for those who are more disadvantaged than you. It is not about blaming people for not doing so as much as not thinking worse of others for also not doing so. Life is complicated and fraught with dangers, and people respond and perceive these things at different levels.

              Ultimately if you want a very real change then you have to develop some hieghtened confidence by learning how to deal with people on their terms. learn a martial art, learn some psychological tricks for turning confrontations around, or whatever.. do something, don’t just whinge that it is everyone elses fault.

              It is harsh but most people need others to show them the way. People will behave like a pack and often it only takes one to speak out or stand up to abuse when it is happening and others will step in to. The question is can you be that person who makes the first move?!

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     2. Thanks! Being conditioned not to show vulnerability, as are many males, makes violence seem like a gendered problem, when it is in fact a universal one. As a person so conditioned I appreciate your comment. I want to be able to share the terror of living in a body that evolution has shaped for violence, but my training tells me that the best way to ward off violence is by seeming indifferent to the threat. It’s a vicious circle that can only be broken through vulnerable-making honesty.

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465. These fears exist in me, despite that most of them have never happened to me. I hold my keys between my fingers — have never needed them, but the fear is there. I can’t open my window at night to let cool air in without being afraid that a man is going to see the open window and break into my ground floor apartment and attack me. I’ve lived here 2.5 years. It’s never happened. But the fear is there.

     I was abused. I was raped everyday by multiple people for over a decade. These things were traumatic, left me with several trauma-based mental illnesses, and scarred me for the rest of my life.

     When I was 12, an adult co-worker of my father’s (who was probably around 60), hit on me when my dad went to office for a minute. No, I didn’t like him. No, I wasn’t flattered. Yes, it scared me. Yes, it was creepy. Yes, it was dehumanizing.

     The men (and boys) in my childhood taught me to be terrified of men. It taught me men cannot control their anger or their lust. It taught me that men are dangerous.

     Despite the logical, rational conclusion that my later experiences with GOOD men that the dangerous men represent a small minority of men — and that that small minority is just as violent with other men as they are with women — I still have the fear.

     I would fully agree that all women live in fear, but I would also agree with that fear is not as rational as the author of this article insists it is. Fear is not rational. Fear is not logical. Fear is a primal, basic, self-protection instinct in all animals.

     But fear is a feeling, and feelings aren’t facts.

     These things happen, yes. One or more of these things happen to most women, but that is not to say that men do not experience the same feelings of fear. After all, according to the FBI, most violent crime victims are men.

     I agree men are largely unaware of these things. The reason is that the bad guys don’t do this shit when a woman is with another man. If a woman is with a man, other men assume she is his (whether she is or not) and usually will not challenge that man for possession of the woman.

     So, good guys don’t know because their very presences means it’s not likely to happen in front of them.

     Talking about this is important — because good guys are scared of bad guys, too. Maybe we can bond together in our common fear and learn to support each other instead of assuming that ALL men are evil, dangerous, violent offenders.

     Blaming all men for the actions of the few is as bad as when men discount what women experience.

     To stop sexism, we need the help of good men. We need their support. We nee3d their input. We need good men on our side.

     That won’t happen if we accuse them of being sexist as a whole because individually they don’t realize the experiences of women and girls. You can’t angrily tell them listen when you are insisting wholeheartedly that none of them do.

     A lot of men DO listen to girlfriends, wives, sisters, friends. But as these things happen when they are not around, they rarely know how to help.

     Listening isn’t the problem. The problem is that no one wants to stand up to bad guys cos they’re aggression is scary.

     The problem is that we let articles like this divide us. The problem is that we fight against all men instead of working with the good guys to brainstorm solutions to the behavior of bad guys.

     Instead of chastising men for not listening, we should ask for their help, their suggestions, their input, their assistance, their support.

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     1. “The problem is that no one wants to stand up to bad guys cos they’re aggression is scary.” Thanks! Your comment is knowing and appreciated and encouraging.

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466. It’s these kind of things that (almost) make me glad I’m on the heavier side. Yes, I do get fat shaming from time to time, but I get fewer cat calls and don’t get harassed as often. Keywords: as often. It still happens, and there are guys who think that just because I’m heavier that I’m lonely, desperate and easy. You’re damned no matter how you look, unfortunately, and some guys just take rejection so badly that saying something actually can be dangerous.

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467. I think I get the whole sexism thing. Sure, I don’t understand what it feels like, but I understand the concept of it, and I really do now realize how much of an issue it really is for women after reading this post.

     But, if sexism is SUCH a huge deal and women are being sexualized before they’re even adults, which is very true I may add, then what the fuck is this whole free trade nip bullshit? I am a guy, and I know for a fact, that this sexism equality shit will sole nothing, other than driving to escalate the problem itself. Instead of imagining, we would be able to see. Does anyone REALLY think that’s going to stop a pervert from grabbing your tits, simply because you’re “equal” to a man now?

     No. Not at all.

     I can understand the sexism. Yes, society is sexualized with male centric oppression. And yes, you’re right. I don’t understand how you feel when someone grabs your ass, or cat calls you. I never will, because I am a male, and I need you to explain it to me.

     But if there’s one thing I do know, it’s that there will be no equality or any type of de-sexualization society of until we realize that men and women are different for a reason, and instead of complaining that you can’t flip your tits out whenever you like, why don’t you be grateful for the things you experience that men will never understand, like carrying a child? Or in a plain sense, your mere perspective and point of view? We’re all unique, and we should be proud of it.

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     1. The gender binary is sacred, transgender people don’t exist, and bearing children is so wonderful. How did you get stuck in the 1950s?

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468. The people belittling this post are privileged to never have had to deal with any of this and apparently have no survival instinct that would help them in a situation where there are less predictable surroundings. I know so many women that can relate to this and I myself could relate to many of this.

     There are exceptions, always. That’s not the point of this post. As usual, no one’s listening.

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469. It makes me sad to read that you have encountered enough discomfort and negativity over the years to fear pushing back and standing up for yourself in some of these situations. These are the words of a wounded and fearful woman and I am sorry life has brought you all the crap that causes this. Living in fear sucks. My heart really does go out to you and other women in this state, some of whom have commented here.

     Gather your strength – don’t listen to the fear. Stand up and let yourself be heard, because you are the most important person in your life. If you don’t take care of yourself, who will? Life throws us shit all the time. Strength and assertiveness doesn’t come easy. Living life on your own terms takes practice and determination. Confidence takes practice. Keep at it. Don’t swallow your words. Say it like you mean it – to a person’s face. Practice in the mirror. If you can’t defend yourself with words because it’s dangerous to, then let it go. You have to let it go or it will eat away at you until you’re nothing more than a soft pile of absorbent goo, sinking into blackness.

     If you can’t face your fears and start standing up for yourself – get help. It doesn’t have to be a solo journey. Talk to someone. Hash it out. Hell, take self-defense classes, learn a martial art, get strong and fit and confident about your ability to defend yourself if shit goes pear, so you don’t have to hold those keys in your hand, wondering if you’ll even be able to stab someone with them if they attack you from behind.

     There was a time when I had more trouble saying no to ‘little things’ like being asked to dance by someone who I wasn’t attracted to, because I didn’t want to hurt their feelings, but really that was a learning experience that helped me get better at saying no. The things we all have to go through as humans interacting with each other… it’s part of what makes us who we are, woman or man.

     This is much more than a feminist issue- it’s a human issue.

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470. Good grief! This writer was very clear and specific and immediately we have a parade of men sobbing, more or less….”Male Feelings Matter” and a female weighing in with “head butt him” — an option that not even most guys can pull off! … Yes, guys can get beat up too… but they have a much wider range of motion in this world, especially at night and in bars and they certainly don’t have to deal with so much static on the street. GK’s point, and her request to -listen- and learn is golden. Build on it, don’t tear it down.

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     1. This was a very long-winded article to make the overall point – to listen. It could have been accomplished in a couple of paragraphs and come across MUCH stronger. In this case all it carries on for so long that all I can see is a woman who has become weak and fearful over the years to the point where she can’t help herself. It’s sad. The title “things all women do” is a huge generalization. I’m a woman and I do not do the things she’s talking about, but I’ve been fortunate to grow up within a family that encompasses honesty and respect.

        We can’t change the world – we have to just keep working on ourselves.

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     2. I’ll probably be slammed for for this opinion (yes I am a male) but here goes…

        Men care. Men listen. Not all men are rapists. I feel like you are stereotyping all men. Yes sexism exists but it’s unfair to paint all men with the same brush (just as it would be for women). I’m not saying that these aren’t things that we need to work on but remember this works both ways and men have just as many difficulties of their own. Men are more likely to be killed in combat. Men have higher suicide rates. Nothing was ever ‘handed’ to be because I was a male. Nobody gave me A SINGLE THING EVER because I have a certain genitalia and to act otherwise I feel minimizes my achievements in life.

        If you truly, honestly feel this way it sounds like you need to meet some new people because where I’m from the vast majority of men are respectful and the furthest thing from the sexist raping pigs that you make them out to be.

        Anyway just my 2c – better get back to my daily rape session!

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        1. The author clearly didn’t meen to attack you and all other good men, I say that as a woman reading another womans words!
           She as all of us who have had these encounters would need you to speak up, tell the yerks of and show them you and most men do not agree with their behaviour.
           If a woman feels support you allways will get it ten times back!
           We want you to listen but not solve the problem, we need your input to find a solution by ourselves.

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471. I’ll probably be slammed for for this opinion (yes I am a male) but here goes…

     Men care. Men listen. Not all men are rapists. I feel like you are stereotyping all men. Yes sexism exists but it’s unfair to paint all men with the same brush (just as it would be for women). I’m not saying that these aren’t things that we need to work on but remember this works both ways and men have just as many difficulties of their own. Men are more likely to be killed in combat. Men have higher suicide rates. Nothing was ever ‘handed’ to be because I was a male. Nobody gave me A SINGLE THING EVER because I have a certain genitalia and to act otherwise I feel minimizes my achievements in life.

     If you truly, honestly feel this way it sounds like you need to meet some new people because where I’m from the vast majority of men are respectful and the furthest thing from the sexist raping pigs that you make them out to be.

     Anyway just my 2c – better get back to my daily rape session!

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     1. If you were as respectful as you think you are, you wouldn’t have derailed the authors points about women’s shared experiences by making this about your ego. It’s also disrespectful to assume we are all too stupid to realize not all men are rapists without your input.

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        1. wow, I’ve just read this whole thing and your comment has been the most dismissive and pointless so far.

           He didn’t “derail” anything, he just gave his opinion on the article, which is more than you have done. I think some of his points were valid and although they are not the ones that I want to talk about, ( I’ll be doing that on a different post) they were never disrespectful. And he also never brought his ego into it. He just stated some facts about men. Seems by your law it’s only women who are able to voice their opinion.

           “if you were as respectful as you think you are”

           That’s just plain bitterness, questioning his respect like he doesn’t know what it is. Only women know what respect is and that’s the problem right?

           I think you have been disrespectful and have totally missed the point.

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     2. It’s frustrating to clearly see and understand the problem on such a deeply personal level because you have lived it and watched those around you live it too and yet, always get shut down by the guys who refuse to get it because they think we’re attacking THEM, when we clearly are NOT. If you are not a rapist, pig, harasser or anything in the like, than this article isn’t about you. So stop saying that by sharing our shared systemic experiences openly and challenging the kinds of men who have been known to and DO harass women because they have messed up ideas of their sense of entitlement towards our gender, that we’re attacking ALL men unjustly and we’re just paranoid little girls seeking out attention, just for fun. Because guess what guys… It happens to women more systemically and often than most of us care to admit with pop culture and the whole historical context of patriarchy to back up the bad behaviors that are perpetuated towards women. Which is WHY feminism exists in the first place!!!! We are well aware of the fact that NOT ALL MEN do bad things. We’re not dumb. We get it. We grew up around men and we understand that most humans are pretty decent. Again, articles like this are aimed at a commonly shared experience between women that are perpetuated by enough men, probably the ones that you don’t care to associate yourselves with personally, which might be why you can’t relate but trust us. It does happen. And a lot.

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472. t

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473. Dear Sisters,
     And the strength of women is not just a concept, it is real and powerful.
     Your feelings and reactions are valid, so don’t shrink from your experiences, good and bad! Write down every encounter when you are made to feel less than who you are and then write down the times you achieved something with excellence. Work on turning the humiliations and the fears into dignity and courage.Whatever techniques used to preserve and build your arsenal are fair play and they will one day become your strengths, the things that get you across the finish line. You are all winners don’t let the fears you have when being minimized become who you are…those fears put you into survival mode. Remember only the strong survive, only the smart sister knows when she is in danger. Don’t expect anyone, male or female to understand, unless they have walked in your shoes. You deserve, can and should expect comfort and support when you emerge in tact from a threatening experience. If the one you turn to shrugs it off, remember their indifference and remember it is they who own that attitude, not you.If you have been victimized, acknowledge your feelings, get help if you are stuck, but do not become a victim. Women have enough challenges to overcome and we can and we have, and so will you. I know you’ve heard this until you want to scream, but the reality is…life is not fair, so we women, carve out a strategy that positions us in the world where we are respected because of what we have achieved as a human being. When someone treats you disrespectfully, stay focused on who is mistreating you and that your only objective is to escape in tact and into a safe place. Don’t bury the feelings, the shaking, the vomiting…find the antonym that will turn the scenario into a success, one you survived and can write about, share and one day help another sister.

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474. definitely can understand all of them. i am sick of the old granpas looking at my breasts. i am sick of people checking out my ass. we are not idiots and we notice. i want to live in a society where noone looks one another in a bad way, where one can walk freely without stares. thank you so much for this great post!

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475. I’m struck that so many of these kinds of discussions try to delineate the differences between men and women, but what they are really highlighting is the differences between the violent and everyone else. I won’t say that it’s a small minority of men who take visual notice a woman’s body….that’s obviously not true, nor do I think it should be. But I do think it’s a fairly small number that would sit there and ogle someone, consciously, a significantly smaller number who would make some sort of gross comment, and a much, much, much smaller portion who would physically assault someone.

     My point isn’t that enduring these kinds of interactions is no big deal….my point is that this kind of behavior is not normal to the overwhelming majority of men.

     The people in those final three categories are: creepy, offensive, and violent, respectively. All three could make you feel threatened. But here’s the thing: there are creepy, offensive, and violent women, too. When I was 16 working a cash register at the local grocery store, I ROUTINELY had women in their 40’s and 50’s say things like “I’d like to take you home with the rest of my groceries” and stuff like that. I also had to laugh it off and ignored it….it was deeply uncomfortable.

     And violence? The figures on violence in the home against children are overwhelming….women lead the pack.

     By making this about gender or sex, the author is removing the universality of these experiences. I’ve felt and experienced almost everything she has….and when you’re a very young boy that same vulnerability comes with the acute awareness that you should be able to handle yourself and if you can’t, too bad. A very close family member of mine was raped when he was less than ten by someone he met on an AOL chat room…..we didn’t learn about it until very recently, because he felt guilty….he thought he should have been able to defend himself.

     This is about violent people against everyone else. When female authors misidentify these issues as uniquely female, they alienate a lot of potential allies. My involuntary emotional response to being unjustly looped in with shitty males is to almost feel a kinship with them….we’re both being attacked by feminists….maybe those guys aren’t so bad? Maybe the claims are as exaggerated about them as I feel they are about me? This isn’t rational, but this is the emotional response to people who start talking about men do this and women do that.

     I have no kinship with those men, as I hope most females have no kinship with violent women. This is about those of us who reject violence in our personal lives (the vast majority of people) versus the small minority who employ it. Those are the sides of the dichotomy…not male and female. Most of us are on the same team. My kinship is with the non-violent. Can we communicate as if that were the case?

     No one is saying that the nature of enduring aggression from others isn’t slightly different as a female, or more vulnerable. Of course it is. But what’s the solution?

     It’s for the non-violent people to be prepared to encounter those violent, aggressive types they inevitably will encounter. To confront these sociopaths verbally (which will stop 99% of situations and discourage that person from similar future behavior) and be prepared to defend yourself physically, if need be. Embracing that there is an ugly minority of people who will use violence and being prepared to face them frees us to enjoy our interactions with the vast majority of people who are not like that.

     The other side of the coin is to have empathy for EVERYONE who has suffered from violence, intimidation, abuse, etc. Male and female. Let’s love each other and learn how to defend ourselves from the predators among us.

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476. Reblogged this on Boyalemo Blog.

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477. I wonder the age of the author. Sounds like she is looking for a way to be offended. And YES, she did purport to speak for all women.. look at the title of the piece. The era of victimhood.

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478. This is unfortunately the world we live in. The “Walgreens” perfect world doesn’t nor will never exist. I am now a near 30 yr old male. 1/4 costa rican, 3/4 white. The dark features came through very strong. I can’t imagine what a real immigrant experiences. I experienced horrendous racism growing up as a child. So much so that at the age of 10 I sat in a corner and plucked every hair from my body. Eyebrows, head, everything. I then took a bath with bleach water to try and “whiten” myself so I would fit in and stop getting beaten up. I would get Taco Bell burritos smashed in my face on the school bus, and adults would talk really slow to me like I had a disability so I could understand their English. As an adult, the white has definitely come through more than the dark features, but I now wish the opposite. My point? The world is a crappy place, the only way to get through is to look at the glass as full as possible and not dwell on the empty portion.

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479. I hear you, and some of the commenters too. Possibly, the answer is to admit vulnerability and find a way to use it as a tool. We are all vulnerable, and we don’t always lash out as a protective mechanism.
     Karen, the era of victimhood has been around for the last 1000 years, but saying that something hurts is frequently the first step in making it stop hurting. Yes, we know that this person or that one overcame all the obstacles in their life, but guess what, I’m not them, and you aren’t either. Lay off your judgmental BS, and try to improve the world.

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480. This article, while true in many cases, I have now determined was “clickbait”… and yeah, guilty as charged here, it worked on me.
     Who wouldn’t want to know the absolute truth about “all” of one gender or another… this has been well proven as false, and had I thought for more than an instant I’d have realized there is no absolute truth to be had.

     So by throwing “all” women into the same boat, there’s bound to be lots of confict.. again, it’s clickbait.

     Just don’t take what I say here to mean that men shouldn’t listen, or that I condone the conduct that’s offensive

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481. Ok: I really don’t care about catcalls. I don’t care about men glancing at my breasts (I do that myself to other women and I’m a heterosexual woman) or hitting on me in bars or making comments, giving compliments in the street. I also don’t care about people in general making comments, good or bad, or looking at me, whether they’re male or female. I don’t think this piece is about that.
     I was molested when I was 7 years old. A 20 something year old man lay down on top of me, ground his crotch into me, slid his fingers up my skirt and under my panties and asked me if it felt good. I held my breath and said yes. Because he was bigger than me. Because he was on top of me. And because I was afraid of what else would happen if I said no. If I cried, if I screamed, if I tried to push him off of me. And I didn’t tell anyone about it until nearly a decade later. And when I did, the people I told minimalized it. I didn’t tell anyone because I was afraid of him and I was afraid of what other people would do. I was afraid that they would do exactly what they did. Even after I moved across the country, he contacted me. Sent me a pair of earrings from Hawaii. Whenever I looked at them, I was reminded of his smell. Of the feeling of him pressed against me, wriggling, worming, invading inside me. And I blamed myself. For years, I blamed myself and I let it go and eventually it was just this thing that happened. I let other men take advantage of me and I blamed myself for that, too. I de-escalated. I minimalized.
     I think that is what this piece is about. There are things that happen to women every day, things that make them feel powerless, things that make them feel guilty for no reason, things that make them feel actually, really threatened, and they-we-brush it off, let it go, think it’s our fault. We minimalize because we’re afraid that if we say something, there will be consequences.
     I’m well aware that not all men are like that. I know that there are good men, that they’re not all predators. But when you’re 5’5″ and 110 lbs, everyone bigger and stronger than you is a potential threat. So no, I don’t trust complete strangers. I barely trust people I know well. Because I’ve experienced what can happen. Even with someone you know, love, trust and have lived with for 3 years.
     It’s not really men. It’s people. Women minimalize with other women as well. We learn that you can’t trust anybody. That everybody has the potential to hurt you beyond measure.
     It’s not a blame game. It’s not a war between genders. It’s people. People suck. Every once in a while you find one who doesn’t suck.
     But don’t minimalize. Don’t think it’s your fault. Honestly, there are times when de-escalation is the appropriate choice. And there are times when it isn’t.
     This piece is just saying that a lot of men don’t actually know what women do to make thieir lives livable. What we write off, what we put up with, what we dismiss without even thinking about it because that’s what we have to do. We analyze, assess, and react appropriately. If the appropriate response is to be offended, then maybe that’s what we do. If the situation warrants caution, then we proceed with caution.
     Everybody does it. Male, female, attractive, unattractive….
     I’m out. I’m done.

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482. Reblogged this on ☀️ army of one ☀️.

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483. What the article expressed to me is an unnamed social dynamic that occurs with women because of society’s over-arching acceptance of a facade-type masculinity that allows for men to be superior to women. If this kind of social dynamic is in place, then women must act according to a male-dominated society. This is not a “battle of the sexes.” The phrase battle of the sexes is very male centered and chauvinistic itself. What this is, to me, is a call for humanity–for people to be aware of what kind of social, sexual, and gendered world they live in. The society (neoliberal Westernized modern) has created a space where men have an advantage in nearly every element. To ignore this element is to ignore everything one views on the television, movie theater screen, hears on the radio, and listens to in songs. This society is corrupt, and this is one example of it. If this situation were abstracted and thought of as being “a being” and “another being,” why should these two beings act in this fashion? It is because society plasters each being with a meaning, constructs, behavioral patterns, and expectations, making the beings almost beyond recognition. Human beings have souls (I am an atheist and I believe this), souls that are inclined toward joy and sorrow and love and despair. Without the trappings of conventional society, we are creatures that are exceedingly simple. We want love.

     This article is trying to express something deeply problematic and does a good job. It is a foray into the broader social constructs that dominate our world. Think: if a woman must deal with this more than a man, what of people with different skin, culture, heritage, background, social standing, social class, social skills, sociability, or otherwise muted, concealed advantages in this world?

     You must question and you must think and you must not balk, because true power comes from ideas, and ideas will unchain you. Meanwhile at this moment another woman goes through profiling and the society chugs on without recognition. Yet, never think that talking is not power. Words are our greatest power. Use them and use them well, and continue to think, because without thought there is no soul.

     – E

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484. Listen, I don’t want to be a minimalist but F. off. Come on the amount of boo hooing about this is really getting annoying. It is the same as the bullying phenomenon. Suck it up! this kind of shit is what is making the next generation of kids a bunch of pussies. (pardon the expression). feel free to comment or debate….

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485. Brilliant. I love what you wrote. More please!

     And the result of this effects everyone. I as a man have less authentic relationships with everyone in my life because of the impact of sexism. My women friends withhold and my men friends also have impoverished relationships and as less skilled at relating. My boys are unable to experience the fullness of life and neither are my daughters. I am still learning the extent sexism effects my marriage and how arrested the development of my lovers has been.

     What you’ve said is beautiful and true. More please.

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486. This is so true! I got cat-called by 3 guys on the train during rush hour this summer and tried to ignore it. However, then they continued to have a very loud, graphic and demeaning conversation about why they deserved sexual favors from women. It was clear that everyone within earshot was VERY uncomfortable. I wanted to call them out because that kind of behavior is simply unacceptable! But that felt instinctively unsafe (even though I was in a crowd of other like-minded people) and I didn’t know what I should say that wouldn’t just result in these guys being defensively dismissive – something that would make them think again instead of shrug it off. So I didn’t say anything.

     It felt so wrong to just leave it and that still bothers me today. I don’t feel guilty, but it was clear these guys did not understand that their behavior was unacceptable, demeaning to both women and men. If none of us ever communicate that sentiment, then I know behaviors like that will not change. I know exactly how scary and intimidating it is to stand up to this alone, so I’m asking for your help to stand beside me.

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487. So many comments seem oblivious that they’re proving exactly what the author says.

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488. Men have forgotten their role in life. We nurture, nourish and bring life into the world. THEY PROVIDE AND PROTECT! They’ve forgotten to protect!

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489. So true! The way sexism impacts our lives is quite underrated and the extent to which it pervades every single aspect of life where I live is quite similar to what you wrote.

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490. “There’s this thing that happens whenever I speak about or write about Young Earth Creationism. Things like God creating the Earth in six days, the Earth being only 5000 years old and miracles. I get the comments: Aren’t there more important things to worry about? Is this really that big of a deal? Aren’t you being overly sensitive? Are you sure you’re being rational about this?

     Every. Single. Time.

     And every single time I get frustrated. Why don’t they get it?

     I think I’ve figured out why.

     They don’t know.”

     I stopped reading after this piece of sappy emotional rhetoric.

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491. Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is so very true!
     For me the ogling started at 10 years old. I still remember at that age walking into a store near a construction site and 3 men nearby turned to stare at the child who had developed early. I learned early to make situational awareness an important part of how I walked through life.

     For those saying, “It’s not that hard to tell them to leave you alone”…that’s not the point. The point is that you should not have to be constantly putting up walls, wearing your armor, fending off men, living on the alert similar to a soldier in a war zone.

     Sexual abuse as a young teen, walking down the aisle at the grocery store and a couple of fun arm wrestling matches with my male friends taught me pretty quickly that a man was something to be feared and that is something I have never forgotten. I have chosen to not live my life in fear, but instead to take measures to keep myself safe. I carry concealed, I am always aware of my surroundings, people nearby, etc. I am not afraid because I know I can handle a situation were it to become actually dangerous, but I am still always on my guard…at home, at work, in a coffee shop. The only time I ever relax is while in the company of a man I trust and there are not many of them.

     One experience that still infuriates me to this day was once when I was 20 years old when I went with a group of friends to tour a city, one of those friends was my almost boyfriend. While walking through a park, 2 rough looking men walked past, saw me and grinned. I was not on my guard at that moment, I was with several strong guys and perfectly safe. I didn’t think much of it until later that evening when we discovered those same men following us and make gestures at me. Again, didn’t think much of it, it was normal life for me. But my boyfriend did not see it that way. He was angry, broke up with me because he decided I was a flirt, had wanted the attention from those gross men and was not the kind of woman he wanted to be with.

     My teenage brothers think I carry a firearm because it makes me feel tough or maybe because I think I might get robbed of the $5 in my purse. They don’t understand that my reality is that since I started carrying, I don’t feel afraid anymore. I no longer clutch my keys between my fingers or keep my thumb on the switch of my pepper spray knowing that neither of those will be that effective if a man really wants me. My heart no longer jumps into my chest in quite the same way any time a rough looking man walks too close.

     I think if women are going to change these things, the answer is to take back the power for ourselves. Don’t put yourself in a position of being forced to always depend on a man to help you, a good man will not always be there, but a bad man will be. Get yourself a firearm and learn how to use it. Learn to walk, talk and carry yourself with confidence. Don’t be a victim. If enough of us do this and teach our daughters to do this, we will command the respect of weak and strong men alike.

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     1. guns=not the answer. Not the point of the post, though. Just had to say. I’m guessing you’re American.

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     2. As stated previously guns are not the answer, that’s not how mass social behaviour is changed, it just makes the world bloodier.

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     3. My girlfriend often said “CHIVALRY” was dead. And as a woman with her masters degree in Psychology and employed as a school counselor I have heard more than my share of authenticate cases of sexual harassment, sexual molestation and she was a childhood victim herself. I am also a counselor and very much aware of the plight women face. However, I am also a gentleman, and normal civil behavior such as holding a door open for a woman, just like I do for an elderly man or woman for can be mistaken for being “overly friendly” or flirtatious depending on the woman and her level of awareness and confidence, or her over estimation of her “desirability”, and often at school I encounter college age women that have an unrealistic,over inflated EGO, delusional, in thinking that men are attracted to them or staring at them in class, when actually, they are looking at the clock that hangs right above where they sit. But because so many women overestimated their desirability and they are so self centered, self absorbed, they think they are being checked out, when actually the guys are just repeatedly “looking at the clock” waiting for time to pass. . Most civilized, educated men do not engage in the behavior described, and I have personally engaged and fought these animals because I am trained to do so. My father was a Marine and I was raised to respect women, I could talk back to my dad, but if I spoke disrespectfully towards my mother I was going to get a severe lecture on what it means to be a real man . Many women think they are being hit on, when they are just being treated as equals. My girlfriend, who is at a near genius level of intelligence declares that one of the worst things that ever happened to Women was in this society was the feminist movement, If women want to be treated respectfully, then “so many women have to start, acting respectful towards “womanhood’. When women carry on the double standard of flaunting their breast, being overly revealing and not practicing a certain level of decorum they bring disrespect to all women, The subconscious minds of all people, men and women absorb almost everything they see and hear without intending to do so. This “subconscious; behavior is often exhibited unintentionally, inadvertently without even intending to be offensive. Now when you have 3 construction workers ogling a 10 year old girl, the first thing I would do is ask them if they have children at home, or sisters, cousins, etc. and how would they feel about a family member being treated as such. Shaming a man is very effective, especially when in a group as at least one of those 3 guys is going to have a child or someone that he can relate to, being in this situation. Then again, sometimes you have total jerks, more so in big cities, where they have the sense of anonymity, or the “Pack Mentality” of wolves. In that case, castrate them all, not physically but verbally. But as long as you have a large populations of women, dressing like hookers or the Hollywood plastic people ( And I mean Literally plastic) on the red carpets, with breast, intentionally exposed, flaunting their bodies, they are going to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

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492. As a bloke, it was interesting to read your article, and to be honest you’re right! I really had no idea it may have been this frequently, and this bad. I mean i suppose i can relate in a way, as a cyclist there isn’t the infrastructure on the roads to ride in Britain additionally on a cyclist path pedestrians don’t recognise the pathing or speed of a cyclist who can easily reach 20 mph. It’s interesting because we are very vulnerable on the road and get shunned on the pavement, I suppose it’s a less extreme version.
     If i were to draw a few comparisons like wearing that extra fluorescence jacket in order to get noticed and as a result cooking because of the exercise. Must be similar to not wearing tight dresses to feel like a piece of meat.
     But the elephant in the room is that as humans we shouldn’t have to do extra things just to protect us on the road/ or be scrutinised.
     What do you think would actually help this situation?
     I can think of an issue which may influence behaviour, like the sexualisation of women on tv in order to promote perfume. If an advert treats a woman as lustful, or as an object for sex, maybe this has an impact on social behaviour?

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     1. You are absolutely right there Bloke, when half the women in the world dress to look like hookers and seek attention by flaunting their breast, etc,. just look at any magazine cover showing the Hollywood ” red carpet” crowd where it seems to be a contest to see who can wear the least clothing, they degrade all women. It is just like the “waif look” where anorexia seems to be the desired standard, dangerously warping the minds of young women. As a psychologist with 2 daughters of a teen and preteen age, I am glad my daughters have developed a realistic “body image” concept, helped by being involved in athletics, soccer, baseball, softball and sports where, you can be feminine, but also want to have muscles and strength to compete.And my 13 year old girl could kick the average 13 year old boys butt in any sport and also in an actual fight, as we have trained, and usually men don’t become actually become physically stronger until just about at their current age.

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493. Sorry, love, started reading and then stopped when you said that we don’t react because we’re afraid to be called a bitch. Let me tell you a story. I was raped by a classmate when I was 14. My mother told me “so, what” when I told her, some years after. It made me be like the women you describe: scared, fearful, weak, subservient. But then I had to deal with it, or die, and it wasn’t much of a choice. So I dealt with it. I dealt with him, and I dealt with feeling lesser. End of story. So, deal with it. No, really, deal with it. Stop being afraid, and small and meek and subservient as if something’s bad’s gonna happen to you if you don’t. Nothing WORSE is gonna happen to you than you already do to yourself by perpetuating this mentality. Oh, and when you start being labeled a bitch, that’s the indication that you’re doing things RIGHT. Not wrong. Good luck to you.

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     1. I am sorry for you, BUT, Your mother was wrong, and SICK., , and at age 14 my daughters, unless he was a much larger male, would have been hut and at least would have had one eye gouged with their thumbs . BECAUSE WHEN YOU PLUCK A GUYS EYE OUT, THEY USUALLY RECOIL RAPIDLY. EVERY WOMAN SHOULD BE TRAINED TO DO THIS….IT SHOULD BE A CLASS IN SCHOOL. I can tell you that when you GOUGE OUT A MANS EYE, OR RIP OFF HIS EAR, HIS FOCUS IS IMMEDIATELY CHANGED. Most people think that a fight is to guys hitting each other, I live in the Ozarks, Springfield Missouri and I am a man of God and a peaceful man, I also am a professional, but I so trained in martial arts, and boxing, but I have been in two flights in the last 5 years and as I work with ex-cons and drug addicts and alcoholics, and attacked twice, and I fight as if my life depends on it because it does. I will first punch someone in the throat, which can cause death, and at least will make it extremely difficult to breathe, if I am taken to the ground I will gouge out an eye, bite off an ear, THAT IS WHAT A FIGHT IS. AND EVERY WOMAN NEEDS TO KNOW THIS.

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        1. is this humor? you are going yo rip someones ear off?? i dont think so..you need help sir.

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494. I’ve never thought of myself as a feminist, in fact I used to hear about feminism even as a woman myself and think who cares? However moving to the Middle East has really opened my eyes into century’s old habits that men make and the way women are seen literally as second class citizens that not I even notice that not all of these ways have disappeared from the western world. So much that all of the things you wrote about really struck a chord with me. This post isn’t an attack on men, feminism needs to be held by everyone until we make enough difference, it’s certainly not something to ever be brushed aside by anyone. All of the things you have written are true for most women! Loved this X

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495. Reblogged this on A work in progress and commented:
     This is an amazing read.

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496. Wow! The comments to this article really show how embedded this sexist mentality is in our culture and how hard (and subconsciously) we work to disown and deny it!

     Disappointing and distressing.

     The article itself — lucid, real, and more pertinent than most of its readers seem to understand.

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497. whether it’s written with a broad brush or not, religion perpetuates it, language perpetuates it, and misguided expectations perpetuate it. And the fact of the matter is, ALL men own this. Men, sitting in their privileged chairs, benefiting from the rules they wrote, using the resources they pretty much raped from everyone else, they own it. You can’t have 70% of the political power in the hands of less than 50% of the population and think there isn’t a problem. You can’t have 95% of the private power in the hands of 30% of the population and think there isn’t an imbalance. We can blame biology, argue men are at the mercy of their uncontrolable sex drive, but let’s face it, we stopped being Neanderthals a long time ago.

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     1. OK… for one.. lets accept that there are regional differences in the prevalence of the issues at hand.
        For starters.. I have only witnessed catcalling and lewdness (in person) less than a handful of times.. and most of them were by my roommate at the time, who was a complete and utter asshole.. manipulative, narcissistic, and an egomaniac… surprisingly, he had GREAT success with women.

        Now how about where I DO notice lewd behavior, unwanted sexual advances, sexual objectification on a DAILY basis??
        THE MEDIA
        So until we stop promoting (by watching) shows and movies with this behavior, we’re never going to get anywhere trying to change anything.. Young, influenceable minds will gladly accept this as being acceptable behavior, and take it a step further as REQUIRED behavior in order to get attention from the opposite sex…Guess what.. for the most part, they’re correct, because that sort of behavior DOES work.

        So for the women.. try and be conscientious of this behavior.. don’t fall for it if you’re against it..
        And for everyone, stop supporting the media where it doesn’t agree with your views

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        1. Ah, ok, so it’s been the media’s fault that men have thought that they have more rights than women since before the media existed? This is the same argument as “the media made those kids shoot other kids”, “the media made those guys rape those girls”, “music made those kids kill themselves”….etc. THE MEDIA isn’t at fault here. The CULTURE and the propagation of that culture from generation to generation is to blame. Individuals are to blame. The media reflects the culture, not the other way around.

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           1. The media certainly can’t be blamed for starting it, because you’re right… the issue has been around far long than the media has.. but they seem to be perfectly happy to keep it going… why? because sex sells… and so does violence. It’s on all of us collectively to recognize this and at least support media which reinforces positive behavior if we can’t eliminate the bad.

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498. I love this site come visit mine good day 🙂

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499. Thank you for the insite as a father of four daughters and husband I need to hear this so I can learn to listen better.

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500. How do we expect to allow increasing numbers of unsocial men (internet age) become better at interacting with women WITHOUT there being some tension. Maybe in many cases; the reason men behave in a way that is uncomfortable could be because they are socially awkward even behaving aggressively as a front to break out of their dis-ability with meeting women? I am biased but as a man in college trying to sort through this myself i can say that over the last 2 years of me actively approaching i have probably disturbed and made many women uncomfortable. I have made it through this phase and can now relate to women in a comfortable friendly, sexual if warranted way and can gauge (better than before) such that I am now able to have girlfriend etc. I fear that a kind of closed mindset common here does not allow space for men to develop and learn how to interact. I believe social openness is needed in both sexes; the men making people uncomfortable spawns from social leading to sexual inhibition; the rapist being the extreme case? although the social climate plays a role i feel its more important or at least not talked enough to deal with it on a personal level IE self development and personal responsibility. Perspective from the other side possibly under represented ..?..

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     1. The reality here is that you can not expect women like myself who have been raped and assaulted to “Be patient” and baby men into some level of understanding when we are the ones in danger because of the men’s actions. If men are going to understand where we are coming from, they are going to have to hear some things that make them uncomfortable without claiming that the women should be more lenient with them. They are going to have to just hear some things that make them feel uncomfortable and acknowledge that they themselves are the ones who need to make some changes to level the playing field. It is not up to us to continue de-escalating for men’s comfort, it should in fact be the other way around since mostly, men are not in danger from us, and are not made to feel on edge every second of their existence because of women’s treatment.

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        1. If we want men to de-excelate women need to learn to excelate and approach, everytime a women leaves this up to the man (common in western macho bs culture) it insites the very over aggressiveness we see. We cannot expect men to simply de-escelate/approaching less as unless women make up the difference, we will end up like japan where relationships just dont happen! This is horrible! Romance is beautiful right? Go ahead and level the playing field right?…

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        2. Agree. But if the man in question is consistently defensive to the point of anger and yelling, dominating the conversation in order to deny it, what woman wants to put herself through repeated shouting matches with an uninsightful, entitled clod? For his benefit OR hers?

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           1. I’m on board with all this. I hope this bit is helpful for all. If not, I’m sorry and I’ll read the replies and try to adjust.
              There was a time if a woman unexpectedly pointed something out to me about how my behavior might have come across, it sometimes seemed to a younger me to be coming from just over a threshold beyond which polite denial must become deep frustration, even disgust: that I should have known better and therefore was being intentionally insensitive or mean or cruel or entitled or reckless as the case may be.
              As a guy who has never been warmly embraced by the macho community, I felt (felt) so starkly condemned at some of those call-outs that I did sometimes react in panic with vehement defensiveness, which only made things worse. I felt like I was being cast out and condemned, sometimes by people I loved, so I felt that defending myself was utterly urgent, and listening just felt like having my sentence read. I know. I haven’t had an experience like that in a long time but if I do, I hope I respond with quiet compassion and listen rather than argue regardless of how I saw myself in the situation.
              Almost everybody wants to be forgiven, enlightened, and worthy of trust. I’ve always really wanted to be fair, honest, open-minded and kind, and since I already had ptsd from some of the kinds of things in macho culture this article talks about, I was often surprised the times I was called-out, but always willing to listen and change and always super grateful to be given the explanation and opportunity to become a better person instead of condemnation (and in those cases I may’ve been the 14th man that week to do something stupid, or it may’ve been the 14th time that week that I’d done something stupid and I needed to be brought around immediately, for which I’m grateful for the lack of politeness).
              There were times when it may’ve helped being told “stop defending yourself, it’s okay but what you said/did is not ok and here’s why, big picture: Listen to me, you said what you said it’s my turn to talk.” It may’ve made me feel like I’m back in 4th grade being misunderstood and ostracized by mean teachers again, or whatever trap it springs. But I’m listening. There were times I was simply sent away to go figure it out myself, and I didn’t always succeed and repeated the mistake until someone finally explained it to me, no matter how obvious it may be once you know.
              I think communication is a lot better now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. The message might get spread even to the most intransigent from those who are listening. I hope so. We deserve better.

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              1. Looks like I’m still defending myself even now. No need for it.

        3. important interaction….wow..we need lots of this. I m going to suggest that we start to understand by going to the source..looking inward to the masculine and feminine principals within each of us. and to the virtues of each . since we are polar opposites we could first sort out the complimentary gifts of each. and how each has the key to help the other. e.g…fem. principal creates all..masc. structures all. because our world views all through the male lens..both genders are very confused and distort everything so to untangle..go to source!

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           1. Agree, go to the source then, we are all conscious and aware, gender comes and goes yet awareness we all share, identify as a male or female, good-luck you damn fucking fools!, your testicles will shrink your vagina will dry up, gay, straight, estrogen, testosterone, genes are a swarm, these things are all in flux, impermanence and unsubstantial life with reference point, no ground no ceiling, underneath superficial appearances there is no person – have a look why dont you! the whole thing is just so damn stupid; stop identifying yourself you are selling yourself way to short

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     2. So basically men should be able to make women feel uncomfortable whenever they want, in the spirit of learning, but women need to stop making men uncomfortable by trying to actually help them learn? If you want to get better at interacting with women, try some empathy on for size. Learning is uncomfortable. You should be the one to bear the burden of that discomfort, not the women you use to improve your social skills.

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        1. Please, abort any male children you will have. Women tell little boys 2 and 3 years old that “their feelings don’t matter”, or “man up” or worse, that “their goals are not important” as if only little girls dreams and goals are important.

           A lot of the women commenting in this blog should not give birth to male children because they will only abuse them with the concept that ‘a male’s life doesn’t matter.’

           Please abort all male children. At least until you women grow up.

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           1. Actually, you don’t have to abort boys. Just tell the little boy he’s “acting like a girl” and your problem will be solved. If I could punch your face, I would.

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              1. Violence against men, double standards must there MAC.

           2. You have serious issues. Seriously, I don’t know what your mother did to you, but I’m sorry that she was apparently so dismissive. And if she wasn’t, then where are you getting these ideas that mothers are the parents who tell their little boys to “man up” etc? For the most part, that’s the dads. Get professional help.

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              1. I’ve personally seen/witness mothers behaving like this. This lawyer person isn’t too far wrong.

           3. From one man to another, shut up idiot. You make us all look bad.

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     3. This is so sad but so true, at 12 an exhibitionist showed himself to me on my way back home from school, at 14 a stranger touched my butt going up the stairs to a Red Cross CPR training, at 15 a guy I did not know but I turned down for a dance blew up on me calling me all short of things, at 19 a band I auditioned for asked me to lift my skirt to see my legs because I was going to have to dress a certain way if I was going to be the front woman, at 23 another stranger touched my butt walking down 5th Ave in New York, it was 2 pm. At 40 a coworker asked me to have sex with him out of the blue, just because he knew that we would be so good together. There have been others but I yelled at them and althought I have been called crazy and femenist as an insult they don’t weight on me because I did something. The ones I listed avove I deescalated. I hope this article unite tespextful people to speak up when tgos kind of abuse happens to you or you see it happening to someone.

        Reply

     4. There’s a distinction between feeling uncomfortable and feeling unsafe, and worrying about being embarrassed versus harmed.

        In my personal experience, whenever people try to avoid an uncomfortable situation, it always results in a bigger hurt later on. It’s also possible I’m very different from most women and most men. I’m the kind of person who wants people to be open and honest with me, even if I don’t like what they have to say. It’s still better than the uncertainty of not knowing and the pain of finding out the truth later on.

        In terms of dating, there’s a big difference between being afraid to ask someone out because they might say no and being afraid of saying no because you don’t know how poorly the person will take it, up to the point of physical aggression. Asking someone out wouldn’t be as big an ordeal for all parties involved if people coped with rejection better in the first place. We need to accept that liking someone does not obligate them to return the feelings. It’s okay to ask, but it’s also okay to say ‘no’ and be told ‘no.’

        Also, people don’t become rapists as an extreme reaction to the complexities of dating. They become rapists because they don’t respect personal autonomy and they choose to impose their will on others. It’s irresponsible to imply that rape is ever a consequence of someone else’s actions or the subtle nuances of dating.

        Personally this article was interesting for me because I never de-escalated when I was a girl, except in conflicts with other girls. It didn’t happen when men until I was a young adult, and I think it was because of too many years of people (male and female) marginalizing me for daring to advocate for myself. After so many years of being bullied, I bought into it and no longer felt that I deserved better. In that sense, the onus is on everyone, male and female, not to discourage people from rocking the boat when need be.

        As a mother of boys, I don’t take lightly my responsibility to raise them with self confidence and the ability to take ‘no’ graciously.

        Reply

501. Wow, just the dialogue here gives insight to each person’s own observation of our world. “Ignorance is Bliss” as the saying goes.
     There is the evil of omission and commission…one is committing the wrong, while the other turns a blind eye and allows it to continue. If ignorance is anyone’s choice in a world of full access to information on the World Wide Web, then we must question the intent of such a close minded individual. Then again, ethics and equality is not a subject distributed to all schools of thought.

     Just a suggestion to anyone that is interested “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft is very informative.

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502. Hey Gretchen, I have just discovered your blog. This is a brilliant article! Thank you for it!

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503. Hi Gretchen,

     Thank you !
     This is so real to me too. I’m Parisian. I’m desperate to explain to my buddies how it is to be a woman in a alleged modern society.
     They just don’t get it.
     Worse, some of them think we like to get unwanted attention.
     But they don’t realize that we don’t want RUDE unwanted attention. And that’s 99% of the case.
     They don’t understand the violence of some behaviour even if it seems tiny to most of people.
     We are then accused to overreact.
     I have been accused to overreact. To be too sensitive.

     I sometimes wish I would be a man for a day to understand what it is to walk around free, to not worry in the evening, to not feel the stress of being stared at in the subway etc…

     My ex said he had been hit on quite explicitly once in his life by a woman in the metro…made him super uncomfortable.
     But I’m not sure he makes the connection with what we endure on a regular basis.

     I have chosen to leave Paris, even though I love my city.
     I left not only for that but now that I love in the Netherlands I feel the pressure is gone.

     I can wear feminine clothes again without fearing harassment.
     I had to wait to be 40 for that… Great !

     We should publish a list of all the things we do they are not aware of…

     Reply

     1. …now that I LIVE in the Netherlands of course…but I love too :o))

        Reply

     2. Men do not go around as worry-free as you think. Women come across a kind of violence, men come across another one.
        We most definitely need to be careful in the evening. We may not get sexually harassed, but the number of men who just snap out at other men for no reason at all may surprise you. I already had to defend myself from some of such situations. We come across violent harassement very often. So we do our best to avoid it: act tough, put a badass face on etc. and you may get away with it. But if a man looks weak, be sure he will be an easy and frequent target for such kinds of violence. I train hard at the gym and learnt martial arts precisely to have a chance at defending myself when the time comes.

        And yes, your boyfriend may have been superuncomfortable when a woman hit on him, but that is because usually it’s men that go after a girl. Which also explains why so many more women have a partner with respect to men. As a man, it’s INCREDIBLY hard to get a girlfriend if you’re not a walking god who can get anyone he wants. I have female friends who had 8 partner in the only 4 years. That is insane for a man. But of course, having it easier than men (and women do have it easier, on average <= key word "average", not always) also has its bad sides: unwanted attention. Men, on the other hand, do not get as much unwanted attention, but "on average" have it MUCH harder to find someone. And this is not a small problem, because what kind of life is a life with no love/affection? I may have a job that pays well, a nice house and a nice car, but if I don't have a partner I feel like I failed at life. I'd much rather have a partner and work as a cashier, than be rich but lonely.

        I do not want to get into a superlong comment, I highlighted only one side of being a man. We do not have the same problems as women, but we have other ones that very often do not get talked about. This is one of the reasons for which over 80% of the suicides have a man as a victim (which relates to the previously mentioned feeling of loneliness most men experience), and more than 85% of the homeless people are men, for instance, just to mention two problems derived from how society wants us to act.

        Reply

        1. Hi sorry, maybe it’s cultural, I do not know what you are talking about.
           In Paris, the % of singles is higher with women than men at least at a younger age (til 30-40) then it tends to invert… So we’re on equal grounds (I just checked the numbers to confirm this)

           And I don’t understand why you talk about the “problem” of being lonely following a comment and an article speaking about general harassment women have to go through.

           None of my buddies feel unsafe when they go out. Some have been in fights but at least they were equal to the other guys…which I will never be, being petite.
           Learning Jujitsu and Aikido was not very fruitful for me either…

           So let’s remain practical. It is a fact that women get (on top of all the things you’ve mentioned) sexual harassment on a regular basis (even my mum who’s 66) that we get raped more than men (numbers in France for last year were something like : 93 or 94 % of sexual victims were female/ 96 or 97 % of perps were males)

           So what are you trying to say ?

           That guys have their problems too ?
           As if in “we weren’t aware of it” ?
           Guys get harassment ?
           Yes, and fyi we sympathize…which is not the case of your gender counterparts (I’ve heard from guys about this subject that guys who get abused are sissies, are pussies, weak, faggots etc…) so who is unfair here ?

           + It is proven that women get lower salaries for the same job (at least in France, the rate is almost 20% less)

           As I said before, I have many buddies, I love men, I get on with them, but honestly for some things they are ignorant, this is how it is.

           But please be aware that coming up with a post mentioning loneliness as a guy in response to my (our) everyday harassment experience in Paris makes me think that maybe the reason I get harassed is that guys are lonely…
           Is this your message??
           I hope not.

           I think your post is missing the point.
           Did you understand what we are even talking about ?

           I think you are talking about yourself (most my buddies had much more girlfriends that I had boyfriends…but indeed some had less…that’s life, that’s personal)

           Sorry, I don’t mean to be harsh but I don’t know what you are talking about.

           Take care.

           Reply

        2. “As a man, it’s INCREDIBLY hard to get a girlfriend if you’re not a walking god who can get anyone he wants.”

           Now that made me laugh because the same complaint is made by women – if you don’t conform to the current “standard” of beauty, it’s impossible to find a good boyfriend. I think both sides should be more open in the choices for dating. In any case that’s not relevant to the writers discussion.

           On the rest, in a big city everyone has to be watchful because muggings happen, violence happens, but it is worse for women because women are assumed to be easy targets. When given a choice between a random male and female target, the criminal is going to most likely go for the woman. Even though we both have the threat of violence, we as women also have to worry about everything the author mentions as part of our “typical” life as a woman, things I also have experienced: being touched in the subway, being manhandled by a date the first time meeting, sexual harassment on the street, professors making inappropriate comments about women’s bodies, not taken as seriously as a professional as men in the same field, having to lie about having a boyfriend, and more but I’ll stop here.

           I get what you’re saying that men have their issues but if you take all that I have mentioned and say it happened to a man, people will be shocked and appalled; if you say it happened to a woman, everyone will nod that it’s expected as a woman at some point to have these experiences. That’s what needs to change, none of these things should be a “typical” part of someone’s experiences. You have to have respect for and treat others with respect no matter what is going on with you personally. Period.

           Reply

           1. Well this is straight up false.
              http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf
              Go to page 6.
              Men are more likely to be victims of violence than women. That’s a very large sample of data collected by the federal government of the United States of America. It’s not a one-off, either.
              So there’s the “easy target” myth.

              Everything else is about comfort and status, not actual safety.
              Yet for some reason, I always, always see those two absurdly conflated.
              If you want to be empowered, stop feeling threatened by things that don’t actually threaten you.
              I’m not saying those things are justified or appropriate; I am saying that you will be better off learning to shrug them off rather than being engaged in a community and ideology that promotes hypersensitivity.
              This discussion, this original blog post, was about women constantly trying to be safe. Not comfortable, safe.
              One problem:
              I think the author is overly fearful. I think most of her behaviors are completely unnecessary. I think being overly fearful is an extremely common neurosis, among both men and women*, and that fixating on it in this fashion can exacerbate it.
              I also appreciate that these neuroses are difficult patterns to identify and fix; and that it’s very common and very easy to externalize blame instead of developing the insight to ask how much of one’s fear is rational, and how best to be safe while minimizing fear.

              Oh, and people have catcalled me and said lewd things to me, as a man. Men and women have been sleazy and inappropriate to me. I was weirded out the first time or two, coming out of my sheltered youth; then I took it in stride. People have been nuisances to me, and I learn to negotiate those circumstances with some balance of tact and self-interest.
              You can do that too.

              *Though as a man, my greatest fears are of social rejection; the kind of rejection that often finds a valid basis in reality due to others’ irrational fears.

              Reply

        3. The problems men and women face are different but the root cause is the same. Society sets forth a certain set of expectations for men around dominance and male entitlement. Those who do not thrive in such an environment may take it out on women, and those who do thrive still act out aggressively toward anyone, male or female, simply because they can.

           Humans like to fancy ourselves as better than other animals, and rather than confront our baser animal instincts so that we can truly rise above them, we rationalize and make excuses for them instead.

           Now plenty of people can and do rise above it, but only because they are open to discussion, even uncomfortable ones.

           Reply

504. wow just wow..im really blown away by your ability to lie about your own role in all these situations..birds of a feather flock together…when you hang around thieves you will have some of your property stolen from you eventually..You are the captain of your own ship in life..you choose where to hang out, with whom and what type of establishment to frequent..when men go to the shitty side of town and end up in a situation, they dont blame someone else the next day..they just own it..its time women like yourself quit complaining and start owning it..you choose everything in life and some shit is random but not realyy if you trace your thoughts and footsteps back far enough..grow up please.

     Reply

     1. I obviously can’t respond to every comment, since there are well over a thousand here and on the multiple Huffington Post pages (published in 6 languages so far) and over 2 million views here on my personal blog. In other words? This struck a nerve. Rang true for so many women. Struck a chord with so many men who were touched by this. But your comment caught me at a moment when I have a few minutes to respond.

        What you so elegantly call “complaining” I call speaking. Yep. Speaking about something most of us experience. Alas, some people will consider anyone saying anything that makes them the *tiniest* bit uncomfortable or anything that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows as “complaining.” You may want to examine why a woman speaking and writing about something that is a part of their life is so threatening to you? You may want to examine why you feel the need to react with such venom and disdain? Just a thought. Sometimes self examination leads us to understand ourselves better.

        I am in no way a victim. I have been through some shit in my life. But you know what? I’m happy. I have a great life. I’m incredibly lucky. These things I write about? They are just things that happen. They are things I shrug off half the time. But do they make me feel uncomfortable? Yes. Do they make me feel a little scared at times? Yes. Do I want my daughters to experience this? Nope. Do I want them to walk through the world oblivious to the dangers? Nope. Especially when bad things happen to women who are alone. Just last week there was an attempted abduction of a woman across the street from where I live. In a quiet suburban “safe” neighborhood. She was taking a walk. Hmmm… maybe she should examine her actions and “be the captain of her own ship?” How dare she take a walk in the middle of the day???

        As for my ownership in all this? I am happily married for 16 years. I have enjoyed wonderful friendships in my life with wonderful men. I have been blessed that all of the men I’ve been in relationships with in my past were great guys who treated me with love and respect. My relationship with men is and always has been very good. I don’t surround myself with assholes or misogynists or angry people. I am careful with who I spend time with and associate with.

        I’m not sure how walking through a parking lot at noon on a Wednesday is putting myself in a bad place? Or waitressing at the fine dining restaurant, or any of the other restaurants I worked at, is putting myself in a bad place? Or working with corporate clients from Fortune 500 companies is putting myself in a bad place? Or walking through the airport on a Sunday afternoon is putting myself in a bad place? All of these are just a smattering of instances in which I experience what I wrote about in this article. Maybe next time, read a little more closely, maybe next time try to shrug off the haze of anger you seem to be viewing things through.

        Or, I don’t know… maybe sit down and listen? You just might learn something.

        Cheers.

        Reply

        1. davidshelmerdine and Gretchen Kelly

           David, I agree with you. However, you cannot rationalize with irrational people. If you don’t agree with the women they say “you don’t get it”. They do not want to accept that ‘you get it’ but simply don’t agree with their conclusions because they are flawed. Like you, I too have been approached by women (including pinched in the front more than I care to admit). My wife even reported one woman for it. Women are becoming more and more sexually aggressive. The only answer I can give to my wife and to you (not that either of you or my wife needed advice) is to ignore women.

           I have even hired a female “expert” witness (CPA) once to testify in trial only to find when she got to the courtroom “[she] cannot testify because the assistant prosecutor (female) was a sorority sister”. And then she refused to refund the $2000. ‘Never hire a woman’ was the lesson other attorneys told me.

           Actually, I wish women would simply abort male children. I don’t really believe in abortion but I hate the idea of an innocent little boy being abused by women like Gretchen Kelly. Can you imagine a little boy telling Mommy Gretchen:

           “Mom, something happened to me at school today and I think we need to talk about it”.

           Only to have Gretchen respond: “Shut up. This isn’t about you, its about women! YOUR LIFE DOESN’T MATTER”.

           Reply

           1. I really, truly hope you aren’t actually a lawyer. If you are, I hope your female clients realize that you have a chip on your shoulder and leave. Gretchen isn’t minimizing the trouble that men encounter, she’s simply pointing out the fact that most women, at some point in their lives (and in many cases, frequently) have experienced/will experience unwelcome and/or threatening advances which we minimize and let go because it happens so often that it would be a huge undertaking and massively draining to respond to all advances. And we have the disadvantage; most men are bigger and stronger than most women. So they are more likely to pose a threat.
              I guess my point is that it’s NOT A COMPETITION. Get over it.

              Reply

              1. Anonymous above.
                 I am a lawyer. Call the Oklahoma Bar and the Federal Bar of the Western District of Oklahoma. Gina Hendryx (General Counsel of the OK Bar) is a friend of mine, but that is because as a woman she doesn’t whine, isn’t needy and is not neurotic.

                 You talk about what women have to face daily. Consider what a male faces daily. Richard Glossip sits on death row in McAlester OK. Yet Richard Glossip didn’t kill anyone. Mary Winkler killed her husband in Tennessee and receive two (2) months in jail. Susan Wright Taylor stabbed her husband over 200 times and received 12 years in jail. Cassie Anthony killed her daughter and then went partying. Betty Broderick killed her ex-husband and his gf because her ex dared to divorce from her and only received 20 years. A female dentist runs over her husband in Houston TX…no death penalty sought. An ex-wife shoots her professor husband in Arlington TX because he divorced her…no jail time …no death penalty sought. A woman in San Francisco kills six (6) newborns…receives five (5) years probation. NOT ONE OF THESE WOMEN FACED THE DEATH PENALTY. NOT ONE!

                 And you say women face danger on a daily basis? Try walking in Richard Glossip’s shoes. He didn’t kill anyone yet has been on death row for eighteen (18) years.

                 In the criminal justice system, men face a 200% greater chance of receiving the death penalty than women for the SAME CHARGE OF 1ST DEGREE MURDER! They are 100 times more likely to be raped in prison than a woman.

                 Anonymous, you are one of those whiny, needy, neurotic women. Grow up.

              2. PS. I don’t represent women like you (i.e. whiny, needy, neurotic). I do however represent my wife (when she tells me to). I represent men.

     2. Explain to me how a ‘woman’ is to ‘own it’ – when say, she is a 12 year old girl molested by her father or a 6 year old girl raped by her uncle, or a business woman at a business conference with record breaking company results getting an award and the president of the company hugs her and grabs a feel at the same time. Each of those people are supposed to “own it”, the way a guy like you does that goes into the wrong part of town? You are missing the entire point. How do the little girls I described, and which Gretchen is pointing out happens every single day, suppose to take ownership for who they hang around with. How does one avoid their father at 12? or their uncle at 6, as you say – ‘ you don’t put yourself in a bad place.’ – just own it….or a business woman just doing her job – earning a respectable living – and doing it well – still has a man ‘in a position of authority’ take advantage. She is supposed to own his inability to control himself? why because we have a vagina and men don’t know how to control themselves? Perhaps it is the men that need to own it – own that they are out of line. Perhaps you should face the fact – davidshelmerdine – you are part of the problem and EXACTLY who Gretchen is calling out. Listen. And maybe don’t be such a jerk. Your entire post is filled with ignorance. Why? Because you don’t get it. You have never lived having men taking the most vulnerable part of your being at a time when you are too young to even realize things like this exist in the world – and that is the reason that most women – if they are honest – ask themselves those exact questions that Gretchen described in her post – whenever they are anywhere. A bookstore, the country club, the office, in her yard – everywhere. When a man approaches, we ask ourselves those questions.

        Reply

     3. Dear David,

        I’m in the same line as Gretchen. Just mentioning what we have to live everyday doesn’t make us everyday/ universal victims.
        As a matter of fact I know a lot of women who aren’t even aware that it is not normal to be sexually harassed in the metro, it’s juts normal…So here is the problem and when the problem is tackled we get reactions like ours.

        Why ?

        Because society despises victims. We don’t like them.
        It’s bad to be weak, to be in that position even for occasional situations.

        I don’t consider myself as a victim, but occasional victim of harassment yes !
        And it started at a young age, around 12, when I started getting sleazy attention from older guys, (older meant over 20 at that age for me til 70 maybe )
        So how could I possibly “own it ” at that age ???
        How could my 15 year-old sister own it when she visited me in Paris and we got sexual unwanted attention every 10 minutes because she was blondine.
        How can I own it when I get threatened by a guy as big as a wardrobe just because I ignore him or answer to him (that I stopped , too dangerous to do in Paris…)

        If you are so clever, then please give us a solution.
        But you can’t, because you’re a geezer and you don’t know. You just don’t get it.

        Watch the film “Deliverance”, come back and tell us what you feel when you see a man get raped.
        And then do the maths…how many films there are where men get raped…how many films where women get ?

        Just answer these 2 questions…
        I’m curious.

        Reply

     4. It’s time for you to: Listen.

        Reply

        1. As a mother of sons and a grandmother I resent it that all men are stereotyped and demonised. Some women will relate to this post, but it doesn’t speak for everyone, certainly nott me or the women I know.

           Reply

           1. At no point in time did the article say that all men are guilty of certain behaviors, only that all women have experienced those behaviors. And women are certainly responsible for their contribution to those behaviors, such as you and your own willful ignorance. Some of us want to raise confident upstanding young men that aren’t plagued with feelings of entitlement for their sake as much as anyone else’s. That won’t happen by ignoring certain societal problems and hoping they will magically go away on their own.

              Reply

              1. Susan, What a coincidence. I’ve raised confident, upstanding men. They are loving husbands and fathers and sons. How you raise your children is your business. Mine aren’t plagued by feelings of entitlement unless it’s the expectation that they are equally entitled to the sort of respect they show to their partners and colleagues.

                 Whatever you’re aiming for, it’s never going to be a perfect world. We should all work towards improving it. Saying that not all men behave badly but ‘all women experience such behaviours’ doesn’t help and is surely mathematically improbable.

                 Pretending that it’s only the one gender that’s behaving badly isn’t helpful either. In Canada a woman who wasn’t allowed to take her sons out of the country and away from their father, drowned them in their bath. If she couldn’t have them, neither could their father.

                 A French court jailed a woman for nine years for killing eight of her newborn babies. She tried getting out of it by lying about having had an incestuous relationship with her father. Prosecutors asked for eighteen years but her lawyers wanted the jury to consider ‘the “distress” of a fragile woman plagued by neuroses.’ That’s entitlement if you like. Let me repeat, it’s not a perfect world. Pretending that it’s only one gender that’s contributing to it isn’t helpful.

              2. “Confident, upstanding men” display these behaviors as well, at least at times. I’m sure they’re smart enough not to do it in front of their MOTHERS, marymtf, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not happening. Granted, it also doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re personally committing such behaviors, but don’t be that naive. If your son gave into the urge to make a sexist comment, reach out and pinch a woman at the office, etc., it’s not as though he’s going to run home and tell mommy about it.

              3. Excuse me if I’m wrong, Katie, but you sound as if you aren’t as far from your teens as I am. My memories are faded, but I do remember that teenagers, girls and boys, sometimes get up to things they’d rather their parents didn’t find out about. Perhaps your response is based on your own personal experiences. Most teens will grow out of it. Those that don’t, haven’t been raised properly or have had bad role models. I have always believed that parenting shouldn’t be a right but a privilege.

                 I think that once children are adults and have children of their own, their parents will have seen them in almost every family or social situation possible. It’s impossible to hide the sort of nature you accuse all.men of from their mothers or anyone else for very long. Flaws and all, men and women belong to the one species. Accusing all men of bad behaviour is as ridiculous and wrong as implying that all women are perfect.

                 I doubt that anything I’ve said will convince you, but it’s your blog so I very much appreciate the chance you’ve given me to debate the issue.

              4. Like how you worded it as a urge. Control-able or not and to what extent?

              5. marymtf Katie Keesecker

                 Mary, you are a wonderful person and a good mother!

     5. I’m sorry, did you say we need to own it?

        Did you read the article? It is about rape culture. If a woman is harassed in a good part of town – it’s not her fault. If a woman is harassed in a bad part of town – it’s also not her fault. The definition of rape culture is placing blame on a victim for somehow playing a part in the sexual harassment they have endured.

        It’s time for you – general you – men like you – to listen.

        You know when I had my first taste of this? I remember walking to the corner store at 8 and having men whistle at me. 8 fucking years old.

        At 8 I also had a man try and attack me in a bathroom stall at my elementary school.

        At 9, a man fondled my leg on a bus.

        At 13 a man masterbated in front of me on a bus.

        I had to work at 14 and in order to keep my job I had to deal with constant sexual harassment from my employer. Around the same time one of my employers friends offered me money to attend a party for his friends. I got in trouble when I spoke back and told him “I am not for sale.” Again. 14.

        At 15, I was raped. To this day, I’ve never told anyone until now. For the longest time, I thought it was my fault.

        At 16 a man pulled up next to me when I was walking to work and offered me a ride. He was masterbating. The police didn’t believe me. They chose to believe his story that his penis fell out of his pants.

        For years I put up with leering, jeering, comments from strangers, employers, teachers, coworkers….and society makes you feel like somehow it’s your fault. Society also certainly makes you feel like it’s your responsibility to diffuse the situation.

        Walk a mile in our shoes before you make comments that support a mans right to treat us as if we are property.

        BTW, despite all of the above, I don’t feel like a victim. I’ll never let any man make me feel like a victim. I want to change the environment that my kids grow up in. Enough is enough.

        Reply

     6. Well, maybe you think we women should invest in burqas or teleportation devices so that we never have to venture out, as ourselves, into the world of men (which they have dominion over and rightly so)… Because behind those words of yours lies the hidden assertion that men are in control of all shared space. If a man is in the room, on the street, in the workplace, in the elevator, the parking lot – it is our duty to either be completely invisible, or receptive – or shut the fuck up and take full responsibility for his behavior. I think instead, that you should grow up, little boy – and lose the profound sense of entitlement that has been instilled in you. I would like instead (of women hiding, deferring, cowering, writing essays to try to appeal to your reason) for it to be assumed that every woman will call out threatening behavior openly directly and without fear, and that every woman is carrying a gun, and that we will, logically, defend our persons against violence with lethal force if pushed to the extreme.

        Reply

     7. By extension of your logic, we can’t leave the house because any part of town becomes the wrong part of town when you’re female. When I was 10, I had some random 12 year old boy come behind me and school and grab me inappropriately. Mind telling me how I was in the wrong place at the wrong time in my own school in my own town?

        Reply

505. Thank you for this well written and heartfelt article.

     I am a woman raised in a sheltered enviornment for most of my life, from a boy-ish figure to heartfelt parents who listened to and encouraged me. But even I have lived through the fear and pain of modern sexism.

     My coping came in the power of a tom-boy exterior. I acted like a boy, talked like a boy, I even emulated WALKING like a boy to let other boys know I wasn’t to be messed with. I went out of my way to get into guys faces during recess or gym class if they dissed my friends or didn’t let me play an organized sport because I was “a girl.” I had to literally flatten those boys in soccer, steal the ball from my own teammates in football, and yank the lacrosse stick of a man who played “keep-away” during a game to laugh at my short frame. I bluffed and yelled, creating a reputation that demanded respect from every man. When I started recieving that respect (from the majority of my classmates) I told myself those men had learned, had understood I was another human, not a “girl” who was soft and yielding. But, looking back, I’m not so sure. They treated me like another guy, but that didn’t change their actions to my friends or other girls. What happened?

     I am now dealing with the duality of my anger-response in my marital relationship. At times when I feel insecure I lash out with the same tom-boy mask from high school when, instead, I should talk calmly and explain. My husband is a wonderful man, but even he does not realize why I refuse to watch/play/allow certain material in the house due to its portrayel of women. To him it’s just entertainment, fake, it does no harm. With this article maybe he can catch a glimpse of the world women live in.

     Thank you.

     Reply

     1. even the best of men don’t understand because they didn’t grow up in our skin. they want to understand though. and the next generation, my sons, understand more than i could ever imagine.

        Reply

506. I like the article and would not deny a single line of it
     Yet I have two point I always struggle upon when reading such article
     – why is sexism always applied from men to women .?
     The exact opposite of this article will never be nor published nor considered yet it is my believe it is as much destructive as the damaging effects describe in this article.

     One last point which I ultimately do not get.
     Yes women are being discriminated against yet still today who is mainly providing the education to the children.

     Nations of macho man are raised by women complaining precisely about this.
     How can this be explained ????
     I you do have an explanation please let me know.

     Reply

     1. the children are raised this culture. the women are raised in this culture.

        Reply

        1. The children are raised in this culture :

           Ok ….in the last century I would tend to agree.
           However today more and more women share the same view as you do.
           These women are mother themselves how one then could explain the society is not moving faster the direction of a better awareness ?

           How can boys raised by women sharing the same vision or the same line of thinking you present in your article, can become the men you portrayed in the article. ?

           Reply

           1. I can’t speak for the other women, but my boys are still small children. give them time (assuming their peers whose parents may or may not share the views of my husband and myself don’t undermine our efforts to raise them with self confidence.)

              Also, this isn’t a male vs. female issue. There’s many men who share the same feelings. Conversely, there’s still a lot of women on the other side of the issue. I know my peers never took kindly to me rocking the boat.

              Additionally, I was raised by both my parents. My sons are being raised by my husband and I, not just me. Just the assumption that only women raise children is problematic and indicative of social norms that hold society back. Even in single parent households, some of which consist of a father rather than a mother, the absent parent still factors into the child’s development, to say nothing of other families who may or may not pick up the slack.

              Families are pretty diverse, especially in this day and age, and my point isn’t to elevate one kind of family over another, just illustrating the oversimplification of the argument that mothers are the ones raising these men.

              That said, society has gotten better but there’s always room for improvement. However, many people think that we’re done growing or that things are fine so long as we aren’t like a third world country with sanctioned rape and the stoning of victims. Greatness isn’t born of complacency.

              Reply

     2. It’s the same reason racism is always applied to white people.

        Are men disadvantaged by sexism? They are not. They enjoy significant advantages in every society on this planet relative to women. Until we are closer to equality sexism won’t apply the other way.

        Reply

507. I am truly blessed or live on another planet. I have never run into much if anything in sexual fear, although when i worked 3-11 (evening shift) in hospitals i walked out in a group or with security gurad, to well lit parking area. just common sense for anyone, not necessarily sexual.

     Reply

     1. not sexual, but very much gender related

        Reply

508. At 51 years old, this piece brought me to tears as I read it aloud to my husband and sons on Thanksgiving Day. It also stirred in me a growing fire of understanding. Of the seed of gender discrimination. It woke me up a week later at 5 am to write this:

     https://kellyandlila.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/being-female/

     Reply

     1. and then this, wondering if i should cool the fire in my head or let it burn…
        https://kellyandlila.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/uttasana/

        Reply

        1. like a genie out of a bottle, they keep on coming…
           https://kellyandlila.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/fire-in-the-head/

           Reply

509. So true, not to speak about less pay

     Reply

510. It always seemed simple to me how I should interact with women. Just treat them like people. I have no explanation for why men can behave so terribly. Maybe it’s because I was raised in a family with a strong maternal figure that I seem to have more respect for women. I can see where men go astray trying to hit on women. Usually I just try to make an innocuous compliment. Something they can choose to continue the dialog about if they wish or that might just make them feel good about themselves. Now that I think about it, that’s the same way I make new friends. Remove sexuality from the situation and the whole process becomes very unmuddled. I say we should look for friends first and embrace what may come.

     Reply

     1. Aaron
        Your comment: “Usually I just try to make an innocuous compliment.”
        I though your comment above very insightful. But from reading other female comments, I am concluding females in general don’t want men to even ‘make an innocuous compliment’. Is that what the females herein are trying to say?

        Like you, I personally have never whistled at a woman. Further, (and perhaps, not like you) I don’t speak to women on the street unless I know them (and then only when they speak to me first), and I never compliment a woman (with the exception of my wife, mother and sister, who are all wonderful women).

        I opened a door once to the law school for a person coming in when I was coming in to the building at that same time. She had her hands full and I would have opened the door for anyone who needed help if their hands were full regardless of their gender. She ‘chewed me out’ for opening the door.

        Just saying, I liked your comment so I thought I would ask: Are they trying to say they simply don’t want to talk to men or see men or hear any of the men’s opinions? Your thoughts are invited, Aaron. Thanks.

        Reply

511. Fitness columnist James Fell said it very well in a recent Facebook post:

     “Guys, if you can’t fathom why women hate being catcalled just think about those obnoxious salesmen at mall kiosks. You know how awkward and annoyed you feel trying to get past them as they desperately push their shitty product on you? Imagine if that happened EVERYWHERE, and if – instead of shoe cleaner – their product was DICK. That’s a woman’s reality: a never-ending, thinly veiled penis infomercial.”

     Reply

     1. Oh wow ! That’s well figured !
        Thanks !

        Reply

     2. That’s hilarious (The mall kiosk salesman selling dick) – but not really accurate to me. Catcallers and aggressive grabbers, pinchers, stalkers etc. are not selling dick as a service to you. They take it beyond that. What they are communicating is the desire to lock you into a short-term non-negotiable contract (with subtle or overt threats of force and dominance) whereby you will passively allow them to use your body to satisfy themselves by degrading your humanity to that of a pay-toilet.

        Reply

        1. Yes, exactly! They are more like aggressive bad debt collectors who call and text incessantly, who threaten you and maybe even stalk you, who purposefully make your life a living hell, even though they know full well that you aren’t the person who racked up the bad debt in the first place, because they know they can get away with it and they hope they can harass you into paying money you have no reason to pay. That bad debt? It’s called patriarchy. And it can fuck right off.

           Reply

           1. Changing one group, trying to change the way men go about stuff has got to be near impossible. Males thought process and primitive instincts are just that, males instinctively behave in a manor because it’s hard wiered deep in there brains, this can not be changed and there brains just aren’t complexed enough to be altered. The majority of males are brought up by there parents, it’s up to there parents to teach them the way of the world with mum being the first and most important female to teach what is and isn’t acceptable, possibly the start of male female etiquette should be pointed out to mothers. How can females change to fit in without feeling intimidated? Don’t know, self defense classes? If females weren’t fair full of violence could they then stand up for them selfs? Stronger willed/more argessive females and everything should just fall into place.

              Reply

              1. And yet our culture is constantly changing!

              2. Not due men initiating anything. It’s up to the superior complex minds to work out how to be in control of any and all situations which affect them.

              3. Did you just say that men don’t have complex minds? Do you really think so little of yourself? “Whether you believe you can, or believe you can’t, it is the truth.”

              4. Women have more complex minds, according to studies. With some exemptions of course (google it). I’m not ashamed to admit to the fact that is a proven fact, it just is what it is nothing more and nothing less. Also proven is the primal instincts in males which I forgot to add is apparently more prominent in those with a lower IQ and nearly non existent in the higher range. For those who don’t have high IQ (not there fault) instinct rules judgment, which can not be changed easily and obviously some chose not to change. The problem (in this case men) cause the issue (inequality etc) that effects the oppressed (female) now there’s one of multiple solutions 1. In my mind is to teach the oppressed how to claim dominants in the issue (self defense) 2. Again in my mind The way young males are educated on the matteres of female/male etiquette with the most important female in any males life (mum) teaching (yes some exemptions). A bit of backround, Over here males are terrified with the implications of physically harming a female normally the IRA delivers a instant death sentence in the form of a hit man, although this is effective I wouldn’t wish living in this society. Now I don’t intend this information to be offensive, look it over and if you wish take some of it on board as a complimentary supplement in addition to this article (which I’m 100% with).

                 By the way, cheers for not trying to bully me about my gramer skills 🙂 like some others.

              5. How can anyone take you seriously when you have such poor grammar?

                 Speak for yourself about what is ‘hardwired’ into your brain, but don’t make assumptions about others.

              6. On a mobile phone. And proven.

                 oh yeah, semantics!

              7. when you use “there” instead of “their” EVERY time, that’s not the phone’s fault.. “manor” instead of “manner” is the same…

                 “The majority of males are brought up by there (their) parents”
                 Yeah… your point? Majority of all kids are brought up by their parents

              8. Lol bob the mechanic…I may disagree with you on some points, but on this one I agree. I believe William may have been trying to blame the mothers here. Which is just blaming women again. I also suspect that English is not william’s first language, and…well, I’ll keep the rest of my suspicions to myself. I sincerely hope that English is this…person’s second language (or 3rd or whatever), because otherwise this person’s posts are just a glaring example of the inadequecies of whatever English speaking school system in which he/she was er…..”educated”.

              9. ye sounding like oppressing someone? And Blaming Woman? Yeah well righto then, if you want to take everything ya read and then put the worst possible, most negative spin on it, that your right. You can’t claim to be open minded enought to think of the world in clear view.

              10. Ok, this is out of pure curiosity, William, but I have to ask…what’s your first language? I ask this because I am hoping that there is just a misinterpretation here….

              11. Gaelic and English. We learn both here in Ireland.

              12. And in Canada we learn both French and English. It doesn’t effect my grammar. Nor does my smart phone and it’s autocorrect. Your “logic” and “arguments” are as poor as your grammar.

              13. Dang you were so close… Its….
                  stupid autocorrect your smart phone?

              14. Why yes. Guess it happens to the best of us.

              15. Nope, no miss understandings. Your playing semantics on Grammer in order to try and belittle someone. Superiority complex Much! A well Privileged person picking on someone who obviously wasn’t privileged enough to get a good education. Your uncanny ability to cherry pick words, jumble them up and extract the worse possible outcome in order to come up with a world view, will forever cloud your opinions and inject negatively to all you talk to. Do find yourself help for the sack of everyone who has the misfortune to cross paths with you. Oh and these “””” only go one way :P, no provisions for one thats upside down on a true English keyboard.

              16. Question If your not clever enough to work out what this person is saying you should be picking on his grammer something like those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones we will now see how badly you pick on me for not using gramner we will also see just how petty you are if you choose to reply 😛

              17. Original point was, there’s lots of different reasons why these issues in is article exist, the article covered some with handy suggestion on how to ease things. And I was pointing out my thoughts with explanation that Mum can assist son, and that there’s multiple ways of dealing with the lacking confidence of females this article was referring to one may be self defense classes (if harm is a issue). If you can’t change one issue (in this case men) change the one (females) in a way that they can be victorious. I do believe males don’t have to mental capacity to change enough. My self, well im for lack of a better description A sexual, I literally have no need or desire to “court” any gender

              18. That’s just bull and an insult to every man that rises above his baser animal instincts. The way I see it, we have two choices. Either behave in a way that justifies our belief in our superiority to other animals or drop all pretense of being anything but, up to and including social order and all the modern conveniences it affords.

              19. Thank you… I think William needs to speak only for himself when it comes to is irresistible urges and instincts, and the inability to control any of them.

                  I am going out on a limb and assuming William is a male.. whether I’m right or wrong about that, it’s a very sexist comment

              20. Women have more complex minds, according to studies. With some exemptions of course (google it). I’m not ashamed to admit to the fact that is a proven fact, it just is what it is nothing more and nothing less. Also proven is the primal instincts in males which I forgot to add is apparently more prominent in those with a lower IQ and nearly non existent in the higher range. For those who don’t have high IQ (not there fault) instinct rules judgment, which can not be changed easily and obviously some chose not to change. The problem (in this case men) cause the issue (inequality etc) that effects the oppressed (female) now there’s one of multiple solutions 1. In my mind is to teach the oppressed how to claim dominants in the issue (self defense) 2. Again in my mind The way young males are educated on the matteres of female/male etiquette with the most important female in any males lives being at the teacher. Just remember Susan, the way you see things, the way I see things and the way everyone else sees thing may or may not be the correct. BTW I’m 100% with this article

512. Hello hello again !!

     I know this is an English speaking blog but I have just stumbled over this article in the well-known French online newspaper “Le Monde” about harassment at University.
     Title says:
     “Sexual harassment at University is not a marginal (exceptional) phenomenon”

     http://www.lemonde.fr/vie-etudiante/article/2015/12/03/le-harcelement-sexuel-a-l-universite-n-est-pas-un-phenomene-marginal_4823821_4468406.html

     It is highlighted that most victims feel guilty of being harassed…

     I will repeat it again and again. Why ?
     Because our society doesn’t like victims. It’s bad to be a victim. It means you are weak, you can’t defend yourself…therefore (because we have archaic reactions) the victim is useless for society…

     I’m sorry to post this in French…but it’s just to show that this issue is international !
     ;o)

     Reply

     1. Just a little translation for the guys who don’t believe us (again !) :
        “Les harceleurs sont presque toujours des hommes, qu’ils soient enseignants, personnels administratifs ou étudiants.”
        = ” Harassers are almost always men, whether they are teachers, administrations or students.”

        Reply

513. Its not my first time to pay a visit this web site, i am browsing this
     web page dailly and get pleasant facts from here every day.

     Reply

514. Gretchen, your narration of unwanted experiences, and their immediate and cumulative effect, was superb. Yeah, I’ve received unwanted, sexually charged comments from colleagues and superiors. These were isolated events, and probably atypical for a male yet commonplace for all too many women. And therein lies the fundamental difference: Rare experience versus bombardment.

     I also admire your courage for posting this. Some comments are encouraging, of men being honest yet open and receptive. Others are predictable. The cultivation of empathy, of being able to put oneself in the shoes (or heels) of another, could help. Unfortunately, this seems beyond reach for many. Anyway, thanks for the really nice job on this.
     –Mark

     Reply

515. Yes. All of this. And all the stuff we don’t even consciously acknowledge because it is as normal as the air we breathe.

     Reply

516. I’m amazed you think that these are things *women* do instead of things people do. Yes, women are overwhelmingly the majority of victims of sexual assault. But feeling unsafe? Being nervous when people make comments? You must be joking.

     Men are twice as likely to be attacked with a weapon, 3 times as likely to be victims of aggravated assault, and 3 times more likely to be victims of homicide than women. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/2010024/part-partie1-eng.htm#h2_6
     Not only that, our culture actively encourages us to get into the kind of situation where we get killed. You complain that you constantly have to “de-escalate”? We’re not even given the option. If we back down we’re pussies. Hell, if we complain that it happened we’re pussies.

     Reply

     1. So what are you doing to oppose male violence, Apathyboy? How are you working to ensure that the violent men who require you to respond to them with violence, do not have the freedom to inflict their modus vivendi onto everyone else in society?

        Reply

        1. The same thing the author is doing in this post, whinging on the internet. And predictably, I get an aggressive response putting the onus on me to change things. Where was that kind of response to the original article? Sorry, but your hypocrisy is showing. Might want to cover that up.

           Reply

           1. Apathy boy, you’re not doing the same thing the author did by writing this article. You’re being a troll. If you want to do the same thing, write your own article on the perils of being a man. I’m sure it will be eye opening.

              Reply

              1. And when I imply that women don’t have any problems with violence by saying “they don’t know about it” and someone calls me out on it will they be a troll too?

              2. No matter how afraid you are when you walk the street at night, it’s still male violence that you are afraid of, caused by a culture that positions men as violent animals and women as passive victims. No matter what you do, you still benefit from that positioning of power in a significant way, even while you fear for your safety at the hands of other men. You may experience violent men, but you also experience significantly less risk of sexual assault, rape, domestic abuse, sexual harassment, and gendered bias in the workplace or at school.

                 So yeah, the onus is on you to start talking to other men, especially boys and young men, about what masculinity means and how to change it.

              3. Bex vanKoot Your comment: “…gendered bias in the workplace or at school.”

                 No one is in favor of sexual assault, rape, domestic abuse,…” No one.
                 But what about a company that only hires MEN? Is that “gendered bias in the workplace…”? My first impression was ‘Hell Yes’. But did you know that a female justice (Ginsburg) on the U.S. Supreme Court wrote the majority opinion in United States v Virginia, 518 U.S. 515 (1996) upholding “separate but equal”. In other words, corporations that do not seek any federal or state funding can hire only men. Schools that don’t seek any federal or state funding can admit only men.

                 My point: While no one supports sexual assault or violence of any form against women, you have women justices on the Supreme Court declaring discriminating against gender is perfectly legal. Remember when Sonya Sotomayor (then Chief Judge of the 2nd Circuit) claimed that “women make better judges than men” (a very sexist remark that is totally false) yet she was confirmed to the United States Supreme Court?

                 If you don’t like our current situation of ‘gender bias in the workplace or at school’, then work to change the law. It was female judges and not males that said we could discriminate in not hiring women at work or not admitting women in college as long as the corporation or school doesn’t seek any state or federal funding.

                 Kinda makes us re-think ‘ole Sonya’s statement ‘women make better judges’ doesn’t it?

              4. How on earth can you say “No one is in favor of sexual assault, rape, domestic abuse,…” No one.”

                 At least 1 in 4 women are raped. More than 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted. Nearly all the women I know have experienced some kind of assault. Clearly SOMEONE IS IN FAVOR OF IT. Or it wouldn’t happen.

              5. Bex vanKoot

                 Correction: No rational human being.

                 I once had a client accused of sexual assaulting his daughter. He and his daughter were given lie detector tests (not that they are admissible BEFORE A JURY) but this was a trial to a judge. The man passed. The daughter did not pass.

                 From that experience as the trial lawyer, was she sexual assaulted?

                 My sister, who I love dearly, once claimed that she was raped at 16. I offered to take her to the hospital for a rape kit. She refused. Twenty years later when she had a son she told my entire family that she had not been raped and that she had said that to get the attention of a particular boy that lived on our street.

                 What are we to believe in your statement that 1 in 4 and 1 in 3? Too many times women lie. That is exactly why lawyers go over articles like this. We have a room of lawyers. We study what you type in comments. The reason: Because the majority of juries in this country (US) are made up of 7 or more female jurors. And women have a very very low opinion of men. Therefore by gathering information from blogs provided (knowingly or unknowingly) by Gretchen Kelly regarding the collective females’ views and poor opinion of men, we are successful in challenging for cause the sitting of women on a jury where a man is facing the death penalty for killing another man.

                 Already, some three hundred (300) MEN have been exonerated. You know why they were convicted in the first place? Because women believe like one female 60 year old comment in one of Ms Kelly’s blogs, as follows:

                 “Every time she saw a man walking alone in the park, she taught to herself, ‘he is here to murder someone’.” (Thank you Ms Kelly and the internet).

                 Oh and by the way, the judge in our case above dismissed the sexual assault charges against the father based on the lie detector tests of both the father and daughter because the tests were administered by the STATE. And before you say it, yes, lie detector tests are admissible before a judge if the judge agrees to accept the reliability of the lie detector test (ie. it all depends on who is the administering agency for the lie detector test).

                 But Bex vanKoot thank you for your poor opinion of men. It just might save an innocent man from spending the rest of his life in prison.

              6. So you’re saying that your “advice” to women in this thread to “abort all male children” is…..research? You don’t think that make jurors are less biased? You are doing what many people in this thread are accusing the blogger of doing: painting an entire gender with the same brush. I’m not whiney or cowed and I don’t blame men for all of my problems. You, however, by your own admission discriminate freely against women. You exclusively represent men. And I bet they’re all amazing people who are falsely accused. And all women are whiney conniving bitches (except the ones you approve of personally) by default. It’s so sad that you passed the bar. Really. So very sad.

              7. Anonymous

                 Your comment: “You don’t think that make [male] jurors are less biased?” (insert added). From reading comments on multiple blogs concerning gender issues, my opinion is that men are not as bias towards other men. Since I don’t represent women, I don’t study the aspect of whether men are as bias against women as women are against men. So, in all fairness, I don’t know if men are biased against women. I will take your word on that one.

                 Maybe you are right though. Maybe I am “painting an entire gender with the same brush.” I don’t want to. I don’t like dumping all women into the same group of “men haters” but the cost of being wrong is too great for my male clients when facing the death penalty. And, this is especially true because I only represent men accused of killing another male. But I do love women. I love the way my wife’s hair smells, even when she hasn’t taken a bath today. I love the softness of her skin. I love her opinions on things and the way she sees things differently than a man. I love everything about her.

                 I would certainly like to think that all women of the age to be on a jury don’t automatically hate men. My wife certainly doesn’t hate men. In fact, she loves men too much for my liking, but I guess that is one reason I love her. She is harder on the females in our family and yet lets the boys slide on the same infractions. I, on the other hand, would do anything for the females in our family but not for the males until they earn it themselves.

                 In addition, your comment: “You, however, by your own admission discriminate freely against women. You exclusively represent men.” Seriously?!?!? If you don’t like it, change the law. Overturn United States v Virginia and progeny which held you can discriminate based on gender but not race, as long as you are not seeking state or federal financial assistance, which I don’t need. Plus, it would be a conflict of interest for me to represent women because I believe women often times are too subjective.

                 And finally, your comment: “And I bet they’re all amazing people who are falsely accused”. Richard Glossip is falsely accused and yes, I believe that he is an amazing man to have survived eighteen (18) years on death row! You couldn’t do it. I know I couldn’t do it.

              8. Wow, you have a very exclusive client base. Men accused of killing other men….if men are as blameless as you seem to think, you must either charge an arm and a leg for your services or you are a starving lawyer. Your personal views on women are skewed. I don’t want to change US law. I don’t live in the US anymore. I also believe that it is your constitutional right to represent only men. That doesn’t mean that you’re not discriminatory towards women. It just means that you are legally able to discriminate against women in your private law practice. You’re still sexist in the extreme.

              9. Also: dude, that’s one (1) example. I’m sure there are more, but don’t beat a dead horse.

           2. Again, the root cause of your issue and the author’s issue are the same but rather than use your issues to undermine hers, advocate for them. It’s like people who take exception to a fundraiser for one type of cancer when they feel another is more important. What’s more effective?

              Undermining someone else’s cause or actively advocating for your own?

              There’s room for both discussions. They aren’t in competition with each other. As with cancer research, they may even overlap and support each other.

              Reply

     2. I actually agree with you, although statistics are difficult to prove because so much of what we all experience goes unreported, undocumented (both men and women feel humiliated by violence directed toward us). I will admit that domestic violence against men by women could very well surpass male on female domestic violence. I certainly don’t want to negate that in any way. But that can’t be used as an argument against what women are saying here. One thing at a time. All I can speak of is my own experience – of frequent harassment, to varying degrees. I’m a pretty open friendly person by nature. I’m polite – If people speak to me in a kind way I try to give them some conversation or attention, and that is often. But I have come to take for granted that when I go out in public, about 50% of the time I will either be followed through a store, hollered at from a passing car, or followed through a parking lot, perhaps menacingly. I have been sexually assaulted more than once. This has been happening since childhood: unwelcome touching, sexual coercion (not accepting no for an answer), stalking, slandering, lashing out at rejections of intimacy – all sitting on top of the proliferation of messages of being nearly worthless as a human being in relation to males.
        I have empathy for men who also find themselves fearful of assault. None of us should have to live that way. But the sexual courtship component, the social power differential, the behavioral expectations – takes it to a whole different psychological level that you probably wouldn’t understand unless you were a woman, or similarly groomed to be passive, compliant or less-than.

        Reply

        1. Voltairine Aspasia

           I liked your comment and thought it very insightful.

           May I respectfully ask without offending you or anyone else, is it an insult to you then if men simply do not talk to you when passing? Do not look at you in a store? When passing on the sidewalk, for a man to look the other way, as if you weren’t even there? I adopted this approach.

           I speak to women only when spoken to because of the way women take things. A man never really knows how a woman will take anything he says and turn it into sexual harassment, etc… I remember when I was single in college getting viciously screamed at and hit in the face by a woman because I refused to have sex but she had just disclosed to me that she had herpes. Later she told a friend that my refusal was some sort of sexual harassment since she had gone the extra step of informing me before the act rather than after.

           That is not however the way I am. I say hello to other men on the street.

           Reply

           1. Your personal anecdotes don’t negate the fact that men are predators, takers, users and that it is systematically instilled in all of us to fear them. Our culture and entire financial system values strength, power, force. Maybe you don’t consider yourself one of these kinds of men, but look across media, politics, churches, corporations and even our language, it reflects this reality. “Boys will be boys” is the point of departure; it gives men a free ticket to remain in a primitive state, unable to control their “urges”, not needing to be self-aware of their “man spread” (figuratively and literally).
              And your list of cases where women didn’t get the death penalty? I wouldn’t be surprised that in most of the cases you site, there was a long history of abuse and trauma. Women are taught at very young ages to just deal with it; to not be sassy; to respect; to be quiet; to give; to be benevolent; to wait and be patient. These women stay in bad relationships. Sometimes they break.
              And these cases are the exception. Men are the overwhelming majority of violent offenders. Did you know that the number one cause of death among pregnant women is murder by their partner? A pretty sick statistic in light of your “these women didn’t get the death penalty” whinging.
              As for who makes a good Justice or not? You just proved that Sotomayor was correct. Ginsberg interpreted the case on employment practices and gender based on the CONSTITUTION, not her gender, self interest, or the political milieu of the day (Bush v Gore, for example). See, women actually vote, think, decide, assess, and analyze without regard to their anatomy.
              PS And it was two women who fought to prove Richard’s innocence…

              Reply

              1. I think a revision should be made…
                 “Some men make you scared of all men”… and once again, you’re saying “all men” can’t control their primitive urges…

                 I can agree on the rest though

              2. MAC

                 You are full of shit if you think it was two (2) women lawyers (Susan Sarandan and Sister Helen Prajean are not lawyers) who fought for Richard’s innocence.
                 Don Knight is a male lawyer. Mark Hendricksen is a male lawyer. I am a male lawyer. The only female lawyer is Kathleen Lord and she sat on his ass the entire time never filing one (1) pleading.

                 As far as U.S. v Virginia, you simply can’t read.

              3. MAC

                 And regarding your excusing women for killing…what about Cassie Anthony? What about the woman in Seattle that killed 6 newborn children. I guess they deserve it? They asked for it?

                 You are only feeding fuel to getting more and more women challenged for cause in sitting on a jury where a man is on trial for killing another man. Thank you for that.

              4. It’s evident that you are not a very good lawyer. But then again, I respect lawyers about the same amount as I respect the criminals they represent.

              5. MAC67

                 And its obvious you don’t know how to read court cases and interpret them, do you?

                 That is fine that you don’t respect lawyers. I neither want nor need your respect to be happy with what I do for a living.

                 But one day, someone you love, maybe even yourself, will be charged with a heinous crime that you/they didn’t commit. Then you will pray to God that you have a lawyer that will fight for you and take your case to trial instead of doing like so many public defenders which is to plead their client out. “Bleed ’em and Plead ’em Lawyers”, is what they are called. I don’t do pleas.

517. Wow – I don’t know where you live, but you should move! I showed this to a number of my women friends and they were pretty clear that the reality you describe was/is not their reality. Some recalled wearing pushup bras to try and draw the attention of guys (yes it worked), but no rape, no walking with keys ready to stab, no come on’s by dad’s friends. They actually laughed about how they made men tiptoe around them. Withholding sex to make a point, their husband’s/boyfriend’s mortification at pissing them off and ways they exercise their power.
     Guys get looked up and down like meat by women, comments get made and asses get grabbed in nightclubs. I’m sure it’s more prevalent for women though and that’s not ok. In the words of my wife “Dress like a whore and you’re going to be treated like one.” You can thank base men and the prostitutes for that.
     There will always be jerks, male and female, but this article seems like a rant by an abused feminazi and saying in your title that ALL women do this is ludicrous. This is undoubtedly some women’s reality, and that sucks, it shouldn’t be that way, but it is not the across the boards situation for all women that you are trying too portray it as.

     Reply

518. Yeah, like all women are saints. I have dealt with the manipulation, and lies to get me to do what they want.

     Women dressed inappropriately, where I have to stare away from them while talking to them. I don’t run around with my sexuality “hanging out”, so I don’t see why women do so.

     Especially the women servers at restaurant, bending over repeatedly showing me their breasts, even though I’m trying to let them know I won’t look there by staring away, and they still do it when they come back to the table, and unbelievably, do it even with my wife right there!

     I’m sure the very same women, who complain that men are harassing them.

     Reply

     1. Here’s a thought, Edge. DON’T go to the restaurant where servers make you feel uncomfortable. Cross the street if you see a women “dressed inappropriately”. Take a class on how to defend yourself against all those lies and methods of manipulation women use against you. You are pathetic. How did you ever get married???????

        Reply

        1. Funny, what do you think I said to my wife. I said to her about the last place that I ate where they don’t dress appropriately, “I’m not going back there anymore”. Happy?

           Take a class? I don’t tolerate those lies and manipulation. What makes you think that I do? Just because I observe it, does not mean I tolerate it.

           And about “crossing the street”. So I should do that, when I have to deal with a woman in my business dealings? Get real. It’s not always easy to avoid these women.

           I find your response interesting. So you have that advice to the blogger here, and her complaints?

           If a guy complains about women, he’s pathetic, but if a women complains, lets show our sympathy. See, this is the crap that men have to put up with. I’m not man enough for my wife, because I’m calling women out!

           Reply

           1. Basically you shared your experience with us as though, in some petty way, it equals that which women suffer (violence and intimidation at the hands of men) but the only difference is, women ask for it because they “dress inappropriately.”
              Hmmm, maybe you “asked” to have breasts hanging in front of you because you’re a guy? or the server thought you wanted her advances because you didn’t say “no” or “stop”.
              See how STUPID that kind of logic is? Maybe the server has a frickin boss who makes her wear revealing clothing to keep her job, to get more male customers in, to get better tips? And guess what? Maybe, just maybe, she doesn’t have the options of “just finding another job.”
              And yes, you are pathetic because you and your thinking perpetuate the problem that the blogger describes.

              Reply

              1. I said as much to my wife, that I’m sure her boss is telling her to dress that way, only thing is, another server was not dressed that way, so I might be wrong on that.

                 I never once said, that women ask for it, because of dressing inappropriately. As matter of fact, I would go out of my way to defend any women from sexual harassment regardless to how she is dressed.

                 It’s one assumption after another with you about me, and it makes you look like an ass.

              2. Ass or not, what exactly do you think you mean when you write, “Women dressed inappropriately, where I have to stare away from them while talking to them.”
                 Because using the term “dressed inappropriately” is so loaded and charged with sexual innuendo AND blame.
                 As in she was dressed in a way that made it hard for me to control myself.
                 As in she was dressed in a way that she was asking for it but I could control myself.
                 As in she was dressed “inappropriately” but I controlled myself.
                 Or did you mean she was wearing a parka at the beach?

              3. > “is so loaded and charged with sexual innuendo AND blame.”

                 Woman can dress however they want, and no one can criticize them for it?!?! You can’t criticize them, as if they are some kind of supreme beings? Give me a break.

                 Of course, any objections to how a women dresses, brings up counter positions that I support extreme opposite positions (burka, parka, etc), or endorsing bad behavior against them. There is no middle ground.

                 I find ironic, that most of the derogatory comments directed against women for how they behave/dress, is coming from other women, but it’s a trend to only point out the “sins” of men.

                 Yup, the men who are police, who come to women’s assistance, the men judges who prosecute men, who have committed crimes against women, and the men prison guards, that watch over these men. They never get credit. I have yet to see one blog post praising the men who protect women.

                 I wonder, if it’s about a woman’s insecurities being projected as if real upon all men, as if we are all meant to feel guilty?

                 You should go to a restaurant, and tip the woman exposing herself to you, in solidarity with her freedom to dress however she pleases. I hope you’re there, when the sexual predator follows her home. Of course, you will only see this as me endorsing the predator, because I refuse to accept any limits to how a woman should dress, but the law itself, and cultural norms already have limits. But let’s just ignore that, and live in our fantasy world.

              4. I just want to go on the record telling you that you are very closed minded. You don’t trust women. You don’t have a strong connection to your emotional side. You have the ability to see the issue from a woman’s perspective, but you refuse to try.

              5. It funny, because I also have the same thoughts about men, in how they should dress, behave, etc, so I must have trust issues with men also, and lack connection with my emotional side?

              6. Wow, you fell off the tracks with your post. This whole “dressing inappropriately” comment is a metaphor for the issue described in the blog. The difference between women “dressing inappropriately” and men “dressing inappropriately” is that NO woman (as in the overwhelming majority, so lets not split hairs on the numbers) will attack, subvert, rape, catcall, abuse, threaten, overpower, take advantage of, say lurid things, buy him a drink, touch, or even think he is coming on to her just because he’s walking down the street (or whatever) “dressed inappropriately”. Do you not understand that this article is about FEAR and that your response sounds like women just shouldn’t let their tits hang out and it will be just fine.

                 I invite you to do one thing: take a walk down the street wearing mirrored sunglasses and observe the women passing you or other men by…lets us know what you saw.

              7. Cause and effect. Woman have to contribute to their own safety. If means asking for their husband to meet them at the bus stop at night coming home, then do so. Dressing appropriately also applies.

                 I don’t go to areas, where I fear men may assault me for whatever reason, and behave in a way to attract their attention. So yes, dressing appropriately is a factor whether you like it not. And yes, men are by far more likely to be assaulted by other man than any women being assaulted by a man. So they are not only ones that live in fear of such things.

                 Like women have a monopoly on fear of assault from men!

              8. This comes off as a rant by abused women trying to rally other abused women to bash men. Don’t want to draw a guys glance? Too bad, people look at other people all the time. I look at guys and women for many reasons. Maybe I like the fabric of a guy’s suit. Maybe I find a women beautiful. Perhaps I see someone that looks friendly or unusual. There are a host of reasons why I might check out another person that don’t revolve around women as sex objects. And yes, there are times when I see a woman that for whatever reason makes my pulse quicken and I feel a clear sexual attraction – that’s not a choice, it’s what happens when someone that’s beautiful to me shows up. You can’t tell me you’ve never seen another person that makes you inhale sharply when you first see them. This doesn’t mean someone deserves to abused though.
                 The song “You’re so Vain” keeps coming up as read these comments by women who feel so put upon by evil men. It’s not all about you all the time.
                 For those women raped, assaulted, groped, hassled and otherwise treated as slabs of meat, I’m sorry that you suffered such abuse at the hands of assholes. That type of behavior is abhorrent and nothing excuses it. No matter how you dress, how you speak or otherwise present yourself, nothing merits abuse of any sort and I am sorry that you suffered and continue to suffer from such events. I know I can not even comprehend what it is like.
                 Not all guys belittle women, not all guys rape, grope, beat, catcall or otherwise act in ways unbecoming a gentlemen, so focus your tirade to the assailants and don’t paint all men with the same brush, it weakens your argument.

              9. The article doesn’t paint all men with one brush. It just highlights the issues that many women face every day. Don’t take it personally. If you’re not one of those guys, then there’s no problem. However, if you keep talking about waitresses continually “bending over” while attending to you….it’s impossible to wait tables and not bend over, especially when empty dishes are on the other side of the table. Even when they’re not on the other side of the table. And it’s a testament to how sexist many people are that female waitresses actually do get bigger tips when they wear lower cut tops and tighter skirts, and male waiters just wear the uniform and (in my experience) get promoted to manager without doing nearly as much work (and without showing any skin) as their female counterparts.
                 If a guy’s ass gets grabbed, and he makes a complaint, it’s a big deal. If a girl’s ass gets grabbed and she makes a complaint, the questions are “how short was he skirt?” “How tight were her pants?” “How much cleavage was she showing?” “What’s her sexual history?”….as if any of that matters when someone is harassed. When I was 14 years old and finally told people that I was molested at 7 years old, the overwhelming response was “what did you do to make him want you like that?”. People assumed that when I was seven years old, I did something to “tempt” a 20-something year old man into molesting me.
                 This is a sick world. And I’m sick of it:

519. WOW. Bravo. Beautiful. Heartbreaking. Real. Thank you.

     I’m posting a second comment because my opinions have changed thanks to the commenters here. My first response was, “YOU NEED TO STOP DE-ESCALATING AND START ESCALATING FURTHER…. MEN WILL NEVER CHANGE.”

     I’m happy to say I don’t feel that way any more.

     MEN NEED TO CHANGE.

     Reading the comments by both men and women here really blew my mind. Men, in general, are SO CLOSED MINDED and very AFRAID of the feminine power. Men are very quick to feel offended and attacked by this post and they miss the whole point. They are too busy feeling their own “problems” and fears that they are unable to connect with the writer on any level. The men here are reacting and not feeling. I think that’s representative of the state of the culture presently, but it needs to change. Men need to start feeling more deeply and then they will be able to connect with women in a place where they want connection.

     Here’s the average men’s response here: “No, that’s not fair because one time I felt violated and women wear provocative clothes and one time a woman disrespected me so I don’t respect them.”

     Like for real? Men… this is how your experience of women is because you refuse to feel your own emotions and use that level of inner connection to connect with other people on that same level. Women want to be seen, heard, listened to, felt, found, trusted… and until you can do that you will eternally feel rejected, disrespected and lost. It’s up to US REAL MEN to FEEL women deeply and truly and let go of our own pain and step up and CONNECT. Be open. Be honest. Be real. It’s only a struggle if you let it be.

     Let’s be better. Let’s change. Let’s connect.

     Amen.

     Reply

     1. Thank you Adam…thank you for taking this to heart and for transcending the noise.
        It really starts with men and even how we raise our boys. Most of this behavior toward women isn’t fear, it’s hate-based; the thinking/belief that women are lesser than or even a broken version of a guy. For example, if you want to hurl an insult at a 12 year old boy, what do you do? You call him a girl. Imagine what we are teaching boys with this language??!!! Imagine what a girl FEELS to hear this???!!! Even in these comments, men have used the term “pussy” as a way to degrade a guy who doesn’t subscribe to uber masculinity. It’s not referring to a cat, but the female body, the giver of LIFE! And there’s the all-encompassing word “bitch” everyone uses in every day language, but it’s still rooted in the degradation of women. We need to stop teaching girls that they “can be just like boys” or “do anything the boys do” but rather teach boys that they can respect and put value on things like feelings, talking, hearing, benevolence, caring, crying.
        thanks so much for your cool post.

        Reply

        1. Adam Croce and MAC67

           Right on brothers! I agree. We men need to teach….feelings, talking, hearing, benevolence, caring, crying. I’m going to go cry now.

           You have a point about teaching everyone, men and women alike. That is until you re-read many of the men’s comments regarding their “feelings”, and they did it by “talking” (albeit, the written word), they “listened”, and they are “caring”. (I think its a bit too much to ask men to “cry” for you two idiots.) Did the female commenters do the same thing for the men? Did they in turn “listen”? NO. They rebuked many valid comments (that were not offensive, in my opinion) unless it was “we are just pathetic males and you women are so superior”.

           When was the last time you heard a man catcall a woman? Its been years since I’ve even heard a guy do that. Literally years.

           Again, men are not stupid. Their comments herein are basically saying that women take the position with men that women want men to “Do what I say do but not what I do” concerning the issue of “…feelings, talking, hearing, benevolence, caring…”

           Why don’t you just simply say, ‘OK females, we’ll try better’ and let it go at that? Women complain. That is the nature of women. That’s how it became known as “bitching”.

           It amazes me that so many women commenting claim that this article that basically tells MEN that we are not “listening”, nor “caring”, not “talking”, not “feeling”, is somehow NOT ABOUT MEN. The hell it isn’t about men. Who do you think they are bitching about?

           You two (2) little boys need to grow up.

           Reply

520. As a guy, this article describes unwanted attention and comments directed to women in ways that may not be obvious to us, their negative cumulative toll, and a request to listen instead of dismiss. It seems straightforward.

     Reply

521. Or when men who find ways to walk up to a nursing mother, like grabbing a magazine in a coffee shop that’s on the table in front of her, just to look at her stuff. Very disappointing that men … Or i should say men feel they have some sort of ownership over woman’s personal space.

     Reply

522. Great blog, I have just written an article on subject of Violence against Women. please visit the blog and read the article https://dilipbhatt.wordpress.com/

     Sadly the awful treatment of women is global and getting worse each day. As well as listening, people need to challenge, men in particular need to speck up and confront their male counterparts. Do not accept behaviours which are demeaning to women. Respect for women starts in the home with fathers, brothers and sons. Male gender has a lot to answer to in this context, machismo and masculinity is not a sign of strength, real character comes from values and morals based on upholding someones dignity and we ALL have a duty to uphold that.

     Reply

523. is this really that important (kidding)…but I truly liked the part where Apathyboy and Norman Awards lighten the situation with such poignant remarks

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524. Your article is very telling of the treatment most women will, or have experienced by some men, but I don’t like it and I’ll tell you why: if women desire true equality with men, they need to abandon the idea that men “need to change” in order to (as one poster called) “level the playing field”. No man in his right mind would expect other men to be simpathetic, or understanding, or attentive to his vulnerabilities or his daily struggles, and think that these other men would truly respect him or treat him as an equal. Good or bad, most men are taught to associate strength and assertiveness with equality, so when I read this post imploring for men to understand a woman’s plight, it doesn’t inspire in me notions of a woman truly fighting for her equality. It makes me want to protect you, to be your savior. It comes from a place of paternal, or fraternal love but not from a place of true equality. In my humble opinion, women should stop asking men to change in order to gain equality. If you have to ask somebody else for permission to be equal, then by definition, you’re not really equals, are you? Yes, men need to change, but mostly because it is part of our evolution as human beings, but women need to stop believing that their equality rests in men’s hands. Don’t wait for it, take what’s yours!

     Reply

525. Yes. It irritates me to be constantly on my guard . Catcalling,eve-teasing and groping in public places becomes a striking possibility if I do not watch out. Even inside the alleged safety of my home I cannot be safe because I know first hand that child sexual abuse begins right there. So even after twenty odd years, I am wary. Too wary to enjoy what life brings to me. And I know women who have gone through much more. I have never seen a man swerve because he was afraid the person walking beside him will poke him with his elbows. But to me, it is a dire possibility. I shift uneasily in my chair when a customer has ventured to stand too near. But if I point it out I shall be taken to be a silly woman. He was just being nice they’ll say.
     And what is worse is this subconscious understanding, that it isnt just one day. I do not have the stamina to go through a gruelling confrontation with improper men every day. I cannot make myself so miserable and pathetic. I never want people to put me to questions like:
     It happens a lot with you, doesnt it?
     I never heard someone whine so much.

     Yes it does happen a lot. We do not make an issue every single time. We silently resign to the fact that this is our reality.

     Reply

526. Men, just stop approaching women altogether. Let them do the work for a chance. Let them come to you. It’s clear that any form of communication is considered “harassment” nowadays. MGTOW is here. You can thank Feminism for that one.

     Reply

     1. “Men’s rights Canada”? You do realize that that is the equivalent of “white power Canada” right? The people who already have the rights and have never had to fight for the rights (you know where the phrase “rule of thumb” came from?) don’t actually have a stance in a “rights” movement?
        Actually, I love the idea of a “men’s rights strike” during which men refrain from making lewd comments to women that they’ll never meet from cars and grinding their elections against women at bars/clubs/while dancing in general, among other things.
        So please, men, take the advice of this person. Just stop. Don’t make the first move. Don’t whistle or make loud comments. Don’t do anything suggestive or anything that could be considered suggestive for one week. Then realize that women have to think about everything they do, every day, because if, God forbid, she is assaulted, everything she said, drank, wore, everything she did would be considered “provocative”.
        So you do that. Don’t approach women. Try not to wear clothes that would attract women. Try not to walk in a way that would attract women. Try not to speak in a way that may suggest that you find a woman attractive. Try to go to a bar and *avoid* getting hit on.
        That’s what women do every day. Try it for a week and see how you do.

        Reply

        1. I’m not understanding you’re point. I literally don’t have anything to do with women I don’t know. I don’t initiate conversation, look anywhere I shouldn’t, don’t dress, walk, dance, anything to attract a female. I literally dont have a need for any interaction with females what such ever and am very happy being independent. However some of my mates wifes have pointed out that I don’t respect women. Not sure why not wanting to engage or having a need to engage in the social interaction with females can be seen and not respecting females. If every man who disengages from females like you suggested, would that then mean women everywhere will have a feeling of being disrespected?

           Reply

           1. Perhaps your mates wives are expressing that they feel that you don’t pay attention to them as people. There’s a difference between not giving any sexual attention and not giving any attention at all. Do you listen when they speak? Do you engage them in conversation when they attempt to engage you in conversation? Perhaps your social skills are…lacking. Or perhaps you don’t see how a simple conversation with a woman can be just that: a simple conversation. Maybe you could try not seeing them as women, but just as people. In my experience (as a woman), I have much more respect for someone who treats me like a person (disregarding the breasts and the vagina) than for someone who ignores me because of my gender. It’s simple: TREAT PEOPLE LIKE PEOPLE. Take queues from how they act. You know…general social skills. It’s not rocket science. Or brain surgery. Just…don’t look at gender as a factor unless you are genuinely interested in someone. And if you are, don’t use lines, don’t be aggressive, just…talk to her. Like she’s a person. No successful relationship is built on physical appearance. I don’t have empirical evidence of this, but I do know that people age, gain weight, lose weight…appearance changes. So if you’re looking for a one night stand, then find some chick who’s looking for a one night stand. Just don’t try to do it by using terrible pick up lines or by slipping her a roofie. Be yourself. Or be someone else for a night. Be James Bond for a night, chicks eat that up. Or at least the right chicks appreciate the effort. Or batman. Or superman. Wear a superman costume under your clothes in a random night, go to a bar, have a drink or two, figure out which single girl has been eying you, go to the bathroom and come out as superman. Just for fun. This works best when you have a wing woman who will do the same thing as superwoman. A choreographed dance would probably help.
              The point is: women expect you to be a creep who just wants to get laid. Prove them wrong by doing something unexpected.
              You don’t have to be a creep or a douche to get girls. Not the good ones, anyway.

              Reply

              1. Of course I speak with my mates wifes, (i never initiate a conversation with either gender) and no matter how uninterested I am on the mates wifes topic of choice I do talk to them (would be rude not to) and as annoying as it is a few of them are constantly trying to set me up with someone. Some jargon about being good with kids which is apparently a prerequisite to fatherhood or something. Amongst them, don’t know why you might be on to something they’ve decided I can’t respect women as I don’t notice when someone is trying to get my attention as if I have to 1 notice when someone is trying to get my attention and 2 do something about it just because a girl is trying to get noticed. Stange concept, anyway Im well happy being independent.

              2. So try harder to be more interested in my mate’s wives topic of conversation will make them feel more appreciated? I’m still missing something I think.

              3. Yes, you are. There are many asexual people who aren’t seen as being disrespectful towards women.
                 Try being friends with your friends wives. Or if you want to keep people from trying to set someone up with you, be open about your asexuality. Or just say you’re quite happy being on your own. If they insist, ask them to drop the subject. If they don’t, ask them again. If they still insist, then stop associating with them. Same goes for girls having trouble with guys. Only difference is that guys have the physical strength and stature (statistically) to overpower a woman and to force her to do something that she doesn’t want to do, no matter her sexual preference.

              4. Yes good point. I shouldn’t be associating with people who make me uncomfortable, only reason I have something to do with them is due to wanting to see my mates. Think I’ll limit contact to events. Still not sure how the whole disrespectfull thing comes around but geuss
                 if I limit contact that wont be a issue. One said undervalued rather than disrespect. No way known I’m being open about anything in our small little county. Thank random person you’ve been grand aye

              5. There’s nothing wrong with you William. Don’t feel pressured to do or act any way you don’t want to. The most common saying is “just be yourself” when meeting people, right? You’re not disrespecting anyone at all, you’re a likeable person.

           2. William

              I too have experienced the same perplexing thing i.e. “I don’t initiate conversation, look anywhere I shouldn’t…. However some of my mates wifes have pointed out that I don’t respect women.”

              My wife’s female friends said that about me. I disrespected my wife’s female friend because I wasn’t interested in sleeping with her. Women want men’s attention. But I give my attention to only my wife because their are more important things in life (business) than women.

              Reply

              1. Sorry. Meant “there” rather than “their” in the last sentence. 🙂

        2. Thank you for supporting my comment.

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        3. It’s just a username. Stop overthinking.

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        4. about ‘Mens rights’.. How about the many wars that MEN have fought and died for.. in many cases for the sake of EVERYONE’S rights.

           I’m an egalitarian… I do my darnedest to treat everyone equally and with respect, but the whole of society is getting so uptight and offended by *everything* that I’m not afraid of stepping on a few toes anymore.

           Reply

527. Thank you for the post you have reminded that the only people who experience this are of a single and that it is the majority of the other gender that behave this way towards them.
     Experience has brought me into contact with hundreds of victims of the abuse you refer to and what can’t be obvious to feminists is most is gender isn’t the critical factor – it is the perpetrators power, once they have that power they use it to exploit the insecurity of the majority.
     Sadly the social commentary you articulate applies to both genders.
     This behaviour is unacceptable in all society without looking at the gender – all victims require the support and the strength you describe.
     Enjoyed the read although I found the content extremely sexist and extraordinarily sweeping in its use of generalizations.

     Reply

528. Reblogged this on nirupamaprv and commented:
     So, scarily true and thought provoking…. Yup, conversations need to start… What can I say? Folks, just listen!

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529. Just seems easier, especially after reading most of these comments to disengage form the opposite sex. Lets just make a her side of town and a his side of town with a series of land mines marking center to keep the 2 sides separated. Think about it, as crazy as it might seem it’s a definite solution. Procreation is artificially achievable now. One gender doesn’t need the other and vise versa.

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530. I agree with you on almost all the things you speak about. But there was one sentence which struck a small nerve. You wondered how it would be to be a man for a day, totally free of stares.. I think you may have considered it as a general wistful thinking, but it implies that men have it easy. Like they have nothing to worry about. Freedom from sexism as a whole would be a better ideal in my opinion.

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531. “So maybe they don’t know. Maybe they don’t know that at the tender age of 13 we had to brush off adult men staring at our breasts.”

     Ofcourse they do!
     They probably felt compelled to do it themselves, because thats how the male brain is wired.
     Part of the difficulty of being a man, is learning to control, or restrain your own needs.

     Your assumption is really a strange one.
     “Males probably dont know about typical male behaviour”.

     Old men are still attracted to young women, the only big change is their self-discipline and their knowledge on how to cope with it.
     If you were a straight male it would also be in your nature to stare at young fertile women, you would have a hard time not to, and your sex drive would be a lot stronger too!

     Id much rather have been born without a male sex-drive that a) Makes me susceptible to manipulation via sex b) Drives me to seek sex c) Is economically costly, can feel humiliating when rejected, frustrating, and causes conflict with womens interests.

     So the least you could do is just suck it up. If you dont wanna date an old horny geezer, dont. If you dont want people to oogle your junk, cover it up a bit.

     Reply

532. As a man, I refuse to validate paranoia. There are real problems in the world, real threats. Much of the stuff listed in this post, though, falls under the category of nonsense and seems intended to foster an us vs. them mentality and promote an identity of victimhood. Women are adults. They are strong, capable and independent and do not need to be infantilized in this way.

     Reply

     1. Here’s some food for thought, James. 80% of men would rape a woman if they knew they wouldn’t get caught. But the problem isn’t the high proportion of men thinking this, but rather the fact they probably don’t think rape is illegal because it’s wrong, but instead, it’s wrong because it’s illegal. THAT is patriarchy. THAT is misogyny. THAT is a power structure that benefits those who put it into place. THAT is a reality your daughter, wife, mother, sister, aunt etc., live with. Doesn’t that disgust you? or are you part of the 80%?

        Reply

        1. Can you supply a link, or some kind of documented evidence preferably something non bias please Mac? Just so we all know you’re not sprouting nonsense 🙂 cheers big ears.

           Reply

     2. Sit back and read between the lines James Risdon. The Author of this article has pointed out things that are of concern to females. I’ve since written replys baiting for descriptions in detail which was surprisingly easy and effective, read through my previous replys. You will learn and should be able to extract what my college mates and I call “the root system”, basically the author and followers have given us a step by step guide on how to fool girls into opening legs (best xmass present eva). Remember all the things this author has written when next in the “market” , pretend to agree with them, don’t be physically forceful, don’t chase and pretend to not be looking instead be observant of when a girl is trying to get noticed then make contact and make them think there’s a “spiritual” connection by manipulating conversation and acting interested (this will make them believe there they’re in control). Works EVERY TIME, I’ve had a new girl every couple of days. Oh yeah to get rid of em just act creepy and then remind them that they “chose” you. Works especially well on feminist who seem to like being dominant in the bedroom, 🙂 just lay back and enjoy :D.

        Reply

        1. William

           You are a dick!

           Reply

           1. Lawyer

              And you’re not a dick?

              Reply

              1. Anonymous

                 Only in my BRIEFS 🙂

                 You walked into that one.

533. Gretchen Kelly

     Many of the attorneys here (mostly men but some women) read your blog about your son. Everyone here agrees, Gretchen, you are a wonderful mother to your son.

     On a side note: (my own thought) Not all men want to be fathers. Your son might be the next Vanderbilt or J.P. Morgan and care less about children. Please don’t just see him as a future “father”, but as a man entitled to go after his education and his dreams. I assume, just like you would your daughter?

     Reply

534. Reblogged this on allgroanup and commented:
     Listen

     Reply

535. “I get the comments … Every. Single. Time.”

     Looks like you need them again, because they are true more then ever with this piece. Most of these fears are fears you have created yourself so you can live in your own little whiny paralyzed victim-hood existence and demand special attention and sympathy. Most of the listed analyses you do in your head about all these situations … is something almost everyone of every gender does in their head all the time. No one things its special (besides you) because it isn’t.

     There ARE more important things and real issues, but dealing with them would require you to wake up and face reality. This would take away your special victim credit and attention which you have worked so hard to cultivate. Thus you must keep that from happening. Hence this piece you have written here to try and wave away the important questions you get asked “every single time” while still pretending to be magnanimous instead of a just a common place narcissist with a victim complex you have enslaved yourself to.

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     1. No. I’m in no way saying that men don’t have their struggles. Hell, I’ve written about it. I am appalled at the pressures and expectations placed on men in our society. None of what I’m saying here is intended to negate or diminish what men go through. That is just as valid and important and I can only write about that on a limited basis because I don’t fully understand it as I HAVEN’T LIVED IT.

        What I’m trying to point out is that women go through this so often it’s become normal. The threat of sexual assault is always in the back of our minds. I have polled most of the females I know and have had input from many who have commented or Tweeted or messaged me after this article. Every single one I have spoken to or heard from experienced something (usually at a young age, at least by the teen years, younger for some) that sexualized them or made them feel unsafe (even if only for a moment) with a man. Sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable too. AND I’M NOT SAYING THAT MEN HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IT EITHER. But the frequency and the ever presence of it with women is probably something a lot of men are unaware of. BECAUSE MOST MEN ARE GOOD GUYS WHO DON’T TREAT WOMEN THIS WAY. AND THE SLEAZY GUYS WHO DO, DON’T DO IT WHEN OUR BOYFRIENDS/HUSBANDS/BROTHERS/FRIENDS ARE AROUND. (and I firmly believe those sleazy guys are the minority. I have always had a lot of great guys in my life- friends, boyfriends, co-workers and acquaintances)

        I don’t live in fear. I don’t walk around in fear. I’m an independent woman living a magnificent life, I live with joy and an optimistic outlook. I travel alone, I am strong of mind and body. I lift weights, I run, I investigate and learn and always try to evolve further and be better.There is no victimhood in what I wrote. No, there is recognition of something that acknowledging and being aware of makes me stronger. And from the words of an astonishing number of women who’ve read this, empowered them. Do you know why this went viral? Was published in over six languages and featured on big sites (Huffington Post and Upworthy) and had almost 3 million views on this blog alone? Because it struck a nerve with so many women. If this was a narcissistic piece about a shallow and self absorbed writer I highly doubt it would have spread far and wide like it did.

        As for “real issues” just so you know this is a common deflecting/side-tracking comment that makes me LOL. I write and talk about “real issues.” Lots of them. Education, racism, poverty.

        I wrote this to have a dialogue, a good discussion. And I’ve had so many great discussions about this. With men and women. I’ve had discussions with men who didn’t agree with everything I wrote. And they were great discussions that were enlightening to me and I think to them as well. It’s sad that people step in here and have no desire to engage in productive and mature conversations and dialogues. They throw around words like “narcissist” and “victim” and I guess that makes them feel better about themselves? I don’t know. I’ve never walked into someone’s house or entered their blog or page or article and just spewed venom. If I take issue with something I say so in a productive way. I truly believe that there are so many sides to any issue. That if we listen to each other and hear what the other has to say we can learn and understand each other better. Your comment leads me to think you have no interest in that at all.

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        1. Gretchen, Frank didn’t even mention negating or diminishing or ‘what about the men’ – you automatically tried to justify yourself with that! The females you’ve polled are likely to be of the same mindset as you, but I can assure you I don’t fear sexual assault every time I go out. It’s not in the back of my mind all the time. I have what’s known as ‘a life beyond my own self’. When you say there is no victimhood in what you wrote, that is completely untrue. Your piece here oozes victimhood. If in fact you don’t experience it, then why do you claim to even know it? You don’t know, because what you have written is not fact. It is nothing more than the politically correct opinion to have, and you’ve likely been as brainwashed as the rest of the braindeads from the women and gender studies classes! You haven’t left room for discussion. You didn’t call for discussion. You made a series of assertions and claimed they were facts. They aren’t.

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           1. Very well said!

              Gretchen Kelly, You made a terrible blunder when you generalized the feelings of so many women, and the actions of so many men… Starting with the title “ALL WOMEN”, which really makes it ‘clickbait’, and has been proven false enough times here..
              I’ll gladly give you the benefit of the doubt and say perhaps it’s true WHERE YOU LIVE, but I know it doesn’t hold true where I live. Where you live this may need to be addressed, and good on you for that, just don’t use a sledgehammer to drive a tack.

              Furthermore, how does ‘victimhood’ of getting catcalled come into being? I’m quite sure it starts early.. Lets say a young boy likes and stares at a young girl… She doesn’t care much, until someone else says one of 2 things.. “Oohh.. he likes you”, or “Shame on him, that’s terrible”. Someone else has made up her mind how she should react from then on!
              Same is true on the flip side evidently, if the boy is told (or notices) that catcalling or lewd behavior is an effective way to get the girl’s attention, he’ll probably do it.. In some places it works, and in others it doesn’t.

              Reply

              1. Terrible blunder? Hahahaha. Sure. This was a terrible blunder. Too bad most people didn’t agree with you and this is one of the top blog posts of THE YEAR (that according to Huffington Post and WordPress << which powers 25% of the internet by the way) And FYI, not once in this post did I claim to be a victim. Nope.

                 *leans in and whispers* and at no point did this blog post mention being cat-called by young peers or classmates. Sigh…

              2. I don’t care where you live Bob, it happens there too. Who are you to declare that it doesn’t? Why don’t you ask some of the women you know about their experiences?

                 The shame and fear women feel from being catcalled isn’t the result of some third person saying “that’s terrible”. It’s the result of feeling like an object that can be used and abused on the whim of the catcaller.

              3. @Gretchen Kelly. The terrible blunder is to say “ALL” women.. There’s been enough women posting here to prove that, as well as many other gross generalizations you have made. I understand the point of the article, and know there is lots of room for improvement in mens’ behavior.. no doubt about that.

                 Clair Drake, Because of this article I have done exactly that.. I asked many of the girls I know, some more attractive than others, and it was a small minority that felt this way.. 2 out of 11.

                 We are all conditioned about how to react to things. To be oversimplistic, depending on the culture receiving a gift can be taken kindly, as an act of friendship and generosity, or as an offense to the person’s ability to buy it for themselves.

              4. The very fact you are referring to grown women as “girls” is a great point of departure to debunk your arguments. Unless, of course, you asked “females” under the age of, say, 16 about their experiences. If not, before you argue that referring to women as girls is “no big deal”, language is very powerful and purposeful. There is a reason you see your friends as girls and not your equal….or are you a boy?

                 I may also add that this issue is so conditioned in women, that many not even think about it, even if they have experienced it.

              5. Like most people, I refer to people younger than me as ‘boys and girls’ and those older as ‘men and women’.. I guess it’s a fault. I did refer to any females I didn’t know the age of here as “women”

                 Heaven forbid I ever overestimate the age of a woman.

           2. Um. Perhaps your reading comprehension is lacking. You seem to have difficulty not only understanding this post but Frank’s comment as well. Frank said (in his first paragraph, right before he gave me a good chuckle by trying to diagnose narcissism via the internet) that what I wrote about is common to both genders. Which is why I addressed his point.

              And the things I wrote? They are real life things that did in fact happen to me. Just a handful that I picked to share. You can dwell in your antiquated notions that speaking about something makes you a victim. If that’s working for you, go for it. But to put your real name and face (D. Guinness) and write about these things is the furthest thing from victimhood. I have an amazingly wonderful life with an incredible husband and family and friends. I’m one of those “ridiculously happy” people. I can write about things that need to be discussed and still be happy in my life. I can speak about things and it doesn’t mean that I’m hiding under the covers. Like I said, my name, my face. Right there. I’m not hiding, D. Guinness. It’s mighty easy for you and some others to hide behind the keyboard and anonymity and say ugly things. (We tend to call that trolling, FYI) Some of us choose to do things with integrity and out in the open.

              As for the discussion? Do you realize that most bloggers block commenters that troll or pop in to say ugly things and then disappear? Many bloggers moderate every comment on their blog. I don’t. I allowed anyone and everyone to comment on this. I probably should have blocked a few who got ugly with other commenters but frankly I couldn’t keep up with the volume of comments between here and all of the other places this post was published. So to accuse me of not inviting discussion? That’s laughable. There has been discussion far and wide on this post. Perhaps not in your little bubble, but trust me. And I don’t block commenters who call me narcissist or a victim. I’m a big girl. I can take a few words being hurled at me from people who hide behind a computer screen. 🙂

              Reply

              1. Good work Gretchen! You have ventured where most fear to tread! I honestly wouldn’t bother with the posts from these guys that have no idea what you’re talking about because they haven’t lived it. I wrote a post last year about one of the things you referred to in your post: https://nemiboyo.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/the-perverted-stranger/ when men respond as they have to your post it prevents women from wanting to speak out about anything.

           3. I don’t agree with you. I think that her piece was as an opinion, and a experience she was sharing. It is not untrue, and just because it hasn’t happened to you DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT WONT! I have had a lot of female coworkers have this problem, and I myself have had this problem as well. And its true, it is a awkward feeling to say something or to not say something. And people with that type of attitude are the ones who make it awkward and frightening for females to come forth and want to address the issue.

              Reply

        2. I am a man and agree with most of what you have communicated. Women have been treated in disrespectful ways for thousands of years and we are finally seeing with clearer eyes however we are also seeing that our whole culture has deminished all of us around our sexuality, making our sexuality something separate from who we are, something negative, something to be hidden and treated as a problem rather than a natural aspect of our being and of our relationships with one another so we don’t know how to relate to one another in a natural sexual way when that is the energy that is stimulated between us so it comes out in some abberated form rather than as an expression of our sexual passion for one another. Love, natual attraction and sex have been so suppressed, so hidden, so inhibited, so denied, we no longer know how to express this vital human response in a natural and healthy way so it comes out in some twisted way that isn’t respectful of men or women. Our society is fundamentally dishonest about almost everything that makes us human, our feelings and our sexualtiy and we are finally facing what it is to be human, what it is to be real and how to express ourselves in an honest, open, authentic way.

           I appreciate you in having the courage to express your real feelings and responses to how you and other women are treated. We have to get honest with one another if we are to get real and actually learn how to relate to one another in an open, honest way. We are a world of people living in so many illusions because of the false socially fabricated beliefs into which we have all been born and reared.

           Getting honest about our sexuality is the only way we can resolve these issues and that begins with accepting what it is to being a human being, including our natural sexuality.

           Reply

     2. My partner and I discussed this and you are very wrong when I walk to the car at night I worry about getting raped I don’t care about getting mugged I’d happily handover everything I have my partner may walk to the car but he worries about getting mugged not about getting raped and therein lies the difference

        Reply

     3. Frank, you are friggin’ awesome! Well said. Hear hear. Cheers. I raise a toast to you. I am a woman, and I am sick and tired of this ‘perpetual victim’ label that feminists keep putting on me without my permission. It’s frustrating, and it’s bullsh1t. I’m absolutely done with feminism because of it. Thank you Frank.

        Reply

        1. Victim:
           :a person who has been attacked, injured, robbed, or killed by someone else
           : a person who is cheated or fooled by someone else
           : someone or something that is harmed by an unpleasant event (such as an illness or accident)

           I’ll agree that the article generalizes. Not every woman experiences fear when catcalled, walking to the car, or in the grocery store. Some women would not consider themselves “harmed” by these acts of– what some would consider– just ordinary rudeness. Some women have taken martial arts, or are natural fighters, and don’t feel like they would be overpowered.

           BUT, that said? Even though I’ve lived in safe parts of cities, and myself/ the people around me have been in reasonably safe environments (not poverty stricken crime zones for example), I know at least 5 women who’ve been sexually assaulted, two who’ve been raped, and five or six who have been followed. I’ve been followed and groped by a stranger, had some guy try to lure me into a van in a parking lot while waiting at a bus stop, had another old man circle the block multiple times to try and convince me to go home with him– while on a main street, and underage. I don’t live my life in constant fear, because I don’t see the situations I’m typically in as terribly dangerous. We know everyone, and I’m never far from help.

           But I DO feel a heightened sense of awareness if I’m walking alone at night in a city, and a man starts walking behind me, even a ways down the street. Or now, even if I’m walking with a friend. I DO feel concern for the women around me at a bar, and have an eye out for “creepy” men (precisely because there’s a danger of sexual assault, not theft). I don’t fear the unknown women around me. I have a fighting chance if they attacked me, and the worst that’s likely to happen is I get my wallet stolen. It’s the men that need watching– because they might not want my stuff. They might want my body too. And chances are, I’m not as strong as they are. And life has proved that there are plenty of creeps out in the sea that given the chance, would feel entitled, particularly if drunk. There’s some truth in this article– and some statements might be more true for some women than others, but it’s more likely a majority, than a minority.

           You don’t have to walk around whining about the state of things all the time, or spend your life in total and utter fear of men– that’s not practical or worthwhile. But there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that some of the dumb shit we accept as normal behaviour (catcalls–particularly if followed by aggressive language, unasked for groping, being followed, asking what victims of assault were wearing, etc) actually CONTRIBUTES to the incidence of rape/sexual assault. Certainly contributes to women’s awareness of the potential for men to want to try something, that’s for sure.

           Reply

           1. I don’t think that she was saying that women walk around worried about this all of the time. In fact I think she was saying the opposite, because she is explaining how women have this feeling and feel ashamed and over-dramatic because of how society makes women seem like their crying victim. Its the truth that people don’t like to bring up, that a lot of women, not all, but a lot do experience some situation like the ones spoken in this blog. Some women might not even realize that their being harassed. Everybody react differently to different situations. Just because some people reading this do not agree or feel differently doesn’t mean that she was false, it just means that you don’t feel that way.

              Reply

     4. You’re in denial. You would love to believe that your little world is safe and sound and true and good. I’m sad for you. You are the problem you are the big part of the problem and will never help to solve an issue because your mind is closed. I do not want you on my team when we have to solve a problem and gain a new idea and write a new law or change the world. Because you have the state of mind dad nothing is wrong so why change it or look at a resolution especially if you are part of the problem

        Reply

        1. Previous comment to d Guinness space space my previous comment was Mark from anonymous I wanted to make clear it was based on what d Guinness commented I did not want to be anonymous and I wanted to be clear on that

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     5. Pray you come back in the next life as a woman. Too astonishing you don’t get it or it’s hence, too over your mignon head for you to get it.

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536. “It’s the reality of being a woman in our world.” If you change woman to person and you’d be closer to the truth. Actually this Frank guy said it well so I have to repeat it: (… Every. Single. Time) “is something almost everyone of every gender does in their head all the time.”

     “We are aware that we are the smaller, physically weaker sex.” Well most men have the same experience. Most men are not the strongest or biggest and most men will have women that are stronger than them (fewer but still some) and no excuses to turn to like: oh, I’m just part of the weaker sex.

     go read this – it should help: https://psy.fsu.edu/~baumeisterticelab/goodaboutmen.htm

     Reply

     1. Please refer to my response to Frank, above. Thank you.

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     2. No, Mark. While women also may harass men in public, gender inequality means that the power dynamics at play, frequency of the harassment, the underlying threat of rape, and the impact on the harassed person’s life is rarely comparable.
        http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/about/what-is-street-harassment/

        Reply

        1. Really? Can you guess what gender is the most prone to being a victim of physical violence? How is that not comparable?

           Reply

     3. A 1985 US Army study found out that women have 63% of isometric strengh of men. If you want to extrapolate that with the fear of other men, you are saying that you are a 63kg guy in a world of 100kg men (that’s 138lb vs 220lb for the metric impaired.)

        Reply

537. This was beautiful.

     Thank you.

     There are males who agree with you completely.

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     1. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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538. Forget Frank. You have articulated the facts.

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     1. Thank you for that.

        Reply

     2. Facts? Hardly facts.

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539. Amazing text. The other day my husband and I were talking about a quote we saw online that said “when a man goes to prison, his biggest fear is being raped. Little does he know this is a woman’s biggest fear every day”. I told my husband that when I walk alone at night and get scared of something happening, I’m glad that I take the pill, so if I get raped, at least I won’t get pregnant. I said it like it was nothing, like it was a completely natural thought that didn’t mean much. But it was when I saw the shock and sadness in his face that I noticed how crazy it is that we women don’t even realise we’re taking precautions like it was our duty, like it’s naturally our responsibility to keep ourselves safe from men.

     Reply

     1. Wow, Nicole. That is a powerful story. And THAT is exactly it. We just go about our business not really thinking about these things and are mostly nonchalant about it. I think having a teen age daughter and son are part of the reason I started to realize how often I shrug these things off. I don’t want my daughter to shrug these things off or to have to think (albeit subconsciously) this way. Thank you so much for your comment. Your point about men fearing rape in prison is a powerful way to illustrate the underlying fear. I wish I’d thought of that and used it in this post! And absolutely would help to clarify things with some of the people who keep telling me that men experience every thing I wrote about. Sigh…

        Reply

        1. I understand how you feel, trying to make these people see the truth can be really frustrating at times. But still I like to think that society is evolving into something better. It may seem like we’re only taking baby steps, but the fact that these matters are being discussed at all is promising. 🙂

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540. This is simply one of the best articles I have ever read you have a completely describe my life thank you for having the bravery to write this piece I wouldn’t have realised and have just done exactly what you have said all my life I won’t any more thank you

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     1. Thank you so much Alexsandra. Any time you, or any of the others who read this, say something like you said it really means so much to me. It makes it *that* much easier to deal with some of the trolls who have been frequenting this comment thread. Thank you. <3

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541. It is always males leaving these ignorant comments (for obvious reasons). Really great article ! Thanks !

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     1. Thank you so much David! And I’m grateful that there have been so many men (like yourself) who read this and appreciated it. Thankfully, the positive responses have far outweighed the negative.

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     2. You do realize that a few females actually responded and agree’d with Frank. Not to mention how you painted and entire gender with the same brush with your remark.

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542. Frank’s a dick

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     1. Well said David.

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        1. “We have all, on many occasions, ignored an offensive comment. We’ve all laughed off an inappropriate come-on. We’ve all swallowed our anger when being belittled or condescended to.”

           That quote is from this article. Read it and think about your comment.

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543. During my youth my interaction with opposite sex was mostly positive. I have met some male fools but they shamed themself with their words and behaviour not me.
     Now in my company almost all employee are women so on daily basis I don’t see and hear such shameful words and behaviour. My country is relative safe so I never felt insecured when I walked alone at night. I cannot imagine going through those experiences on daily bases. But I know that this is a reality of many women.

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544. I’ve followed this blog on and off since November. What strikes me the most is the tone of those who comment and want to deny, reflect, or project onto the nature of this topic. If they disagree, why do they become emotionally abusive? It’s like they hate the fact that they can’t control a woman – a woman speaking her truth, or truth on behalf of many many many women. There’s an irony to that.

     Another thing that surprised me is the childish response of the men who say, “well it’s just not a problem for women.” Isn’t that a point of this article? Pointing to the fact that it is men (many, some, a lot, not all) who create this state of reality for so many of us? Isn’t that a terrible tragedy? We have one life on this earth and there are men who choose to prey on others, to misuse power and our culture accepts it?

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545. Im sure if leo decaprio called you sweetheart at work or smacked your ass it wouldnt be “sexual harassment” you would post that all over facebook.

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     1. I’m only sure of things that are certain, not possible or even probable. Our baselines for certainty aside, what exactly is that supposed to prove?

        What I infer is this: If a lady is ok with one persons advances she must be ok with every persons advances.

        However I’m sure I must be wrong so please enlighten me.

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        1. ” If a lady is ok with one persons advances she must be ok with every persons advances.”

           That’s not what they said and you are just trying to make them a victim again with what you are inferring. And why not make it gender neutral? You made a choice to make it about a “lady”.

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546. I am in my “older” years…..and for all those women here who have never experienced what Gretchen Kelly has written you don’t know how lucky you are……From the age of 12 being groped by an Uncle to unsolicitated comments and unwanted touching on crowded trains etc. etc., was all part of my growing up experience….and on into womanhood.
     One time while chatting away to female friends…the matter of unwelcomed male attention came up and the number of those friends who had experienced similar occurrences was practically two thirds of them….and all expressed how cautious it made them with regards to the opposite sex….
     Unfortunately it is easy to trivialise this behaviour or make remarks about victimhood…obviously made by people who have never experienced it…. but I regard this article as quite unique in stating it as it is for quite a serious lot of women(in my opinion)…and how it has been …its not a new thing after all…but it needs to change….

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547. I wrote a long script re this article but somehow clicked and deleted it !
     so this is gonna be short…lol…

     brilliant article Gretchen Kelly never thought I would ever read something regarding this…and I have been about for quite a few years…so I commend you.

     For all those of you here either trivialising or going on about victims I can only assume you have obviously not experienced this unwanted behaviour… because if you had you would see it differently.

     …and in my opinion..i do think it is a serious number of women that have suffered such unwanted attention…..

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548. This is absolute reality, stated with clarity. Before anyone criticized this or the author, I challenge you to spend a day listening and observing, and ask yourself if you would be fine with watching your sister or your mother or your daughter or your wife/girlfriend experiencing these moments in your presence. If it wouldn’t, then ask yourself if you would be fine being treated that way. Challenge your own expectations of how a girl or woman should be treated.

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     1. You should have made it gender neutral otherwise you are ignoring the real problem. The real problem is with how we treat people in general because treatment like this happens to all genders.

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549. Thank you for articulating this so clearly for me. As a privileged white male etc etc I have no idea how pervasive this behaviour is and am deeply saddened by it.

     But yeah, speaking up about it would help us understand it. And try not to worry about the opinions of the naysayers.

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550. actually frank, this is dead fucking on….i just started transitioning male to female, im 30 and grew up male…i never even noticed any of this shit and didnt until i wasnt part of the tribe so to speak…now i notice that it doesnt even matter if i look nice, i think i smell different and i get shit…guys trying to shout me down, hit on me, grab me, pet my fucking hair, i dont feel safe walking alone at night anymore….this is fairly eloquently put….its not that u dont care or are wrong, im not saying that, im just saying u dont get it, like i never got it…..until it HAPPENED to me….if u knew how accurate this was you would constantly be angry about the way your female friends and loved ones are treated, but it rolls off their backs because its always, and it doesnt do any good to get you all pissed off….then they just have to9 minimize it and calm you down…which is 20 or so minutes you will never get back you could have spent doing ANYTHING else…..just chiming in….

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551. “the threat of sexual assault is always in the back of your mind”. really, what kind of men do you hang out with ?

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     1. She’s referring to men in the streets. Unless you live in a bubble and never commute to work or wherever you spend your daily activities, then there’s always going to exist strange men in the streets, in the public transportation, etc.

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552. Thank you for a provoking and well written article! Even though I subtly agree with a part of the critique (not all women go through all of those experiences, but a vast majority go through at least a couple of the experiences) I think there’s one important thing to your tone and possible lack of nuance: this shit has been going on for ages and equality isn’t given when asked for in a nice and obedient manner. Just look at the responses here… The more intense the inequality, the more legitimized the bluntness of the response. I’d just be very sensitive to differences in experiences between womxn, so not to alienate some womxn or construct a too inclusive category (2nd wave vs. 3d wave debate).

     Frankly this is what I, as a white privileged bisexual cismale, miss: you sum all that shit up and your request is only that we listen? I mean that’s the very least we can do. We need to reclaim what it means to be a good man, and man the fuck up. Speak out against sexism amongst male-friends and in a respectful manner engage in meaningful discussion with (wo)men about the topic. At the same time we can’t’claim’ the topic, nor fight this fight for womxn. We can fight alongside, but that’s about as far as we can go without reproducing the problem of stereotypes of womxn not being able to fend for themselves.

     Which brings me to the following point of critique: your article also implies that many womxn are allowing men to remain the problem. I’ve seen girls get harassed -groped, being kissed against will, danced with against will, etc.- at the dance floor (eventually we told the drunk dude to go home) but only after awaiting her response. Which should be a slap in the face and a proud shout to get lost. Instead she smiled and politely declined (a couple of times because he clearly didn’t accept no for an answer). You sketched out the depth of the fear and shame but I’m afraid that there is more action required for this nonsense to come to a full stop. The shame and fear need to go and I would like to engage in a discussion on what the role of men should be there.

     A lot of the problems you address, like womxn being less strong, also reproduce that as a reality. It’s not feminine to engage in martial arts, practice diligently, and fight back. I’ve also noticed many womxn severely underestimating their own strength when it comes to sports, moving and carrying things around, playfully fighting, etc. There are physical differences but it’s averages only. In many situations the womxn can be stronger than the men. I would love to say: it shouldn’t be like this and womxn should be able to walk the street without fear of rape and cat calling, but that’s not the reality right now. So while we’re working on stopping sexists and sexism I think it’s important for womxn to break through that shame and fear and own it. And us men should back you up in any stand of, against bosses, friends and disco-harassers.

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553. There is great truth in the article regarding the everyday reality of women, not only in Western culture but also worldwide. I enjoyed reading it and, although I can agree to an extent that there might be hints of glittering generalities present or hyperbolism in some of the phrasing, with respect to all the particulars it is a truthful article with honest insight into the struggles of women in “a man’s world”. To the females reading the article and commenting that you have not had the experiences detailed in it, I congratulate you and hope that your life continues in this manner. It would be wonderful if we could all line in such a world as yours. However, given that I can relate directly to most of the situations outlined here – moreover, I will attest to the general knowledge that most women can share regarding feelings of minimization and what we call the “common sense” of being a woman – I feel that the author has done a good job summarizing the struggles. Any woman I know well enough to be privy to her personal experiences, has a story relating to undesired advances or attention that is more than ‘uncomfortable’ but, in fact, dangerous. It was my husband that made me realize how little a man knows of these things. Just as I can never put myself into the place of my husband, he cannot put himself into mine. I will not know the struggles of a man in our culture, I can sympathize and listen with interest, console, or offer solutions. My husband’s world and my own are very different, but even as a couple he did not fully understand. No man can. And those men who comment with what you feel to be insightful remarks of how what women feel, say or think is irrelevant because you know better what life is like for them, you are mistaken. I do not presume to understand life as a man, therefore I ask that you not do the same towards women. My husband understands better since we became parents to a daughter. Situations that once did not disturb my husband if I had entered into them alone (or, if they did disturb him, he did not let on to me unless he felt I was in imminent or immediate danger), suddenly these situations made him as uncomfortable as they did me if they pertained to our daughter. One day, he suddenly began mentioning that she should not be allowed to go to someone’s home, especially overnight, that we do not know exceptionally well. She should not drive alone at night without a cell phone, walk alone to her car at night, go to a deserted or dangerous area alone. Although I would say that no one should do these things and of course, I agreed with him in all these cases. When I asked him why he suddenly became concerned about this, it was not because these are bad ideas in general. It was because he worried she could be attacked, raped, or overpowered by a man. But it took forty years from him to make these connections. Connections that I, and most women I know, understand by the time we are teenagers – if not sooner. Of course men get into fights as well. Of course men understand what danger is and how to handle it. What we woman have to fear is so different from men, I see how it can be difficult to perceive. And beyond just the dangers of being a woman, why is it seen as being a prude if we do not welcome the advances of a man? Is it uncomfortable? In many cases it is. Is it appropriate? Usually not. Is it dangerous? Who knows. Should I endure a man’s harassment with silence, or respond with a smile? A nod, reply, chuckle, or frown? Should I keep walking, working, or moving past him as though it did not happen? If I say “no”, will he hear “yes”? If I leave, will he follow? If he follows, will he harm me? Rape me? Kill me? Do I have a weapon and if I do, what if he is harmless? What if I get blamed for this? Did I pay any attention to how low my top is, how short by bottoms are, how much skin I am showing? These are just a few of the questions that run through women’s brains. Does a man worry with such things? Does a man have to consider if his shorts are too short to claim self-defense, or prove he did not want to be attacked? Does a man have to worry about being told he wanted it to happen because he went outdoors wearing his favorite outfit? All men are not devils. All women are not angels. It requires understanding from both sexes/genders to make this issue one that is more universally understood and, hopefully, corrected. But blaming, shaming, finger-pointing, name-calling, anger-provoking, feeling-nullifying dismissal of either side is not helping.

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554. Wow, this opened my eyes. Thank you for writing and sharing this article. I will do a better job treating women better.

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555. For me…what I find really sad..i love women and femininity..and it is the males who don’t know how to treat a women, that often spoil it for those of us that do. I find it sad, that because of this situation, often when i walk past a women..she will not smile..make no eye contact..look angry or unnerved. I just want to apologise for the behavior of others that has made so many women defensive, fearful and distressed…It is such a delight when a girl/women has the confidence to look me in the eye and simply smile ..as I smile.. and we make a brief contact as human beings.. acknowledging each other’s being…

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556. Reblogged this on Following Muses.

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557. Thanks for your post.

     I recently left an organization devoted to cultural transformation. I’m 60 years old, and though I haven’t had any bad experiences for some decades now, I certainly retained my street smarts.

     Oops. I assumed that being in an organization devoted to cultural transformation meant that everyone had a certain maturity. I didn’t know about personality disorders then.

     Over time, I minimized the escalating threats because I didn’t want to lose my relationship with this organization because of the fucked up behavior of one man. I finally reached the end of my capacity and convinced myself I was being paranoid to think that the white man in charge would respond in that ‘old school’ way, and spoke up.

     Despite the fact that over time women avoided working with this guy, and that he came right out and said he had been honing his ‘parasite’ and ‘con artist’ skills at the organization, when he gave a vivid description of the ways he’d like to murder me with his bare hands (in response to my expressing concern about some of his behavior), this was seen by the man in charge as my personal problem, and it was suggested I go to therapy. I was also told that in order to continue being part of the organization, I had to ‘work it out’ with him.

     Out of curiosity, I did have some conversation with this man. He said he wanted to make reparations for those threats, and then started explaining how he couldn’t handle anything that he interpreted as criticism, and if I said anything he interpreted as criticism, well, then, I was responsible for unleashing ‘the monster’ in him, and that it was my violence, not his, that caused it, because he was nothing but generous, kind, and giving. (I’m not making this up.)

     I confess that I had been living in kind of a bubble and thinking that issues of white male privilege and violence against women were exaggerated – surely we had made progress on this score? (I had spent a lot of the last two decades raising two sons and being involved in the horrendous mess called “public education.” ) This was a jarring awakening to the insidiousness of the issues, both outside, and inside. I was truly aghast at the kind of permission this man was receiving, and shocked when I became aware of how I had played along by minimizing, overaccommodating, acquiescing when I was afraid of this man’s rage, etc.

     When I write this down, I still have trouble believing that it’s true, and I know there are still people around who would ask what’s wrong with me, what did I do to deserve this, how did I ‘ask for it’, etc. But the truth is, it’s business as usual. This situation reminds me of a job I had in my 20s at a kite factory, when a man working there was arrested for domestic violence, and the owner of the business bailed him out, invited him to live at his house, and promoted him to manager of the three women who worked in the factory. In part because my station was right next to his, I seemed to be his preferred target, and he started threatening to put cigarettes out in my face, made fists and got up real close to me, etc. We finally had a meeting about it, and the owner told me if I apologized to the manager, I could keep my job. Needless to say, I walked out that day. I still have trouble believing that’s true, even though I lived it.

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558. Well I’m a South African who worked and lived in several countries of the world ( so called Muslim countries and Christian countries).

     I totally agree with your article in many ways. Women everywhere I went struggle with what you are pointing out in this article.

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559. Reblogged this on and commented:
     JUST LISTEN! SO SIMPLE AND SO HARD.

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560. I have to say, I like this article. I agree with the arguments made even if not the absolute tone (minor issue, I get that you are making a point). I like that you provide a different perspective and some insight into what other women may be thinking.

     It makes me wonder, “Is this what women think when I say ‘good morning’ in passing?” I don’t understand all that women go through (don’t know if I ever could), but I’m not “that guy.” I’m married with my own family, don’t want anything from them. In fact, if stopped for a conversation after a “good morning” I’d be slightly surprised.

     I mention this because I get the “what do you want from me” look from women often enough to take note. It’s a bit irksome, to be honest. Some days, I won’t even bother to speak to women I don’t know (which occasionally makes women more nervous, when I pass without a word). I’ll pause here to mention that I am a 6’3” African American male. I have my own struggles, I’ll leave it at that.

     Intellectually, I feel like I should be more sensitive to this issue (and regarding my wife or female family members; I am quite concerned). Generally though, I don’t find myself as concerned as I might be. I’d like to have a free exchange with everyone I meet and hear their stories; given a chance I’ll do just that. However, when I feel I haven’t gotten a fair shake; it’s hard to be civil let alone reach out.

     I see the words, I don’t yet understand the story. I’d like to at some point. I can’t help feeling that the solution is a more common denominator; something more central to the human condition. Hopefully there is something that transcends gender/ethnicity/etc. If not that leaves us fighting our own private wars, in our own little bubbles.

     Hopefully this is not interpreted as dismissive, just another perspective.
     Either way, good read, you have me thinking.

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     1. I’ve been meaning to respond to your comment and I’m sorry for the delay. What you said here really stuck with me. First, I didn’t find your comment dismissive at all. I think it was thoughtful and comments like yours are one of the reasons I write about these issues. I want to have discussions with people who are genuinely interested in understanding each other.

        As for stopping to speak to women you encounter… I just had a discussion on Facebook with some friends regarding this. It’s all about intention and tone (for most of us.) A man saying “Hi” or “How are you” or even “You look really nice today” in a friendly tone is (in my opinion) a nice gesture. Who doesn’t want a friendly greeting or a nice compliment? When this happens to me, I smile and respond or say “thank you.” I don’t look at men as the enemy and I have been incredibly lucky to have wonderful relationships and friendships with men throughout my life. But here’s where things get tricky. Sometimes a seemingly friendly “Hello” turns into aggression (like my incident in the Home Depot parking lot that I mention in the post.) I said “Hi” in return and really didn’t think anything of it until I realized that he (and his friend) had turned to watch me continue walking and he started saying angry things, calling me a stuck up bitch for not stopping to chat further. Even though I smiled and said “Hello.” So, you see, there have been numerous times (for most women) where an initially friendly comment is followed by aggression or anger. I personally choose to assume that most guys are nice and hope for the best. But I completely understand and relate to why some women are on guard from the start.

        None of this is meant to divide us or separate us. I want to understand what men go through as they navigate the world and socializing as a man and dating and loving as a man. The same way I want men to have a better understanding of what women experience. I think understanding where each other is coming from is the first step to having a productive dialogue and subsequent action. On that note, one of the things that stuck with me about your comment was “I’m a 6’3″ African American male.” I don’t for one second assume that it’s easy to walk in your shoes. (Or any man’s shoes, for that matter.) A few years ago Quest Love wrote a beautiful post for The Huffington Post after Trayvon Martin’s death. He discussed the daily difficulties of walking around as a large, imposing black man. How he goes out of his way to look non-threatening. I cried when I read it and it pissed me off. You shouldn’t have to feel like you need to look less imposing or less threatening. YOu shouldn’t have to feel like a friendly “Hello” is received as a threat. THAT is part of the problem. These things I write about affect women, but they indirectly affect men in a negative way too. (with both sexism and racism) And I’m sorry that you’ve seen some of that in your own life. But I’m grateful that you are sensitive enough to read this, comment and engage in a way that is trying to make things better.

        Lastly, as to what you can do? Be understanding when your wife or daughters or friends experience these “small” aggressions. Be patient and don’t take it personally when women don’t want to receive your friendly gesture. And most importantly, call out men when you see bull shit happen. Hold them accountable. I don’t know if you read about Killer Mike breaking ties with his friend and publicist after he was accused of sexually harassing a female singer. This is the most recent example of a prominent and successful man doing so publicly that I can think of. And I thought it was powerful. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rapper-killer-mike-calls-on-men-to-fight-sexual-harassment-in-the-music-industry_us_56a0ea90e4b0404eb8f05b68

        I hope this clears some things up or answers some of your questions? If not, please let me know. I intend to write about this aspect of it, how men are affected by all of this, and if I’m not coming through clearly I’d really like to know.

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        1. Well first off, I do appreciate you responding. Your thoughts are clear to me, and thanks for ideas on what I can do to be better. The only thing I can’t stress enough is that both men and women want to be treated as a person first and foremost. Once that happens, solutions follow naturally. I’m looking forward to your next post.

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        2. Yes! I just wanted to chime in and agree that it’s a tone, an intention. Plenty of men of all sizes and races say hello to me on a daily basis and I feel no threat, only friendliness. But you can sense when there’s something more there (making a wild guess, I’m gonna say 20% of the time) and that’s when it makes you fearful. You sound like a friendly man with whom any of us would enjoy a nice chat. I love your concern.
           And I LOVE this article! Great job.

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     2. OK, one man can be a sexist, but why other women didn’t help us to clear the situation.
        I believe every woman is been in situation when shared that she is feel uncomfortable and her friends just rolling eyes.
        I was on good job, but almost full year I wore a fake ring and photoshopped pic with an actor for boyfriend in my wallet, just because most ladies into the office do not want to stand on the side of the work ethic, and to stop our supervisor sexist humor, they just waving a hand and said: “he speak this way only because she is single”, “is not big deal they both are single”, “you are free people, so what”. It’s so humiliating and makes you feel helpless.

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        1. Sorry it wasn’t reply, but new comment, I’m post it in wrong direction.

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561. This is a truly remarkable piece. I, as a man, do not typically objectify women. I’m not one of those “conquerors” that have slept with dozens of women. At 56 years old, I have only slept with six women. Two of them were my wives. One was my fiance. The other three were women I was in a long-standing relationship with. A lot of my friends are women. I worked with mostly women during my career as a paralegal. Also, I believe being a writer gives me a “default setting” of being kind and gentle and respectful. I think writer’s (true writers) don’t look down on others, abuse others, or objectify anyone because of their sexuality. What pisses me off most about this issue you’ve adeptly written about is the number of rapes in the military and on our college campuses. I am including a link to my post in April of last year regarding campus rape. I would love to hear your feedback.

     http://theaccidentalpoet.net/2015/04/22/dark-clouds-on-the-horizon-campus-rape/

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562. And if she moves away in an elevator when you get on, and you notice she has her keys between her fingers, don’t feel bad that she thinks you might assault her. Recognize that she has no way of knowing if you’re one of the good guys or one of the others.

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     1. This idea has some validity and we do need a societal change, a lot of them actually. But long-term how is this mindset helping? How is this mindset different from thinking “all Muslims are terrorists” and being afraid of them too? Are all white men uni-bombers? We could go on forever. I guess my point is, reaching out, when possible and as often as possible is a better strategy. One might find their fears reduced and some allies to boot.

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        1. Your argument is a non sequitur. Men use their power and access to resources to intimidate and control women (and other men according to many replies) at all levels. It’s called patriarchy and it is safe to say ALL men benefit from this system.
           And “reaching out” has traditionally been about women changing themselves – the way they dress, the way they walk, where they walk, where they live, what they drink, how they talk, etc etc etc. The point the author is making is to stop putting the burden on women.

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           1. Whoa, you assumed a lot there. First off, I never even mentioned women changing anything, you said that. Secondly, I was referring directly to my own experience with women, as mentioned in my previous post. There is no “burden” being placed on anyone group more than another. I’m suggesting we could all benefit from reaching out, by which I mean we could at least stop assuming that the “other” is out to harm you. While we’re at it, lets be real, the “bad actors” are a minority, so to assume that every man presents a danger is unrealistic and not very helpful.

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              1. The last time a woman could assume that “the other” wasn’t out to harm her was like never. And this isn’t just about physical harm. There is financial, social, reproductive, and even religious harm at play. You are not getting the social conditioning that happens; the messages that women confront every single day; the workplace innuendos from colleagues and superiors; the uncomfortable glances or comments from complete strangers. For a lot of women (I won’t put a % on it so it doesn’t cause myopia when you read this), confronting a guy does not fix the situation, it escalates it. And it’s not necessarily physical escalation. Sometimes it’s punishment – like not getting a well-deserved promotion, or getting a bad deal for a car or house repair, or even being treated like a child and dismissed; or being told “she asked for it”. If nearly 50% of women have faced some sort of sexual assault, there’s either a lot of bad actors out there or too many men being complicit and not denouncing this sick statistic.

              2. “The last time a woman could assume that “the other” wasn’t out to harm her was like never” – Your opinion, ill just agree to disagree.
                 As far as the rest of it, I don’t deny any of what you said, I don’t even want to minimize it. What I am saying, is that other people have their own struggles as well. I do know that I am not a part of your problems, so to assume that I am alienates me, and frankly leaves me less caring than before. I’m not pretending to understand all that women go through, but the writer and yourself are asking me to care about it. In return I’m asking you to reach out. (once again, by “reach out,” i simply mean don’t assume I’m a criminal/rapist/whatever. Is that really asking too much from anyone, regardless of what ever oppression they are facing? I personally don’t think so…

              3. I pretty much make contact whenever I can, with anybody, and it has been a good thing for me. I pretty much walk anywhere, day or night, in any neighborhood, in various countries, and people tend to treat me as one of ‘us.’ I fully agree that reaching out is the best thing we can do as humans.

              4. I can only assume you have never been “oppressed”. You are conditioning your “caring” on whether they alienate you or not, which shows the patriarchy from which you benefit. Why do you have a choice? Because you never have to prove that you actually aren’t part of the problem. Radical thought.
                 And the problem with me not assuming you’re a “bad guy” is the consequences I pay when I am wrong. Did you know that more than 1/3 of men in college would rape a woman if they could get away with it? So if 1/3 would do that, imagine how many more would do insidious shit that perpetuates my feelings I am expressing to you. And to reach out would mean all that social conditioning to which I was exposed is gone – I was taught not to walk alone, not to leave my place of work at night without an escort, to never get rowdy in a public place, to sit like a lady, to be demur and benevolent, to defer to the male colleague who interrupted me, to wear clothing that “doesn’t send the wrong message”, to not “put out” (like sexuality is only a guy’s thing). And the issue is if I break with this conditioning, if I break the mold, it starts the escalation cycle to which I referred in my previous response to you.
                 Essentially you are asking “me” to trust you when really men haven’t done anything to show they are trustworthy.

              5. If being black in america doesn’t count for anything, then i guess your right. I know nothing of oppression, not in the slightest. Aside from that, I think there are many women, who don’t agree with the practice of painting all of a group with a broad brush, even while admitting there is a problem. Even in this post you are making assumptions, that may apply to any number of interactions between women and men, but certainly not all. You are also mentioning things that, I have never even hinted at.
                 Further more, these consequences you talk about, I dont get. (Its clear you never read my previous post – I mentioned getting a weird look or reaction for just saying good morning in passing – at work!) Its not as if, by giving me the benefit of the doubt (and saying hello or good morning), you place yourself in danger. You dont get magically teleported to a dark alley with me. You dont end up in a bar with me force feeding you drinks.
                 At any rate, I wont argue anymore, if you can’t offer enough civility to not assume an automatic threat, then good luck with life. For those women who can see me as human and not a serial rapist, I support you wholeheartedly.

              6. I see you as human, and I appreciate your comments to this post. Let none of us forget that dehumanizing is considered one of the eight steps of genocide. I don’t think any of us can afford to dehumanize each other, and given the current state of police killings of black people, I think you have shown great compassion and restraint in your comments.

              7. If I think about it, I have never felt threatened by a black man like I have by a white or Hispanic guy. I have never ever felt any threat from Asian men. This says something about the power structure.
                 I also think being a black man and being a white woman in this society is very possibly similar (I wonder what perspective black women have).
                 And while not all white people are racists, I believe I have a responsibility to call it out when I see it, to demand equality for everyone, to help create a system that does not benefit or control one group over the other. I do that because I know that the system is rigged, not because a black person gave me their benefit of the doubt. For decades, black people have been subjected to police brutality. We should have been outraged when ANY citizen died in custody of a public servant. Sadly, it is ONLY because these incidences can be caught on video that white people actually believe the reality – otherwise the (white) system works in favor the police. So (here come A LOT of assumptions) you can’t tell me that when you get stopped by a cop, you give him the benefit of the doubt of being a good cop. I am certain “you” have learned to adhere to a strict code of behavior in order not to escalate the situation. It is very similar for women. Like I said, so often when a woman sticks up for herself (breaks the mold), things escalate because women are seen as objects to be controlled, not be in control. It’s about the power structure. Again, the escalation may not be rape, but getting called a bitch, cunt, slut, whore, or followed, or turned down for a promotion or paying more for a car, or whatever the outcome simply for being powerful is something that hits deep. It affects your being, your spirit. It makes you feel like an object, powerless. And just like the cop who gives a black guy an unwarranted ticket, that’s the intent, whether conscience or not…

              8. You are making this about YOU. “I’m not like that.”

                 “All men are not the same. Don’t generalize. ”

                 It invalidates a woman’s experiences.

                 Maybe “not all men” but YES ALL WOMEN experience this.

                 Your solution of “reaching out.” Just makes me feel like you missed a HUGE chunk of what was said.

                 Like, it just sailed right over your head.

              9. It sure does sound like you are saying, “if women would just not assume the worst of men and reach out and extend trust that will fix the gender realations and then women will be safe from these aggressions.

                 That is just not so, and if the opposite of what the author is trying to show you.

                 You DO seem to be suggesting that women change the way they interact, suggesting that somehow we are the ones responsible for the sexism towards us.

                 Also, you mentioned in your first post that you thought some of the things mentioned were minor.

                 I read NOTHING that seemed minor or blown out of proportion. Your attempt to minimize it shows that you still don’t get it.

                 You seem more sincere than most, but you are doing the things that most men do. Defend themselves, fail to believe that we are actually describing our experiences, etc.

                 Ask yourself- WHY is it so difficult for you to just believe that what a woman describes as her experience is accurate? What makes you assume that she must be exaggerating?

                 As A black man I believe you have experienced the share of oppression. But often times people can understand the oppression that they experience and not the oppression they don’t experience personally.

                 Just as many white women can see make privelege and still fail to see white privelege. I feel like you may be aware of white privelege but blind to make privelege.

                 What do you think might be an exaggeration? Holding your keys between your knuckles at night? I was taught this as a young woman in my early 20s, by an older friend. If we manage to escape fear for a while, society in some way will teach it to us. This is not made up or exaggerated. Ironically, I always felt LESS SAFE walking home alone at night AFTER I learned this technique than I did before!

                 If you think there are ANY exaggerations in the author’s account, you need to back up and examine why you don’t believe her- 1. You’ve been taught not to believe women’s own accounts of their experiences. And 2. It doesn’t seem real it frightening or whatever because it’s just not your experience.

                 I assure you, these things are true. Keep working until you believe them. Fully and completely. Then work some more until you *feel* them.

                 Women don’t feel unsafe because they unfairly stereotype men. We feel unsafe because we live in a world that is unsafe for us, and men constitute a huge part of that danger. It doesn’t matter if ask men rape. It matters that all women are evenly vulnerable to being raped (usually by a man). It doesn’t take “all men” it takes a system that makes it pretty easy for *any man* to do it and get away with it.

                 You really need to stop telling women that we need to reach out and stop generalizing, because that is not the cause is the problem. You are, purposely or not, flipping the blame for us being victimized onto us, and suggesting in actuality that we make ourselves MORE vulnerable.

                 It would be like a white person saying that if black people would just reach out and trust the cops and not assume they are all the same, that they would stop getting harassed and shot by them.

              10. bhowardthinks, please ignore that woman. She clearly has not dealt with her own difficulties in life with as much grace as yourself, and is simply too angry to hear anyone else out. It’s women like herself that give feminism a bad name, and scare off many well-meaning men like yourself.

                  I spent two hours trying to figure out how to make an account with wordpress simply so I could say that to you. – Turns out it was my own adblocker getting in the way. Go figure.

                  Anyway, I hope that you continue to try and listen and communicate with the women in your life about their struggles as women, and your own struggles as a black man. Neither of them are easy.

              11. I appreciate the thought. I’ll endeavour to keep moving forward.

              12. I really feel like I have to jump in here. bhowardthinks, you might say that ““The last time a woman could assume that “the other” wasn’t out to harm her was like never” – Your opinion, ill just agree to disagree.”. The thing is, as a man you have the privilege to assume that women do not have the collective experience that has been written about in this blog post. I do not know you or your experience but unless you are transgendered and have lived at least some of your life as a woman you cannot understand in a deep visceral way the gut wrenching fear that most if not all women live on a daily basis. I have personally experienced EVERYTHING in this blog post as have most of the women I know including my 23-year-old daughter. In fact, I just yesterday got a phone call from her because some guy came into her work and wanted to go out with her for a drink and would not take no for an answer. She told him she had a boyfriend. She told him that she wasn’t interested and still he persisted. She snuck out of work 15 minutes early and risked the ire of her boss and her job security just to avoid having to deal with this man. She phoned me on her way home to ask what she should have said. My daughter is not a “wilting flower” – she is a fierce, powerful young woman and still she didn’t know what to say. As for me, I was molested by my uncle when I was very little. I had a father who, even though he loved me, talked continually how women were not as good, not as logical, not as smart as men. My first boyfriend used to compare me negatively to all the women we saw on the street. My first husband raped me over and over for 6 years. On top of that I had all the experiences other women talk about – men cornering me, grabbing at me, forcing their attention on me even though I tried all kinds of ways to say “I don’t want to talk to you” nicely because that was what was taught. Over and over I had men rub up on me on crowded commuter trains. I’ve had men call me cow, slut, bitch, f’ng c*nt, when I have not done what they wanted. You might say, well, this is just your experience. But the thing is, it’s not. It is the experience of most women. I would say that all women have experienced some of it. And I consider that I live a life of privilege – I’m a white, well-educated women, middle-class, just retired from a professional career with a good pension living in the Global North. I know that I have a gifted life. I also know that women who do not have the same privileges that I do live what I have listed here and a lot worse. Do you know anything about female genital mutilation? Do you know about the systematic rape of women by the Jangaweed in the Sudan. Do you know anything about they way young women in south and southeast Asia are sold into sexual slavery? Have you read anything about the hundreds of young women in Nigeria who were kidnapped, how their schools were burned and their teachers were run off? Please, before dismissing a woman’s opinion by saying “I’ll agree to disagree”, try – really try – to think of how her life might be and why she might feel that she needs to be distrustful of men. She probably has some very good reasons. I know I do.

              13. Yeah right and I will assume it’s safe to leave my doors unlocked too. Not. Going. To. Happen.

              14. Although I agree with blowhard’s comment that the “bad actors” are a minority, the author of this piece was talking about the prevailing treatment of women over the years. Men have always been in charge, based in large part on the assumption that it’s just supposed to be that way. The author’s intent was not to paint all men as serial rapists. Blowhard’s replies truly show a lack of understanding or empathy for what men have put women through over many decades.

                  I would like to add, however, that a new survey of college students, one of the largest ever focusing on sexual assault and sexual misconduct, has reignited the debate over just how big a problem sexual assault on campus really is. Among female college students, 23% said they experienced some form of unwanted sexual contact — ranging from kissing to touching to rape, carried out by force or threat of force, or while they were incapacitated because of alcohol and drugs, according to the new survey by the Association of American Universities (AAU). Nearly 11% said the unwanted contact included penetration or oral sex.

                  The Huffington Post recently published a study indicating that nearly one in five college women were victims of rape or attempted rape during their freshmen year, with the most falling prey during their first three months on campus. The article refers to a study published May 20, 2015 in the Journal of Adolescent Health, and included results of a survey of 480 female freshmen at a university in upstate New York in 2010. The results confirm other research that has found about 20 percent of women are victimized by sexual assault in college. A Centers for Disease Control report last year showed 19.3 percent of women are victims of rape or attempted rape during their lifetimes.

                  How can women not be concerned about this issue? The statistics are alarming. Things are getting worse, not better.

              15. Let me clarify, since I kind of left it in a bad way before. If I don’t make any sense here I give up. I don’t mean to say that the author referred to anyone as a rapist. That comment was in response to one writer. Secondly, I think there is a difference between the birds eye statistics you offer and interactions with an individual. Despite our difference’s we should be able to talk to each other.
                  Responsibility – I get that men at large have perpetuated crimes against women. However, treating the individual man as if he’s responsible for the crimes of the “group” doesn’t add up for me. It’s similar to me holding all white people responsible for slavery, or assuming they are all KKK members until they have proven otherwise.
                  At best, this is a bad starting point for dialogue. In reference to my own experience; whats the harm in a simple good morning as you pass? At least it serves to build some civility between us.
                  Lastly, whats the take away for me? Give me three things I can/should do to make any difference at all.

              16. you sound like the kind of guy we want to be around, but there is no way for us to know if your cheerful “Good Morning” is going to either be A: just “Good Morning” or B: “Good Morning” , then “Why don’t you talk to me?”, then getting punched in the face or shot in the chest. Because the men who do this look just like the men who don’t, they smile, they may be well dressed or not, they act cheerful and friendly like they have an interest in me. but as soon as I don’t return the same level of interest, either because I didn’t notice, am in a hurry and can’t converse, don’t have an interest in talking to this person, or don’t want to date or give my phone number to this guy, I become a target of violence, and it happens in a flash. Some of these guys already have it in their mind what they are going to do to the next girl that rejects or fails to respond appropriately to them, and there is no warning or way to know that THIS guy is a psycho instead of being You. What can you do to make a difference? Be the man you are and want us to want to be around. Stop another guy if you see one bothering a girl and she seems uncomfortable, Confront a guy if he is catcalling a girl. Call the police if you see it happening. It may seem “silly” but it won’t be silly to the girl who doesn’t die that day, because you were a man and the other guy was a predator that you could stop. Don’t let your guy friends cat call someone. Be a Good Example for them. Teach your sons that girls don’t want to be catcalled but like to be appreciated as a person. Teach them to give a compliment without expecting something in return. That’s what a compliment is, in fact, a gift given freely without expectation of reciprocity. Teach them to compliment real things, not the girls body. “Excuse me Ma’am? I wanted to say that I like the dress you are wearing, It’s pretty” or ” Hey, that’s a cool hat you’ve got!” Not “Hey baby, Nice legs!” or “Hey, I’d like to get in bed with YOU!” We would appreciate that, and we will still say “Good Morning” to you as well.

              17. While I love the idea of being able to reach out and get to know anyone I feel you’re missing something essential in this instance. It may not be safe.
                  I had a friend for seven years who I loved, trusted, and respected. I would have trusted him with my life and after seven years of knowing him he raped two of my friends within three months of each other.
                  If I cannot know my then friend well enough after seven years to see his violation of my friends coming how can I really make the judgement call about a stranger I walk past on the street?
                  I get your wish that women not assume the worst in every man they encounter but it is dangerous not to do so and until that reality is changed it’s not practical to make another choice.
                  The threats of violence inherent in many of the encounters I face on a daily basis are my reality and I have to do my best to protect myself through preparedness and de-escalation and yes that probably shuts down many productive encounters but I’m just doing my best to stay safe.
                  All of that being said if a man in in front of me in line at the grocery store strikes up a pleasant conversation I’m not going to be unkind or assume nefarious intent but if, afterwards, he follows me into the parking lot you better believe I’m going to call my mom and talk to her on my way to the car so that there’s a witness of things escalate.

              18. Fair enough.

              19. We would love to do that… But, in most cases, it is better to be safe than sorry, and that’s just one sad part of the whole picture. ;/

     2. that just horrible, I’m just now starting to understand feminism. its a great movement. Women should never have to feel that way. Ill fight for yall

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563. This is amazing. I had to share it with my sister because just the other day we were talking about how difficult life is for women in Kenya. Every day I walk out of my house and I feel like I am in an episode of Mad Men because of how men treat us here. I didn’t know that women in other parts of the world are going through the same things we go through. And this is the 21st Century?? Thanks very very much for this article.

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564. I was just linked to you after posting a blog on the same topic, but you really captured the ‘de-escalating’ piece of the situation better than I could. I still beat myself up for silence, and reading this was a revelation.

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565. The only sentences that made sense to me are the last two:

     “Listen because nothing bad can ever come from listening. ….Just. Listen.”

     Because it sounds to me like God was guiding you right there. Why aren’t you listening to HIM? Coz 1400 years ago, He revealed in his guidance to mankind, how any woman can take ownership of her modesty without being subject to “play along” to get along.

     If you are interested, look for this spell-binding answer to all of your questions. It solves them. Honestly, nothing bad can ever come from listening.

     If you need help to point you in the right direction, I will.

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     1. The book you refer to is about patriarchy which pretty much sums up what the author of the article is talking about. And “modesty” is about men deciding how women are supposed to dress and act; the exact opposite of what she is talking about. The bible or any other so-called holy book is the last place I would look for any advice let alone about how to respect women.

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     2. IMy understanding is that Allah has no gender, so I’m not 100% sure what you are talking about, though “1400 years ago” points to the Quran, so I’m going with that.

        When I was in Iran I found out that “hijab” or “modest dress” refers to modest dress for both men and women as a way of keeping public space de-sexualized for all concerned. Though it’s true that I wouldn’t want to be ordered around in terms of what I wear, and Iran isn’t an example of the kind of society I’d like to live in (in part due to U.S. geopolitical games there in the past), I enjoyed being free of the subtle and not-so-subtle pressure to sexualize appearance in the name of Western ‘freedom.’ When in Iran, I played chess with a stranger in a hotel lobby and I don’t think I would have felt that relaxed about playing chess with a male stranger in the U.S. A big difference between that and the U.S. was he and I were both respecting the rules of Islamic public space. Something very different can happen when I’m playing by those rules in America and men are not.

        It might also be of interest to consider that the Ka’aba that Muslims face during prayer, was supposedly built by Adam and Eve when they realized the masculine principle was lost without the feminine principle and vice versa, So much tragic loss in the whole tradition of the people of the Book, and it pains me that the Bible and the Quran can be used to perp agendas that cause harm and suffering to women.

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     3. Oh fuck off !

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        1. Amen!

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566. For those of you who doubt, who think “men got it bad too”, I came across this article this morning. It sheds light on women who don’t deescalate.
     http://mic.com/articles/135394/14-women-were-brutally-attacked-for-rejecting-men-why-arent-we-talking-about-it#.eX1ViTSAP

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     1. This one too.
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/if-you-dont-take-womens-harassment-seriously-you-dont-want-to-understand-the-problem_b_9082952.html

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     2. Hey, after reading loads of replies you made. I’m assuming that you nearly hate men? I’m not asking but I’m also going to assume you do have a very valid and just reason and I accept That your 100% correct in your decision.

        I personally USE to hate females, so much so I’ve had myself castrated (long story). I was never violent against them or even abusive, was always to scared to be or do any of that. Now after my castration, I’m not as worried and have no need for a female in any way shape or form and just find females attitudes annoying. So I’m definitely not of any harm, not interested in any contact what so ever and most importantly I have a idea what it’s like to hate the opposite sex just like you do.

        Up to you to view this however you wish, I’m not sure venting your anger on a website is constructive,especially when you write stuff in such a manor that will make a male get offended and possibly give them more “fuel” to carry on doing exactly what you don’t think they should be doing. Possibly professional help could be beneficial for you?

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        1. You’re the one who needs professional help !

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           1. Why? He choose to do what he did as an adult and isn’t harming anyone. Is it because you personally disagree? Even though you hate all men

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567. I was routed here by Google under the search, women don’t know what men go through. Interesting it took me to the other gender, but I dove. After all I’m here to grow. I’m here actually, online to find sanity and peace of mind primarily in the moment right now just from numerous minor chronic relational frustrations. It seems that’s something we share. So though I’ve trolled before, I didn’t come here to troll but to take away value. I didn’t come here to empathise either btw or be a Mr. Rogers hero. I came here to take away value for myself in relating to people and understanding why they are that way, and take comfort in the fact that everyone faces obstacles.

     Alright, it was a good reminder of things I broadly understand about what women go through. I recognize more than ever that most American women take these things very serious, and are easily offended by any minimization. In communicating with such women, and I mean no disrespect, it is generally wise to keep ones mouth shut if one doesn’t have anything positive to say if you want her to like you. One could call this an uptight personality, and I prefer them who are not so uptight, but if they indeed face these fears and hassels every day I could see how it could add up.

     I don’t think thats the main problem though. When s girl has high interest in a man, she will walk over hot coals to get to him. I thought long ago an open gender dialogue would be the way to go but now I’m not so sure. We do have a crisis I think in our generation.

     Am I mansplaining? I’m only trying to give my perspective.

     I consider myself a man with goodwill to women, a protector of noble, kind honest women actually, but also a giver of sensual pleasures when consensual. Harassment or whatnot is the last thing on my mind, but I am certain numerous times women have taken things the wrong way. Yes I was born and grew up in the US and have travelled to many parts of the world and the sadfact is I struggle here more than anywhere feeling comfortable to be open and honest around women without them taking it wrong. If I can’t be at least somewhat open, what do I want with a person. Now I see this originates in their accumulated stress and fear, but I love women and want to protect those I consider if character. Every woman is eligible to be such a one. It starts with honesty, and if you’re a slut, be a discrete, and self funding slut ;). Anyway that said, I, and I think men in general have an image problem here in the US.

     There are things women don’t understand about what men go through daily, but I don’t think they care. I didn’t come here to change the subject though or even make points but to take value.

     My purpose investing time in this piece is to grow as a man, for the sake of such things as peace and pleasure in my life and the world. Note I did not day for the sake of being a better nice guy who is always there for her when she needs a tissue. Lol.

     Maybe it’s sick for us to focus on what’s bad I’m the world, and we should give more thought to how we can have pleasure. Healthy sustainable pleasure, but pleasure nonetheless. Women are strong. I know some women who don’t go through this type of thing, even in America, but like a duck through water. Maybe it’s something in their personality that can rebuff such advances from men, or put down or zingers, but they exist, and it might be good to model them.

     Not here to lecture, here to learn. Here to adapt, to the current culture of things, to have some kind of road map, to be able to avoid unnecessary pain of doing or saying the wrong thing. Thanks for your piece.

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     1. “I am only trying to give my perspective.”

        Am I mansplaining? Yes.

        Stop trying to give your perspective. You ARE effectively saying, “women you are looking at this ask wrong.”

        “Not to lecture but to learn.”

        You contradict yourself at every turn.

        “I know women who don’t experience this, they just sail through it like a duck through water. ”

        This sentence tells me every thing in this around went over your head.

        Also, great job listing your good fit credentials. I’m sure you are “not like other men” but you have done every single thing we women expect a man to do.

        You are, in every way attempting to minimize our situation, while claiming to want to understand.

        You are talking out of both sides of your mouth!

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        1. Correction

           “All wrong” not ask wrong

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     2. Bossnotbossyblog nailed it but I will add that the fact that you only think women whose behaviour you approve of deserve protection speaks volumes. All human beings (and animals) deserve to not be abused and be protected or aided when experiencing abuse, regardless of whether we agree with their life choices.

        Here’s lesson number 1, don’t refer to ANY woman as a “slut’ ! The fact that you do shows you have a long way to go. The fact thst other women use this term too shows how much women can get caught up in seeking men’s approval.

        We shouldn’t need your approval to get your support when we’re being harrassed or attacked. If you truly want to change your relationship with women, start there.

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568. Reblogged this on Bitten by travel bug and commented:
     Came across this post on Women`s day ….all the things that are left unsaid, beautifully put together in depth.

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569. This texts resonates on so many levels. I am Italian, sexism is something very “subtle” and most people don’t admit there is any. I was 10,5 years old when a man put his hand on my crotch the first time. He was my guitar teacher. I was 13 and then 14 when it happened again. I was travelling in the subway with my classmates during a journey to Milan. I don’t recall doing anything special to attract attention. I don’t know how it works for men but women learn very early they are potentially in danger all the time.
     If you never mentioned it in your blog I would like to mention the Brazilian hashtag #PrimeiroAssedio https://twitter.com/search?q=%23PrimeiroAssedio You may read the original story here
     http://www.brasilpost.com.br/carol-patrocinio/quando-uma-menina-de-12-a_b_8348388.html

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     1. I think I was 7 or 8 the first time a guy took my hand and put it on his crotch.

        This isn’t even unusual. That’s the horrible thing about it.

        I had SEVERAL inappropriate experiences at that age.

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570. Well I haven’t read all the comments but the usual response when we DO tell them is.

     * That doesn’t happen.
     * It doesn’t happen that often/isn’t that bad.
     * You’re overreacting.
     * It’s your fault because of how you dress/act/respond.
     * It doesn’t matter if you just brush it off.
     * You just need to learn to stand up for yourself (or ignore it)
     * It must be really bad for men to think you are hot.
     * But you really secretly like it don’t you?
     * You just want attention/to play the victim.
     * First world problems. You think you got it bad? Look at how women are treated in Afghanistan.
     * I wish I could be objectified.
     * Not All Men are like that!

     Etc.

     Letting them know if not the answer. They don’t listen. They don’t hear.

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571. Everything that I have read in this article as well as the comments has been cogent and enlightening. But i feel that what Bhowardthinks said earlier has been minimized. Thinking that all men are rapists and a threat is EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC. As a black man such thinking is what gets me stopped by police while walking, held at gun point in back of my own house without explanation or apology. I’m not trying to minimize or compare threats but at some point you have to chose whether you’ll acquiesce to fear or rise above it. And this is completely separate from acknowledging and addressing the very real problems of misogyny and sexual violence perpetrated towards women. …. As black man the ability for non-black people, yes including women, to see me as something other than a threat is a matter of life and death. … A catcall is inappropriate and should be condemned but let’s not forget that many black men were lynched … most famously Emmett Till, for the alleged threat they posed to women, white women specifically. You could literally be castrated for making eye contact. This perception of black (and many other non-white) men persists to this day. Perpetuating the thinking that any one group is to be uniformly considered a threat will and has led society down a very dark and dangerous road. — So while I understand and appreciate the alarm reflexive fear based decision making rare solves social problems, it generally makes it worse. So yes all men need to step up and confront misogyny, harassment, etc. and believe and appreciate the experiences of our female family, friends, and even strangers … But the other side of that coin is we can’t walk around being afraid of entire groups from the jump …That’s bigotry and a whole host of other “isms” even when it’s for an ostensibly useful purpose. I’m not asking to feel comfortable with the terms of the feminist struggle … But i do ask that you realize that this shit doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Your reflexive fear could very easily get me killed or imprisoned. Just as any indifference and complicity on my part could result in similarly sever consequences for any number of women.

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     1. I want to be very, very clear. I do not look at all men as threats of any kind. I rarely look at any man as a threat. And perhaps I was too nuanced and didn’t make it clear in my writing. When the man passed by me in the Home Depot parking lot, he said “Hi.” I said “Hello.” I was not one bit concerned and I smiled as I said it. I did not view him as a threat until I heard him call me a bitch and berate me for not stopping to talk further. THOSE are the kinds of incidences I’m referring to. I can be out, by myself, and speak to a stranger. I can have nice conversations and this happens frequently, with men I don’t know. I am not threatened or worried. Am I on guard if I’m leaving a restaurant at night by myself and it’s dark in the parking lot and no one’s around? Yes. I hold my keys with my knuckles and I am vigilant. But the thought that you took this to mean that I am generally afraid of men or look at all men as threats is extremely upsetting to me, both as a woman and a writer. I love men. And I don’t want that to sound silly, but I have always had great friendships with boys and men throughout my life. I have men who have been my closest confidants. I make friends with men (and women) very easily. Your comment makes me feel like I failed in making my point clearly.

        The whole point of the post was to point out how pervasive it is over a woman’s life time. The little comments that come from creepy guys- NOT a nice guy giving a compliment. The two are very different, believe me. A compliment from a man is something I always appreciate. But those creepy comments, the kind not meant to brighten a woman’s day or make her feel nice, the ones that are overtly sexual and imply a kind of ownership and control over a woman’s body, those comments happen enough times and some times we call them out and some times (if we don’t feel safe) we walk by and ignore it. And all the times we are groped. Pursued after we said NO very clearly. These things can happen over a lifetime and become “normal” and it still doesn’t make us look at all men as threats. Sigh… I’m worried I’m still not coming across clearly. And I’ve considered writing a follow up to clear up this misconception that some have taken from my post. I have a son. I don’t want him to grow up in a world where men are demonized or made out to be dangerous. I have written many posts advocating for men. I’m truly concerned with how our society and the cultural norms we operate within affect men, women, people of all races and religions. I’m concerned with social injustice to ANYONE. I hope this clears that up. If not, please respond and let me know.

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        1. No, you DO NOT need to write a follow up. The issue is that people are trying to tuck this very uncomfortable reality into a nice, neat category of nice guys versus creepy guys. But lets face it – nice guys can very often turn into creepy guys. I recently requested help from an ATT technician who was sitting in his truck in the neighborhood. It was a random request because we were having so much trouble with getting Internet access. We exchanged information and he then went the extra mile to assist me by escalating the problem to people beyond “customer service”. A week later, he texted me (at 7:50pm) to ask if I had gotten resolution. I was surprised with the follow up but wanted to be nice so I texted him back – and when I said “yes”, I also shared with him when the service was going to be installed – in a way to show/prove that his help resolved our problem. Well, a day before installation, he texted me and said “hey, go figure, I am going to be the installing technician.” I felt that he had purposely requested the install and it made me feel very uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable enough to go to our neighbor and ask him to casually drop by during the install time. Why? Because the technician had been nice, he had done me a favor, and when guys go out of their way for a woman, very often, they feel owed. I could be totally wrong, but guess what, how do you know the difference and still remain safe? Many women don’t live to tell this kind of story. And THIS is the dynamic, the nuance that directs our actions, our responses, our thoughts, our opinions and our fears. But guess what? People will blame me for responding nicely to a text; for telling him the install date; for “leading him on” so that he would do the install; for being by myself in a house with a complete stranger; for having even asked him to help at all. They won’t look at HIS actions or tell him to redirect his intentions.

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           1. Yes, you’ll get blamed for being too nice, should something happen to you. And you’ll get blamed for being paranoid or bitter or thinking all men are rapists if you react as you did.

              You can’t really win, can you? That’s the double bind that women are almost always in.

              All you can do is be as cautious as YOU feel you need to be, and hopefully stay alive and unvictimized.

              Thank you so much for your comments about how the “nice guy” often turns out not so nice. Important.

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        2. Women are always accused of demonizing men when they stand up against mysogyny. Whether we are or are not.

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        3. I have to agree with MAC67 & bossnotbossy; the problem here isn’t you, you’re not failing to be clear enough… there’s just something about this kind of topic where people*, even careful thinkers who pride themselves on being sure that they understand what’s presented before responding, just don’t bother to actually read what’s written. Sure, their eyes might track back and forth across the words, but all they seem to be able to take from it is, “all men are evil, and I’m afraid,” even though that’s neither in the text nor the subtext. Laurie Penny dedicated a chapter in one of her books to expressing so much compassion to those of us who’re stifled by the expectations of masculinity that it brought me to tears, but she’s still called out for misandry on a regular basis.
           I’m sure Statamind is fully aware of this on the matter of racism. Everyone who has called you out for man-hating is likely aware of it in at least one area: the socialists whose criticisms of our modern economic systems are misrepresented as mere jealousy and laziness; the secularists whose criticisms of religious sectarianism in governments are misrepresented as their trying to ban religion… etc. They may be adept in spotting it in their own pet topic(s), but it never seems to occur to them that they might also be susceptible to it for some reason, so they never bother to develop defences against the exact same failures of reason in themselves, and there’s really very little that you can do to get through to them until they do. (No, person about to angrily reply to this, I’m not claiming that feminists are in any way perfect or immune to that flaw – there’s a reason that terms like “white feminism” exist, and I’m pretty sure this is it. I’m also not claiming to be immune to it myself.)

           Err, so anyway, the point is that I don’t think you need to write a follow up either. That doesn’t mean I think you shouldn’t because, hey, you never know, a differently worded article might not trigger the same “oh no, misandry!” vision filter for all of the same people that this one does, and it’s always worth approaching the same topic from different angles at different times, but you didn’t fail to be clear enough in your original post.

           *#notallpeople(butmostpeople(okactuallyprobablyallpeople))

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     2. Instead of replacing “all men” with “black men” or “Muslims”, try replacing the word woman/women with black men or “Muslims”.

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572. There’s so many comments, I can’t find if I’ve mentioned some of this before: I’ve been following the comments on this while I’ve been going through leaving an organization devoted to cultural transformation and a future of ‘just’ societies. There was a guy there who was a bit odd, and other people kind of shunned him, and being the underdog lover I am, I befriended him and was even flirtatious with him now and then. The organization met in person several times a year, so it wasn’t a daily thing, as we all traveled from different states.

     When I spoke to this guy about his ongoing wrist slaps about behaving inappropriately with women, especially given his stated hatred of women on numerous occasions with me (except for me, of course) he started threatening me. When I attempted to extricate myself, he wrote an email to both me and the head of the organization about his feelings of “murderous rage” and vivid, explicit fantasies of deadly physical harm towards me. The head of the organization and I discussed this over email for about six weeks in an increasingly bizarre exchange as he told me to go to therapy and apologize to the guy if I had said anything negative about him to anyone else.

     It was at that point we found out he hadn’t read the email, and he suddenly freaked out that he might be in danger of losing his license (he’s a licensed psychologist.) Things went from bad to worse as the head of the organization insisted on labeling it my personal problem, and ordered me to ‘work it out’ with the guy, who told me he wouldn’t threaten me anymore as long as I never said anything that he might interpret as criticism, because of the shame/rage cycles associated with his disorganized attachment disorder and masochist depressive narcissism, so if I said anything that he interpreted as criticism, it was actually my violence, not his, that came out as his rage, because he is nothing but gentle, kind and caring and I am cruel. He seemed rather benevolent about explaining this to me.

     I’m not hating on him for being a broken person. What continually blows my mind is that there is awareness among people that he has some kind of mental health issue, and he has gotten numerous wrist slaps about his behavior. I’m a 61 year old mother of two grown sons, who has no wrist slaps in her history with this organization. Yet, when that initial email happened, the head of the organization dismissed my concerns until he found out he was implicated — and I had done nothing to earn that lack of trust (except being a woman and being flirtatiously friendly with this guy on occasion.) I’m profoundly saddened that even within an organization whose mission statement contains all kinds of rah-rah about a just future, there’s a marked resistance to examining unconscious perping of this kind of injustice. I wrote to the board about two months ago and more recently an exit letter to the community, and have gotten some private words of support, I have heard nothing from leadership.

     So, thanks to all of you who are discussing this, as following this has been a friend to me while I navigate something that feels like a personal twilight zone, even though it’s real, insidious and part of our culture. I’d hardly be able to believe it if it hadn’t happened to me, and as I’ve gone through this experience, the threats are much less painful in my mind — I always knew the guy was unstable — than the responses about the threats. I made my choices based on some kind of bubble that at 61 I had left the harrassments of my 20s far behind, and that in an organization of shared values it was safe to reach out to someone who had personality problems.

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573. I’ve never felt the need to “de-escalate” a situation with a man. This is pure anti-man psychosis. I know many women who have no fear of men and any woman who FEARS men (in general) needs to get psychiatric help! The so-called “Women’s Studies” movement that started in the 70s has done nothing to help women and has only worsened the anti-man feelings of the (antiquated and nonsensical) “women’s liberation movement” of the late 60s.
     Rape culture my butt!

     Reply

     1. “It doesn’t happen to me” doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Isn’t it the least bit meaningful that this is a regular part of so many women’s lives and that it’s (probably) not ok for any of them?

        Stop taking such a myopic view – it’s not JUST work places, it’s not JUST streets, it’s not JUST bars etc. And it’s ordinary men, from ordinary walks of life, who do it when they know they can get away with it.

        It just happened last week. I went out for a run along a pipeline trail – it is very wide and sits between residential neighborhoods whose backyards butt into it. It was after dinner and the weather was looking a little ominous (like it was going to rain), so no one was around. But as I approached one of the hills, a man was walking down on the other side. As I continued up, he crossed over onto “my” side of the path. My first thought was “god dammit why is he making me break my pace to avoid him?” Then my body went into flight mode; “will he say something?” “what should I say” “is he going to jeer at me?” “how far could my scream carry?” “can I slug him hard enough?” “what do I do if he grabs me?”
        Nothing happened but how would I know? He crossed over to get in my way. In the animal kingdom, that would be a predatory act, kind of like peeing on territory.

        “Society” would say, “why did you run by yourself?”; “why did you run during a time when no one else was around?”; “why didn’t you just keep running straight into him”; why didn’t you go a different direction?; “Nothing happened, what’s the big deal?”; “Just say hi to him”; “Well, did you saaayy anything to him?”; “I would have said something to him.” etc etc etc

        Very few would ask, “what the hell was a guy thinking to cross over into your path?” So I deescalated – I crossed over, didn’t make eye-contact with him and held my breath until I knew he wasn’t coming back behind me. Gee, what a great run. Glad the problem is all in my head.

        Reply

        1. And yes we do need at least psychological help, and those that can afford therapy generally get it. I’m genuinely glad that you haven’t experienced sexual violence, but please show some sensitivity and respect for your sisters that have.

           Reply

     2. My friend was raped in the butt. I’ve been sexually harrased since the age of 10 and have survived rape more than once. I was born with big blue eyes and silver blonde hair. I never grew breasts until I had my first child but that never stopped boys or men grabbing at what I had or for my crotch or bottom instead. Other girls experience this kind of harrassment due to growing larger breasts that attract unwanted attention, but sometimes you’re victimised because of intellectual disability, like another young woman I know.

        I’m overweight and middle aged and one of my son’s friends recently tried to booty call me ! Sometimes the behaviour is just disappointing or annoying but sometimes its a precursor to much worse.

        Maybe you got married young and didn’t work much outside of the home, or put on weight younger than I did, so you only get called a pig like I do now. Maybe you never ventured out without a male escort, to nightclub distriicts late at night when men are drunk and so you haven’t experienced that either.

        Whatever the reason you haven’t experienced what so many of us have and are sharing here, it doesn’t give you the right to deny our experiences.

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574. Ms. Gretchen,
     Thank you so much for what you have written here. It touched me deeply, and as a woman I’ve experienced virtually all of the scenarios you’ve listed above, as has virtually every woman I know. Beautifully and articulately written.

     thank you,
     Ariadny

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575. Reblogged this on Citizen Roe and commented:
     Read this again today. Because it is damn sure worth another reading.

     Reply

576. Where do the people in your circles work? You describe things that just aren’t true in my circles with respect on at work experiences – yet, it is portrayed as though it is an experience common to all women. I’ve been a manager for over 15 years and if butt patting were to occur in any of my workplaces, I am pretty confident it would result in a trip to HR and disciplinary action. Even a false accusation against a long term employee with no history of such behavior an accusation would result in immediate disciplinary action, future monitoring, and a big hit to the accused’s reputation limiting their future options at the company at a minimum. I receive training at least once per year on these topics that should just be common sense of how to treat people. This isn’t limited to where I work, even McDonalds can and has been sued for sexual harassment and takes steps to avoid it. There are real repercussions that most employers/business owners fear. Moreover, false claims can easily cost thousands of dollars in legal costs just to defend. I think part of why you find people don’t identify with what you are saying is that it just isn’t consistent with their experiences or the experiences of those close to them.

     Reply

     1. Not every company has an HR dept. You’re going to have to take the word of millions of women on this, that these things happen. Check out #WhenIWas on Twitter. My waitressing job where my boss kissed me? It was owned by his best friend who was no better and had hit on other waitresses himself.

        Reply

        1. If you report stuff you are seen as a trouble maker and are sometimes then targetted by the other males. Either sexual harrassment or just bullying.
           Sometimes its the boss who is doing it, and that creates a whole culture of harrasment of women workers.

           There is definitely a trickle down effect so your attitude is very important, but if you’re not spending time making it very clear to your employees that bullying and sexual harrassment will not be tolerated, it will go on and women won’t report it.

           Reply

     2. And by the way, scores of women identified exactly with what I was saying in this post. It has been viewed here alone over 2 million times, published in 7 different languages that I’m aware of, on large sites (Huffington Post published it in 6 languages alone.) I have watched the comments, the reblogs, the tweets and FaceBook shares and comments from women who identify. I’ve received personal messages from many. A post doesn’t get that widespread when no one relates. I’m not saying this to be snarky, I just really want you to understand that I didn’t make this up, this is a very real every day thing that happens all over the world and it usually starts once we hit puberty. In fact, that’s when it’s most intense. I hope you open your mind to this because I’m sure there are women in your life, whether it’s relatives or friends or coworkers who have run up against this type of thing. Who’ve had to “de-escalate” for a number of reasons. The more we are aware of it, the easier it will be for us to stop it. Our daughters (I don’t know if you have any, but I have two) need to know that this is a thing and they need to have the tools to feel safe and/or speak up. Sometimes speaking up puts your safety in jeapardy. But this is something we all need to recognize if we truly want to change it. Thank you for taking the time to comment and share your perspective. I truly appreciate it and welcome it. And appreciate you doing it respectfully (I say that because some of the comments got pretty ugly and hateful)

        Reply

577. Reblogged this on Temporary Guests of My Life – Kimmi Madeline.

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578. Hi there would you mind letting me know which hosting company
     you’re using? I’ve loaded your blog in 3 completely different web browsers and I must say this blog loads a
     lot quicker then most. Can you recommend a good
     internet hosting provider at a fair price? Cheers, I appreciate it!

     Reply

579. But the tendency to de-escalate and compromise is why women are SUPERIOR to men, the ability to apply compassion and sacrifice for the greater good is the lesson that women are supposed to teach men. The answer to the question “Is this that big of a deal is simply, “Yes”. It is correct, they don’t get it, that means it’s your evolutionary duty to educate them.

     The problem is that everyone is looking at the tree in front of them that nourishes them and they try to protect their tree, and since their tree is the most important to them and they don’t really care about anybody else’s tree. The issue to address is that their tree is in a forest where every tree is as important as the next to maintain the forest. If you allow one tree to be diseased, you place the entire forest at risk.

     Right now we live in a forest with multiple diseases and infestations, and everybody is trying to treat their tree whatever means they choose, and with it all mixed together is just making the situation more toxic.

     The only way to assure the survival of individual trees is when everyone cooperates to treat the entire forest.

     If you want to fix your problem, you have to be willing to fix everyone’s problem, and you start that by creating this:
     https://1drv.ms/p/s!AoXPlyjz_r8dgUyQUT1f5PUmwvTK

     Women have been fighting for the wrong thing for far too long, it’s all just a trap to make you ineffective.

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580. So this is what feminism is about now, not about economic or political equality or revolution or anything of the sort. It’s just that women are small and weak and “vulnerable”(males of course are never vulnerable) and they’re all sweet and innocent and then terrible bad men come along and “sexualize” them. Yes indeed men often look at women in a sexual way, and guess what women look at men in a sexual way, and sometimes men look at men in a sexual way and women look at women in a sexual way and when boys grow up this can be rather awkward and uncomfortable for them too, and boys get sexually abused all the time. So cry me a river middle class white lady, maybe the naysayers have a point. If only we could all just stay little innocent asexual children forever, like the Teletubbies, is that what todays feminists want?

     Reply

581. Reblogged this on If You Give a Girl a Textbook… and commented:
     This is an amazing perspective that I feel truly captures the lifelong struggles we deal with as women. I identify with this very strongly, and it’s definitely worth the read.

     Reply

582. Reblogged this on The Sleeping Reading Beauty and commented:
     Yes, Listen!

     Great post.

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583. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS. dealing w a sexual harassment case at work involving many women and I sent this to them. I was the whistler blower. It did not happen to me. It I couldn’t handle seeing more of my friends treated poorly.

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584. Reblogged this on I Will Not Live in Vain and commented:
     So very accurate to how I feel… and feared I couldn’t quite put into words…

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585. Reblogged this on Coalition of the Brave.

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586. Reblogged this on The Melodramatic Confessions of Carla Louise.

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587. This was just amazing to read! I cannot even tell you what this meant to me reading through this <3

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588. I agree with you totally. This was such a powerful post, and you covered EVERYTHING. You write so well.

     For me… it’s a little different. If I tell you something: will you not judge me? I’ve never had my bum pinched. I’ve never been wolf whistled. No one’s ever asked me a drink or tried to talk to me in a bar. I’ve never have to lie and say I have a boyfriend (I don’t.) No one’s ever stared at my breasts. No supervisor has ever tapped me on the ass, no barista has held my change out so I have to reach over him. No one has ever offered to have ‘friends with benefits’ with me. I’ve never been cat-called, made uncomfortable. I’ve never even felt in danger.

     Now these all sounds like good things. What’s entirely ironic is the LACK of sexism toward me has made me feel unfeminine. Although this things are awful, I crave them. And I’m ashamed to say that because for so many people these are huge problems in their lives, yet I WANT them to happen. What’s wrong with me?

     I feel so little like a women that a little sexism would make me feel more female. Even if it was negative. How awful and backwards is that?

     Anyway, a very well written and engaging post. Thank you.

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589. Reblogged this on Writing Radiation.

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590. Much of what you say makes sense. At the same time, it sounds like your opinion of the majority of men is extremely low.
     I hear you though; as a guy, there have been many times that I’ve witnessed other guys give women the laser beam “checkout stare”, and I’ve always considered it inappropriate, unless they were actually trying to make EYE CONTACT, versus simply staring open-mouthed at a woman’s body. Obviously, people will notice one another. Women will encounter guys that they find attractive, and they might even STARE for a prolonged amount of time; that happens too.
     But I understand that many women have to put up with these situations day in and day out, and a predatory male with a degenerate attitude could easily be a potential rapist. Yet, guys who don’t have an inappropriate habit of lewd staring are getting screwed over by those that do. And that goes for any other AGGRESSIVE, threatening or rude or even criminal behaviors that you could possibly name: “getting up in a woman’s space”, clearly sexual types of inappropriate touching/ physical contact, “cat calls”, “wolf whistles”, “checking out” girls that are obviously VERY YOUNG, and on, and on, and on. And that’s to say nothing of the aggregious crimes like rape, pedophilia, abduction, and so on.
     I gotta say though, as someone who engages in NONE of those behaviors, I’ve about FREAKING HAD IT!!! On the one end, there’s the scores and scores and scores of guys that give all men a bad reputation, or even a terrible one. Then of course, there are the scores and scores and scores of women that don’t like men, distrust men, bash men, hate men, make a mockery of the male species, and otherwise attack or seek to destroy men. As someone who is not part of the “herd” of men that act in the ways that you listed in your article, (the lewd stares, “checking out” little girls or teens, aggressive conversation tactics, inappropriate touching, swearing at women because they won’t talk to/go out with you, etc.), I’m REALLY SICK AND TIRED of getting caught in the crossfire.

     Reply

     1. Ugh. Rick, you were almost there. And then you used the term “getting caught in the crossfire”. That felt like you placed legitimacy in the behaviors by creating “sides” to be watched like a football game. If there is anything this election has taught us is that we need men to step up and repudiate this behavior and evolve their way of thinking about it. That does not condemn you and wrap you into the arms of “being at fault”. But we need men (and women) to stop seeing these behaviors as mis-placed sexual advances and male entitlement and seen them instead as violence and micro-aggressions meant to intimidate and “keep women in their place.” You may not do any of these things but you are still part of a system that benefits from it; you are more likely to get the job, the promotion, the choice to walk alone, to be alone with someone in a room, office, elevator, etc etc; you are less like be sold into sex slavery; less likely to be raped or murdered by a partner, because men see women are as sexual accessories. I’m glad that you “have had it”. I have too.

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591. Reblogged this on and commented:
     A must read!

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592. ♡ this article so much, I think I’ve read it about 5 times now and I keep going back to it, as well as sharing it with others

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593. Thanks for writing this article and giving me and many more men like myself a insight to issues we normally wouldn’t realize exsisted. The other night it finally clicked, I know it’s not much but the other night at the pub, I went in to play the pokies where I noticed a girl following me in and selected her ideal machine which by coincidence was close to me (we were the only 2 there) she keeped looking at me. I then remembered this article you wrote and realized there was every chance she was feeling at very least uncomfortable being the only other person in the same room as me and so I chose to stop playing and walked away back to the bar. Now I realize what every female gos through I will definitely put more effort into little jestors like this one. I know it’s not much but I’m guessing I’m not the only male that’s read this article and hopefully not the only one that is making little jestors like this one. Thanks 😃

     Reply

     1. Umm, obiously she was trying to get noticed??.Why else would she follow you in?? If she was afraid SHE WOULD NOT OF FOLLOWED!!! And you completely ignored her??? You IDIOT!!! Shame on you

        Reply

        1. He sounds intelligent enough to discern what kind of looks she was giving him. Following him in just means they were walking the same way but he was first through the entrance. If she was truly interested she would have caught up with him at the bar.

           Ffs please stop calling men idiots when they are actually trying to listen and understand. We need as many allies as we can get. You’re perpetuating a myth that fuels the kind of behaviour this article is about.

           Reply

           1. Rosie is either 1) a guy or 2) 17 years old.

              Reply

              1. Age makes someone’s thoughts less relevant? Isn’t that some kind of inequality/prejudice?

           2. By a strange coincidence the obviously not so life experienced Rosie was right. This girl I was referring to is now my girlfriend, some weeks later she ended up getting her freind to ask me on a date in her behalf.

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           3. Trish choosing not to reply after been proven wrong?

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594. Thank you very much for writing this. I am continents away from you, living in a country where rape is pretty common, among everything else that puts me on my constant guard. I can relate to every word in this post. EVERY GODDAMN SINGLE WORD.

     Reply

     1. I wrote another comment with a couple of links to related posts of mine, which are probably awaiting your moderation….
        FYI.

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595. This is one of the best articles I’ve ever come across on this topic. You summed up everything I experience on a daily basis but can’t communicate properly to the men in my life without them telling me I’m overreacting. Thank you for this.

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596. Reblogged this on The Orenda.

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597. If you are hanging around with a lot of men who think having your ass grabbed or feeling unsafe are topics to be minimized, you are hanging with the wrong crowd. None of the men I hang with consider that frivolous.

     If I could say one thing: if you want men to listen, don’t be counted among those beating men over the head with the “war against women”–especially when that BS that includes changing “manhole covers” to “personnel access ports, etc”. It’s one really good way to get good men to stop listening to ANYTHING further. Ladies, when we tune you out, it’s not too selective. Too many out there diluting your well articulated message with low-priority whining. Don’t be that, and I will listen to you all day and night. Works both ways.

     Reply

     1. look at that, a man blaming women for the actions of men, then telling us how to do our feminism. how original.

        Reply

        1. Honestly I’m not sure how productive your comments are? Well possibly productive if your trying to vent?? “Hint” global thinking vs practical thinking.

           After reading this article a couple of years ago, I’ve completely changed and I’ve been avoiding and ignoring all females (not Mum) and so I’m liturlly doing everything I can to do my bit. And thereford I’ve made myself the completely opposite of those males described in this article. Pretty sure responding to messages isn’t threatening to anyone??

           Reply

           1. So… what? The only options are treat women like meat, or ignore them? Ignoring them is literally everything we can do? I can’t help but feel like maybe there’s a middle ground there? Like, I don’t know, treat the women around us as human beings with opinions and hopes and such? Maybe I’m just being weird, thinking things like that are possible, but it makes a kind of sense to me.

              Reply

              1. I personally have never treated a female badly or done anything like what is described in this article, I am however very guilty of occasionally perving and although I never tried to make it obvious (due to the embassment of getting caught) I’m sure I was caught and now realize how my actions would of sent ripples of fear to through the victims I was looking at.

                 Obviously treating females like meat has never been an option, not even sure how come up with the thought with what and how I wrote the previous comment. In a attempt to help clarify myself, yes a middle ground would be great but there is no middle ground currently (takes the whole population to make this happen). So in the mean time while every single female is litturly terrified of males, the only option I have as one man is to avoid and ignore so I’m not seeing to be a threat. The only way I can think of showing respect as just one man.

              2. You idiot!!! We like been looked at, especially when we’ve dressed up in such a way to show off our assets.. The issues are if you’re old or ugly and you’re looking, that’s it!! Oh and just because we want to be noticed DOSE NOT MEAN WE WANT TO JUMP INTO BE WITH YOU.

                 I PERSONALLY find it extremely offensive that you choose to ignore us just because some stupid author couldn’t give a proper explanation, that a silly guy like yourself can understand. On how to act if you’re a single guy.

                 DO NOT READ ANYTHING MORE FROM THIS AUTHOR seems like she only knows how to explain this in a manor that only us lady’s can understand. Who knows what the world would come to if every guy read this?? I’D HAVE NO GUY TRYING TO GO OUT WITH ME, NO BOYFRIEND, NEVER GET MARRIED 😤

                 It’s ok to look, it’s ok to talk. Not ok to put us into a situation or hit on someone 5 years or more younger than you. If you come across a lady whos scared of you ITS NOT YOU FAULT if you haven’t done anything wrong, it’s her problem and you should just ignore it, Don’t read into it.

                 PS:

                 WE LIKE BEING LOOKED AT, TALKED TO AND TAKEN SERIOUSLY. If respectful…

     2. It happens in public when we are not hanging out with anyone! How many times as a 12/13 yr old did you get honked at or whistled at or had sexual comments shouted at you while just walking down the road to the train station. All this behaviour is normalised in our society and men do it thinking it is harmless, but it isn’t. The greatest tragedy is then women start to value ourselves based on how attractive we are to men.

        Reply

        1. Speak for yourself, I’ve always been worried about how good I look TO EVERYONE and it’s just really empowering having someone notice and appreciate the effort I put into making my self up. Its a FEMALE TRAIT stop passing the blame game.

           Reply

           1. Oh wow that is depressing Rosie, I am sorry to hear that if you are indeed really a female. You think by being sexually harassed someone is appreciating the effort you have put in to look attractive? You only have value if you are sexually desirable and get hooted or whooped at or grabbed by someone you don’t know? A man can’t find a way to approach a female he finds attractive in a more respectful and human way?

              Reply

              1. Did I say anything about being harassed, grabbed, hooted, whooped??? NO!!!

                 Back in your corner with you now, just saying

              2. I think the writer of the article is right, perhaps most men actually aren’t aware of how often it happens, and it isn’t just when a woman is dressed up to the nines. Women need to start talking to men about it, rather than just amongst ourselves. I can’t even count on my hands the number of times I have been harassed, grabbed, hooted and whooped at in my lifetime and I am not a women who spends hours and hours getting ready, I don’t wear makeup, I don’t wear fancy clothes. I just wear simple clothes and leave the house clean. I dread to think what happens when a woman actually does dress up to the nines!

              3. Guess I shouldn’t pass judgment on comments. Old people like my mum who’s now nearly 40 said it was a thing back in her day. So guessing it’s maybe a generational thing the old women had to deal with? Or a cultural thing? I’m Aussie, which given the details must be better than your country and so I must live in what is the best country in the world. Either way I haven’t had any issues, seems strange to me. Reckon I might have to venture out of Logan qld and see what the story is?

              4. OUCH, OLD people like your mom, who’s nearly 40????

              5. Realitivity!!! No reason to get offended???

              6. I am from the UK and this kind of behaviour is still really common there. : (. You must ask your mum what the women of her generation did to turn things around. I am in my early 30’s but I don’t think much has changed in the UK… : (. Actually now I live in a Muslim country and I haven’t been harassed, hooted or grabbed since living here. So I do accept there must be places it doesn’t happen. In the end the behaviour is learned and so it is cultural… and culture can be changed ….

              7. No you dont live in the best country. Happens there too please look into the statistics. This behaviour happens EVERYWHERE.

        2. Change in laws apparently

           Reply

           1. Interesting. We have the laws in the UK but nothing really happens when you report these kinds of things so most of the time women don’t report, unless it is something major like rape. There was an article on the BBC news not so long ago when a lady had been walking to work each day past a building site and they had been verbally harassing her. The harassment was so persistent in the end she did report it. The local news then picked it up and she was ridiculed. Everyone saying she was making a big deal over nothing etc etc. Thing is though it should be a big deal. Why should a woman have to put up with being spoken to and treated like she is a piece of meat when she is walking down the road on the way to work, minding her own business.

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598. Great piece, I love it!!

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599. So happy to read this. These are my thoughts exactly. Every word is true.

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600. I discovered whilst pregnant that all that shit stops once you have a baby bump. Occasionally a guy would try something or yell something but then get embarrassed and apologetic when they saw I was pregnant. Only one revolting weasel seriously propositioned me. “I’ve never fucked a pregnant chick before ! He said expectantly, like because I was single (my partner left me when I became pregnant) I should help him tick that off his bucket list.

     Of course I did the right thing and exercised and worked off the ‘baby weight’ after my son was born, but then it all came back. I even had a guy come and sit across from me in a train, whilst I was feeding my son, with his eyes traned on my covered breast area, hoping for a glimpse when I changed sides !

     I started to miss being pregnant and I started to eat whatever the hell I liked. I’m overweight and its bad for my health but as a rape survivor and a woman who has felt like a vagina on 2 legs since I was 12 years old, I will take all the “pig’ and “lazy fat c**t” comments and shouts any day. I NEVER get groped by men I don’t know and I’m mostly ignored. Not a good solution, I know that, and I was once indecently assaulted by someone I knew (an ex-lover who thought he was entitled) as a fat woman, but I am addicted to being ignored.

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601. This article is absolutely beautiful! ON. FREAKIN’. POINT! #reblogging

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602. But deep down you prob want chivalry. It’s out there.

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603. Smaller, weaker sex: how about fucking self-defense?

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604. This article changed my life. I loved it, thank you.

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605. This is certainly not the first time I’ve read, heard or been told of all the scenarios above and the feelings I get from it are the same each and every time. What the fuck is wrong with people? It’s not ok to treat people as property, or (for want of a better word) “meat”. The insults, the uninvited touch/grabbing, heck even deliberately following someone for no other reason than to put fear into them.
     I didn’t understand the mindset of men who do these things then, I still don’t know and I still don’t want to. If someone is uncomfortable then you’ve crossed a line, it could be that you’ve physically backed her into the corner of a club, room and her only way out is to duck under your arms to get away, but she doesn’t for fear of how you might be react, or place yourself in the only exit of a room, or deliberately invaded her personal space when there’s adequate seating elsewhere.

     You know what this is like?
     It’s like peeing the in the Gent’s, another bloke comes in and despite 10 other free urinals, he stands right next to you to pee, it’s not so much awkward as just a bit too creepy, you’re also pretty vulnerable due to have both hands occupied and you’re mid flow.

     Basically, if she looks uncomfortable, perhaps there’s a reason why, it might not even be you, some other chinless wonder might have harassed, catcalled, touched, or otherwise been a nasty little cocksplat. Whatever the reason, don’t take it personally, be a decent human being and give her space.

     If you want a girl that you can do anything to without complaint, resistance, or any major sense of wrongness, I suggest you get one that comes with an attachment for a bike pump.

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     1. Exactly the reason I pay no attention to females I don’t know, I’ve got no idea if I’ll make them feel uncomfortable. Best solution is ignore, no logical way why someone should feel uncomfortable with someone who doesn’t even realize they exist right? Best I can do to not inflict paranoia.

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        1. Pretty sure no one noticed you existed in the first place, which is probably why you reverted to harassment. Now realize what a dildo you are…
           thank you for keeping your seed out of the gene pool.

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           1. That’s a rather misogynistic way of thinking, so you truly believe woman can’t go out of there way to initiate a conversation or relationship with out without the man making the first move. Is this your way off manscaping consent for rape culture? Oh no women won’t do their job and make babies unless we continue doing what we do, despite all the comments here with them complaining about that behavior. Personally I think if a woman really want to get to know me, she will make a effort to go out of her way and introduce herself, no matter how much effort it takes. Women are idiots that just sit there and look pretty while hoping someone “picks them up”. Bet you go around with a baten like a cave man and knock them on the head then drag them to your cave no don’t you? Pretty sure women are sick of people like you not thinking they are capable of finding their own preferred partner WITHOUT being harrased into it by some over confident, rape culture loving guy.

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           2. You know, it’s men with your attitude that makes guys like me have to go to these extreme measures to help ensure women have some kind of quality of life by making sure we don’t make them uncomfortable around us. If it wasn’t for you lot, we could all get along just find without causing women to be terrified of us, for no other reason than just being male.

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606. Reblogged this on A Witch of a Woman.

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607. Reblogged this on Tanya Sharma .

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608. Amazon Net Companies is an Equal Opportunity Employer. http://www.ynwtbj.com/comment/html/?106553.html

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609. Go on lads, do the right thing and ignore all women. The author here has clearly stated that simply any interaction with men sends ripples of fear though most women. Let’s take this on and prove we aren’t a threat by paying no attention to women at all. And let’s face it, said women DO NOT give you consent to talk to them. If and only if they start a conversation, may you then talk back.

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